Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10



View Poll Results: Why are you still discussing Snape's character?
In order to vindicate him. 30 28.30%
In order to prevent others from vindicating him. 9 8.49%
Snape makes me do it! 34 32.08%
What do you mean with 'still'? Every argument here is shiny and new and nothing is solved! 30 28.30%
If I stop HP will be truly over! *clings* 33 31.13%
Something completely different. 20 18.87%
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SNAPISH INQUISITION! 50 47.17%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old February 18th, 2009, 2:51 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5355 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I feel that is where Eliza's point becomes relevant because people are going on to try to justify Snape's behavior based on what went on in that office and they haven't a clue. I opine Dumbledore was up there balling Snape out for his behavior with one of the children - or it may have been the scene where Snape was going on about Harry being mediocre and Dumbledore was all but dissing him by reading the paper which left him in that foul mood. But my guess is as good as anyone else's.
The speculation was started not to justify Snape's behavior, which does not require it. It was started because a poster on this thread wondered why Snape was in the office.

The scene with the paper has a known timeline which places it outside of GoF. Quirrell is still alive during that conversation. The conversation of "The Prince's Tale" that IS within the timeline of GoF (though it took place earlier, during the Yule Ball) is the one in which Severus announced his intention to return to Voldemort as a spy, mentioned Karkaroff's intention to flee, and Albus made the observation about Sorting too soon.

Incidentally, this scene with Harry and Snape that we are discussing, occurs very shortly after the scene in which Karkaroff comes to Potions class to discuss the Dark Mark with Snape, which produces a potential topic for discussion that we know the two of them have discussed in the past. Snape may, of course, have also taken the opportunity to grumble about Harry, who was eavesdropping in that Potions class.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
Sponsored Links
  #62  
Old February 18th, 2009, 2:58 pm
Kat_Suki's Avatar
Kat_Suki  Female.gif Kat_Suki is offline
Pernicious Blood Traitor
 
Joined: 4214 days
Location: ♥ JAPES Trysting Place
Posts: 1,101
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

I agree, zgirnius, there are times which appear in canon where Snape and Dumbledore have conversations within the Head's office and he could have been discussing anything with him. Additionally, not only is Snape a teacher at that school but he is also Dumbledore's spy and given that this was set a month prior to the final task they could have been, in some form, logistically planning things in that maze, the teachers who'd be patrolling it while the champions were in it, etc.


__________________
Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!



What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #63  
Old February 18th, 2009, 3:00 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5355 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
This, to me, makes no sense. If Snape believed Harry was telling the truth then he IMO should have sprang into action, especially knowing that a senior member of the Ministry, who'd been missing since March and hadn't been heard from since - he being the second one to go missing in a year BTW, was now suddenly making an appearance in May while raving like a loon in the Dark Forest.
We know that, having been with Harry in the Forest. Based on Harry's garbled account to Snape that included two incomplete statements even before Snape interrupted him, I am not convinced that Snape did. Also, what action should Snape have sprung into? What he actually did, was ask Harry for more information. This could definitely be because he was thinking of acting, but was not yet sure what action would be appropriate.

Personally, I see two reasonable courses of action once more is known about the circumstances - checking out Harry's story or taking it up to Albus. Snape was never going to do #2 just because Harry wanted it - he was going to have what HE considered a good reason. Jumping into #1 wihtout making sure #2 is called for would be a mistake, however.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #64  
Old February 18th, 2009, 3:02 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5216 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I have to say, I think that Snape did genuinely want to help, and knew Dumbledore was coming down anyway. But on the other hand, Harry was so panicky, I think Snape was really just enjoying stalling him until Dumbledore came down because it provoked Harry and made the boy go even more crazy.
So you feel Snape was lying by and through his words, 'what is this nonsense?' - indicating he didn't know what Harry was talking about. And further lying when he said 'Dumbledore is busy' knowing the man was coming down for some reason? Although it is unlikely Dumbledore was coming down to deal with Crouch because he had to have Harry explain it to him, imo.

