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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



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  #1441  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I always just assumed that Dumbledore's plan regarding the Elder Wand was to neutralize it and then hope the timing would work out later on regarding Snape's possession of it and Voldemort figuring the whole thing out. It didn't work out quite the right way though, but there is only so much one could do with setting up an event like that. There are too many variables that could change the outcome.

Plus, I don't think it was the only reason that Dumbledore planned his death with Snape though. I think the other reasons were just as valid and he was just accomplishing more than one task with that event.


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  #1442  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:39 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
I always just assumed that Dumbledore's plan regarding the Elder Wand was to neutralize it and then hope the timing would work out later on regarding Snape's possession of it and Voldemort figuring the whole thing out. It didn't work out quite the right way though, but there is only so much one could do with setting up an event like that. There are too many variables that could change the outcome.

Plus, I don't think it was the only reason that Dumbledore planned his death with Snape though. I think the other reasons were just as valid and he was just accomplishing more than one task with that event.
As I see it, it did work out as Dumbledore had planned, with the exception of Snape actually being in possession of the wand and giving Voldemort easier access to it. It didn't really matter though because Snape was a dead man the moment he killed Dumbledore and Dumbledore had to have realized that, imo.

I am willing to give Dumbledore a little quarter and agree that he "hoped" Voldemort would not kill Snape. But was that even a small possibility - realistically?


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  #1443  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I am willing to give Dumbledore a little quarter and agree that he "hoped" Voldemort would not kill Snape. But was that even a small possibility - realistically?
I don't think there was any chance Snape would live once he killed Dumbledore; I wished he had, though. Dumbledore never thinks so, either.


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  #1444  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post

I am willing to give Dumbledore a little quarter and agree that he "hoped" Voldemort would not kill Snape. But was that even a small possibility - realistically?
Let's say that Snape got the wand. Voldemort still didn't know it was the Elder Wand at that point. If the Seven Potters incident didn't happen, Voldemort wouldn't know that another wand wouldn't work on Harry and he wouldn't have gone hunting for the Elder Wand at that point, so there would have been a delay in him working things out.

I think it was all a matter of timing. Now if Snape had the wand at that point and Voldemort figured it out, he would have just asked for it and tried using it. He may not have killed Snape outright because wasn't he using it for a while before he thought to kill Snape anyway? It all depended on when Voldemort figured he'd have to do away with Snape in order for the wand to work properly for him, and it would depend on when Voldemort obtained the wand as well.

I just think that Dumbledore hoped the timing would work out in favor of Snape even if it was a remote possibility. This is war after all and Snape in my view is like a special forces type soldier. Soldiers do know they could die at any moment, even if they aren't prepared for when that moment comes. Plus, depending on the situation, Snape may have even been able to get away if Voldemort went after him. It isn't impossible. Dumbledore may have taken this into consideration as well, considering he had also given Snape important information for Harry.


  #1445  
Old August 20th, 2008, 5:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
Let's say that Snape got the wand. Voldemort still didn't know it was the Elder Wand at that point. If the Seven Potters incident didn't happen, Voldemort wouldn't know that another wand wouldn't work on Harry and he wouldn't have gone hunting for the Elder Wand at that point, so there would have been a delay in him working things out.

I think it was all a matter of timing. Now if Snape had the wand at that point and Voldemort figured it out, he would have just asked for it and tried using it. He may not have killed Snape outright because wasn't he using it for a while before he thought to kill Snape anyway? It all depended on when Voldemort figured he'd have to do away with Snape in order for the wand to work properly for him, and it would depend on when Voldemort obtained the wand as well.

I just think that Dumbledore hoped the timing would work out in favor of Snape even if it was a remote possibility. This is war after all and Snape in my view is like a special forces type soldier. Soldiers do know they could die at any moment, even if they aren't prepared for when that moment comes. Plus, depending on the situation, Snape may have even been able to get away if Voldemort went after him. It isn't impossible. Dumbledore may have taken this into consideration as well, considering he had also given Snape important information for Harry.
Is isn't that I disagree, it is just that there are too many plot holes associated with it all. Dumbledore intended for 7 Potters to work and Harry escape undetected - that is what he said to Snape. He didn't intend for Voldemeort and Harry to fight during that event. Voldemort had kidnapped Ollivander anyway, so he wasn't depending on Lucius' wand to do the job (although he was hopeful it might), he was planning to seek the Elder Wand anyway - as Dumbledore figured he would way back in GoF.

