Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



View Poll Results: Snape's main feeling for James would be...
Loathing 25 15.53%
Contempt 16 9.94%
Envy 27 16.77%
Hatred 17 10.56%
Jealousy 59 36.65%
Regret 0 0%
You're evil for restricting the options and not even putting up my favourite. 17 10.56%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
  #1421  
Old August 20th, 2008, 6:47 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4743 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I also don't think Lily copied off Snape. I think there is a lot of difference between copying and learning, and then, being intelligent enough to apply that knowledge to one's own work. That IMO would not come under the heading freeloading or copying.

I also don't think Lily's work was dependent on Snape. If that were the case, then yes, her work would have plummeted once she broke off from him. But I don't really think it is wrong to learn or understand lessons form a friend. That's what friends are for, sharing. Here Snape may have shared his knowledge with Lily. Is it so wrong? I cannot think so.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
Sponsored Links
  #1422  
Old August 20th, 2008, 7:58 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5768 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Lily had her own skills, otherwise she wouldn't have done well in her sixth and seventh year. She didn't need Snape to help her. I rather like the idea that she was capable on her own. It could be just as likely that Snape learned off of her or his mother.

I never like seeing the idea that a female needed help from the male to succeed. One of the things JKR showed us in this series was that there were talented witches who were as good or better than the males.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
  #1423  
Old August 20th, 2008, 8:43 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4743 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Lily had her own skills, otherwise she wouldn't have done well in her sixth and seventh year.
We don't know he well she did, but I agree with you she would have done well. I also think she was intelligent.

Quote:
She didn't need Snape to help her.
I think she needed Snape, but probably as a friend, and not as say like Ron would have needed Hermione to help him with his studies IMO.

Quote:
I rather like the idea that she was capable on her own.
I think she was. Just because she learned things from another person does not make her less capable IMO.

Quote:
be just as likely that Snape learned off of her or his mother.
I agree that is also a possibility, but the handwriting which seems to be clearly of Snape's and Snape's own declaration that he created the spells (the potions corrections too were made by the same handwriting) disproves this IMO.

Quote:
I never like seeing the idea that a female needed help from the male to succeed.
Oh! I am afraid this never occured to me. I thought of one friend teaching, telling and discussing about what he had understood of a potion, subject, spell or Azkaban to another friend he thought of most highly.

Male and female never occured to me.

Quote:
One of the things JKR showed us in this series was that there were talented witches who were as good or better than the males.
Sure there were; I agree with you! Harry would have never won the war without Hermione. I am sure of that. And Harry was the Hero of the series.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #1424  
Old August 20th, 2008, 9:51 am
kittling's Avatar
kittling  Female.gif kittling is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4396 days
Location: UK
Posts: 1,071
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

If something is an integral part of something it does mean that that particular something is essential for the whole. It does not mean that every other part of the whole is irrelevant or that no other part can be integral. For example spark plugs are integral to the running of a combustion engine, but so are lots of other components spark plugs on their own do make a functioning combustion engine!

Praising one persons intelligence does not mean all others are automatically dumb, nor does it mean that the praised person is the only intelligent person in the world (or the book) otherwise the world would be in a very different state!

The same is true of Snape when some praises his intellect it does not mean that he is the only intelligent person I the book – and I don’t think I have ever seen anyone make that claim. What I do see however is people bridling when his is praised as if it attacks the intellect of other characters – which I can’t honestly say I understand.

Saying Snape is integral to the defeat of Voldemort is in my opinion very accurate, it does not mean that many other characters were also integral – so I find it very confusing that people seem to see this as a slight on the importance of other characters.

Why? I am really confused about this.