However, that would be in line with Snape's previous behavior because he lied by ommission and undisclosed opinion to Harry quite frequently in order to rile him up and take enjoyment from his distress, imo, so that could have been the case here. Although to be honest, I felt the canon indicated that Snape truly didn't know what Harry was on about in this instance and was simply taking enjoyment from riling him up once he found out because he'd not yet come to fully appreciate saving those he could unless he'd promised to do so.


__________________
  #65  
Old February 18th, 2009, 3:12 pm
Kat_Suki's Avatar
Kat_Suki  Female.gif Kat_Suki is offline
Pernicious Blood Traitor
 
Joined: 4214 days
Location: ♥ JAPES Trysting Place
Posts: 1,101
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
We know that, having been with Harry in the Forest. Based on Harry's garbled account to Snape that included two incomplete statements even before Snape interrupted him, I am not convinced that Snape did. Also, what action should Snape have sprung into? What he actually did, was ask Harry for more information. This could definitely be because he was thinking of acting, but was not yet sure what action would be appropriate.
Either he believed him or he did not. Harry's explanation - while garbled - was not so bad as to not understand or to disregard. It wasn't enough to get him to investigate? Sure it was. To send for Dumbledore or another teacher? Sure it was. To be worried for Harry's safety should Harry blow him off in frustration and return to the Forest? Sure it was.
Quote:
Personally, I see two reasonable courses of action once more is known about the circumstances - checking out Harry's story or taking it up to Albus. Snape was never going to do #2 just because Harry wanted it - he was going to have what HE considered a good reason. Jumping into #1 wihtout making sure #2 is called for would be a mistake, however.
Well, that's my point, though. If Snape believed Harry then Snape was not seeking more information and he was completely in the wrong, as a teacher and as Dumbledore's agent, for his complete inaction with the given situation.

IMO, Snape didn't believe Harry's garbled story that Crouch was in the forest and that's why I don't have such an issue with his inaction. Why act on something you've discounted?


__________________
Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!



What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #66  
Old February 18th, 2009, 4:05 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4734 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
Sirius got in through the witch's hump, but once there he was very much 'Sirius' and not 'Padfoot' evidenced by the Fat Lady attack and his giving the password to Cadogan and then entering the boys dormitory to kill Peter-the-rat. To get out via the witch's hump he had to speak the incantation, which means he was still in human form. The Halloween attack on the Fat Lady was followed by new measures being put in place and Flitwick can be seen to be teaching the castle doors to recognize a picture of Black. Sorry, while Black snuck onto the grounds as Padfoot, he still got into and out of the castle as Sirius and there did not appear to be any massive spells that Dumbledore used to identify those intrusions. But again, Crouch didn't officially enter the grounds, he remained just on the cusp of the Forest.
Yes; Sirius changed once he was inside Hogwarts; but he must have enetered the School as an animagus; the wards are usually placed on the School boundaries and if he would be recognised or found out that's where it would have been. Barty Crouch met with Harry and Victor Krum a little away from Hagrid's Hut, which I think was inside the School wards.

GOF - The Dream"Of course,' said Moody taking a swig from his flask. "Took a leaf out of your book, Potter. Summoned it from my office into the Forest. He wasn't anywhere on there."

"So he did Disappparate?" said Ron.

"You can't disapparate in the grounds, Ron!" said Hermione. "There are other ways he could have disappeared, aren't thre, Professor?"

"You'rer another one who might think about a career as an Auror," he told her, "Mind works the right way Granger!"

---------------------

GOF - The Madness of Mr. Crouch

"Is there a problem?" he asked looking between Harry and snape.

"Professor!" Harry said, side-stepping Snape and before Snape could speak. "Mr. Crouch is herre - he's down in the Forest, he wants to speak to you!"

Harry expected Dumbledore to ask questions, but to his relief, Dumbledore did nothing of the sort. "Lead the way," he said promptly, and he swept off along the corridor behind Harry....
bold mine

I see it this way.

1. Crouch was inside the School and he must have crossed the wards, alerting Dumbledore, that someone had crossed into the School.

2. Harry comes running to tell Dumbeldore that Crouch wanted to see him and that he was waiting in the grounds.

3. Dumbledore comes down and agrees to go at once with Harry without asking any questions, until he and Harry set off and then it's to know what Harry knew.