Snape may have been able to get away - if he knew that he had to. But he didn't. Why would he have even tried? So I don't see what there was for Dumbledore to take into consideration with respect to Snape being able to save himself from Voldemort. As far as Snape knew, he was in perfect standing with Voldemort. That is why he went to Voldemort in the end - without making sure he'd given Harry the message first. Snape only knew he had to see Nagini protected as his "clue" that it was time to give the memories. But if he had known everything, he could have better prepared for all types of contingencies. That is a bit of a plothole on JKR's part, imo.


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  #1446  
Old August 20th, 2008, 6:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Is isn't that I disagree, it is just that there are too many plot holes associated with it all. Dumbledore intended for 7 Potters to work and Harry escape undetected - that is what he said to Snape. He didn't intend for Voldemeort and Harry to fight during that event.
Yeah, that's what I meant pretty much. It would have slowed down Voldemort if he didn't have Lucius's wand fail. He may not have been quite as driven to find the Elder Wand if he thought he had other options. I agree he would have been on the quest regardless, but I figure the 7 Potters incident would have pushed him to go faster. I actually assumed that it was that incident that really put him on the path of finding the Elder Wand, but I could be wrong, since it's been a few months since I read the book. It could also be something that may have been left open to interpretation and I assumed things this way. I can't remember for sure.


Quote:
Voldemort had kidnapped Ollivander anyway, so he wasn't depending on Lucius' wand to do the job (although he was hopeful it might), he was planning to seek the Elder Wand anyway - as Dumbledore figured he would way back in GoF.
Had he kidnapped Ollivander specifically for information of the Elder Wand or just to figure out the issue between the Harry's wand and his and then the Elder Wand came into play?

Quote:
Snape may have been able to get away - if he knew that he had to. But he didn't. Why would he have even tried? So I don't see what there was for Dumbledore to take into consideration with respect to Snape being able to save himself from Voldemort. As far as Snape knew, he was in perfect standing with Voldemort. That is why he went to Voldemort in the end - without making sure he'd given Harry the message first. Snape only knew he had to see Nagini protected as his "clue" that it was time to give the memories. But if he had known everything, he could have better prepared for all types of contingencies. That is a bit of a plothole on JKR's part, imo.
I think Snape needed to keep close to Voldemort as long as he could and until the point that he noticed he was keeping Nagini close. That's part of what I meant by timing. Unfortunately for him, Voldemort came to his conclusions of the Elder Wand right when Snape saw that the time had come for him to complete his mission (at least I think that's when he learned it was time. I could be wrong though). If it didn't happen that way he could have gotten away. The thing that gets me is if Dumbledore hoped that it would go this way, with Harry being the master of the Elder Wand. I can't see how that would be, because it was dumb luck that made Harry the master of the Elder Wand in the first place. I think he simply hoped he would neutralize it and that Harry and Voldemort would face each other and fulfill the prophecy in some other way.

Oh and about Snape not knowing enough to be able to get away... I think it was by necessity that he didn't know enough. Dumbledore didn't want to put all of his eggs in one basket. If Snape broke against Voldemort at any point then if he knew too much the whole plan would just blow up. If the timing had worked out right, he could have gotten away. He could have seen that Nagini was kept close and that he needed to get to Harry before Voldemort got it in his head he needed to kill Snape, if the timing worked out. I just don't think Dumbledore could in any way plan for every outcome.

I'm typing quickly, so I'm not sure if I'm making much sense.


  #1447  
Old August 20th, 2008, 6:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
Had he kidnapped Ollivander specifically for information of the Elder Wand or just to figure out the issue between the Harry's wand and his and then the Elder Wand came into play?
He had kidnapped Ollivander to understand what had happened with the wands in GoF, yes. He was using Lucius's wand on Ollivander's advice, in fact. It was only after that wand broke, that he went back to Ollivander with more questions and learned of the Elder Wand. That this was the sequence of events, is revealed in "The Wandmaker", DH.


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  #1448  
Old August 20th, 2008, 6:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Yeah, that's what I meant pretty much. It would have slowed down Voldemort if he didn't have Lucius's wand fail. He may not have been quite as driven to find the Elder Wand if he thought he had other options. I agree he would have been on the quest regardless, but I figure the 7 Potters incident would have pushed him to go faster. I actually assumed that it was that incident that really put him on the path of finding the Elder Wand, but I could be wrong, since it's been a few months since I read the book. It could also be something that may have been left open to interpretation and I assumed things this way. I can't remember for sure.
That incident did likely propell Voldemort into further action - but it isn't like he would have just decided that Lucius' wand was his best bet in facing Harry if that event had never happened. He would have made Ollivander procure him a wand that worked best for him - that was not the twin of Harry's. Voldemort was as wise as Ron, at a minimum, and Ron knew that much! . Voldemort would not go into a battle that his entire supremacy rested on with a barrowed wand, that just makes no sense. He decided to try it out in 7 Potters because it was simply a wand that was not the brother of Harry's - but to assume he'd of stuck with Lucius' wand if 7 Potters hadn't happened - well I wouldn't assume that at all (and I am not saying you would either.)

