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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9



View Poll Results: What kind of pet should Severus have gotten?
A doggy! It would have loved him and licked his face! 34 19.43%
A kitty! It would have ignored him. 41 23.43%
A bat! Because bats are kinda cool? 28 16.00%
An owl! Because mail is good 21 12.00%
A rat! Nevermind rats are lame 3 1.71%
A snake! Nagini would never eat a snake lover 15 8.57%
I don't think Snape would have liked a pet 68 38.86%
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  #41  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 8:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
The Patronus is support. What I see as proof is,
DH, The Prince's Tale"But this is touching, Severus. Have you grown to care for the boy after all?"
"For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!"

To me, Snape seemed repulsed by Dumbledore's thought that he had "grown to care for" Harry.
That can be further supported by the fact that "him" is italicized in the text.


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  #42  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 8:16 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Harry was not just Lily's son. He was also James. Snape did not protect just Lily's, he protected James's too IMO. That is something I think no one can deny IMO.
First, as no one has pointed out to me; nor can I find any real "protection" Snape did in canon in my view, I would disagree that Snape actually had to put forth any more effort toward protecting Harry than he did for anyone else. He tried to slow Harry's broom, but I am guessing he would do so for any student (like finding a cure for Katie). He was on patrol, so he caught Harry out and scolded him. These things are not pointedly protecting Harry, they are a part of his everyday duties, imo. The only way Snape really assisted to protect Harry was through his work with the Order, spying and that was very brave to Harry (DH Epilogue). I never saw the bravery involved, but I will take JKR's word for it.

So considering Snape did so little actual active protecting of Harry, there was no real chore for him in that regard, imo. That is, he did not follow Harry's every step; he did not step in when Harry was in danger in the chamber of secrets, with the multiheaded beast, or at the MOM. Sure, Snape put forth efforts as if he was going to assist - but like when he went to the Shack to do so, his personal need for vengence took over and Harry ended up attacking him to protect himself and Lupin/Sirius. When Snape tried to give Occlucmency lessons that would protect; his behavior was so negative, Harry was left feeling like Snape was actually working for Voldemort at the task and Snape cut the lessons off despite their grave importance - then attacked Harry himself (OOTP SWM). In HBP, Flight of the Prince, he called off the Death Eaters, then attacked Harry himself. So even at those times Snape put forth effort, his behavior and acts got in the way and generally I believe it was Harry who required protection from Snape.

Snape made a promise to protect Harry, but he didn't keep it in my opinion and he was never around when Harry truly needed protection - and when he was around, he dropped the ball as I explained above. So I don't buy the argument that Snape actually protected Harry for Lily. In my judgment, he mistreated Harry and behaved in a cruel, abusive and bullying manner toward Harry and offered no real protection outside of spying to help the Order which indirectly helped to protect Harry (like everyone else, imo).

Snape did not put aside his hatred for James in my view, instead he seemed to put it before his emotions for Lily, otherwise, imo, he would have behaved in a much more positive manner toward her beloved son. Snape was never kind or thoughtful toward Harry to my memory, not in one single instance; At most, Snape behaved with silent disdain in a few moments, but for the most part, I believe he behaved in an aggressively negative manner toward Harry - as if they were school mate enemies rather than professor and student, imo.

To me there is no doubt that Snape did not care for or about Harry, he didn't like him in any way shape or form. I disagree that Snape could have seen anything of Lily in Harry except her eyes because I never did either - Snape saw James, so did I, so did numerous people who told Harry he was just like his father and also that he looked like him. But Snape's response to that was wrongful in my judgment because Harry wasn't James. Thus, I feel Snape's behavior was unfair toward Harry in addition to all of his acts and his behavior that arose from him loathing the child, imo, for the most part - although over time, I do believe Snape came to dislike Harry to some degree for who he was, because indeed he had so much in common with James. But a lot of that was unfair too; for example disliking James and Harry for being Quidditch heros, or James for winning Lily's love and like things. But both father and son had a problem with arrogance, Harry less, imo, and both were rule breakers, so Snape may have legitimately disliked them for that and like attributes. (Note from a character analysis standpoint, I feel Snape was being hypocritical in that regard because I feel he behaved in a very arrogant manner as well (all books) and was shown not to have been above breaking rules when he was in school. DH TPT/OOTP SWM)


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  #43  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 8:55 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I cannot agree. In The Prince's Tale, Snape scorns Dumbledore for believing he cared for Harry and immediately corrected Dumbledore's impression by showing Dumbledore his Patronus. Severus cared for Lily and protected Harry for her, but always despised Harry.
Are you suggesting that if he cared about Harry, his Patronus would be something else? This seems irrelevant, to me. The form of his Patronus proves exactly one thing - He still loved Lily.