4. So, I concluded, that Snape knew about the intruder from Dumbledore, and when Harry told him everything, he simply listened, not allowing him to go into the Head's office, because Dumbledore was coming down and Harry going up would waste more minutes.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #67  
Old February 18th, 2009, 5:07 pm
Kat_Suki's Avatar
Kat_Suki  Female.gif Kat_Suki is offline
Pernicious Blood Traitor
 
Joined: 4214 days
Location: ♥ JAPES Trysting Place
Posts: 1,101
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Yes; Sirius changed once he was inside Hogwarts; but he must have enetered the School as an animagus; the wards are usually placed on the School boundaries and if he would be recognised or found out that's where it would have been. Barty Crouch met with Harry and Victor Krum a little away from Hagrid's Hut, which I think was inside the School wards.
Actually, I think you're right, now that I think of it. I seem to recall the Imposter Moody using the map to watch Barty Sr enter the Hogwarts grounds. Yep, here's the quote:
Veritaserum, 690"For a week I waited for my father to arrive at Hogwarts. At last, one evening, the map showed my father entering the grounds."
Which begs the questions, of IF the protections had sounded, then:

Why did Snape blow off Harry's concern?
Why didn't any of the other teachers at the school "know" someone had entered the grounds?
Why were none of them addressing this issue?
Why was Dumbledore just strolling out of his office like he was on his way to a tupperware party?
Actually, make that why would the Headmaster be doing the task of the professors?
Why didn't Snape go on ahead?
Why didn't Snape accompany the Headmaster?
Where was the backup?
Where was the concern for the safety of the the denizens of the castle and its grounds?

That seems like a horrible dereliction of duty to me and thus makes Snape's and every other Hogwarts teacher {excepting Binns} behavior and lack of action that much worse under scrutiny.


__________________
Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!



What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #68  
Old February 18th, 2009, 6:13 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4734 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
Why did Snape blow off Harry's concern?
Because Dumbledore had taken charge IMO.

Quote:
Why didn't any of the other teachers at the school "know" someone had entered the grounds?
I think this could be because the wards would have been under Dumbledore's control as Headmaster and so, he would have known when someone entered the grounds. I don't think the other Professors would know the instant someone entered the grounds, because the wards may not have been under their control.

Quote:
Why were none of them addressing this issue?
I think it was because none of them knew.

Quote:
Why was Dumbledore just strolling out of his office like he was on his way to a tupperware party?
LOL! I think he came as quickly as he could.

Quote:
Actually, make that why would the Headmaster be doing the task of the professors?
I don't understand. The Headmaster has the control of the wards, I presume, and not all the teachers; so only he would know if someone had broken through those wards IMO.

Quote:
Why didn't Snape go on ahead?
It's the saame asnwer as above; I think it was because Dumbledore had taken charge.

Quote:
Why didn't Snape accompany the Headmaster?
I think it was because Dumbledore did not wish it.

Quote:
Where was the backup?
Dumbledore at that time had no reason to believe he or the School was under attack; he would have only known there was someone who entered the School; so he may have felt he need not have the backup; especially when Harry had come to call him, leaving Krum with that person right there.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #69  
Old February 18th, 2009, 6:45 pm
Kat_Suki's Avatar
Kat_Suki  Female.gif Kat_Suki is offline
Pernicious Blood Traitor
 
Joined: 4214 days
Location: ♥ JAPES Trysting Place
Posts: 1,101
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

I gotta disagree, The_Green_Woods.

I still do not believe that any alarms went off. I don't believe Dumbledore was coming down to address an intrusion. Frankly, protection of the castle and the grounds fall on the entire faculty, not just the Headmaster and if the Headmaster - who is often shown away from the castle/grounds itself - is to be believed as the only person who knows that someone's using a magical means of trespass onto the grounds....that's....well IMO, utterly useless, not to mention a completely ridiculous, form of protection. "Oops, the alarm's gone off and I'm in Gringotts. Oh well, someone is bound to notice something soon enough."

You know though, that in the Deathly Hallows we do see the teachers strengthening the protections and also fortifying new protections for the castle/grounds.