Quote:
Had he kidnapped Ollivander specifically for information of the Elder Wand or just to figure out the issue between the Harry's wand and his and then the Elder Wand came into play?
No, to discover the issue. However upon discovering the issue, he tried a "different" wand and it didn't work. It could not have worked merely because it was Lucius' wand and pertained to him (a owner's wand works best for them.) Well his own wand woudn't work, so he could have just gotten another wand that would. However, he wanted more - he wanted the best wand, the Elder Wand. My only point is, he would have sought that wand - the best - no matter if he had tested Lucius' or not, because he would not settle for Lucius' second hand wand that should not have worked well for him anyway except that he was so powerful it would work better than it might for another.

Quote:
I think Snape needed to keep close to Voldemort as long as he could and until the point that he noticed he was keeping Nagini close. That's part of what I meant by timing. Unfortunately for him, Voldemort came to his conclusions of the Elder Wand right when Snape saw that the time had come for him to complete his mission (at least I think that's when he learned it was time. I could be wrong though). If it didn't happen that way he could have gotten away. The thing that gets me is if Dumbledore hoped that it would go this way, with Harry being the master of the Elder Wand. I can't see how that would be, because it was dumb luck that made Harry the master of the Elder Wand in the first place. I think he simply hoped he would neutralize it and that Harry and Voldemort would face each other and fulfill the prophecy in some other way.
I agree. Dumbledore meant for the power of the wand to die with him. He also wanted Voldemort to believe himself the master, imo.

Quote:
Oh and about Snape not knowing enough to be able to get away... I think it was by necessity that he didn't know enough. Dumbledore didn't want to put all of his eggs in one basket. If Snape broke against Voldemort at any point then if he knew too much the whole plan would just blow up. If the timing had worked out right, he could have gotten away. He could have seen that Nagini was kept close and that he needed to get to Harry before Voldemort got it in his head he needed to kill Snape, if the timing worked out. I just don't think Dumbledore could in any way plan for every outcome.

I'm typing quickly, so I'm not sure if I'm making much sense.
Yes it made sense. My point is that Snape wouldn't have gotten away, no matter what the timing because he didn't know he had to get away from anything. If he'd have known and given Harry the information before Harry completed his task - maybe there is a small chance Snape might have escaped death although I doubt it. Voldemort would have hunted him to the ground for that wand. He would have put all of his resources into it, just as he did with Harry. Dumbledore said he was obsessed.

But you run into another plot hole in that regard because Dumbledore admitted that he purposely slowed Harry's quest down. Therefore Dumbledore himself made sure Voldemort had ample time to trace and find the wand. It was like he wanted him to find it so he would think he was the master - which would also mean he knew Snape was a dead man.


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  #1449  
Old August 20th, 2008, 6:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
He had kidnapped Ollivander to understand what had happened with the wands in GoF, yes. He was using Lucius's wand on Ollivander's advice, in fact. It was only after that wand broke, that he went back to Ollivander with more questions and learned of the Elder Wand. That this was the sequence of events, is revealed in "The Wandmaker", DH.
Coolness. My memory on that topic is better than I thought it was. So if the 7 Potters incident didn't play out that way, it's possible that it would have slowed down Voldemort's search of the Elder Wand because he may not have asked more questions until that wand failed against Harry's or if he noticed it wasn't working well for him.


  #1450  
Old August 20th, 2008, 6:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
He had kidnapped Ollivander to understand what had happened with the wands in GoF, yes. He was using Lucius's wand on Ollivander's advice, in fact. It was only after that wand broke, that he went back to Ollivander with more questions and learned of the Elder Wand. That this was the sequence of events, is revealed in "The Wandmaker", DH.
Be that as it may, we would have to believe Voldemort a veritable idiot to have decided that Lucius' wand would be his final wand in an attempt to vanquish Harry. Every 3rd year worth his salt knows a barrowed wand does not work as well as one that chooses you. I think he only gave it a go because Snape told him about the impending 7 Potters and so he hadn't time to procure one. But Snape and Dumbledore did not know Voldemort would take Lucius' wand and use it. They didn't even feel he and Harry would fight during 7 Potters. So it was all just circumstance that Voldemort used Lucius' wand, imo. If Voldemort planned to use Lucius wand, it was a plot hole by JKR or else Voldemort was truly a foolish man who knew less about fundamental magic related to wands than a 3rd year - I truly doubt that was what JKR wished for us to believe.