__________________


My Fanfic - The Silver Thread - (WIP) updated 03/07/09

Sig by the most professional, clever & witty Boushh
(Original photo-manipulation of AR by helin)
  #1425  
Old August 20th, 2008, 10:10 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5768 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
The same is true of Snape when some praises his intellect it does not mean that he is the only intelligent person I the book – and I don’t think I have ever seen anyone make that claim.
Actually, several posters have said exactly that in the last few pages, which is why I have responded. In fact, I typically don't get motivated to post until I see a claim that I think is over the top or unsubstantiated. I have no trouble acknowledging Snape's talent or intelligent, or that he made important contributions to the storyline. It's when superlatives are applied, stating he was the most or the best or at something (i.e. most important, best talented, etc.), that I object. For instance, I even saw one post that placed Snape above Dumbledore in intelligence and talent. Considering how highly revered and respected Dumbledore was by the entire wizarding world, that claim seems hard to justify via canon. Naturally, folks are entitled to their own opinions, but I think that ranking characters is unneeded and potentially divisive. This is just my own opinion.

Others have stated that his contributions to the story were the most crucial. But there are multiple candidates for that, including Harry and Dumbledore. Nor was his sacrifice that different from several other characters. He did make a large sacrifice. I just don't think his sacrifice was the largest, nor do I think we need to identify which sacrifice was the largest or most important, since that is entirely subjective.

There are so many important characters, that it seems pointless to try to elevate one character over another. Frankly, I don't see the need to do that, especially since it often means that other important characters have to be diminished or ignored to prove the point. Why not appreciate all the characters for their contributions and abilities? Once superlatives are applied to any character, it takes on the air of a contest, and someone's favorite character will be slighted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Saying Snape is integral to the defeat of Voldemort is in my opinion very accurate, it does not mean that many other characters were also integral – so I find it very confusing that people seem to see this as a slight on the importance of other characters.
Saying he was integral is fine. Claiming that he was the most integral is unneeded. It's the superlatives that I object to. There is no way to rank the characters fairly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Oh! I am afraid this never occured to me. I thought of one friend teaching, telling and discussing about what he had understood of a potion, subject, spell or Azkaban to another friend he thought of most highly.
He told her about Azkaban before she went to Hogwarts. However, the comments I was responding to seemed to indicate that she learned her potions skills from Snape. Most likely they shared a talent and interest in potions, and she didn't need to learn or be taught by him. Their shared potions skills might have been the only thing that kept them as friends once they were at Hogwarts and in different houses. However, stating that he taught her and that she learned potions from him does diminish her own talents, making her seem rather weak as a result. We have no canon that she needed to rely on others to be considered talented.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true

Last edited by ComicBookWorm; August 20th, 2008 at 1:43 pm.
  #1426  
Old August 20th, 2008, 11:04 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4743 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

When Snape or indeed any character is praised in terms of crucial contribution, I think it is because their contribution was crucial. I think examples were given of Kingsley, Moody, Remus and others, working in the Ministry and with the werewolves, not to mention Harry, Hermione and Ron who were also important. of course so was Dumbeldore IMO.

Among all these people it is my personal opinion that Snape and Dumbledore were the most important, followed by Remus's work with the werewolves (far behind though, because we don't see anything which came out of this which Dumbledore used in the war and his work did not continue after Dumbledore's death) and others IMO.

I realise I am guilty of just what you have mentioned.

But I do have my reasons for it of course, just as others have theirs for thinking Snape was just another guy who did his job, and Dumbeldore yet another one who worked for the Light IMO.

The working in the Order was divided into those working in the Ministry, one man (Remus) working with the werewolves and one spy (Snape) working with Voldemort. Dumbedlore was the master strategist who controlled all of these people and planned his war based on the findings of all of them. Harry was the tool through which he delivered IMO.

While Kingsley, Arthur, Tonks and others worked in the Ministry and got information, and Remus worked with the werewolves, I cannot help but feel that Snape's job was the most important.

Why?

If Kingsley could not do his job, there were others in the Order who were in the Ministry who could do that for Dumbledore. Dumbledore himself could pull strings in the Ministry, perhaps not with Fudge, but with many others. There was no one who could take Remus's place, but we don;t know how helpful Remus's work was for Dumbedlore, because once Dumbeldore died, Remus's work also came to a halt and nothing came out of it IMO.