IF Snape had been aware of the magical intrusion, assuming an alarm went off and he was in Dumbledore's office when it did, upon learning from Harry that the intruder was the now deranged and long missing Ministry of Magic employee, Barty Crouch Senior, then Snape absolutely failed to address the issue. It doesn't matter if he thought or if he knew Dumbledore was on the way, he would still have failed to act considering the known dangers/concerns.
  • Bertha Jorkins went missing in Albania
  • Someone set off the Dark Mark at the World Quidditch Cup
  • Dumbledore's concern is such that he's gotten Mad Eye out of retirement
  • Someone snuck Harry's name into the Goblet of Fire, despite Dumbledore's protections, forcing him to compete in highly dangerous tasks
  • Barty Crouch Senior becomes ill and stops going to work; come March he is missing & no one sees hide nor hair of him since {until this incident}
  • Some unknown entity has penetrated Hogwarts defenses
The response to all of the above knowledge, if we're to believe Dumbledore already knew via an alarm, was a "let's tiptoe through the daisies as we slowly meander down the stairs as though we had not a care in the world" while "Snape stands around doing nothing", not even bothering to follow along as the Headmaster "walks Harry out the castle to confront the intruder"...?

I don't believe Dumbledore knew of an intruder or that Snape did either, until told so by Harry.


__________________
Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!



What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #70  
Old February 18th, 2009, 10:10 pm
CathyWeasley's Avatar
CathyWeasley  Female.gif CathyWeasley is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5311 days
Location: ...erm...
Age: 54
Posts: 2,455
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
Well that works until he does something like try to stop Harry's fall. Was he actually trying to cause it to happen? Or is it only appearances to the contrary when he is doing something seemingly wrongful?
I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here - Are you suggesting that there is any doubt that Snape was trying to stop Harry from falling from his broom? I think that is a very clear case of "appearances to the contrary"

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwb
In my view, there is no canon to suggest that Snape was behaving in a contrary manner at all times.
I do not think that anyone was suggesting that Snapes behaviour was always contrary to appearances. How ever the way Snape is written and in light of the revelations from DH and because of the nature of his character, it is prudent to throroughly examine each scene he is in and not take everything on face value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwb
To me, it is evident when he is supposed to be interpreted as behaving in a manner that is contrary to appearance.
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwb
For example when he spoke with Bella and Narcissa at Spinner's End. One has to read that in terms of DH because it concerned his dual position as a spy. But here in the hallway with no one around but him and Harry, there is no reason he cannot tell Harry he will inform Dumbledore immediately or see to the matter himself. And there is no reason for inaction either, imo.
But there is also no reason to assume that once Harry is out of the picture that Snape will not tell Dumbledore or do something about the situation himself.

Snape is a bully and a control freak. He enjoys having the power to deny Harry and seeing Harry panic and squirm. However that does not mean that he is not concerned about what Harry has told him and will do nothing. In fact I would say that it is very in character for Snape to belittle and dismiss Harry then scurry off to assist behind the scenes (e.g.In PoA Snape is horrible to Lupin, but he still brews the Wolfsbane potion for him every month.) We see this repeatedly with Snape. Just because he isn't nice does not mean that he doesn't get things done that require doing. Nor does it mean that he does not care. He is afterall the man who definitely does not where his heart on his sleeve, so one cannot expect his emotions to be obvious.

In a way his character is in contrast to Lockhart, who is handsome and nice and appears to be a hero, but in fact is a liar and a cheat and a complete coward.


__________________




Even if everyone hates him for it, that's the sacrifice he's making. He's not being the hero. He's being something more.

He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.


Pottermore name: FlightMoonstone199

On CoS I'm in On Pottermore I'm in Maple and Unicorn, Thirteen and Three Quarter inches, Pliant

My Fanfic - Snape's Happy Ending


Avatar by Ben when he was 5- he's now 13!
  #71  
Old February 18th, 2009, 10:23 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5355 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
In fact I would say that it is very in character for Snape to belittle and dismiss Harry then scurry off to assist behind the scenes (e.g.In PoA Snape is horrible to Lupin, but he still brews the Wolfsbane potion for him every month.) We see this repeatedly with Snape. Just because he isn't nice does not mean that he doesn't get things done that require doing. Nor does it mean that he does not care.
OotP'I have no idea,' said Snape coldly. 'Potter, when 1 want nonsense shouted at me I shall give you a Babbling Beverage.'