Meanwhile, Dumbledore could not have thought that would slow Voldemort in the least - as I mentioned, he knew nothing about what Voldemort was doing or might do in relation to Lucius' wand.


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  #1451  
Old August 20th, 2008, 7:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
Coolness. My memory on that topic is better than I thought it was. So if the 7 Potters incident didn't play out that way, it's possible that it would have slowed down Voldemort's search of the Elder Wand because he may not have asked more questions until that wand failed against Harry's or if he noticed it wasn't working well for him.
Yep


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  #1452  
Old August 20th, 2008, 7:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Be that as it may, we would have to believe Voldemort a veritable idiot to have decided that Lucius' wand would be his final wand in an attempt to vanquish Harry. Every 3rd year worth his salt knows a barrowed wand does not work as well as one that chooses you. I think he only gave it a go because Snape told him about the impending 7 Potters and so he hadn't time to procure one. But Snape and Dumbledore did not know Voldemort would take Lucius' wand and use it. They didn't even feel he and Harry would fight during 7 Potters. So it was all just circumstance that Voldemort used Lucius' wand, imo. If Voldemort planned to use Lucius wand, it was a plot hole by JKR or else Voldemort was truly a foolish man who knew less about fundamental magic related to wands than a 3rd year - I truly doubt that was what JKR wished for us to believe.

Meanwhile, Dumbledore could not have thought that would slow Voldemort in the least - as I mentioned, he knew nothing about what Voldemort was doing or might do in relation to Lucius' wand.
That's my point, though. They wouldn't have known that he'd engage Harry. They were trying to avoid it. It would have slowed down Voldemort regardless, so I don't think it's far fetched to assume that Dumbledore was hoping that Voldemort's eventual quest for the Elder Wand would take longer and the timing would work out for the rest of the events to play out in a better way, so it would be possible for Snape to stay alive long enough (possibly even stay alive) for him to tell Harry what he needed to tell him, and to help out in other ways as needed. Man, that was a long sentence, sorry.

About the earlier discussion regarding Snape's intelligence and schoolwork, ect. I definitely think that we have evidence enough that he was talented, inventive and intelligent, but also the type to be overlooked for various reasons, unfortunately.


  #1453  
Old August 20th, 2008, 8:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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That's my point, though. They wouldn't have known that he'd engage Harry. They were trying to avoid it. It would have slowed down Voldemort regardless, so I don't think it's far fetched to assume that Dumbledore was hoping that Voldemort's eventual quest for the Elder Wand would take longer and the timing would work out for the rest of the events to play out in a better way, so it would be possible for Snape to stay alive long enough (possibly even stay alive) for him to tell Harry what he needed to tell him, and to help out in other ways as needed. Man, that was a long sentence, sorry.
Do you mean because Voldemort would be satisfied using Lucius Malfoy's barrowed wand - and so he would not look for a better wand?


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  #1454  
Old August 20th, 2008, 11:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Do you mean because Voldemort would be satisfied using Lucius Malfoy's barrowed wand - and so he would not look for a better wand?
Kind of. I mean, that Dumbledore and Snape could not have known that Voldemort and Harry would have met for certain during that incident. Having 7 Harrys protected by Order members was set up for a reason after all. They didn't want him to be found or involved in the fight. It wasn't set up for the two to meet. If they had not met then Voldemort would not have known that Lucius's wand wasn't any good against Harry's and it would have slowed down his research about what to do about this problem that he has with defeating Harry's wand.

So there are a lot of variables that could have come into play in regards to Voldemort's research about the wand and Snape's part in the whole thing. If things hadn't timed out the way that they did I think it's possible that he wouldn't have had time to get to the point where he thought he had to kill Snape to make the wand loyal to him, and Snape may have had a chance to tell Harry what he needed to and then turn the tables on Voldemort.

