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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



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  #1301  
Old August 17th, 2008, 2:01 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Some characters may have characteristics that identify with personality types but they usually won't be an exact match.
This is the same with real people as well. I don't think Snape or any character fits one particular personality type exactly word for word. But by the nature of their characters, they may exhibit the traits of a certain personality type. I think it's interesting to examine these personality types and see which parts fit which characters. In regards to Snape specifically, I can certainly see a lot of similarities between Snape and the INTJ, as well as the INTP. I haven't read the profile of all the types yet, but I'm willing to bet that Snape would share more in common with an Ixxx than an Exxx (as would I in fact ) This from the ISTP seems to roughly apply to Snape:
Quote:
ISTPs have a compelling drive to understand the way things work. They're good at logical analysis, and like to use it on practical concerns. They typically have strong powers of reasoning, although they're not interested in theories or concepts unless they can see a practical application. They like to take things apart and see the way they work.
This is similar to Snape's invention of spells. I see it as an application of magical theory, which I think demonstrates an interest in the way magic works. The very nature of invention is to push the limits of what's already been done and figure out something new, which incorporates both application of theoretical concepts and in a way, taking an aspect of magic and trying to determine new ways for it to work.

BTW thanks for the site, Yewberryblu.


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  #1302  
Old August 17th, 2008, 2:18 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan View Post
This is the same with real people as well. I don't think Snape or any character fits one particular personality type exactly word for word.
Exactly. People fall somewhere on the spectrum for each measurement and few are at the extreme ends of any of the scales. Here is another nice description for INTJ complete with examples of real life INTJs.

This part of that description seems true:
Quote:
Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in interpersonal situations.
Here is a sample test so that you can "sort" yourself: Myers-Briggs Test


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  #1303  
Old August 17th, 2008, 4:07 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I am not certain what this has to do with skill or fighting expertise as a wizard. Could you clarify?
Well skill is also not breaking under pressure. The greater the pressure, the worse it could be inside the brain, where it could affect reflexes, thinking capacity and subsequent actions. I thought Snape held himself very well. This was also very, very important to fighting the war, because if Snape let himself go to pieces, then hemight ahve made mistakes that could have cost the Light the war. But Snape in year 6 and 7 holds himself tightly, killing (DD) and watching others killed (Charity) and protecting students, all the time keeping his sanity and his mind intact. I think these 2 years Snape was probably exerting his Occlumency shields to the maximum, pushing a lot of trauma inside his mind and sealing it. This too, was an important skill in fighting the war I thought and very crucial to Harry and Light IMO.

Quote:
Again, I am not certain why this would apply to Snape's skill as a wizard. This speaks to his ability to be convincing, imo. Lucius did the same, managing to talk his way out of torture in GoF and convince Voldemort to accept him back. Other DEs were not so lucky.
Lucius was not thought the traitor as Snape was; Snape was the "one who had left them forever" and Voldmeort had promised to deal with that. Snape had also not answered the summons unlike Lucius and he went late. He would have had to answer Voldemort's questions and stand his Legilimency in order to return alive. From being thought a traitor, Snape had to convince Voldemort that he was indeed a DE. That IMO was because of Snape's own expertise at Legilimency and Occlumency. And that was also important to the war.

What I am trying to say is it is not only brains or knowledge of spells; it's their application, combined with one's attitude and presence of mind where one is able to improvise and take decisions on the spot and do them right. All this forms part of fighting, because all this is needed to survive.

Like for Dumbledore, he would also need to keep his Order memebrs with him, if he wanted to fight Voldemort. Which would mean that he would alsp have to have good people skills and inspire the othrs to come together under him and fight. That is also important, for Dumbledore being only brilliant will not do the trick and he being a fantastic duelist cannot also win the war. He needs others to help him as well and for that his other skills also matter.

This was why Dumbeldore stood out, unlike so many other brillinat witches and wizards who did not. And in the same way, I think Snape too, stood out because of his excellent application of his brilliance which made him IMO the most powerful wizard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yewberryblu View Post
But I suppose it depends on what we really mean by "greatness" ; for me, it means morally great as well as practically brilliant. Dumblefore fits the bill. Voldy doesn't. And that's really the central question for me about Snape - can I call him morally great?
I agree Voldemort does not fit the bill. Why do you think Dumbeldore was morally great and why are you doubtful about Snape (if you are that is)?