Said on his way to verify that Sirius Black is safe at 12 GP.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #72  
Old February 18th, 2009, 11:50 pm
Kat_Suki's Avatar
Kat_Suki  Female.gif Kat_Suki is offline
Pernicious Blood Traitor
 
Joined: 4214 days
Location: ♥ JAPES Trysting Place
Posts: 1,101
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
In fact I would say that it is very in character for Snape to belittle and dismiss Harry then scurry off to assist behind the scenes.
Yet in this instance, he did not. So what was his reasoning behind his inaction after he successfully delayed Harry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
In a way his character is in contrast to Lockhart, who is handsome and nice and appears to be a hero, but in fact is a liar and a cheat and a complete coward.
Nice compare/contrast.


__________________
Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!



What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #73  
Old February 19th, 2009, 12:05 am
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5355 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
Yet in this instance, he did not. So what was his reasoning behind his inaction after he successfully delayed Harry?
None. He did not have time to scurry off, Albus showed up and took over instead.

I disagree he delayed Harry. His intervention got Harry to ALbus faster. If he had stayed out of it, Harry would have run off to the staff room, where Albus wasn't. This is what Harry was in the process of doing when Snape called him back.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #74  
Old February 19th, 2009, 12:15 am
Pearl_Took's Avatar
Pearl_Took  Female.gif Pearl_Took is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 4504 days
Location: The Shire
Posts: 3,634
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Good heavens, four pages in and we're still all on the same scene in GoF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
In my view, there is no canon to suggest that Snape was behaving in a contrary manner at all times.
And I would like to point out that I never claimed any such thing.

I have no qualms about calling Snape's behaviour to Harry obnoxious. He has no call to needle the kid like this.

What I do dispute is the assumption that Snape had no interest in helping a stricken man. I don't think we can necessarily draw that conclusion. Especially with what we now know about Snape with hindsight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
Snape is a bully and a control freak. He enjoys having the power to deny Harry and seeing Harry panic and squirm. However that does not mean that he is not concerned about what Harry has told him and will do nothing. In fact I would say that it is very in character for Snape to belittle and dismiss Harry then scurry off to assist behind the scenes (e.g.In PoA Snape is horrible to Lupin, but he still brews the Wolfsbane potion for him every month.) We see this repeatedly with Snape. Just because he isn't nice does not mean that he doesn't get things done that require doing. Nor does it mean that he does not care. He is afterall the man who definitely does not where his heart on his sleeve, so one cannot expect his emotions to be obvious.


Quote:
In a way his character is in contrast to Lockhart, who is handsome and nice and appears to be a hero, but in fact is a liar and a cheat and a complete coward.
Oh, I thought that immediately of that contrast when I read CoS. Although it's obvious that Lockhart is vain and shallow from the get-go, we don't realise he has a really nasty side until the very end of the book. Snape never bothers to be nice to anyone or at least very few people (Albus, Minerva and Narcissa are among the very few exceptions!) but underneath he's working for the good.

I know who I prefer.


__________________

Last edited by Pearl_Took; February 19th, 2009 at 12:25 am.
  #75  
Old February 19th, 2009, 1:43 am
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5216 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here - Are you suggesting that there is any doubt that Snape was trying to stop Harry from falling from his broom? I think that is a very clear case of "appearances to the contrary"
Nah, this was in answer to a statement by someone else which has since been corrected to my understanding. So just ignore it - 3 layers of misunderstanding. .

Quote:
I do not think that anyone was suggesting that Snapes behaviour was always contrary to appearances. How ever the way Snape is written and in light of the revelations from DH and because of the nature of his character, it is prudent to throroughly examine each scene he is in and not take everything on face value.
I agree with some scenes, I just don't agree with the fundamental position that Snape had to behave in a contrary to appearances manner when he was alone with Harry - the Order members or the kids in general.

