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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1  
Old January 27th, 2010, 10:02 am
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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Welcome to the fourth instalment of this thread!


For reference:
version two
version three

DH scene:    


  Harry moved closer to the boy. Snape looked no more than nine or ten years old, sallow, small, stringy. There was undisguised greed in his thin face as he watched the younger of the two girls swinging higher and higher than her sister.

“Lily, don’t do it!” shrieked the elder of the two.

But the girl had let go of the swing at the very height of its arc and flown into the air, quite literally flown, launched herself skyward with a great shout of laughter, and instead of crumpling on the playground asphalt, she soared like a trapeze artist through the air, staying up far too long, landing far too lightly.

“Mummy told you not to!”

Petunia stopped her swing by dragging the heels of her sandals on the ground, making a crunching, grinding sound, then leapt up, hands on hips.

“Mummy said you weren’t allowed, Lily!”

“But I’m fine,” said Lily, still giggling. “Tuney, look at this. Watch what I can do.”

Petunia glanced around. The playground was deserted apart from themselves and, though the girls did not know it, Snape. Lily had picked up a fallen flower from the bush behind which Snape lurked. Petunia advanced, evidently torn between curiosity and disapproval. Lily waited until Petunia was near enough to have a clear view, then hold out her palm. The flower sat there, opening and closing its petals, like some bizarre, many-lipped oyster.

“Stop it!” shrieked Petunia.

“It’s not hurting you,” said Lily, but she closed her hand on the blossom and threw it back to the ground.

“It’s not right,” said Petunia, but her eyes had followed the flower’s flight to the ground and lingered upon it. “How do you do it?” she added, and there was a definite longing in her voice.

“It’s obvious, isn’t it?” Snape could no longer contain himself, but had jumped out from behind the bushes. Petunia shrieked and ran backward toward the swings, but Lily, though clearly startled, remained where she was. Snape seemed to regret his appearance. A dull flush of color mounted the sallow cheeks as he looked at Lily.

“What’s obvious?” asked Lily.

Snape had an air of nervous excitement. With a glance at the distant Petunia, now hovering beside the swings, he lowered his voice and said, “I know what you are.”

“What do you mean?”

“You’re…you’re a witch,” whispered Snape.

She looked affronted.

“That’s not a very nice thing to say to somebody!”

She turned, nose in the air, and marched off toward her sister.

“No!” said Snape. He was highly colored now, and Harry wondered why he did not take off the ridiculously large coat, unless it was because he did not want to reveal the smock beneath it. He flapped after the girls, looking ludicrously batlike, like his older self.

The sisters considered him, united in disapproval, both holding on to one of the swing poles as though it was the safe place in tag.

“You are,” said Snape to Lily. “You are a witch. I’ve been watching you for a while. But there’s nothing wrong with that. My mum’s one, and I’m a wizard.”

Petunia’s laugh was like cold water.

“Wizard!” she shrieked, her courage returned now that she had recovered from the shock of his unexpected appearance. “I know who you are. You’re that Snape boy! They live down Spinner’s End by the river,” she told Lily, and it was evident from her tone that she considered the address a poor recommendation. “Why have you been spying on us?”

“Haven’t been spying,” said Snape, hot and uncomfortable and dirty-haired in the bright sunlight. “Wouldn’t spy on you, anyway,” he added spitefully, “you’re a Muggle.”

Though Petunia evidently did not understand the word, she could hardly mistake the tone.

“Lily, come on, we’re leaving!” she said shrilly. Lily obeyed her sister at once, glaring at Snape as she left. He stood watching them as they marched through the playground gate, and Harry, the only one left to observe him, recognized Snape’s bitter disappointment, and understood that Snape had been planning this moment for a while, and that it had all gone wrong…
  


  • Why do you think did this encounter go 'wrong'?
  • How do you interpret Lily's behaviour here?
  • Why does Lily glare at Snape?
  • Has this scene changed your opinion of Lily and Snape's friendship?



Study questions:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Please remember to focus on how Snape's and Lily's relationship evolved and the impact that it had on both characters.


Also, please make sure to read REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray , In-Thread Moderator Warnings , and How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. before posting in this thread.


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  #2  
Old January 28th, 2010, 9:40 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I was torn between choosing "No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her." and "Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides*

I also chose "Kind of." I think the two of them had a lot to share with one another early in the friendship and that it did start out as a friendship of equals. But I think I'm more inclined with the first two I stated.


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  #3  
Old January 28th, 2010, 10:04 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I don't like the poll options. They seem kind of divisive to me My answer would be "He was as good a friend as he could manage - unfortunately, for those circumstances, it was not good enough." That he did care for Lily was obvious. But he was also oblivious to the rapidly growing drift between them. Amidst a war in which he was gravitating towards a side opposite to the one she naturally belonged to (being Muggle-born), the chances that this friendship would last were very slim. And yet I don't think he "should" have changed because of her - as I don't think Lily should have changed because of him. He likely didn't know or didn't stop to think about the full impact of his joining a group of blood supremacists - I think he probably saw it as his chance for a better life. On the other hand, Lily was in no way obliged to stick with him at all costs. In the end, their frienship just seems doomed to me no matter what.