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  #44  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 9:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Are you suggesting that if he cared about Harry, his Patronus would be something else? This seems irrelevant, to me. The form of his Patronus proves exactly one thing - He still loved Lily.
But Snape also says before, "For him?", which I don't think is irrevelent to Dumbledore's question. Personally, I believe JKR when she says Snape hated Harry until his dying day - I can't find anything in canon that contradicts that, just a lot that enforces it.


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  #45  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 9:14 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Are you suggesting that if he cared about Harry, his Patronus would be something else? This seems irrelevant, to me. The form of his Patronus proves exactly one thing - He still loved Lily.
I also thought that his Patronus proved another thing- he had agreed to try to protect Harry for Lily, not for himself. Echoing what wwb said, I don't think Snape cared one bit for Harry. And the way Snape says "For him?" makes it seem like the idea was insulting to him.


  #46  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 9:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
I also thought that his Patronus proved another thing- he had agreed to try to protect Harry for Lily, not for himself. Echoing what wwb said, I don't think Snape cared one bit for Harry. And the way Snape says "For him?" makes it seem like the idea was insulting to him.
I agree, I don't think Snape cared for Harry at all. He was just protecting him because he was Lily's son, that's all. He loved Lily with all his heart and Lily wouldn't like it one bit if Snape had just left Harry alone especially in a time of danger. Even though Lily and Snape had stopped being friends, I still don't think Lily would like that. I'm starting to think this discussion should be held in the Snape and Lily Character Analysis.

DH, I thought you hated Snape.


  #47  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 9:39 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

First of all, Snape knew that Harry HAD to go through things, many times alone. Not even Dumbledore was always around when Harry needed him, so does that mean Dumbledore didn't care for Harry??

I don't know about you, but I don't think that Snape was calling Harry weak to make him feel bad, he was calling him weak to prove to him that even though Voldemort was only a human, he was a very very powerful wizard and that had abilities to control Harry himself. I would also bet he did it to get Harry angry, anger is a stong emotion, it would help Harry with the energy provided. And Harry was also at fault, he never liked Snape from the get go either and was just as stubborn as Snape was in a lot of ways.

Also remember that in the Sourcer's Stone, Snape was the one that saved Harry when Quirrel was trying to kill him during the game. Snape did keep an eye on them, and probably sent information to Dumbledore LONG before Hermoine and Ron would have shown up since he was one of the first that realized what the Trio was getting ready to do.

Personally the way Snape was to Harry is how I am with some close friends that very popular to a lot of people, knock them down a bit...bring them to earth. In the ww Harry was seen as completely different then in the muggle world, and from day one Snape didn't have any problems of reminding him he was just like everyone else.

I would have loved to have a teacher like Snape personally, I like his style (even if he wasn't always fair).

Silver Faery


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  #48  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 9:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by silverfaery333 View Post
Personally the way Snape was to Harry is how I am with some close friends that very popular to a lot of people, knock them down a bit...bring them to earth. In the ww Harry was seen as completely different then in the muggle world, and from day one Snape didn't have any problems of reminding him he was just like everyone else.
I would have to respectfully disagree. Snape didn't knock Harry down to earth a bit; he literally shoved him with all of his might to the floor in anger (OOTP) and struck him with a whip like something in the face, knocking him to the ground another time (HBP). I feel Snape was behaving in a physically abusive manner in these scenes and I think the words 'knocked him down a bit' is mischaracterizing it as something not nearly as bad as it was. In addition, Snape belittled Harry and his dead father, and doing that to an orphan is wrongful in my opinion and extraordinarily hurtful. I felt it was additionally wrongful of Snape in particular because he helped kill Harry's father. In my view, treating Harry (and other Gryffindors) unfairly, cruelly and in a bullying manner was not an effective or appropriate means of teaching them anything.

I do agree with you that Snape wanted Harry to feel that he was of no particular worth (like everyone else) - but that was not the truth. He was of particular worth as the only one who could bring down Voldemort which Snape knew as of HBP - but he mistreated him anyway, imo. Prior to that, Harry was special because he was hunted by Voldemort and Snape knew that too - but still he felt Harry should not be seen as special. Luckily some people like Molly, Lupin, Sirius and his friends did see Harry as special and understood that he faced numerous hardships and poor treatment by Snape, the Dursleys and others like Umbridge, etc. - and they compensated for that to some degree. However, I feel Snape's point of view on this was entirely wrong because Harry was special and he deserved to be treated as such by all good siders who knew the burdens he faced.