But Snape was in a position that was very important to the fulfilment of Dumbledore's plans as we saw it in the books. Of course Dumbledore could have planned in another way, where he need not have used Snape at all IMO.

But in the books we saw that Snape was needed in Hogwarts to protect the students for a whole year. Ginny, Neville and Luna were saved because he sent them to Hagrid; He was also important to stay with Voldmoret as a trusted followe so that he could hand over the EW to him. That was another important job, which Snape alone could do (while Snape did that without his knowledge IMO); to pass on the information to Harry; another very crucial job that no one else in the set up we saw could have done. Without that and handing over of the EW to Voldemort this war would have seen many more deaths IMO.

The way the books are written these jobs were jobs only Snape could have done; not to mention getting information and passing disinformation to Voldemort; another thing only Snape could have done IMO.

And it is my opinion that without these acts the war would not have been won. Not the way it was.

While I do agree that every one who contributed to the war effort, even Dung (for the 7 Potters) without which too, the war would not have been won so easily; the difference IMO is that while every one of them who fought for the Light were necessary to win the war against Voldemort, Snape IMO was crucial.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #1427  
Old August 20th, 2008, 11:10 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5768 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape IMO was crucial.
More than one character was crucial. Dumbledore was crucial. Harry was crucial. Hermione was crucial. Even Ron was crucial. So was Neville. And Snape was crucial. Without the contributions by the above characters, Voldemort would have won. And that's not all the characters who were crucial.

I'm sorry, I don't want to engage in a debate about which character was the most important. I think it's unnecessary. That's what I've been trying to convey.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true

Last edited by ComicBookWorm; August 20th, 2008 at 12:54 pm.
  #1428  
Old August 20th, 2008, 1:29 pm
wingardium713  Undisclosed.gif wingardium713 is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4296 days
Posts: 322
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Is learning from a friend equal to lack of character?
It is if she uses the potions he invented to claim glory without giving him credit while he is standing in the room.

Imagine if he had written a bunch of essays the summer between 4th and 5th year, she had copied them down in her notebook and handed them in as if they were her own work. Then, while he was standing in the room knowing what she had done, the teacher lauded her with accolades while she said nothing. Now imagine that she did this for two years when she wasn't even friends with him.

If Lily relied on copied down or memorised versions of the potions that Snape developed, she was using his creations for gaining marks and glory. The potion modifications he made were fairly specific and weren't just remembering to "always dice roots in such-and-such a way". To use the essay example, it would be fine for her to put facts in her essay which she learned from Snape, but not to use his unique theories or copied down phrases without giving credit (IMO). The potion modifications written in the book are specific to the potion and constitute a creation on his part (IMO).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I respectfully disagree. And should Lily forget all that she had learnt from Snape, because she broke away from him? I'm sorry, but I don't understand. Should Lily forget about Azkaban, dementors and everything she learnt from Snape?
No. It would be impossible to do that, in my opinion. I'm saying that she should not follow the potion recipes he invented without giving him due credit especially after they stopped being friends. It was suggested by somebody here that Lily did well in potions because she used the recipes he invented (that she used his book to get good marks and get praised by Slughron). If you are suggesting that she just got by on general knowledge (e.g. Monkshood and Wolfsbane are the same plant) that he taught her, I have no problem with that. If she is using the potion modifications he invented (either because she memorised them or copied them down) without credit, then she is doing something wrong, in my opinion. That's the difference to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
We were never told that Lily copied off of Snape, and that would have been important knowledge for us to know, since it would have been a parallel to Harry. Also, Lily and Snape stopped being friends in their fifth year. Lily's skill with potions would have plummeted, just like Harry's did when he stopped using Snape's potion book, if she was only using what she learned from Snape.
I agree completely. I don't believe canon supports the belief that Lily only got good marks because she was copying off Snape's work. Since not everything is spelled out in the books, people can always develop theories to fill in the gaps, but I personally cannot agree with that one.