Quote:
Really?
Yah. I've never had a problem with that.

Quote:
But there is also no reason to assume that once Harry is out of the picture that Snape will not tell Dumbledore or do something about the situation himself.
Why do you feel Harry had to be out of the picture? He already knew all about it.

Quote:
Snape is a bully and a control freak. He enjoys having the power to deny Harry and seeing Harry panic and squirm. However that does not mean that he is not concerned about what Harry has told him and will do nothing. In fact I would say that it is very in character for Snape to belittle and dismiss Harry then scurry off to assist behind the scenes (e.g.In PoA Snape is horrible to Lupin, but he still brews the Wolfsbane potion for him every month.)
I agree, but after that he declared he was going to have Lupin kissed, then disclosed his secret to his students in the same book. So if I note the totality of the circumstances, Snape's overall behavior was not assistive, imo. In light of DH, none of that changes, imo, however, there is added information. At some point what I feel we have is a change in Snape. I believe he recognized what his past action had rendered and he also came to feel that those innocents he could save he should - including those he dislikes. So he attempted to save Lupin.

I think the question comes doewn to: when did that change take place in Snape? I suppose all readers would have a differing idea about that. Some have suggested it was instant on the hill, others feel it took several years, others even longer and it has even been suggested that he was being untruthful and never changed. I am among the group that feels it took a while, as changing viewpoints and outlooks that relate to self-identity often do. So to me, in the GoF scene, it is possible Snape had not yet completed his transformation of thought yet. I feel that his first meeting with Voldemort in person may have acted as the trigger, securing his beliefs in that regard. But admittedly that is pure speculation.

Quote:
We see this repeatedly with Snape. Just because he isn't nice does not mean that he doesn't get things done that require doing. Nor does it mean that he does not care. He is afterall the man who definitely does not where his heart on his sleeve, so one cannot expect his emotions to be obvious.
I feel that is true, but his response in this scene was inaction at the time Harry told him a man was sick in the dangerous forest and so that is what led me to believe that Snape had likely not quite completed his transformation yet.

Quote:
In a way his character is in contrast to Lockhart, who is handsome and nice and appears to be a hero, but in fact is a liar and a cheat and a complete coward.
Snape was also a liar, and quite a good one, and too had his moments of cowardice, imo. But I don't think he was a cheat and I am not sure how Lockheart was either. Do you mean in selling the books? They were entertaining with nice pictures of him that people liked, so he was lying, but he gave them product for their money, so I don't feel that one could say that he cheated them. But like Snape, Lockheart was on the good side, so I don't really see all that much difference between them. They were both problematic characters on the good side, but simply faced distinct difficulties.


__________________
  #76  
Old February 19th, 2009, 2:35 am
Kat_Suki's Avatar
Kat_Suki  Female.gif Kat_Suki is offline
Pernicious Blood Traitor
 
Joined: 4214 days
Location: ♥ JAPES Trysting Place
Posts: 1,101
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
None. He did not have time to scurry off, Albus showed up and took over instead.
And after that Snape did.....?

Quote:
I disagree he delayed Harry. His intervention got Harry to ALbus faster. If he had stayed out of it, Harry would have run off to the staff room, where Albus wasn't. This is what Harry was in the process of doing when Snape called him back.
He called him back, yeah...and then he delayed him, he got his answers and still would not allow Harry access. For whatever reason, and I personally believe it was because Dumbledore was doing something, but there is no denying that Snape didn't (and wasn't going) to send Harry up to Dumbledore. That is 'delaying'.


__________________
Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!



What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #77  
Old February 19th, 2009, 3:23 am
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5216 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
OotP'I have no idea,' said Snape coldly. 'Potter, when 1 want nonsense shouted at me I shall give you a Babbling Beverage.'


Said on his way to verify that Sirius Black is safe at 12 GP.
OOTP "Wash out your mouth," said James coldly. "Scourgify!" Pink soap bubbles streamed from Snape's mouth at once...


He was giving Snape a babbling beverage of sorts at Hogwarts for swearing.

DH "Let me? Let me?" Lily's bright green eyes were slits.