I don't think he had to die or that Dumbledore set it up that way. I think it was a strong possibility that he would have died, for various reasons, and that Dumbledore knew that. However, Dumbledore was banking on him sticking around long enough for Harry to get the information he needed. Why set the guy up to die if he had a job to do? He was hoping that it would all time out right, but knew that it might not. Just like any strategic maneuver it could work out or it might not. It's depends on a bunch of variables. Dumbledore knew Voldemort would go after the Elder Wand eventually, but he couldn't have known when he'd get the idea in his head or what would prompt him to do so.

Anyway, I think this is going OT a bit and I totally don't remember what the original question was.


  #1455  
Old August 20th, 2008, 11:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
Kind of. I mean, that Dumbledore and Snape could not have known that Voldemort and Harry would have met for certain during that incident. Having 7 Harrys protected by Order members was set up for a reason after all. They didn't want him to be found or involved in the fight. It wasn't set up for the two to meet. If they had not met then Voldemort would not have known that Lucius's wand wasn't any good against Harry's and it would have slowed down his research about what to do about this problem that he has with defeating Harry's wand.
I see what you are saying. However, how did Voldemort know that the Elder Wand was not working for him? He hadn't met Harry with it prior to killing Snape. In this same way, even without 7 Potters taking place, Voldemort would have at a minimum tested out Lucius' wand. Especially since it is a barrowed wand from another wizard - those are known not to work well for others.

Quote:
So there are a lot of variables that could have come into play in regards to Voldemort's research about the wand and Snape's part in the whole thing. If things hadn't timed out the way that they did I think it's possible that he wouldn't have had time to get to the point where he thought he had to kill Snape to make the wand loyal to him, and Snape may have had a chance to tell Harry what he needed to and then turn the tables on Voldemort.
Well I wouldn't call anything impossible. But I find it highly improbable that Dumbledore felt that Harry would finish his quest before Voldemort traced the Elder Wand. Dumbledore purposely slowed Harry down, so he knew he would be putting Snape into hot water, imo.

Quote:
I don't think he had to die or that Dumbledore set it up that way. I think it was a strong possibility that he would have died, for various reasons, and that Dumbledore knew that. However, Dumbledore was banking on him sticking around long enough for Harry to get the information he needed. Why set the guy up to die if he had a job to do? He was hoping that it would all time out right, but knew that it might not. Just like any strategic maneuver it could work out or it might not. It's depends on a bunch of variables. Dumbledore knew Voldemort would go after the Elder Wand eventually, but he couldn't have known when he'd get the idea in his head or what would prompt him to do so.
I agree, but I think it gives Dumbledore too much credit to assume that he didn't realize how much risk he was placing Snape in. He knew and he didn't tell Snape. So Snape gets to feel foolish - faithfully serving Dumbledore by pretending to serve Voldemort only to be betrayed by Dumbledore. And on top of that, Dumbledore adds the irony of having told Snape that he'd placed his faith in the wrong person - meaning Voldemort - when they met after the Potter's deaths. In truth, Snape did so again, only this time with Dumbledore, supposedly the person one should place their faith in.


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  #1456  
Old August 20th, 2008, 11:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I see what you are saying. However, how did Voldemort know that the Elder Wand was not working for him?
How did he know it wasn't working for him in the book? He can tell it isn't working properly. He didn't figure it out right away. He had to use it and slowly put two and two together.


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He hadn't met Harry with it prior to killing Snape. In this same way, even without 7 Potters taking place, Voldemort would have at a minimum tested out Lucius' wand. Especially since it is a barrowed wand from another wizard - those are known not to work well for others.
I don't know if he would have had sufficient enough information that early on about the loyalty of the wands and how they change masters ect. Still he wouldn't have known Harry would best him again until they met, and that was kind of a fluke thing too, wasn't it?



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Well I wouldn't call anything impossible. But I find it highly improbable that Dumbledore felt that Harry would finish his quest before Voldemort traced the Elder Wand. Dumbledore purposely slowed Harry down, so he knew he would be putting Snape into hot water, imo.
I'm not saying he didn't know that Snape was going to be in hot water, as you put it. I'm just saying that it's possible he hoped the timing would work out.

And he slowed Harry down in order to keep him safe from being too tempted by the Hallows. Is there any other reason? I can't remember if there is.

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I agree, but I think it gives Dumbledore too much credit to assume that he didn't realize how much risk he was placing Snape in. He knew and he didn't tell Snape. So Snape gets to look foolish - faithfully serving Dumbledore by pretending to serve Voldemort only to be betrayed by Dumbledore. And on top of that, Dumbledore adds the irony of having told Snape that he'd placed his faith in the wrong person - meaning Voldemort - when they met after the Potter's deaths. In truth, Snape did so again, only this time with Dumbledore, supposedly the person one should place their faith in.
While, I first read it I thought that Snape didn't know about the Elder Wand, I'm not convinced of it any longer, because of how he reacts. He instantly knows the jig is up, in my opinion. Anyway, he could also just have figured it out quickly because he's a smart guy, IMHO.