__________________
How many times do I have to tell you I ordered DECAF?!?!?!

Last edited by wingardium713; August 20th, 2008 at 2:07 pm.
  #1429  
Old August 20th, 2008, 2:37 pm
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5061 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

AAAAARGH! I typed this whole post out and then my computer went crazy on me and I lost it and had to type it all over again. *tears out hair*

I think the relationship, when it came to potions, was symbiotic. I agree with those who say that Lily would never copy off Severus without giving credit. But there's "copied off" and then there's "given helpful tips". If Severus offered her help, Lily would probably accept it. And should Severus need help, Lily would be willing to offer her advice as well.

It's actually quite common for help to be given without the Potionmaker revealing who helped with what. In PoA, Neville didn't mention that Hermione helped him with his Shrinking Solution, and Draco didn't sing Harry's and Ron's praises for preparing his ingredients in the same book. Nor did Harry mention that he would have added the wrong ingredient to his Strengthening Solution in OotP if Hermione hadn't called him on it. In fact, Hermione corrects a lot of Harry's and Ron's homework, but they don't put a tiny line on the bottom saying "Edited by Hermione Granger". The students seem to look out for each other on little things like that without credit being given. It's huge things, like Harry's use of all the HBP's instructions without crediting him, that seem to blur the line, and not small things like "use a quart of troll phlegm instead".

I think it very likely that Lily and Severus both worked together on Potions. Slughorn didn't sing both their praises in HBP for nothing. He was foreshadowing a relationship, one that Potions could certainly have strengthened.


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP

Last edited by ignisia; August 20th, 2008 at 2:41 pm.
  #1430  
Old August 20th, 2008, 3:29 pm
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 6091 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignisia
I think it very likely that Lily and Severus both worked together on Potions. Slughorn didn't sing both their praises in HBP for nothing. He was foreshadowing a relationship, one that Potions could certainly have strengthened.
Excellent point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green Woods
But Snape was in a position that was very important to the fulfilment of Dumbledore's plans as we saw it in the books. Of course Dumbledore could have planned in another way, where he need not have used Snape at all IMO.
I've been studying the Elder Wand fiasco today, and that's another reason Snape is crucial.

The progression of the Elder Wand is:

Gregorovitch-Grindelwald-Dumbledore-(almost Snape)-Draco-(Voldemort in possession only)-Harry

Those are all the people, and the only people, involved in the Elder Wand plotline, and that is crucial to the story up till the final showdown.

The Elder Wand is the way Voldemort is actually vanquished in the end. A little stick of wood with a brain who recognizes a Master. That is why Harry could not be killed by the Elder Wand in Voldemort's possession.

Voldemort thought that by killing Snape he would be invincible, but that wasn't true. So Snape did play a crucial role in that, even though his death was senseless. Dumbledore says in King's Cross that he meant for Snape to get the wand. Whether he meant that he wanted Snape to give it to Voldemort as some sort of gift, or whether he meant for Snape to be killed by Voldemort, is debatable. But either way, the progression of Dumbledore's plan was that Snape should have been Master of the Elder Wand, but Draco messed up the plan. However, it all worked together so that Harry survived, which was always Snape's goal.

And Draco also stays alive because Voldemort thinks Snape is the Master and never thinks about Draco. Voldie thinks death is the only way to "defeat" a wizard, even though Gregorovitch and Grindelwald survived stunning and a duel respectively.

If anyone can tell me someone else involved in the Elder Wand plot, please do. After reading about this most of the night, though, it's clear to me that only crucial characters are involved in that plotline.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon

Last edited by silver ink pot; August 20th, 2008 at 3:36 pm.
  #1431  
Old August 20th, 2008, 3:40 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5364 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

It's not clear Albus intended Snape to be Master of the Elder Wand. Harry suggests that Snape's killing of Dumbledore was expected to destroy the wand's power, by permitting Albus to die undefeated. This of course in no way removes Snape from that plotline, either way Snape's choice to kill Albus was vital to Dumbledore's plan.

