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Little Questions Answered v.20



 
 
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  #1301  
Old August 7th, 2012, 5:12 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

Why protect the prophecy at all? Only Harry and Voldemort can retrieve it, and Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was too haughty to get it himself. The protections on the prophecies seemed to be very effective without the Order guarding it. And telling Harry what was up would have put him on guard for just the sort of trick that was used.


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  #1302  
Old August 7th, 2012, 7:23 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

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Originally Posted by Dedalus Diggle View Post
Why protect the prophecy at all? Only Harry and Voldemort can retrieve it, and Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was too haughty to get it himself. The protections on the prophecies seemed to be very effective without the Order guarding it. And telling Harry what was up would have put him on guard for just the sort of trick that was used.
As questioned in the article, was there even a reason to keep the prophecy away from Voldemort? The author concludes there was nothing in the prophecy that would have given LV a "weapon" to defeat Harry and so it was a ruse to distract LV and give DD more time to hunt horcruxes.

I suppose it could be argued that if LV had really studied the prophecy and could glean any insight from it, he might conclude that, since he had marked Harry as his equal, someone else needed to kill Harry--but that might have been a bit of leap for him to make. By DH LV makes the statement: "I understand those things that I did not understand before. I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be." Which is in keeping with DD's plan for Harry.

So DD sets up the Order to "protect" an essentially useless prophecy making LV think it really is valuable. When he says it's his fault that Sirius died--he is absolutely correct, but not for the reason he gives Harry.

It's interesting that we are never told what in the prophecy could actually be a weapon against Harry. When we get to the part were that should be revealed, DD sidetracks Harry (as well as us as readers) by revealing that Harry must kill Voldemort or Voldemort will kill him. Rather a bait and switch.


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  #1303  
Old August 7th, 2012, 8:36 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

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Originally Posted by HRW View Post
Well this is not a 'little' question but here goes. Why did Dumbledore try so very hard to protect the prophecy from voldemort and even putting the lives of many of the order members at risk? Was it just a ruse to keep the death eaters occupied allowing him to build up his resources or is there something I am missing?
Well, he didn't want Voldemort to know the prophecy. Whether that would have made any difference, I don't know but perhaps Dumbledore thought it would.

Alternatively, it was a ruse to make Voldemort think that the prophecy had some secrets and so made him spend all his time and resources on it delaying his other plans.


  #1304  
Old August 7th, 2012, 9:15 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
As questioned in the article, was there even a reason to keep the prophecy away from Voldemort? The author concludes there was nothing in the prophecy that would have given LV a "weapon" to defeat Harry and so it was a ruse to distract LV and give DD more time to hunt horcruxes.

I suppose it could be argued that if LV had really studied the prophecy and could glean any insight from it, he might conclude that, since he had marked Harry as his equal, someone else needed to kill Harry--but that might have been a bit of leap for him to make. By DH LV makes the statement: "I understand those things that I did not understand before. I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be." Which is in keeping with DD's plan for Harry.

So DD sets up the Order to "protect" an essentially useless prophecy making LV think it really is valuable. When he says it's his fault that Sirius died--he is absolutely correct, but not for the reason he gives Harry.

It's interesting that we are never told what in the prophecy could actually be a weapon against Harry. When we get to the part were that should be revealed, DD sidetracks Harry (as well as us as readers) by revealing that Harry must kill Voldemort or Voldemort will kill him. Rather a bait and switch.
I liked that Editorial; I thought it made very good points which you have summarised. The only thing I don't think it questions is why Voldemort wanted to hear the rest of the prophecy - what he thought he had missed. When he tried to kill baby Harry and got vapourised for his trouble he must have spent years wondering why that had happened. Perhaps he thought the reason lay in the rest of the prophecy that he had missed. I doubt he would have tumbled to the idea of Lily's love sacrifice for ages since he didn't believe in the power of love. By the time he returned in GoF he had cottoned on to that but he must still have wondered if there was something else in the prophecy that he needed to know.

By getting the Order to 'defend' it, Dumbledore was luring Voldemort into believing that there was something important in it and putting his energies into trying to hear it instead of taking over the Ministry, building up his power base and whatever else he had planned. And as an added bonus for Dumbledore's plans, the effort to get hold of it ended in many of Voldemort's supporters being put in Azkaban and Voldemort's return being confirmed. Win for Dumbledore IMO.


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  #1305  
Old August 7th, 2012, 10:11 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

Maybe a big part of the point was to lure Voldemort out so that his return was acknowledged by the Ministry, thus alerting the populace and rallying support around Harry.


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  #1306  
Old August 7th, 2012, 11:45 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

Since this is getting a bit bigger than a "Little Question," I've responded on the Dumbledore Character Analysis thread, here.


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  #1307  
Old August 8th, 2012, 5:35 am
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

I just read the article that was referenced in Mugglenet.

I don't think Order of the Phoenix was a waste of time as a book, rather, it helped Harry to really learn to defend himself and he was able to teach his classmates too. They would have suffered greater casulties in HBP and in DH.
What I am not sure of, did Dumbledore really expect Harry to deafeat Voldemort completely on his own? instead, Harry used as many people as he could to bring down Voldemort.


  #1308  
Old August 8th, 2012, 1:57 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

Is there any information on Harry's Grandparents? Did Voldemort wipe them all out? Wizards are meant to be long lived so I'm surprised James's parents didn't survive. And surely, Lily and Petunia's folks would be of no interest to Voldemort. Any ideas or links to where I can find an answer?