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  #1304  
Old August 17th, 2008, 11:41 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Well skill is also not breaking under pressure. The greater the pressure, the worse it could be inside the brain, where it could affect reflexes, thinking capacity and subsequent actions. I thought Snape held himself very well. This was also very, very important to fighting the war, because if Snape let himself go to pieces, then hemight ahve made mistakes that could have cost the Light the war. But Snape in year 6 and 7 holds himself tightly, killing (DD) and watching others killed (Charity) and protecting students, all the time keeping his sanity and his mind intact. I think these 2 years Snape was probably exerting his Occlumency shields to the maximum, pushing a lot of trauma inside his mind and sealing it. This too, was an important skill in fighting the war I thought and very crucial to Harry and Light IMO.
I respect your view. However, we saw Snape fall apart a number of times (CoS, OOPT, GoF, HBP). I would agree he was able to keep it together under the eye of Voldemort and the DEs, but what reason did he have to fall apart? He did not participate in any of the traumatic events like the battles at the DOM or MOM or at Hogwarts where other DEs had failures or were defeated in one way or another. He just had to remain true to his pretense, like Kingsley. Both were brave and did an admirable job at that, but I don't believe that Snape was shown to stand out in this regard. This I say in light of the many others who similarly placed their lives at risk and like Snape and Kingsley, we simply know very little about what they might have actually done. JKR did not show us. You know like Peter was a hero JKR says - when, how, why? We don't know. Sirius fought bravely in the first war; when how why? We don't know. Snape spied bravely - we saw the one occassion w/ Charity, but that's it; is that all he ever had to do? Who knows? Did he kill Charity (which would have made it even more difficult?) Who knows? So I feel the lack of information prevents us from gauging whether or not any one wizard's work showed them to have superior skills. I do feel it shows they were all brave though.

Quote:
Lucius was not thought the traitor as Snape was; Snape was the "one who had left them forever" and Voldmeort had promised to deal with that. Snape had also not answered the summons unlike Lucius and he went late. He would have had to answer Voldemort's questions and stand his Legilimency in order to return alive. From being thought a traitor, Snape had to convince Voldemort that he was indeed a DE. That IMO was because of Snape's own expertise at Legilimency and Occlumency. And that was also important to the war.
I respect your view; but you are making a number of assumptions. Another person shared a view with me that Lucius likely stood up for Severus and plead with Voldemort on his behalf. In my view, Voldemort wanted to keep as many of his inner circle of followers as possible and gave them all a 2nd chance. The story Snape gave to Bella was not that he remained faithful; but that he thought maybe Harry Potter was the next great Dark Lord. Is that what he told Voldemort that day? We don't know. The lack of information I feel prevents us from making a judgment on this. Again, we already know Snape was a good Occulmens, but it is merely a magical skill, and many had incredible magical skills, just all different. So I would not be able to say Snape was superior merely because he excelled at this one in particular. BTW, we have no canon that he was a great legilimens; in my judgment, breaking into the minds of youngsters (Draco and Harry) was not proof that he was, especially since Draco figured out immediately what he was doing and blocked him.

Quote:
What I am trying to say is it is not only brains or knowledge of spells; it's their application, combined with one's attitude and presence of mind where one is able to improvise and take decisions on the spot and do them right. All this forms part of fighting, because all this is needed to survive.
Every member of the Order had to do this and many did it very well. Most placed themselves in far more dangerous positions than Snape, and on a more frequent basis. So I would not be able to use this to say that Snape was superior, but it does show that he did it as well as the others.

Quote:
Like for Dumbledore, he would also need to keep his Order memebrs with him, if he wanted to fight Voldemort. Which would mean that he would alsp have to have good people skills and inspire the othrs to come together under him and fight. That is also important, for Dumbledore being only brilliant will not do the trick and he being a fantastic duelist cannot also win the war. He needs others to help him as well and for that his other skills also matter.

This was why Dumbeldore stood out, unlike so many other brillinat witches and wizards who did not. And in the same way, I think Snape too, stood out because of his excellent application of his brilliance which made him IMO the most powerful wizard.
I don't understand the analogy. Snape had no people working under him to keep in order; he was not a leader of men in the scope of the story. I think that Snape showed a lot of bravery if he had to go to meetings like the one we were shown in Dark Lord Ascending. I also believe it showed that his occlucmeny skills were very good. But as to applying his skill; well everyone had to do that, so I suppose I am not understanding what you mean.