On the subject of the Elder Wand, too, it is my opinion that if Albus had died of the ring curse, the wand's mastery would have passed to Voldemort, who cast that curse. So even before he killed Albus, Snape had already prevented that particular disaster, by saving him.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #1432  
Old August 20th, 2008, 3:57 pm
kittling's Avatar
kittling  Female.gif kittling is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4396 days
Location: UK
Posts: 1,071
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
On the subject of the Elder Wand, too, it is my opinion that if Albus had died of the ring curse, the wand's mastery would have passed to Voldemort, who cast that curse.

Ekk... doesn't that also mean that it was even more important for Snape to kill Dumbledore? Because Snape did not stop the cures the ring inflicted but slowed it down dramatically, so had Dumbledore died either from that or the potion from the cave then the want would have passed to Voldemort. which may have further motivated Dumbledore into making his request to Snape.


__________________


My Fanfic - The Silver Thread - (WIP) updated 03/07/09

Sig by the most professional, clever & witty Boushh
(Original photo-manipulation of AR by helin)
  #1433  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:00 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5364 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Ekk... doesn't that also mean that it was even more important for Snape to kill Dumbledore? Because Snape did not stop the cures the ring inflicted but slowed it down dramatically, so had Dumbledore died either from that or the potion from the cave then the want would have passed to Voldemort. which may have further motivated Dumbledore into making his request to Snape.
Yes, that's how I see it. It was a lot to ask, but I don't think Albus had much of a choice. His mistake with the ring forced his hand to a great extent.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #1434  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:02 pm
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 6091 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
It's not clear Albus intended Snape to be Master of the Elder Wand. Harry suggests that Snape's killing of Dumbledore was expected to destroy the wand's power, by permitting Albus to die undefeated. This of course in no way removes Snape from that plotline, either way Snape's choice to kill Albus was vital to Dumbledore's plan.

On the subject of the Elder Wand, too, it is my opinion that if Albus had died of the ring curse, the wand's mastery would have passed to Voldemort, who cast that curse. So even before he killed Albus, Snape had already prevented that particular disaster, by saving him.
Awesome! I never thought of that!

There's a little contradiction in the book about Snape and the Elder Wand. When Harry is in King's Cross, Dumbledore says he meant for Snape to get the wand, but when Harry confronts Voldemort, he says that Dumbledore meant for the wand's power to end with his death.

But earlier Dumbledore talked to Snape (Prince's Tale) about the possibility that Fenrir and Bellatrix would torture and mutilate his body. So if he expected them to be around at his death, then he might have realized one of them might pass along the Elder Wand to Voldemort, or that Snape would be forced to. Either way, Snape was in a precarious position because he had "killed" Dumbledore. Draco's spell threw it all into confusion, but the outcome might have been the same for Snape even without Draco.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #1435  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:03 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5226 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
It's not clear Albus intended Snape to be Master of the Elder Wand. Harry suggests that Snape's killing of Dumbledore was expected to destroy the wand's power, by permitting Albus to die undefeated. This of course in no way removes Snape from that plotline, either way Snape's choice to kill Albus was vital to Dumbledore's plan.
I more than agree; in fact I think the canon makes it clear that Dumbledore did not intend for Snape to be the Master of the Elder Wand. First, because Harry didn't merely suggest that Dumbledore believed that the power of the wand would die with him, but stated it as a fact during the battle. That is because Dumbledore told him flat out that he'd taken the wand to save others from it (which would include Snape and every other living soul.) Second, Dumbledore told Harry that he intended for Snape to have the wand. Dumbledore also knew that Voledmort would know all about the wand and seek it obsessively (DH Kings Cross.) So it was that he knew Snape would be believed to be the master of it having killed him and in possession of it, imo.

As you point out, either way, Snape would be believed the master by Voldemort, so Snape was definitely tied to that portion of the storyline.