  #4  
Old January 28th, 2010, 10:07 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I don't like the poll options.
Not even the pony option? I think everyone should check that box.


  #5  
Old January 28th, 2010, 12:48 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I voted the first option and the last two.

The first because I feel Snape was a good friend to Lily. He loved her and was devoted to her. No one could really be a better friend to Lily, because in canon after Snape there is no one who is mentioned as Lily's best friend.

The last two just because.


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  #6  
Old January 28th, 2010, 2:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

... In a way, this can be split between the time before and after her death. Because afterwards, "he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend" is very applicable, even if she was no longer around.

All in all, Pony option aside, I think Yoana brings up a good point. This isn't all black and white.


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  #7  
Old January 28th, 2010, 2:35 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I just went ahead and voted for the first two.

But not the pony. Or the . . . hell of a poll option . . . although it is.


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  #8  
Old January 28th, 2010, 2:51 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Since the poll does not specify any particular time frame and therefore leaves me to consider the series as a whole, I voted for the first option. As John 15:13 (King James translation) would put it, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."


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  #9  
Old January 28th, 2010, 2:55 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I must say, I agree with Yoana about the poll options.

However, I did choose "Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy." Although, I believe it was more complex than only jealousy, for example Snape genuinely feared Lily was being fooled by the Marauders. I also think the issue of House prejudice/hypocrisy was taking its heavy toll on the friendship.

Also, voted for "Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides*".

As there is no time frame so I was unsure whether to vote for "Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend", because after her death when he was on path to redemption I think he showed immense strength and devotion to her memory, despite the questionable way he dealt with his feelings toward Harry at times.



Last edited by Annielogic; January 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pm.
  #10  
Old January 28th, 2010, 3:00 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

On further thought, I chose the first and third options, along with the pony and "that's one hell of a poll."

I lean more toward the first overall, since Snape spent many more years working for the Order and protecting Harry in Lily's name, but find the third applicable to the teenage years-- although, like Annie, I think jealousy wasn't the only factor.


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  #11  
Old January 28th, 2010, 5:12 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I voted #3 (because he didn't listen to her, but to his jealosy) and #4 (because bigotry is downright unfriendly), #6 (Hmm), and #7(Pony!).

I would have also voted Yes, he was a good friend, because sometimes he was, but I didn't like the qualifiers for #1 and #2.


  #12  
Old January 28th, 2010, 5:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
... In a way, this can be split between the time before and after her death. Because afterwards, "he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend" is very applicable, even if she was no longer around.
I agree with this to some extent because I'm also reminded of how how he treated Harry. Not a good way to treat your best friend's son after their gone.

But anyway, I figure the poll referred to back when Lily was alive. Friendship is a two way street, so I would think you'd need both people present in a relationship in order for it to exist.


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  #13  
Old January 28th, 2010, 5:40 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

You know me, I thrive on controversy. The options used to be more elaborate but I had to shorten them on account of the word limit. So you have to make do with my controversial poll of ultimate controversy.

By the way, I voted for #3 and #4. And the pony, naturally. Although I agree that Snape had several reasons to be wary of the Marauders, he seemed to be most prepossessed - in the scenes we got to see in DH - by the thought of James fancying Lily and the possibility of her fancying James back. To me, this seems to be the main reason that he doesn't listen to her concerns and warnings.


  #14  
Old January 28th, 2010, 5:41 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
But anyway, I figure the poll referred to back when Lily was alive. Friendship is a two way street, so I would think you'd need both people present in a relationship in order for it to exist.
I would not entirely agree. I think Snape was acting as a good friend when he attempted to secure Albus's protection for Lily and her family. That Lily had made clear years ago that she wanted nothing further to do with him does not alter this, in my opinion.


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  #15  
Old January 28th, 2010, 5:47 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I would not entirely agree. I think Snape was acting as a good friend when he attempted to secure Albus's protection for Lily and her family. That Lily had made clear years ago that she wanted nothing further to do with him does not alter this, in my opinion.
I see Snape as devoted to some image he had of Lily, or to a former friendship that consisted of just him and her-- but I see that as very different than being her friend.


  #16  
Old January 28th, 2010, 5:49 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
I agree with this to some extent because I'm also reminded of how how he treated Harry. Not a good way to treat your best friend's son after their gone.

But anyway, I figure the poll referred to back when Lily was alive. Friendship is a two way street, so I would think you'd need both people present in a relationship in order for it to exist.
Well, Harry was a constant reminder of Lilly's relationship with James. Even though it's abundantly clear that Severus Snape wasn't friends with Harry Potter by any means, he did protect him throughout the series at great personal risk, from uttering a counter-curse against Quirrel's jinx to insisting on delivering Harry essential information before he had to flee after the other professors engaged him in a duel. It was never apparent until Harry viewed his memories in Dumbledore's Pensieve, because Snape still could not bring himself to show the son of James any friendly gestures, but he protected him in spite of this, redeeming himself by performing behind the scenes to help end the war.