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  #49  
Old August 24th, 2008, 6:18 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

  • Do you interpret this scene differently after DH? Not really. Except I see that Snape realized his
  • What does the look in Snape's eyes mean in your opinion? [QUOTE]Snape had not yelled or jumped backward, but the look on his face was one of mingled fury and horror.[/QUOTE] He can't that Sirius Black is allowed this close to Harry. To Snape, it's like a serial killer being allowed to roam free with the Police standing by doing nothing but having a friendly chat with him!! To Snape, Sirius was always able to slink away from trouble with his tail under his legs. If he was never held accountable for previous actions against Snape, then I personally don't blame him if he thought "OMG, you're actually going to stand there and let Black chit chat with Potter as if nothing happened." I still think he still sees Sirius as that Teenage Boy who singled him to torment and humiliate him.
    Quote:
    Very slowly - but still glaring at each other as though each wished the other nothing but ill - Sirius and Snape moved toward each other and shook hands. They let go extremely quickly.
    We call can look back on our Childhood and say "Oh, I hated that person." They still hate each other and would rather trip the other and kick him while down than shake hands with them. They both have that "Snape/Sirius doesn't wash his hands after using the washroom. I'm not shaking hands with him. Ew! I'd rather shake hands with Stinky Malone. Have me hold a fist full of worms, anything but this." I also think he sees shaking hands with Sirius Black as a sign of weakness, that he was wrong. Dumbledore did treat them like a couple of Children who got into a fight over a ball. This also usually meant both Children had to admit they were wrong and apologize to the other kid. [QUOTE]He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.[/QUOTE] The way I see it is like this: Snape realizes his game is over. He's been able to live at Hogwarts and go about his daily life care free. Now his greatest fear and nightmare has come true. Dispite his belief that Voldemort was vanquished, went up in a pile of ashes, he is back to life angrier, meaner and stronger than ever. With Harry's blood pumping in him, he seems virtually immortal. Before this, Snape could live life and not worry about being caught. Ok, there might have been rumours and the threat of being discovered, but honestly, other than being Death Eaters, none of them were really a threat to Severus. As long as Voldemort was less than human, living off others, Snape could live virtually care free. Now, he realizes his carefree days are gone. He realizes that if he's not caught a first, it will only be time before he's caught in a lie, Voldemort will become tired of him, or his use for him will end. When that does, Snape realizes he'll be killed. Basically, I think this was the first time he showed any amount of fear.
    Do you think that the handshake was more than an empty gesture? Hmm, no.
Old and new study questions:
  1. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews? Yes, I agree with Rowling's take of Snape's Character.
  2. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? NO, I think he would have tried to make amends with her and have been unsuccessful. That would have been a double blow to himWould he have turned to the good side in that case? I believe so.
  3. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius. It solidified my belief in him and that there was more to the two stories. IMO, it made him seem more of a hero.
  4. Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater? After yearss of being bullied at school and the likely victim of Abuse, even indirectly made him an angry, impressionable young man. Voldemort fed off Snape's desire for vengeance, power and recognition.
  5. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series? I still think it's inexcusable, but I understand that through Harry, he gets vengeance at James. Remember, when he saw Harry, he saw James. He saw that kid who made his life a living he@@. Everytime he belittled Harry, he was getting back at James. As for Neville, maybe he sees some of himself in Neville. Throughout the entire series, Neville was this soft spoken, "weak" person who let people, including his Grand Mother walk all over him, humiliate him. He hardly stood up to people and when he did, he always seemed to wonder if he was doing the right thing. In a way, he was like Snape in that he was bullied. I honestly believe Snape thought he was weak for "allowing" or "letting" other people bully him. Even though it's not true, many Men believe that a Boy should be able to fight back, attack his aggressors and make them back off. If you're unable to do so, you're weak and less of a man.
  6. What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy? It made him seem more human, more compassionate and it was clear he realized he was responsible and wrong for running to Voldemort and wanted to make amends for what he did.
  7. What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character? OMG, that was gut wrenching. Watching him reduced to tears, mentally unavailable to Albus was something I thought I'd never see. To see him still affected by her death 15 years later showed how much Snape could love and how he was affected by Lily and her compassion and caring for him.
  8. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? His Loyalty, honesty, intelligence and logic.What are his major flaws? The fact he never got over that grudge he felt for James Potter and Sirius Black. While I completely understand not feeling anything but loathing for the person who made your life a living he@# as a Child, I don't believe you pass it on to their Child. He/she is the innocent. They didn't do anything to you.
  9. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry? In some ways, yes. I think deep down, Snape realized Harry was NOT James and was really more like Lily.
  10. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him? Albus was the Father Figure for Snape. He was honest with Severus, read him the riot act when he deserved it and kept private conversations and revelations confidential. He also never made Snape feel ashamed for showing the emotions a real Man feels. He never mocked Snape for shedding tears over Lily's death and holding on to her memory and his personal promise to her.
  11. Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? To be completely honest, yes I do. He would have been the prime and solitary target of bullying in any other house. He also set a great example for future Students on why you shouldn't pass judgement on people based on the House they're sorted into, what the rumour mill says. Plus, I also believe he gave the Slytherin House someone to look up to. Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere? Probably, but I think he would have been more he#% bent and determined to "show them" not to mess with him if he was the only Student into Dark Arts, supportive of Voldemort, etc.
  12. There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? The fact he willingly risked his hyde every time he went to see Voldemort. Ok, I realized he could have said "No" and risk being kicked out of Hogwarts, but he never hesitated, always went alone and if that's not bravery, I don't know what is. He also put up with people and Parents looking at him sideways, wondering if he was "safe", etc. Then also putting up with the hatred of his fellow Death Eaters without retaliating. Ok, he did with Bellatrix, but I honestly believe this wasn't out of the ordinary for anyone dealing with her. In what sense is he a hero? The fact that he went into the Shrieking Shack to speak to Volemort, and didn't try to make a run for it. I still get chills down my spine reading that scene. Remember, he was nearly killed by Lupin's Werewolf as a Student. This time, he had no one to come to his rescue. The fact he didn't reveal Harry was there the entire time was heroic. Ok, I know the Cloak is inpentrable, but I believe he sensed Harry's presence. They were both looking at the acquarium Nagini was locked in. I honestly believe he could "see" or "feel" Lily's eyes watching him.