Then Snape did truly begin to babble incoherently.

I think JKR was making the babbling idea a repetitive theme with Snape.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
And after that Snape did.....?

He called him back, yeah...and then he delayed him, he got his answers and still would not allow Harry access. For whatever reason, and I personally believe it was because Dumbledore was doing something, but there is no denying that Snape didn't (and wasn't going) to send Harry up to Dumbledore. That is 'delaying'.
I don't think Snape believed Dumbledore was coming downstairs. There is no canon to indicate that was the case. I believe he came because of the conflict going on belowstairs.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; February 19th, 2009 at 6:24 am.
  #78  
Old February 19th, 2009, 4:39 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4734 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
I gotta disagree, The_Green_Woods.

I still do not believe that any alarms went off. I don't believe Dumbledore was coming down to address an intrusion. Frankly, protection of the castle and the grounds fall on the entire faculty, not just the Headmaster and if the Headmaster - who is often shown away from the castle/grounds itself - is to be believed as the only person who knows that someone's using a magical means of trespass onto the grounds....that's....well IMO, utterly useless, not to mention a completely ridiculous, form of protection. "Oops, the alarm's gone off and I'm in Gringotts. Oh well, someone is bound to notice something soon enough."
Protection of the castle fall on the entire faculty, but I think the wards surrounding the castle would be held by the Headmaster. While I don't have explicit cannon on this, I have a comparison of sorts. In PS/SS, Dumbledore was on his way to the MInistry, the night Quirrell went for the Stone, when "suddenly" he told Harry, "he felt he had to be back in the castle, specifically where the Stone was" (not the exact words); all the Professors had cast their protections and set their challenges, but McGonagall, did not even believe it or knew when her challenge had already been broken once by Quirrell and second by the Trio.

Neither did Sprout, Flitwick or Snape. But Dumbledore knew something was wrong, probably the moment Quirrell tried to get the Stone or walked into the room where the Stone was held. I think this was like that.

Quote:
You know though, that in the Deathly Hallows we do see the teachers strengthening the protections and also fortifying new protections for the castle/grounds.
Same answer as above. Professors can cast strengthening charms and other spells, but I don't think all of them would be in a position to know when someone would come in IMO.

Quote:
IF Snape had been aware of the magical intrusion, assuming an alarm went off and he was in Dumbledore's office when it did, upon learning from Harry that the intruder was the now deranged and long missing Ministry of Magic employee, Barty Crouch Senior, then Snape absolutely failed to address the issue. It doesn't matter if he thought or if he knew Dumbledore was on the way, he would still have failed to act considering the known dangers/concerns.
You would have been correct, had Dumbledore been busy with other things and had Dumbledore known it was Barty Crouch who had come into the School and if Dumbeldore had instructed Snape to go on first and take a look.

None of those things happened IMO. Snape was followed by Dumbledore within a minute and the way Snape was left standing, without asking any question and without an explanation by Dumbledore, makes me feel that Dumbledore had assumed charge and I really don't think anyone in the School could disobey Dumbledore, least of all Snape.

Quote:
  • Bertha Jorkins went missing in Albania
  • Someone set off the Dark Mark at the World Quidditch Cup
  • Dumbledore's concern is such that he's gotten Mad Eye out of retirement
  • Someone snuck Harry's name into the Goblet of Fire, despite Dumbledore's protections, forcing him to compete in highly dangerous tasks
  • Barty Crouch Senior becomes ill and stops going to work; come March he is missing & no one sees hide nor hair of him since {until this incident}
  • Some unknown entity has penetrated Hogwarts defenses
That is why I think Dumbledore had those wards alerting him of any intruder in the first place IMO.

Quote:
I don't believe Dumbledore knew of an intruder or that Snape did either, until told so by Harry.
GOF"Professor!" Harry said, sidestepping Snape before Snape could speak, "Mr. Crouch is here - he's down in the forest, he wants to speak to you!"

Harry expected Dumbledore to ask questions, but to his relief, Dumbledore did nothing of the sort.