  #1309  
Old August 8th, 2012, 2:42 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

The explanation from JK was that James' parents were already old by wizard standards when they had James, and they passed away likely during his time at Hogwarts from natural causes.

Why Harry never bothers doing any research into his own family at all? I don't know.


  #1310  
Old August 8th, 2012, 3:17 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post

Why Harry never bothers doing any research into his own family at all? I don't know.
Harry is remarkably incurious about many things, especially for someone so innately curious.


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  #1311  
Old August 8th, 2012, 3:34 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

I agree that Order of the Phoenix was very not a waste of time as a book. Yes, to a certain extent, and in strictly plot related realms, the prophecy ends up being a bit of a MacGuffin. But the book is less about the prophecy and more about Harry's struggles, and an exploration of various themes (loneliness and isolation; good and evil not existing as stark black and white components in most individuals etc). The real importance of OOtP is really demonstrated in HBP when we see how far Harry has matured in his dealings with authority figures and his friends.

As far as the prophecy goes, its real importance and status as the quintessential ironic MacGuffin is also not revealed until HBP, when Dumbledore explains that the prophecy is really only significant due to the fact that Voldemort made it so by deciding to act upon it.


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  #1312  
Old August 8th, 2012, 3:37 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

Are all prophecies in HP self-fulfilling ones (they only happen if you make them happen) or do some of them happen regardless? If it's the former, then you'd think by then everyone would be willing to think about their actions before doing anything anymore.


  #1313  
Old August 8th, 2012, 3:59 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

I'm not sure if all prophecies are self-fulfilling. The prophecy in PoA about the dark lords servant returning to his master is heard only by Harry, and he does nothing to act upon that. You could argue that the prophecy only comes true due to Harry's intervention in stopping Sirius and Remus from killing Peter Pettigrew, but you can't argue that we was acting with the prophecy in mind at that time.

Mind you, if prophecies are self-fulfilling, is that not pretty much how the divination industry (or racket as some would call it) seeks to operate in the muggle world? Also, is felix felicis self-fulling, or does this only apply to Ron's 'placebo' dose he takes before the Quidditch match?


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Old August 8th, 2012, 4:26 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
Why Harry never bothers doing any research into his own family at all? I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurrowGhoul View Post
Harry is remarkably incurious about many things, especially for someone so innately curious.

Who could Harry ask but Petunia "Don't ask questions"? Would he really expect Sirius or Remus to know details about his family?

In talking about research, Hermione did that for the group, Harry was more about the action in problem solving. IMHO


  #1315  
Old August 8th, 2012, 4:30 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

Well I think its reasonable to expect that Sirius might have know about Harry's family. He did after all go and live with James when he ran away from home (I think they were still at school at the time?)


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Old August 8th, 2012, 4:44 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
The explanation from JK was that James' parents were already old by wizard standards when they had James, and they passed away likely during his time at Hogwarts from natural causes.
Many thanks for troubling to answer. I'm still curious though! I suppose that Witch fertility must be different to that of Muggles. If they live as long as JKR has suggested and James' parents died of natural age-related causes around the time he was still a teen then witches must be able to give birth until a ripe old age indeed!

Sirius says he left home when he was 16 and went to live with the Potters (p.103 OotP) so they were obviously still going then so you must be right to say at the end of his time at Hogwarts or soon after.

Maybe it was this that calmed James down and made him more attractive to Lily. She strikes me as someone who would feel sympathetic to someone in that situation. As for her parents... who knows. Petunia isn't saying!



Last edited by Ripper; August 8th, 2012 at 4:46 pm. Reason: grammar
  #1317  
Old August 8th, 2012, 4:45 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

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Originally Posted by BublGumPnkHar View Post
Who could Harry ask but Petunia "Don't ask questions"? Would he really expect Sirius or Remus to know details about his family?

In talking about research, Hermione did that for the group, Harry was more about the action in problem solving. IMHO
There are entire BOOKS about Harry in the wizarding world (Hermione mentions them) that he has never opened. And don't get me started on "Hogwarts, A History!"


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Old August 8th, 2012, 4:55 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

For someone so badly wanting to know about his parents, he shows incredibly little desire to want to ask anyone about them beyond the usual "Oh, they were lovely people!" stuff. He waited until 5th Year to bother seeing any memories of them!


  #1319  
Old August 8th, 2012, 5:09 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
For someone so badly wanting to know about his parents, he shows incredibly little desire to want to ask anyone about them beyond the usual "Oh, they were lovely people!" stuff. He waited until 5th Year to bother seeing any memories of them!
Perhaps his curiosity was originally quashed by Dumbledore around the time of The Mirror of Erised. He certainly has the desire to see them then but gets a stern lecture on the dangers of forgetting to live in the present. It may have taken those years for a stronger interest to resurface.

As you say he doesn't seem interested earlier. The Mirror actually shows him whole generations of green-eyed, knobbly kneed people (though quite why the old man whose knees were visible actually had them exposed is never made clear - the mind boggles), (P153 PS). Perhaps some of those green eyed people where Lily's parents?



Last edited by Ripper; August 8th, 2012 at 5:15 pm.
  #1320  
Old August 8th, 2012, 5:12 pm
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Re: Little Questions Answered v.20

You'd think actually meeting his parents' friends in 3rd year and learning he had a Godfather would make him more curious then and there. What was stopping him from writing to Remus and asking more about his parents, even if he couldn't reach Sirius? Wanting to know about your family isn't the same as getting sucked into a magic mirror's spell.


 
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