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  #50  
Old August 24th, 2008, 2:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
I felt it was additionally wrongful of Snape in particular because he helped kill Harry's father.
Hmmm, I only remember Voldemort being at Godric's Hollow in DH. James answered the door and ZaP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
So considering Snape did so little actual active protecting of Harry, there was no real chore for him in that regard, imo. That is, he did not follow Harry's every step; he did not step in when Harry was in danger in the chamber of secrets
Snape couldn't get in to the Chamber because he wasn't a Parselmouth, and he didn't know where it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
or at the MOM.
Snape is the one who contacted the Order twice the night that Harry went to the DoM. Once to make sure that Sirius was all right, and secondly when Snape became "worried" about Harry according to Dumbledore. That is when the Order members agreed to go to the Dept. of Mysteries.

So Harry had plenty of back-up without Snape being there.

Snape could hardly go there and still keep his cover. If he had fought on the side of the Order that night, he wouldn't have been around in HBP to save Dumbledore from the Hand-Crux, and Harry from the Death Eaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
Sure, Snape put forth efforts as if he was going to assist - but like when he went to the Shack to do so, his personal need for vengence took over and Harry ended up attacking him to protect himself and Lupin/Sirius.
What else could Snape have done to save Harry at the Shack? They attacked him and not vice versa. He wanted the kids to get out of there, and even argues with them about it. He knew how much danger they could be in from the Werewolf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
When Snape tried to give Occlucmency lessons that would protect; his behavior was so negative, Harry was left feeling like Snape was actually working for Voldemort at the task and Snape cut the lessons off despite their grave importance - then attacked Harry himself (OOTP SWM).
Snape had to cut Harry off from seeing more of his memories because that put Snape's mission in danger.

Dumbledore and Snape realized that Harry and Voldemort had shared thoughts, and Harry was not able to shut them out. In hindsight, we know that it was because of the horcrux, so it makes perfect sense that Harry couldn't learn Occlumency.

Snape was frustrated because Harry wasn't trying, too, which the boy admits at the end of OotP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
In HBP, Flight of the Prince, he called off the Death Eaters, then attacked Harry himself. So even at those times Snape put forth effort, his behavior and acts got in the way and generally I believe it was Harry who required protection from Snape.
Snape didn't "attack" Harry - he stopped him from following so he could get the Death Eaters away from Hogwarts. They were already burning down Hagrid's Hut - they could have done alot more damage, and there were other children there besides Harry.


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  #51  
Old August 24th, 2008, 3:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
What else could Snape have done to save Harry at the Shack? They attacked him and not vice versa. He wanted the kids to get out of there, and even argues with them about it. He knew how much danger they could be in from the Werewolf.
Was that really why Snape was there, though? The whole time he makes repeated comments about the dementors wanting to kiss Sirius and Lupin, and how much he had hoped to be the one to catch Sirius. Sounds more to me like Snape was thinking that handing Sirius over to the dementors would be payback for the trick, and he didn't want to hear what they had to say at all. IMO, Snape's actions that night were all in a selfish manner, to get revenge on Sirius. He's incredibly angry after Sirius escapes from the dementors, nobody else is that angry, are they? He just wants Sirius and Lupin punished.