Dumbledore not only applied his skills, he was the greatest wizard of the time - so he had more skill to apply. Voldemort was right up there and other wizards were remarked on as being great in the series too, but Snape was not one of them.

That does not mean he wasn't a talented wizard, to me it just means that he was on par with all of the other wizards. He was young, talented and brave. But many were. One distinction was that Snape was betraying Voldemort and his occlumency skill had to shine - luckily it was strong enough to do so. But as I said, Dumbledore still kept a lot of information from Snape, because despite his skill, Dumbledore felt Voldemort might still be able to get information out of him. If Dumbledore felt Snape was on the same level as he was (a budding Merlin), then he would have entrusted him with much more information and asked for his assistance. But Dumbledore didn't believe anyone was on par with him - although he remarked that Voldemort was close and getting closer. In my view, Snape was on par with the other talented wizards in the series (Kingsley, Hestia, McGonagall, Sirius, Arthur, Lupin, etc.)

Inventing spells and other magic is great; but none of those who did so where considered on par with Dumbledore and his ilk. George and Fred invented far more spells than Snape; the Marauders made the incredible M. Map which likely involved more complicated magic than Snape's spells; these things, and Snape's inventions happened in canon, but no one called any of these people on par with Dumbledore merely because they used their knowledge to create spells. It is like the wizard who created Wolfsbane - that was awesome in how it applied to help the wizard world out - but he is not revered on the level of Dumbledore either. There are zillions of spells, made by zillions of people (plus magical items, etc.), so this is something that some wizards just do. Sure it is great, but because so many do it, it does not make them outstanding in the way it makes Dumbledore, Voldemort, Grindlewald or the Perevell Brothers. Those people had something else - either magic far and above what is believed to be possible or showing themselves as great magicians in a myriad of ways, over an extremely long span of years (Dumbledore and Grindlewald were over 100 and Voldemort over 60, etc.) Snape was a little kid when he made spells and like the Marauders, he didn't make any more when he got older that we know of. George and Fred were somewhat older and created many more spells and magical items, but it really amounted to the same thing.

The bottom line for me is that there was a clear separation between the truly powerful and great wizards and the rest. Dumbledore and his group were older, more experienced and had proven themselves great in many repsects. They had defeated other great wizards and/or created magic that was well beyond what was thought possible (i.e., flying, the hallows), and they became extraordinary people, known by the wizard world for their greatness. Snape didn't reach this level, or even approach it, imo, canon does not support this idea in my view.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 17th, 2008 at 12:57 pm.
  #1305  
Old August 17th, 2008, 3:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I don't understand the analogy. Snape had no people working under him to keep in order; he was not a leader of men in the scope of the story. I think that Snape showed a lot of bravery if he had to go to meetings like the one we were shown in Dark Lord Ascending. I also believe it showed that his occlucmeny skills were very good. But as to applying his skill; well everyone had to do that, so I suppose I am not understanding what you mean.

Dumbledore not only applied his skills, he was the greatest wizard of the time - so he had more skill to apply. Voldemort was right up there and other wizards were remarked on as being great in the series too, but Snape was not one of them.

That does not mean he wasn't a talented wizard, to me it just means that he was on par with all of the other wizards. He was young, talented and brave. But many were. One distinction was that Snape was betraying Voldemort and his occlumency skill had to shine - luckily it was strong enough to do so. But as I said, Dumbledore still kept a lot of information from Snape, because despite his skill, Dumbledore felt Voldemort might still be able to get information out of him. If Dumbledore felt Snape was on the same level as he was (a budding Merlin), then he would have entrusted him with much more information and asked for his assistance. But Dumbledore didn't believe anyone was on par with him - although he remarked that Voldemort was close and getting closer. In my view, Snape was on par with the other talented wizards in the series (Kingsley, Hestia, McGonagall, Sirius, Arthur, Lupin, etc.)