Quote:
On the subject of the Elder Wand, too, it is my opinion that if Albus had died of the ring curse, the wand's mastery would have passed to Voldemort, who cast that curse. So even before he killed Albus, Snape had already prevented that particular disaster, by saving him.
I would respectfully disagree on two technical points; 1) Snape did not prevent it because Dumbledore was still dying - he simply delayed it. If Snape could not have elongated Dumbledore's life, and he could not find another who could, then we do not have any idea what Dumbledore would have decided to do. It was Dumbledore alone that prevented the passing of the Elder Wand via the hand curse - 2) and then only if it would have indeed passed to Voldemort on that very tenuous technicality. Voldemort was not even aware that Dumbledore had the Horcrux, so he would not be aware that Dumbledore's death was his doing. We have no evidence in canon that the wand will transfer if the party who kills the holder is not even aware they have done so. Even in the weird transfer of the wand from Harry to Draco, we see that Harry meant to defeat Draco for his wand and knew he had done so.

On another point, Dumbledore did not ask Snape to take the responsibility of believing to be the master of the Elder Wand in canon. If JKR wished to hold Dumbledore in the clear for this, she would have definitely included a conversation between Snape and Dumbledore on this point. This is WAY too big of an issue for her to brush under the table in terms of our assuming Dumbledore and Snape had some conversation about it off page. I think Dumbledore was hopeful that either Voldemort would never locate the wand or spare Snape via disarming him or something - but he also knew Voldemort better than anyone else, so he would have known the possibility was very slim (he indicated Voldemort would obsess over locating it to the degree he obsessed over killing Harry - and he knew he killed rather than showed mercy when given the choice.) Dumbledore set Snape up for the kill without disclosure as far as canon gives us information, imo, and despite Snape's position as a spy and keeping the information from him in that regard being the best option from a "greater good" aspect; it was unfair and immoral in terms of Snape's life, imo, for Dumbledore to have done so.

We heard Dumbledore tell Snape that he was to give Harry the message when nagini was protected by Voldemort. Not when Voldemort found the Elder Wand. And that is where the plotline falters because if Voldemort found it prior to encaging Nagini, he would have killed Snape without the need to do so (he would only protect Nagini once he discovered all of his horcruxes had been destroyed.)


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 20th, 2008 at 4:17 pm.
  #1436  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:05 pm
DeathlyH's Avatar
DeathlyH  Male.gif DeathlyH is offline
Defender of Dogs
 
Joined: 4796 days
Location: In a dream
Posts: 2,129
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I never really got the impression that Snape killing Dumbledore actually mattered at all, since Draco ended up Master of the Elder Wand before he was dead anyways.

And I agree with ComicBoowWorm. Saying that Snape was so much more integral than everybody else really isn't true IMO. If not for Dumbledore and his plan, nothing Snape had done would have mattered. And Harry was the one who actually carried out the plan, with some major help from Ron and Hermione. Neville destroyed one of the Horcruxes. Crabbe, Aberforth, Kingsley, Dobby, and countless others were all also integral to Voldemort's downfall. It's not fair to give Snape that much credit when he was only one of several.