  #52  
Old August 24th, 2008, 3:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Was that really why Snape was there, though? The whole time he makes repeated comments about the dementors wanting to kiss Sirius and Lupin, and how much he had hoped to be the one to catch Sirius. Sounds more to me like Snape was thinking that handing Sirius over to the dementors would be payback for the trick, and he didn't want to hear what they had to say at all.
He may well have been looking for some payback but it was imo very clear, once one has read the whole serise that the pay back he wanted was for the betrayal of Lily to Voldemort; Remember at this point the whole wizarding world (bar Voldemort, Sirius, Wormtail, Lupin & the trio) believeed that it was Sirius Black who betrayed Lily & James to Voldemort. So we can hardly blame Severus for believing what Dumbledore himelf believed - well I can't anyway

Quote:
He's incredibly angry after Sirius escapes from the dementors, nobody else is that angry, are they?
no-one else believes thier only love to have been killed by Sirius's action


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  #53  
Old August 24th, 2008, 4:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
He may well have been looking for some payback but it was imo very clear, once one has read the whole serise that the pay back he wanted was for the betrayal of Lily to Voldemort; Remember at this point the whole wizarding world (bar Voldemort, Sirius, Wormtail, Lupin & the trio) believeed that it was Sirius Black who betrayed Lily & James to Voldemort. So we can hardly blame Severus for believing what Dumbledore himelf believed - well I can't anyway
I don't blame him for thinking that Sirius was guilty- nearly everybody thought so at that point. But Snape is so caught up in his desire for revenge and his anger at Sirius that he refuses to listen to what the Trio has to say. If he does, there's a possiblity he might realize that Sirius is not the man they're looking for. If he still doesn't believe, they can transform Scabbers and show him. His feelings against Sirius are so strong he won't hear anything different, and that's a problem.
Quote:
no-one else believes thier only love to have been killed by Sirius's action
But that's like saying Snape was the only one who was affected by Lily and James' deaths. Harry is too, far more than Snape and anyone else, and he doesn't go looking for Sirius. He stays calm about the whole thing, even when he learns that Sirius betrayed his parents. And I'm still not convinced that Snape was angry at Sirius because of Lily, but because of their personal histroy with James. And if he was out looking for those who were to be blamed for Lily's death, he had to look no further than himself. He relayed the prophecy to Voldemort. He couldn't blame it all on Sirius when he had a part to play in it himself, IMO.


  #54  
Old August 24th, 2008, 4:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Hmmm, I only remember Voldemort being at Godric's Hollow in DH. James answered the door and ZaP!
I referred to his handing the prophecy over to Voldemort that marked a family for death. If he had not done that, Voldemort would never have targeted a child and its family for death - which turned out to be the Potters. Snape recognized his participation in canon on the hill, admitting his part in it to Dumbledore (DH TPT) and later upon hearing the story, Harry claimed 'Snape helped kill my parents' (HBP). So the participants both believed that Snape assisted in killing the Potters which is all that is relevant to my point.

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Snape couldn't get in to the Chamber because he wasn't a Parselmouth, and he didn't know where it was. Snape is the one who contacted the Order twice the night that Harry went to the DoM. Once to make sure that Sirius was all right, and secondly when Snape became "worried" about Harry according to Dumbledore. That is when the Order members agreed to go to the Dept. of Mysteries. So Harry had plenty of back-up without Snape being there. Snape could hardly go there and still keep his cover. If he had fought on the side of the Order that night, he wouldn't have been around in HBP to save Dumbledore from the Hand-Crux, and Harry from the Death Eaters.
My only point was that he wasn't in any of these places and didn't have to physically do any protecting for whatever reason. So in the end, keeping his promise to Dumbledore didn't entail him actually doing much protecting with respect to Harry at all which to me means he could not claim to have protected Harry except in a cursory sense.

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What else could Snape have done to save Harry at the Shack?
I would propose holding the suspects at wand point and listening as the five individuals asked him to would have been the better way to deal with the situation. Harry was also very angry and indeed went after Black himself, but he did end up listening, even when in control of Black and Lupin's wands.

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They attacked him and not vice versa.
I would respectfully disagree. They defended themselves; Snape bound Lupin head to toe, including his mouth and held Sirius at wand point. Then he grabbed the ends of Lupin's ropes and claimed he was going to 'drag the werewolf'. Harry, taking all of this in, stood before Snape and it was at that point Snape declared that Harry would be well served to die like his father for trusting black and commanded him to get out of the way or he would "make him" - a threat, not protection in my opinion - and that is when the trio in what they perceived as defense against Snape, who had lost his reason, used a triple expelliarmus that sent him smashing into the wall. (POA Servant of Lord Voldemort). So I feel the trio reacted in self defense or defense of others rather than in attack.

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He wanted the kids to get out of there, and even argues with them about it. He knew how much danger they could be in from the Werewolf.
In my judgment, the safety of the children was the last thing on Snape's mind. He seemed more concerned with having Black and Lupin kissed, without listening to what they had to say in their own defense. Snape himself remarked that he had hoped to find Black because he wanted revenge. (POA)

Snape never asked the kids to leave; he accused them of mingling with a murderer and a werewolf and calling Hermione a "stupid girl", told her to keep her mouth shut for once when she attempted to reason with him. (POA)

Thus, at most, I feel this was a misguided and failed attempt at protecting Harry and so I put it in the 'dropped the ball' category.