"Lead the way," he said promptly, and he swept off along the corridor behind Harry, leaving Snape standing next to the gargoyle and looking twice as ugly.
bold mine

As I wrote before, the bolded words make me feel Dumbledore did know; perhaps he did not know who it was, but he must have known someone had copme into Hogwarts, just like he knew halfway through his journey to the Ministry (?) in PS/SS that he should have been back in Hogwarts IMO.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #79  
Old February 19th, 2009, 7:36 am
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 5408 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,039
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Good heavens, four pages in and we're still all on the same scene in GoF.
Oi, it's the first time any of my opening post scenes kicked off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I agree, but after that he declared he was going to have Lupin kissed
See, this is why fandom is bad for you. It took me at least 20 seconds to understand the proper meaning of this line.

Okay, this was me being random...carry on. I'll iron my hands behind the scenes now.


  #80  
Old February 19th, 2009, 10:01 am
Pearl_Took's Avatar
Pearl_Took  Female.gif Pearl_Took is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 4504 days
Location: The Shire
Posts: 3,634
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Nah, this was in answer to a statement by someone else which has since been corrected to my understanding. So just ignore it - 3 layers of misunderstanding. .
Fine, no problem.

Quote:
I agree with some scenes, I just don't agree with the fundamental position that Snape had to behave in a contrary to appearances manner when he was alone with Harry - the Order members or the kids in general.
Well, I don't agree with that either. I'm firmly in the camp that believes Snape's issues with Harry were genuine and personal, that he forever saw the boy through his own distorted 'James filter'. I absolutely don't believe, from what we are shown in the text, that his treatment of Harry was only for the benefit of watching Slytherins.

I also firmly believe that despite his personal dislike of the boy, he really was committed to protecting Harry from Voldemort and obeying Albus's orders.

That is the conundrum of Snape!

Quote:
I think the question comes down to: when did that change take place in Snape? I suppose all readers would have a differing idea about that. Some have suggested it was instant on the hill, others feel it took several years, others even longer and it has even been suggested that he was being untruthful and never changed. I am among the group that feels it took a while, as changing viewpoints and outlooks that relate to self-identity often do. So to me, in the GoF scene, it is possible Snape had not yet completed his transformation of thought yet. I feel that his first meeting with Voldemort in person may have acted as the trigger, securing his beliefs in that regard. But admittedly that is pure speculation.
People are complicated. It is more likely that his transformation was gradual. (It is also imperfect, I would say, until the very moment of his death.) I don't see Severus as having a 'Saul of Damascus' sudden type conversion. I think it was Cathy_Weasley who said that the scene on the hill, where he comes to Albus in desperation to tell him that Lily and her family have been targeted for murder, acted as a catalyst, and I agree with that.

In terms of his actual character change, I would say that was long and difficult. Unwisely, he hangs onto his ancient grudge against James, which I guess was activated the moment he first set eyes on Harry. But I think his overall ethics did change, albeit slowly and painfully: he had more work to do on his Harry-issues, clearly. He's a very damaged and bitter man. But we certainly see that he no longer believed in the ethnic cleansing of Muggleborns. And we see that he didn't find it pleasant having to watch innocent victims of Voldemort (like Charity Burbage) die.

I don't think he ever changed his belief that Slytherin was a superior House to Gryffindor.

Quote:
But like Snape, Lockheart was on the good side, so I don't really see all that much difference between them. They were both problematic characters on the good side, but simply faced distinct difficulties.
I see a considerable difference. Lockhart is proved to be a coward, whereas Snape is 'probably the bravest man that Harry ever knew'.

I'm not sure I would say Lockhart was on the good side either. Just because someone doesn't believe in racist genocide doesn't automatically make them a good person.

I don't really believe Snape is that good a person either, I hasten to add certainly not for most of his life. He's certainly not a nice person. I just prefer him to Lockhart. Especially as he does more than Lockhart ever does in the fight against Voldemort, IMO: I refer of course to his dangerous job as double agent, which Harry himself fully acknowledges by the end of DH.

As I say, Snape is a conundrum, a puzzle ... and JKR's most memorable character, IMO.


__________________
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks

Tags
character analysis, severus snape


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 9:06 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.