  #1437  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:15 pm
wingardium713  Undisclosed.gif wingardium713 is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4296 days
Posts: 322
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I think the relationship, when it came to potions, was symbiotic. I agree with those who say that Lily would never copy off Severus without giving credit. But there's "copied off" and then there's "given helpful tips". If Severus offered her help, Lily would probably accept it. And should Severus need help, Lily would be willing to offer her advice as well.
I agree completely. Students helping each other is fine in my book. Not only does it help the one student learn (which is the primary purpose of school, isn't it?), but it also tends to help the student doing the helping. Most people find that they understand a concept better if they have to help somebody else learn it. I think that Lily would accept help/advice from Snape when they were friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
It's actually quite common for help to be given without the Potionmaker revealing who helped with what. In PoA, Neville didn't mention that Hermione helped him with his Shrinking Solution, and Draco didn't sing Harry's and Ron's praises for preparing his ingredients in the same book. .
LOL Well, Snape already knew Hermione was helping Neville and Ron/Harry weren't exactly doing a praise-worthy job of helping Draco (so Snape made Ron give Draco his own roots...again, Snape knew about the help so Draco didn't have to give credit). But, I do get your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Nor did Harry mention that he would have added the wrong ingredient to his Strengthening Solution in OotP if Hermione hadn't called him on it. In fact, Hermione corrects a lot of Harry's and Ron's homework, but they don't put a tiny line on the bottom saying "Edited by Hermione Granger". The students seem to look out for each other on little things like that without credit being given.
Yep. And I think all those things are fine (some might disagree with me, though). It helps everybody to learn. I think Hermione was right not to let people copy directly off of her and to make them at least try to do the assignment on their own first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
It's huge things, like Harry's use of all the HBP's instructions without crediting him, that seem to blur the line, and not small things like "use a quart of troll phlegm instead".
I agree. Harry stepped over the line with the use of the HBP potions book. If he had shown the book to Slughorn and said that he planned on continuing to use the HBP's modified recipes, I think he would have been on the right side of things. Who knows, Slughorn himself might have learned something from reading the book and the entire class would have benifited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I think it very likely that Lily and Severus both worked together on Potions. Slughorn didn't sing both their praises in HBP for nothing. He was foreshadowing a relationship, one that Potions could certainly have strengthened.
I would agree that they did this for the first 5 years, but I think that the relationship was so fractured at the end of their 5th year that Lily would have found a new potions partner for 6th and 7th year. If Lily and Snape had have continued to be potions partner, I think that Snape would have been less wounded by the loss of friendship than he was. It seemed like that the Mudblood indicident was the end of their friendship. I think that they were always cordial to each other, but I don't think that they were ever close again. If they had gotten close again, SWM wouldn't be his worst memory, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
The progression of the Elder Wand is:

Gregorovitch-Grindelwald-Dumbledore-(almost Snape)-Draco-(Voldemort in possession only)-Harry
Pretty much. I think it's more like:
Gregorovitch-Grindelwald-Dumbledore-Draco-(appears to be Snape) - (Voldemort in possession only)-Harry


Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Dumbledore says in King's Cross that he meant for Snape to get the wand. Whether he meant that he wanted Snape to give it to Voldemort as some sort of gift, or whether he meant for Snape to be killed by Voldemort, is debatable. But either way, the progression of Dumbledore's plan was that Snape should have been Master of the Elder Wand, but Draco messed up the plan.
I think that Dumbledore intended for the power of the Elder Wand to be destroyed when he died because nobody defeated him in a duel (just as Harry was not defeated when he was AK'ed because he wasn't dueling. Plus, Snape was following Dumbedore's instruction so how could he be defeating Dumbledore in a duel?). I do think that Dumbledore realized that he was putting Snape at risk of death by giving the impression that Snape was the Master of the Elder Wand, but I don't think he ever intended for Snape to be the actual Master of the Elder Wand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
And Draco also stays alive because Voldemort thinks Snape is the Master and never thinks about Draco. Voldie thinks death is the only way to "defeat" a wizard, even though Gregorovitch and Grindelwald survived stunning and a duel respectively.
Even if Voldemort had figured out that Draco was the Master of the Elder Wand, it would have been too late. By the time that Voldemort figured out that killing Grindelwald and stealing the wand from Dumbledore's grave was not sufficient to make him the Master of the Elder Wand, Draco had already lost the Elder Wand to Harry (Harry became Master before the wand was stolen from the grave). Voldemort would have just killed Draco instead of Snape if he'd figured out that Draco not Snape had become the Master that night on the Astronomy tower. I don't think that Voldemort would have been able to make the leap from Draco to Harry without it being explained to him. Harry did not take the Elder Wand from Draco and Voldemort doesn't seem to understand wandlore that well. He might not even be aware of the exact circumstances under which Draco lost his wand. Why would he care at that point in the story? He was under the impression that stealing the wand from Dumbledore was his next course of action after Malfoy Manor. So, in the end, the Snape-is-the-Master-of-the-Elder-Wand bluff saved Draco. I think Voldemort would still have been oblivious to the fact that Harry was the Master when he started to duel him.