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Snape had to cut Harry off from seeing more of his memories because that put Snape's mission in danger. Dumbledore and Snape realized that Harry and Voldemort had shared thoughts, and Harry was not able to shut them out. In hindsight, we know that it was because of the horcrux, so it makes perfect sense that Harry couldn't learn Occlumency. Snape was frustrated because Harry wasn't trying, too, which the boy admits at the end of OotP.
This too I placed in the 'dropped the ball' category because Snape understood how important this mission was and he ceased the lessons (OOTP SWM). Thus, I felt this was an example of Snape actually hindering Harry's protection.

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Snape didn't "attack" Harry - he stopped him from following so he could get the Death Eaters away from Hogwarts. They were already burning down Hagrid's Hut - they could have done alot more damage, and there were other children there besides Harry.
I feel Snape did begin with the idea of protecting Harry when he stopped the DEs from crucioing him; however, this incident too ended with Snape knocking Harry back, disarming him and then using a whipping curse upon him - after the other DEs had already passed through the gate and exited Hogwarts (which the book clearly states HBP Flight of the Prince). Thus, I place this also in the drop the ball category. I respect your view that it was not an attack, that is however, the name I place upon Snape's actions.

So in conclusion, I feel that Snape didn't actually have to reconcile with any real active protection of Harry - a chore which he hadn't seemed to me to have taken against his will when he made his promise to Dumbledore in his office following the Potters deaths. I don't feel he kept that promise altogether and when he did, in my judgment, it was in line with his everyday duties or he began trying and dropped the ball.

That is why I cannot buy into the idea that Snape "protected Harry" for 6.5 years using any of these examples. I do feel that he, like the others, did assist in protecting Harry by spying on Dumbledore and relaying any information that might have constributed to Harry's protection. However, that taken together with imo, Snape's general everyday mistreatment of Harry, balances out to a wash in my opinion because overall, I feel Harry required more protection from Snape than anyone else in the series on a regular basis. Snape's claim in DH that he was doing it due to his emotions for Lily (DH TPT) was farcial in my opinion; in my view, the majority of his behavior toward Harry was based on his emotions for James. Further, focus on Snape as a protector ignores the mistreatment Harry endured at his hands from which he required protection, imo, and that just adds insult to the injury sustained as I see it.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 24th, 2008 at 9:48 pm.
  #55  
Old August 24th, 2008, 4:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
But Snape is so caught up in his desire for revenge and his anger at Sirius that he refuses to listen to what the Trio has to say.
Very few poeple would take to work of three children in such a matter, as Dumbledore actually points out.

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But that's like saying Snape was the only one who was affected by Lily and James' deaths.
No; I was saying exactly what I wrote. No-one else has lost thier only love. certainly Harry lost his mother - but that's not the same (I am not saying harry's possition is either better or worse that Snapes only that it is different)

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Harry is too, far more than Snape and anyone else, and he doesn't go looking for Sirius. He stays calm about the whole thing, even when he learns that Sirius betrayed his parents.
Does he? Really? I don't agree he was calm, but eveyone is allowed thier own opinions

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And I'm still not convinced that Snape was angry at Sirius because of Lily, but because of their personal histroy with James. And if he was out looking for those who were to be blamed for Lily's death, he had to look no further than himself. He relayed the prophecy to Voldemort. He couldn't blame it all on Sirius when he had a part to play in it himself, IMO.
I did not say he placed the all blame on Sirius, but I can understand why he would see Sirius's actions (as they were understood to be before his escape from Azkaban) as being different to his own. His actions effected an unknown person when he did them, once he realised they affected someone he cared about he did what he could to change them. Sirius was believed to have knowningly betrayed his best freind and wife.


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Old August 24th, 2008, 4:32 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
No; I was saying exactly what I wrote. No-one else has lost thier only love. certainly Harry lost his mother - but that's not the same (I am not saying harry's possition is either better or worse that Snapes only that it is different)
I agree it is different; but in my judgment that is irrelevant to Snape's disposition in comparison to the others in the room. No one but Harry had lost their only mother; no one but Sirius and Remus had lost their two best friends in the world. So everyone had their personal reasons for an emotional response, imo. Further, Harry, Sirius and Remus were loved in return, meaning the relationship they had with the deceased was made the more potent by their relationship during life with Lily (and James). Snape was moving under an unrequited love and while his emotional response would still be expected, in my opinion, he would have been the one most likely to be able to restrain his response under the circumstances. However, as it played out, it was the other three who were able to do so.


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Old August 24th, 2008, 5:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Harry is actually not at all calm when he first sees Sirius in the shack. In fact, he has his first murderous impulse directed at Sirius. He tackles him to the ground.