Inventing spells and other magic is great; but none of those who did so where considered on par with Dumbledore and his ilk. George and Fred invented far more spells than Snape; the Marauders made the incredible M. Map which likely involved more complicated magic than Snape's spells; these things, and Snape's inventions happened in canon, but no one called any of these people on par with Dumbledore merely because they used their knowledge to create spells. It is like the wizard who created Wolfsbane - that was awesome in how it applied to help the wizard world out - but he is not revered on the level of Dumbledore either. There are zillions of spells, made by zillions of people (plus magical items, etc.), so this is something that some wizards just do. Sure it is great, but because so many do it, it does not make them outstanding in the way it makes Dumbledore, Voldemort, Grindlewald or the Perevell Brothers. Those people had something else - either magic far and above what is believed to be possible or showing themselves as great magicians in a myriad of ways, over an extremely long span of years (Dumbledore and Grindlewald were over 100 and Voldemort over 60, etc.) Snape was a little kid when he made spells and like the Marauders, he didn't make any more when he got older that we know of. George and Fred were somewhat older and created many more spells and magical items, but it really amounted to the same thing.

The bottom line for me is that there was a clear separation between the truly powerful and great wizards and the rest. Dumbledore and his group were older, more experienced and had proven themselves great in many repsects. They had defeated other great wizards and/or created magic that was well beyond what was thought possible (i.e., flying, the hallows), and they became extraordinary people, known by the wizard world for their greatness. Snape didn't reach this level, or even approach it, imo, canon does not support this idea in my view.
Once again I agree with you. Snape was a talented wizard, not even I can deny that. But I don't see how he can be compared to Dumbledore, Voldemort, or any of the other wizards who were at a higher level than any had ever been before. While Snape was inventing spells as a kid, Dumbledore was doing things with magic that no one had ever done before (as told by Professor Marchbanks). Voldemort, at the age of 16, was already planning to split his soul into seven pieces while no one else had never split it into more than one piece.

I just don't see where Snape's incredible skills as the most talented wizard of his generation are exhibited. The Marauders made the Marauders' Map, which seems like it would use some pretty complex magic. They figured out how to become Animagi when they were fifteen, which is incredibly impressive when you're doing it by yourself. All IMO.


  #1306  
Old August 17th, 2008, 5:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathlyH
I just don't see where Snape's incredible skills as the most talented wizard of his generation are exhibited. The Marauders made the Marauders' Map, which seems like it would use some pretty complex magic. They figured out how to become Animagi when they were fifteen, which is incredibly impressive when you're doing it by yourself. All IMO.
I completely agree. James and Sirius are described as just as brilliant and brave. In fact, James "and Sirius were the best in the school at whatever they did," whereas "Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts." Snape was much more concentrated with his brilliance: Defense Against the Dark Arts and Potions are the only two subjects we read of his brilliance. On the other end, James and Sirius were equally brilliant in "whatever they did." I do not think that Snape's intelligence at school can be used to support the claim that he is the most powerful wizard we see in the series, because James and Sirius were equally (if not more so) intelligent and innovative.

Like wickedwickedboy, I would classify Snape's power as similar to those in the series such as Sirius, Remus, McGonagall, Kingsley, Mad-Eye (he, in my opinion, outstrips Snape), etc. The sole reason I can understand why some may categorize Snape in the group of Dumbledore, Grindelwald, Voldemort, etc. is that he acted as spy for Dumbledore. However, simply because Snape had the opportunity to perform this role does not mean any of the others (Sirius, Remus, Kingsley, etc.) could not have done the same thing if given the chance.


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  #1307  
Old August 17th, 2008, 6:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I should have brought this up before, as it came up yesterday....


On the Sirius thread, we were talking about his culpability in the deaths of the Potters and his admission that he "as good as killed" them.
I noticed how ironic it was that he says this shortly after Snape comes in. Three people partly responsible for the Potters deaths are in the same place at once.

I'm wondering if the behaviors of Sirius and Severus have something to do with this. Not just Snape's certainty that Sirius was the SK or Sirius' knowledge that Wormtail was the traitor, but their own guilt. Could that have also attributed to their reactions to whoever they felt was the guilty party?

I think this applies to Snape especially because while we have one line from Sirius saying that he knows he made a mistake, we see much more guilt from Severus-- guilt that could color a lot of his actions in a lot of different scenes.