Regardless of this I have to say that Dumbledore knew how much risk he was putting Snape in and that he wasn't required to tell Snape this. As I said earlier, he didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket. He didn't want to tell Snape too much in case Snape was compromised. He was in a very dangerous position. Also, I look at Dumbledore as a General in a war. He made the plan and told his soldiers (Snape and Harry, Ron and Hermione) what to do and like soldiers they did it. It isn't like they didn't know they were going to be put in danger with what they signed up for. They all knew. Could Snape have been better equipped with the knowledge of the Elder Wand? Yes, I suppose so, but like any soldier, even someone who is a special ops kind of person, isn't going to know every phase of every plan, even if it puts them in danger. War is dangerous. There is no getting around that.

I also don't think that Snape looked at all foolish. He did the best he could with what he was given, and if he could have done more he probably would have done so without hesitation. I think Snape knew what he was getting into. The only thing that I think really threw him for a loop was Harry having to die, and I still don't think he looked foolish. really.


  #1457  
Old August 21st, 2008, 12:38 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I see what you are saying. However, how did Voldemort know that the Elder Wand was not working for him? He hadn't met Harry with it prior to killing Snape. In this same way, even without 7 Potters taking place, Voldemort would have at a minimum tested out Lucius' wand.
I am sure he did, and found its performance adequate, or he would not have risked confronting Harry with it. Given the circumstances, I think Lucius's wand may even have been working like a captured wand. This was not why it failed - why it failed is explained by Albus, and has to do with the duel at the end of GoF.

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He knew and he didn't tell Snape. So Snape gets to look foolish - faithfully serving Dumbledore by pretending to serve Voldemort only to be betrayed by Dumbledore.
Does Snape? I thought he was doing exactly what he agreed to do all those years ago. Making sure that Lily's child lived.


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  #1458  
Old August 21st, 2008, 12:42 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
How did he know it wasn't working for him in the book? He can tell it isn't working properly. He didn't figure it out right away. He had to use it and slowly put two and two together.
And we assume that he would wait months and months? He only had the Elder Wand for a couple of days before he was aware it was not working for him. As concerned as he was about it, I have to highly doubt he would wait long at all - more importantly, I don't think Dumbledore could rely on his doing so.

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I don't know if he would have had sufficient enough information that early on about the loyalty of the wands and how they change masters ect. Still he wouldn't have known Harry would best him again until they met, and that was kind of a fluke thing too, wasn't it?
If 3rd years know a barrowed wand works worse than there own, how could Voldemort not know? Ollivander tells all the kids that when hey pick their wands. The one that chooses them works well, others don't. Remember when Harry had to go through several wands to finally find one that would work well for him?

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While, I first read it I thought that Snape didn't know about the Elder Wand, I'm not convinced of it any longer, because of how he reacts. He instantly knows the jig is up, in my opinion. Anyway, he could also just have figured it out quickly because he's a smart guy, IMHO.
Well if that is true, I would not understand the passage in DH-The Elder Wand where Snape's face was like a death mask - marble white and so still that when he spoke, it was a shock to see that anyone lived behind the blank eyes. This occurred after Voldemort explained to him that he'd gotten the Elder Wand from Dumbledore's tomb and he had previously told Snape it was not working. Then Voldemort says "perhaps you already know it? You are a clever man, after all, Severus." Because Voldemort had already spelled it out and Snape knew in that moment Voldemort intended to kill him, believing him to be the master. It seems to me that Snape discovered Dumbledore's plan then and thus was hard pressed not to allow his emotions show at the betrayal.

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Regardless of this I have to say that Dumbledore knew how much risk he was putting Snape in and that he wasn't required to tell Snape this. As I said earlier, he didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket. He didn't want to tell Snape too much in case Snape was compromised. He was in a very dangerous position. Also, I look at Dumbledore as a General in a war. He made the plan and told his soldiers (Snape and Harry, Ron and Hermione) what to do and like soldiers they did it. It isn't like they didn't know they were going to be put in danger with what they signed up for. They all knew. Could Snape have been better equipped with the knowledge of the Elder Wand? Yes, I suppose so, but like any soldier, even someone who is a special ops kind of person, isn't going to know every phase of every plan, even if it puts them in danger. War is dangerous. There is no getting around that.