I agree with kitt and SIP. Snape is not motivated by a schoolyard prank. Lupin is the only one to mention said prank, because he apparently isn't aware of how Snape feels about Lily.

Look at how it appears to Snape: he follows Lupin into the shack, intent on discovering the whereabouts of Sirius Black, of whom several witnesses testified that he killed 13 Muggles and who is also the man Snape thinks caused Lily's death. He comes in the shack and sees three children (one of them Lily's son) with Lupin and Sirius, on a full moon night. He knows Lupin hasn't taken his Wolfsbane potion and he thinks he knows that Sirius is a mad killer. Yikes.
Sirius and the kids go on about some rat, but that only makes it sound more like the children have been Confunded, because what can a rat have to do with anything? Snape draws that conclusion and tries to both save the kids and bring Sirius to justice for at least Lily's sake. They argue with him, all the while the full moon could peek through a crack in the wood or Sirius could escape, or some other harm could befall the kids. When Harry argues, that just brings to mind James even more, who also put his trust in Sirius and, in Snape's opinion, died because of that....which is why Snape brings him up too.

There are lots of factors contributing to this, but whatever role the Werewolf Incident played, if at all, is infinitesimal, especially in comparison to those enormous feelings about Lily, James, protecting Harry/the students, etc.


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Last edited by ignisia; August 24th, 2008 at 5:34 pm.
  #58  
Old August 24th, 2008, 5:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by JLTucker View Post
Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry? Yes. In the end, I believe he did come to care about Harry.
After further review, I am going to change my opinion and say that I do not think Snape came to care for Harry at all. After all the years Snape has known Harry and has mistreated him, the following passage from DH broke the straw on the camel's back:

The Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33 The Prince's Tale, pg. 687, U.S. Edition
"I have spied for you and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter's son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter - "

"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"

"For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!"

From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe: She landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office, and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears.

"After all this time?"

"Always," said Snape.


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Old August 24th, 2008, 6:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Harry is actually not at all calm when he first sees Sirius in the shack. In fact, he has his first murderous impulse directed at Sirius. He tackles him to the ground.

I agree with kitt and SIP. Snape is not motivated by a schoolyard prank. Lupin is the only one to mention said prank, because he apparently isn't aware of how Snape feels about Lily.

Look at how it appears to Snape: he follows Lupin into the shack, intent on discovering the whereabouts of Sirius Black, of whom several witnesses testified that he killed 13 Muggles and who is also the man Snape thinks caused Lily's death. He comes in the shack and sees three children (one of them Lily's son) with Lupin and Sirius, on a full moon night. He knows Lupin hasn't taken his Wolfsbane potion and he thinks he knows that Sirius is a mad killer. Yikes.
Sirius and the kids go on about some rat, but that only makes it sound more like the children have been Confunded, because what can a rat have to do with anything? Snape draws that conclusion and tries to both save the kids and bring Sirius to justice for at least Lily's sake. They argue with him, all the while the full moon could peek through a crack in the wood or Sirius could escape, or some other harm could befall the kids. When Harry argues, that just brings to mind James even more, who also put his trust in Sirius and, in Snape's opinion, died because of that....which is why Snape brings him up too.

There are lots of factors contributing to this, but whatever role the Werewolf Incident played, if at all, is infinitesimal, especially in comparison to those enormous feelings about Lily, James, protecting Harry/the students, etc.
I don't think that explains why Snape wouldn't listen. His speeches in anger were all about making those around him be quiet. He directly told Harry, Sirius and Hermione to be silent, in a very aggressive fashion (threats with his wand and yelling over the speakers designated by capital letters in the text to help us understand that, imo) and he bound Lupin's mouth so he could not speak.

In my judgment, Snape feared hearing a justification that might exonerate Sirius and Lupin. He knew the kids were not stupid (especially Hermione) and he knew how Harry felt about his dead parents - Harry's attitude toward Snape when he spoke ill of his father was evidence of this ("SHUT UP" he says which even for Harry was extremely crazy behavior toward a professor, even Snape. Never had he reacted so strongly before.) So Snape understood that if the very intelligent Hermione had listened and wished for him to - and the very volatile Harry had listened and wished for him to, there had to be a good reason to listen - but he did not want to because it might have caused his quest for revenge to be extinguished, imo.


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Old August 25th, 2008, 6:37 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Snape chose to see the negative in the situation, which was that Harry was James' son. He took out his anger from a trick that James had played on him on Harry, now why would he do that if he cared about Harry?
He accepted Harry as James's son. That was why he was able to help Harry IMO. He might have been very jealous about James winning Lily's love, but I think he respected her preference and also accepted Harry as not only Lily's son, but also James. Because Harry was. Even if Snape denied it to everyone (the quotes from canon which you have given) and even if as I think at times, Snape may have denied it to himself, the fact was that Harry was both Lily's and James's; Snape may not have liked it, maybe he ignored it (he did to everyone including Dumbledore) but if he hated Harry, passing on his dislike for James onto Harry, he would not have been able to pass on the memories and also not look after him all those years IMO.