There are other elements to Snape's death that are important though, in my opinion. If Snape hadn't have died in the Shrieking Shack, it would have been difficult for him to have passed on the memories to Harry...when else would he have had the chance to sneak back into the castle after he'd escaped the first time? So, that is why, in my opinion, it is important for Voldemort to think that Snape is the Master of the Edler Wand (for the memories, not to hide the fact that Harry is the Master). Still, I don't think Dumbledore could have planned any of that. In fact, it seems kind of risky to set up the Snape-is-the-Master-of-the-Elder-Wand bluff when Snape is also the Keeper-of-the-Plan.


__________________
How many times do I have to tell you I ordered DECAF?!?!?!
  #1438  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:16 pm
kittling's Avatar
kittling  Female.gif kittling is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4396 days
Location: UK
Posts: 1,071
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Voldemort was not even aware that Dumbledore had the Horcrux, so he would not be aware that Dumbledore's death was his doing. We have no evidence in canon that the wand will transfer if the party who kills the holder is not even aware they have done so. Even in the weird transfer of the wand from Harry to Draco, we see that Harry meant to defeat Draco for his wand and knew he had done so.
Well I think it could be argued that it's not about what the holder, or potential holder, of the wand knows - its what the wand knows that matters.

Draco had no idea that he was the master of the elder wand and niether did Harry at first yet the wand still changed its loyalties. Given this it would e fair to assume that had Dumbledore died from the cursed ring the wand would have changed its loyalties regardless of Voldemorts knowledge or lack there of.


__________________


My Fanfic - The Silver Thread - (WIP) updated 03/07/09

Sig by the most professional, clever & witty Boushh
(Original photo-manipulation of AR by helin)
  #1439  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:24 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4743 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
There's a little contradiction in the book about Snape and the Elder Wand. When Harry is in King's Cross, Dumbledore says he meant for Snape to get the wand, but when Harry confronts Voldemort, he says that Dumbledore meant for the wand's power to end with his death.
I think Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him only for the Elder Wand. He chose Snape because Snape was the only person who could "hand over" the wand to Voldemort when the time came and fool Voldemort into thinking he was the actual Master.

zg's point :: but what would have been the effect if Dumbledore killed himself? Then he would have remained as the Master of the EW or would he not?

Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders. And because of that Snape would never become the Master of the EW. So DUmbledore could kill himself in such a way that the ownership of the wand would be safe with him, if Snape was not needed for handing over the EW to Voldmeort. There was no necessity to make Snape a killer IMO.

That is why I think Dumbledore did not use Snape for the horcrux curse; he asked Snape to kill him only to make sure that Snape would hand the EW to Voldmeort.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #1440  
Old August 20th, 2008, 4:25 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5226 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Well I think it could be argued that it's not about what the holder, or potential holder, of the wand knows - its what the wand knows that matters.

Draco had no idea that he was the master of the elder wand and niether did Harry at first yet the wand still changed its loyalties. Given this it would e fair to assume that had Dumbledore died from the cursed ring the wand would have changed its loyalties regardless of Voldemorts knowledge or lack there of.
It could be argued of course; it is just that there is no evidence that the wand would ever transfer under those circumstances. We have never had it transfer when the party who became the owner had no knowledge that they had defeated the previous owner in some way - and indeed set out to do so. This includes stealing from the person, disarming them, winning a serious duel, etc. The wand has some sentience according to JKR and it seeks strength, not an unknowing winner by default.

Nonetheless, that circumstance would have nothing whatsoever to do with Snape because as I pointed out, he did not prevent Dumbledore from dying; he only delayed it. If he could not have delayed Dumbledore from dying and what you propose is a possibility, Dumbledore would have acted in some way to ensure it did not transfer to Voldemort - even if it meant convincing Snape to kill him on the spot.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 20th, 2008 at 4:29 pm.
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks

Tags
character analysis, severus snape


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:26 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.