I also don't think that Snape looked at all foolish. He did the best he could with what he was given, and if he could have done more he probably would have done so without hesitation. I think Snape knew what he was getting into. The only thing that I think really threw him for a loop was Harry having to die, and I still don't think he looked foolish. really.

I edited that to clarify, but I guess you saw it before I did. I meant that Snape would feel foolish - not look foolish to us. We know he was betrayed, but he would feel foolish for having placed his faith in Dumbledore, imo.

To me, Dumbledore betrayed Snape - so the whole General of the Army idea doesn't work for me. You do not betray your own people, it is wrongful even for a general. If someone is facing death, imo, they should know it and not just in general terms. If Harry hadn't "happened" along at the right moment, Snape would not have been able to give him the message. While Dumbledore had a back up - his portrait - the fact remains that the 'job' Snape was supposed to do would have failed due to the fact that he didn't know what he was facing. Snape definitely knew time was winding down; he'd been searching for Harry and I suspect he thought Nagini would be encaged and went to Voldemort to ensure that was the case. He had no idea he'd go there and be killed - in my judgment - or he wouldn't have gone without making provisions to get the message to Harry.


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  #1459  
Old August 21st, 2008, 4:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
And we assume that he would wait months and months? He only had the Elder Wand for a couple of days before he was aware it was not working for him. As concerned as he was about it, I have to highly doubt he would wait long at all - more importantly, I don't think Dumbledore could rely on his doing so.
Yes, but it's the prior research, experimenting would still take some time... and to me if he didn't meet Harry's wand again, then he wouldn't have gone on such an earnest search for the Elder Wand, or pressed Ollivander to tell him more about it, so quickly.

Quote:
If 3rd years know a barrowed wand works worse than there own, how could Voldemort not know? Ollivander tells all the kids that when hey pick their wands. The one that chooses them works well, others don't. Remember when Harry had to go through several wands to finally find one that would work well for him?
Yes, I do. I also remember Voldemort thinking Lucius's wand would work for him, so some wands must work decently if not great for him to think that he would have been able to use that wand as good as any other.


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Well if that is true, I would not understand the passage in DH-The Elder Wand where Snape's face was like a death mask - marble white and so still that when he spoke, it was a shock to see that anyone lived behind the blank eyes. This occurred after Voldemort explained to him that he'd gotten the Elder Wand from Dumbledore's tomb and he had previously told Snape it was not working. Then Voldemort says "perhaps you already know it? You are a clever man, after all, Severus." Because Voldemort had already spelled it out and Snape knew in that moment Voldemort intended to kill him, believing him to be the master. It seems to me that Snape discovered Dumbledore's plan then and thus was hard pressed not to allow his emotions show at the betrayal.
I think you can read that passage more than one way. For the most part, I agree with you, but I have recently been looking at it a different way. That bit could be read as if he knew about it and was putting on an unreadable mask. The paleness of his features could indicate his knowledge that the time has come and his desperation to get to Harry. He keeps staring at Nagini and he keeps trying to let Voldemort let him go and get Harry. He seems almost distracted by it, until Voldemort brings up the Elder Wand, and then the death mask reference, which could in addition be foreshadowing his death, and is once again followed by:

"My Lord - let me go to the boy-"

You might say why didn't he raise his wand sooner if he knew that Voldemort was going to come after him, but I feel as though he's so used to just talking his way out of things that he doesn't take that course of action until the last moment, which is too late by that point.

Even so I'm still leaning towards him not knowing about the Elder Wand, but am open to the other possibility. However, I still don't see him feeling foolish or even betrayed. Feeling like he failed... yeah, that I'd buy.

Oh and I don't see Voldemort having spelled things out for Snape. Voldemort's line "Perhaps you already know it? You are a clever man, after all, Severus." Pretty much indicates that he hasn't spelled out the answer, since he's pointing out that he thinks Snape is clever enough to figure it out. The thing he hasn't mentioned is that he isn't the wand's master, and yeah maybe Snape has figured it out... perhaps figured it out or knew about it the moment it was brought up, the page before when his face looked like a death mask with blank eyes, perhaps even closing himself off from giving anything away.