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  #1308  
Old August 17th, 2008, 6:27 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post

Why do you think Dumbeldore was morally great and why are you doubtful about Snape (if you are that is)?
The answer to the first is that Dumbledore has evolved into character who turns his back on the path that leads to genocide (his and Grindelwald's decision whilst young that their luck in being born wizards made them superior to Muggles) and that he then follows the path so far in the other direction, that he is integral to Voldy's downfall. I think that is moral greatness.

Snape.....well, a similar chronology applies, doesn't it? Like Dumbledore, his youth was spent in following the wrong path ; he clearly went much further down it than Dumbledore but like him, his turning point was the death of a loved one. He then switched loyalties...

The difference is that Dumbledore has an evolved moral sense ; his speech with/advice to Harry is peppered with it (eg doing what is right, not easy - a handy summary of his moral sense). He has a clear moral framework ; even his "use" of Harry revealed in Snape's memories is designed to get the vital job of killing Voldy done.

Snape....well, as I said above, I think Snape's impulse to switch sides is remorse and horror about Lily's death, not a result of a moral repulsion about Voldy stands for. I suppose his feelings might have evolved in a moral repulsion about the Death Eater code generally, but I still don't really believe that. His moral actions arise from his personal grief - Dumbledore's evolved into something greater.


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  #1309  
Old August 17th, 2008, 6:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I still don't quite understand why it's apparently worse for Snape to have a personal reason to change his ways than the alternative-- especially since that alternative isn't even a realistic expectation to put on a human being.

One of the big lessons in HP seems to be the importance or love and friendship. Voldemort lacked those, and he became a monster. So doesn't it stand to reason that everyone who fought Voldemort is as good as they are because they had someone to lean on and love in times of trouble?
Without those outside influences, anyone would be susceptible to the DEs and Voldemort-- as we see from young Snape, who developed some questionable morals because he lacked parental guidance and care.

That Snape broke away from Voldemort and became a better person out of love for someone other than himself is IMO far more noble and understandable than if he just decided one day "Hey, this is kind of dumb. I'm going to go to Dumbledore. See ya, Voldie!"


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  #1310  
Old August 17th, 2008, 6:46 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

It's not worse that Snape had a personal reason ; I see that as the same as Dumbledore (Ariana's death is his prompt to review his actions isn't it?) It's where they both went from that point in terms of their bigger moral picture that I think is different.

And I suppose a question is - does it matter why they did what they did, if the outcome is what both Dumbledore and Snape worked so hard to achieve (Voldy's death) ? Well, to me, it does make a difference - the personality and moral imperatives of characters matter. It's what makes them real - and what makes them interesting!

By the way, your comment about Snape having left the Death Eaters behind out of love for another person.....what kind of love does he have for her? It's a question I keep coming back to.......


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  #1311  
Old August 17th, 2008, 6:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Snape's life properly equipped him for such a job. He came from a broken home, was bullied mercilessly for years, and grew up to see horrible things that no one ought to see. It's a natural reaction for some to repress one's own feelings about those things. In a cruel world, any sign of emotion spells danger for you. IMO, that emotional repression would have been useful in learning Occlumency. Molly or Kingsley both lacked the Dark Mark and the disposition to carry out the job.
I'm glad you said that, Ig. I firmly believe the conditions of someone's life play a role in the choices they can make, and those conditions aren't always given consideration by people. To me, it's the perspective and motivation that that person takes while dealing with life that matters. As long as one takes their position and uses it as an mechanism to do the right thing, I will applaud them.

You're right that Molly and Kingsley both lacked the disposition to do Snape's job. Molly's life made her into a fierce defender, and Kingsley's made him into someone cool under pressure. Snape couldn't take Kingsley's role, and Molly couldn't take Snape's, to use just the examples given. We can't discount someone's offering to the cause because of their disposition, as it was that disposition that made the necessary offering possible. All conditions are needed. A team needs people from all angles.

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yewberryblu View Post
By the way, your comment about Snape having left the Death Eaters behind out of love for another person.....what kind of love does he have for her? It's a question I keep coming back to.......
I think Snape recognized Lily's kindness to him as a young boy who needed a friend was the condition in his life that gave him the ability to do the right thing, and he loved her accordingly. He knew the largeness of her actions, and tried to honor that.