He would have still worked in the Order for Lily's sake, he would have worked for Dumbledore, but he would not have been able to keep the Occlumency memories to himself, and he would have called for Harry's blood for the sectumsempra and he would have also asked Harry to return the Potions book, which he read very clearly off Harry's surface thoughts and he would not have called Lupin to give the Marauder's Map to him; knowing that Harry had used it to go to Hogsmeade IMO.

A vindictive Snape would have destroyed something of James, knowing that it would be very dear to Harry. He never does. He hands over the Map to Lupin, because he knew that if he had it with him, Harry would never get it back. It was a roundabout way of giving the Map back to Harry. It was Jame's Map. That had nothing to do with Lily and that Map insulted him, left, right and Centre IMO. And yet Snape made sure that Map would go back to Harry eventually. This alsone shows that Snape never hated Harry, never passed on his dislike of James on to Harry IMO.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I believe Snape only helped and protected Harry because of Lily and Dumbledore: not because of James or Harry. His love for Lily may have overpowered his hate for James and Harry (his hate for Harry spawned from, I believe, his jealousy that he was Lily's and James' son - not Lily's and Severus'; along with, of course, Harry's supposed resemblance to James), but this does not mean that he grew to like, love, or care for Harry.
Have answered it above.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
First, as no one has pointed out to me; nor can I find any real "protection" Snape did in canon in my view
He stopped Harry from falling off his broom in PS/SS. No other teacher seemed to have noticed anything amiss and most of them including McGonagall were present, I think.

He was also willing to referee the next match, so that no one would try anything funny.

In POA, he is the one who makes sure Harry will not have the Map that could tempt him to go alone when Black was on the loose; and yet he made sure it would be a teacher that would give the Map back to Harry, for it was something of his father. (I presume Snape was able to know whose map it was reading the probably very familiar insults there). He could have called Harry's Head of House; Harry would have never seen the Map again, or if he was really vindictive and hated James and took that out on Harry as many feel, this was the right chance for Snape to throw the hated parchment which insulted him into the fire. He would be justified in doing that as well.

By giving it to Lupin, Snape made sure Harry would not have the Map to go out making him a target for Black, thus protecting him, and at the same time, ensured that the Map would be in safe hands and eventually go back to Harry.

In GoF, Snape starts the active work, by going back into Voldemort service, both to do his bit for the WW and also to help Dumbledore to ensure Harry's survival.

In OOTP, Snape tries to teach Harry Occlumency, but fails because of Harry's stubbornness; he is the reason Harry and the others survived the MOM battle, because he was the one who called for the Order. Else, Harry and the others may have died. No one else knew about their travel or of Harry's vision.

In HBP Snape gives a pretty mild punishment to Harry, for almost killing Draco. And in the Flight of the Prince he saves Harry from being captured by the DEs and taken to Voldemort and also stops the crucio by Amycus.

In DH he sends the doe and watches out for Harry to see if the sword is claimed properly, waiting to protect him in necessary.

I think Snape did everything he could to protect Harry.

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So considering Snape did so little actual active protecting of Harry, there was no real chore for him in that regard, imo. That is, he did not follow Harry's every step; he did not step in when Harry was in danger in the chamber of secrets, with the multi headed beast, or at the MOM.
And the others did? I don't think so. Were Sirius, Remus and Dumbledore watching Harry's every step; they never knew about Harry going to the MOM until Snape told them IMO.

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I don't think that explains why Snape wouldn't listen. His speeches in anger were all about making those around him be quiet. He directly told Harry, Sirius and Hermione to be silent, in a very aggressive fashion (threats with his wand and yelling over the speakers designated by capital letters in the text to help us understand that, imo) and he bound Lupin's mouth so he could not speak.
In the Shack when Snape entered there were Sirius (the traitor), Lupin Sirius's friend and who did not tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus and three third year students and one rat.

Sirius the man who was imprisoned for murdering the Potters was telling Snape that Snape's conclusions about him being murderer, even though he had been in Azkaban for some 13 years and had escaped and was on the run; Lupin who was also beseeching Snape to wait and listen to his "friend" and 3 students who were in danger because they were in the presence of a murderer and his friend, who was incidentally a werewolf, who had forgotten to take his potion.

And all of them were asking Snape to listen?!

Snape was not wrong in doing what he did; he may have very well thought that the 3 students were Confunded. Snape was actually doing his duty and he was also protecting the students from a werewolf who had forgotten to take his potion.

And the Ministry had ordered Sirius Black to be kissed on sight; so Snape was not wrong in saying that he would take Black directly to the dementors.

The entire post is my opinion only.


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