Quote:
I edited that to clarify, but I guess you saw it before I did. I meant that Snape would feel foolish - not look foolish to us. We know he was betrayed, but he would feel foolish for having placed his faith in Dumbledore, imo.
Ah, I missed your edit. Sorry. I still don't really agree though. I don't think he was betrayed, nor do I think he felt foolish. I know not everyone will agree with me, but that's OK. From what I see, Snape agreed to do a job and he kept on doing it until the end, and he knew he was being kept in the dark on certain things and kept on doing the job he was asked to do. And he even knew that he could very well die doing this job, because if he didn't know this then he really was being foolish, which I don't think he was.

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To me, Dumbledore betrayed Snape - so the whole General of the Army idea doesn't work for me. You do not betray your own people, it is wrongful even for a general. If someone is facing death, imo, they should know it and not just in general terms.
I just don't see the betrayal. I see a plan that didn't quite go as well as it could have because it was so far reaching that it would have been difficult for it to go well, but still there was a chance and a hope for it to go better than it did.

Also, soldiers die all the time without expecting to or knowing what went wrong in the chain of events to cause it. And if one looks at it as Snape knowing about the Elder Wand or figuring it out at the last moments, he technically would know what his death was all about, even if it did end up not serving the purpose Voldemort thought it would. It still sucks for him because for a moment he probably thought he failed, but once he saw Harry at least he knew he could accomplish his mission, even if he couldn't keep his promise of protecting Harry from harm.


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If Harry hadn't "happened" along at the right moment, Snape would not have been able to give him the message. While Dumbledore had a back up - his portrait - the fact remains that the 'job' Snape was supposed to do would have failed due to the fact that he didn't know what he was facing.
Yeah, Harry just happening to be there was just luck. However, if by that time the Horcruxes were dwindled down to just Nagini, and Voldemort had not obtained or had not sufficiently used the Elder Wand, then Snape could have found Harry and delivered the message. It would have been possible if the timing (yes I'm back to that again) would have worked out.

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Snape definitely knew time was winding down; he'd been searching for Harry and I suspect he thought Nagini would be encaged and went to Voldemort to ensure that was the case. He had no idea he'd go there and be killed - in my judgment - or he wouldn't have gone without making provisions to get the message to Harry.
Well Voldemort called him, so he had to go. I think he just used it as an opportunity to check on Nagini and Voldemort's behavior towards her. And yeah, he had no idea he'd be killed, and the entire time he was at the shack he was trying to get out of there without blowing his cover.

Ah well, we probably aren't going to agree on a bunch of things so I'm just going to let this go for the moment. Thanks for the discussion, though.


  #1460  
Old August 21st, 2008, 6:14 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
From what I see, Snape agreed to do a job and he kept on doing it until the end, and he knew he was being kept in the dark on certain things and kept on doing the job he was asked to do. And he even knew that he could very well die doing this job, because if he didn't know this then he really was being foolish, which I don't think he was.
I think this is what Harry appreciates the most in retrospect, and where his evaluation of Snape to little Al comes from. What you just wrote, describes Harry's experience in DH to a T. And the last lie of Albus to both of these men, that Harry must die, is what enables them both to succeed. Harry lives and triumphs, which has been Snape's goal as well since the conversation after Lily's death.

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I just don't see the betrayal. I see a plan that didn't quite go as well as it could have because it was so far reaching that it would have been difficult for it to go well, but still there was a chance and a hope for it to go better than it did
.

I see where readers might suspect a betrayal, though I find the plans too labyrinthine to be credible. What I don't see is where Snape would get this notion that ALbus betrayed him. Assuming Snape does not know...he learns that Abus never told him that he, Albus, had a very special wand. And that Voldemort nonetheless figured it out. The simplest explanation for this set of circumstances is that Albus arranged for his special wand to be buried with him in hopes Voldemort did not know what it was, and did not tell Snape about it, because of Snape's regular and dangerous exposure to Voldemort. Albus has already told him there are secrets he will not share with him for this reason. And despite this precaution, Voldemort still learned Albus's secret.

I take Snape's paleness and other reactions here, to be fear that he will die before he completes his mission.

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It still sucks for him because for a moment he probably thought he failed, but once he saw Harry at least he knew he could accomplish his mission, even if he couldn't keep his promise of protecting Harry from harm.
I have to say that for me, this is the single saddest thing in the series. That for all his efforts, he dies believing that he has just brought about that which he worked all those years to prevent (Harry's death). And that's the "good" outcome for him. Argh.

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Yeah, Harry just happening to be there was just luck.
One could also say, that Snape's murder was bad luck. If Snape had seen Nagini with Voldemort before the battle, for whatever reason, he might have surrendered and passed on his information at Hogwarts, and never made it to the Shack.


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