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Last edited by IchLiebeGeorge; August 17th, 2008 at 7:03 pm.
  #1312  
Old August 17th, 2008, 6:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Yewberryblu View Post
By the way, your comment about Snape having left the Death Eaters behind out of love for another person.....what kind of love does he have for her? It's a question I keep coming back to.......
That's a good question. I remember there was some pretty heated debate on that shortly after DH came out.

IMHO, Snape's love for Lily changed and evolved as much as he did-- so I don't think there really is one definite answer to the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge
Snape couldn't take Kingsley's role, and Molly couldn't take Snape's
You had me supplying in my head: "And Snape couldn't take Molly's" Can you imagine him trying to take charge of all the Weasley kids?

Good points in your post too. Snape may not have been the most pleasant of people, but that same fact still made him useful to the Order.


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Last edited by ignisia; August 17th, 2008 at 6:53 pm.
  #1313  
Old August 17th, 2008, 6:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge View Post
You're right that Molly and Kingsley both lacked the disposition to do Snape's job. Molly's life made her into a fierce defender, and Kingsley's made him into someone cool under pressure. Snape couldn't take Kingsley's role, and Molly couldn't take Snape's, to use just the examples given. We can't discount someone's offering to the cause because of their disposition, as it was that disposition that made the necessary offering possible. All conditions are needed. A team needs people from all angles.
That's a good point - Dumbledore never threw someone away just due to their disposition. Minerva was not always sweetness and light, nor was Mad Eye Moody, who was paranoid to the point of negativity, always talking about death. He even gave Kreacher-the-Traitor and Mundungus a place in the Order - and Harry tried to strangle Dung for stealing Sirius's stuff!

The point is redemption and change, not putting people in categories due to personality. That is a mistake Harry makes and then grows out of it.


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  #1314  
Old August 17th, 2008, 7:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
You had me supplying in my head: "And Snape couldn't take Molly's" Can you imagine him trying to take charge of all the Weasley kids?
A thought I always come back to: If only Snape had had a position in a family like the Weasley's... quite a different life he would have had. Although, this story we love couldn't have been possible if that had been the case. What a contrast in lives, Severus Snape's and the Weasley's. This is why I'm so proud Molly accepted Snape's invitation to work together.


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  #1315  
Old August 17th, 2008, 7:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I should have brought this up before, as it came up yesterday....On the Sirius thread, we were talking about his culpability in the deaths of the Potters and his admission that he "as good as killed" them. I noticed how ironic it was that he says this shortly after Snape comes in. Three people partly responsible for the Potters deaths are in the same place at once.
Do you mean 3 people who feel they are responsible? I would agree with that. But in my view, Sirius wasn't responsible at all; he was attempting to save them. His retaining guilt over a honest mistake was the only 'mistake' he was making, imo.

Why do you feel it ironic? Do you mean because Snape was thinking the same thing and Peter also?

Quote:
I'm wondering if the behaviors of Sirius and Severus have something to do with this. Not just Snape's certainty that Sirius was the SK or Sirius' knowledge that Wormtail was the traitor, but their own guilt. Could that have also attributed to their reactions to whoever they felt was the guilty party?
In my judgment, yes (although see below). With Sirius very much so because deep down I feel he knew that his guilt was misplaced. He would be livid with Peter, as Lupin was, because they knew he was the real guilty party and I feel that guided their actions.

Quote:
I think this applies to Snape especially because while we have one line from Sirius saying that he knows he made a mistake, we see much more guilt from Severus-- guilt that could color a lot of his actions in a lot of different scenes.
This is the odd part of this scene to me. Snape knew that his role in the whole fiasco was similar to what he believed Sirius' to be - except he thought Sirius had done it on purpose. I agree Snape had a lot of personal guilt about it, but I don't think that he felt he could alleviate that by blaming others and getting revenge. Rather, I think he simply felt that Sirius (and Lupin) were not sorry for what had happened with the Potters and were attempting to fool Harry into thinking that they had. He didn't listen to what they were saying I think, because he was very confirmed in his beliefs. He wanted revenge for Lily, but also against Sirius for the werewolf incident (which was the topic of conversation). But I don't think that was spurred on by guilt. I don't think he could relieve his guilt no matter what he did and I believe he fully understood that.

The other odd aspect was that Snape truly seemed to blame Sirius completely in the werewolf incident - despite his having suspected with near certainty that Remus was a werewolf when he made the autonomous decision to enter the tunnel and had to be rescued.