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  #17  
Old January 28th, 2010, 6:28 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I would not entirely agree. I think Snape was acting as a good friend when he attempted to secure Albus's protection for Lily and her family. That Lily had made clear years ago that she wanted nothing further to do with him does not alter this, in my opinion.
That is true. And I wasn't trying to prove which view is right or wrong. I think it's evident he gave in so much after Lily was gone. It's just that my own thoughts to the question "Was he a good friend?" immediately went to the the time when the friendship and both parties were alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishSkinJer View Post
Well, Harry was a constant reminder of Lilly's relationship with James. Even though it's abundantly clear that Severus Snape wasn't friends with Harry Potter by any means, he did protect him throughout the series at great personal risk, from uttering a counter-curse against Quirrel's jinx to insisting on delivering Harry essential information before he had to flee after the other professors engaged him in a duel. It was never apparent until Harry viewed his memories in Dumbledore's Pensieve, because Snape still could not bring himself to show the son of James any friendly gestures, but he protected him in spite of this, redeeming himself by performing behind the scenes to help end the war.
I agree with all of this. However (and this may be due to our own personal take on critiquing one's attitudes), I personally do not excuse one's attitude/ bad actions towards another all because they did them a huge favor. Yes, Snape did all he could to protect Harry, and his efforts should be recognized. But the attitude I see from Snape in regards to Harry is one I see in real life; that because he's doing something for Harry's own benefit, this justifies whatever mean action/words Snape chooses to inflict on him. Personally, this attitude never sits well with me. If someone is going to be this bitter towards another, they should never have taken the task on in the first place.

I'm not saying that Snape had to like the kid. Snape could have just ignored him or not bother to talk to him much, and still do the job he had to do. But it's shown in the story that he personally picks on Harry. Again, this is not how one should treat the child of the someone they claim to love dearly.

But all of this is just my personal take on the matter.


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In slow motion the flowers fell from my head an shattered like glass. And when I looked into the mirror, I was a beautiful milkmaid. Then I woke up crying, and I don’t know why. ~Snape from Potter Puppet Pals



"In a lot of cases I think being the canon love interest for a much-beloved male character is the female character's death sentence." ~ thirty2flavors regarding the hate of female characters in fandom




~I'm Lily's best friend because she doesn't have one.~
  #18  
Old January 28th, 2010, 7:38 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
That is true. And I wasn't trying to prove which view is right or wrong. I think it's evident he gave in so much after Lily was gone. It's just that my own thoughts to the question "Was he a good friend?" immediately went to the the time when the friendship and both parties were alive.


I agree with all of this. However (and this may be due to our own personal take on critiquing one's attitudes), I personally do not excuse one's attitude/ bad actions towards another all because they did them a huge favor. Yes, Snape did all he could to protect Harry, and his efforts should be recognized. But the attitude I see from Snape in regards to Harry is one I see in real life; that because he's doing something for Harry's own benefit, this justifies whatever mean action/words Snape chooses to inflict on him. Personally, this attitude never sits well with me. If someone is going to be this bitter towards another, they should never have taken the task on in the first place.

I'm not saying that Snape had to like the kid. Snape could have just ignored him or not bother to talk to him much, and still do the job he had to do. But it's shown in the story that he personally picks on Harry. Again, this is not how one should treat the child of the someone they claim to love dearly.

But all of this is just my personal take on the matter.
Well I think you hit the nail on the head Raven.


  #19  
Old January 28th, 2010, 10:31 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I don't like the poll options. They seem kind of divisive to me My answer would be "He was as good a friend as he could manage - unfortunately, for those circumstances, it was not good enough." That he did care for Lily was obvious. But he was also oblivious to the rapidly growing drift between them. Amidst a war in which he was gravitating towards a side opposite to the one she naturally belonged to (being Muggle-born), the chances that this friendship would last were very slim. And yet I don't think he "should" have changed because of her - as I don't think Lily should have changed because of him. He likely didn't know or didn't stop to think about the full impact of his joining a group of blood supremacists - I think he probably saw it as his chance for a better life. On the other hand, Lily was in no way obliged to stick with him at all costs. In the end, their frienship just seems doomed to me no matter what.
Very well stated, Yoana.

I didn't vote for any of the poll options because none of them expressed my opinion of their friendship. I agree with Yoana's opinion of the Sev/Lily friendship.


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Last edited by snapes_witch; January 28th, 2010 at 10:35 pm.
  #20  
Old January 28th, 2010, 11:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Since the poll does not specify any particular time frame and therefore leaves me to consider the series as a whole, I voted for the first option. As John 15:13 (King James translation) would put it, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
I voted for kind of...then I saw this. It is true that Snape did lay his whole life down for Lily and changed sides all for her. I am starting to rethink. But I still think Snape should have listened to Lily. If he did they would still have been friends and he wouldn't have to worry about being a double agent later on. I also think that maybe Lily might have ended up with Snape rather than James if that were to happen. A weird thought...


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