This has me confused. On the one hand, when Snape accused Sirius of trying to murder him at 16, Dumbledore cryptically responded that his memory was as good as it had ever been. That makes it seem like he was trying to remind Snape of his own culpability in the incident. That goes along with what we learn in DH - and even if Dumbledore didn't know Snape knew about Lupin, he would consider Snape culpable for breaking the rules, stopping the tree and moving inside the tunnel.

But on the other hand there is a bit of a loophole to me: we can't be 100% certain that Dumbledore figured out Snape had guessed about Lupin - but who are we 100% knew Snape had guessed? Lily. And when Lily found out for certain (likely when she was dating James) wouldn't they have told her that no one else knew for sure except them and Snape - indicating the werewolf incident as when Snape learned about it? At that point, wouldn't she mention that Snape had suspected Remus was a werewolf? I feel she would have, but in canon, they didn't seem to know. I mean either way you look at it Lily would say something; because Snape either looks foolish for taking Sirius' advice, or partially culpable but intelligent if he knew what he was likely walking into. So it wasn't a matter of not revealing the information to help Snape out - because not revealing it made him look worse and Lily didn't strike me as the vindictive type.

That makes me think that JKR only decided to add Snape's foreknowledge in when she wrote DH. At the time of POA, I don't think she had planned for Snape to suspect that Remus was a werewolf. The information in DH also made Snape going into the tunnel more plausible, because it made little sense that Snape would do anything Sirius suggested considering they were sworn enemies. Imagine Draco taking Harry's suggestion that he go into a place forbidden by the school - no way. So while adding the information helped, it also opened up the bit of a loophole I have written about above. I think JKR would resolve that by merely saying Lily never said anything about it because it didn't come up in conversation - or that she and James kept it between themselves. But that is a little far-fetched to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yewberryblu View Post
By the way, your comment about Snape having left the Death Eaters behind out of love for another person.....what kind of love does he have for her? It's a question I keep coming back to.......
I feel this is a character based question because I feel his love for Lily was obsessive and possessive. But it was not just his love for her that was that way - in my judgment, he behaved in the same manner with his desire to join Voldemort (not paying Lily any heed); over his fascination with the dark arts - and when he was older with potions (speeches in class and to Lockheart: 'I am the potions master here' when Lockheart indicated he'd make a potion) and DADA relative to the dark arts (his speech in class and desire for the job); to serving Voldemort (wanting to be #1 man); to serving Dumbledore (wanting to be totally in the know); with his Slytherin head of house responsibility and also on a personal level with his holding of grudges and behaving in a vindictive manner.

Snape appeared to have exchanged obsessions for others as time went by, but he never really lost that attribute, imo. I feel that in the specific case of his love for Lily, Snape's character was shown to have this aspect in how long it lasted, how deeply it affected him and his actions, and imo, the selfishness with which it was displayed in canon (his treatment of Harry; stealing of the picture/letter - his emotion shown, his disregard of Harry and Sirius by taking them and the idea of separating her from her loved ones in the ripping of the photo; belittling her husband, initially attempting to save her at the expense of her loved ones, etc., yet simultaneously expressing his love for her).

So in my view, obsession/possession were fundamental character traits of Snape's that simply characterized many aspects of his life, including his feelings of love for Lily.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 17th, 2008 at 7:51 pm.
  #1316  
Old August 17th, 2008, 7:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
However, simply because Snape had the opportunity to perform this role does not mean any of the others (Sirius, Remus, Kingsley, etc.) could not have done the same thing if given the chance.
If any of them had anything remotely comparable to Snape's ability in Occlumency, then Albus goofed in OotP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yewberryblu View Post
By the way, your comment about Snape having left the Death Eaters behind out of love for another person.....what kind of love does he have for her? It's a question I keep coming back to.......
My own answer to that is based on what that love inspired. Like much about the character, it probably grew with him, since it id not prevent the mistakes he made at school. Yet, eventually, in service to Albus, something he undertook initially in an attempt to win protection for Lily, he risked everything (and eventually lost his reputation and his life).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yewberryblu View Post
Snape....well, as I said above, I think Snape's impulse to switch sides is remorse and horror about Lily's death, not a result of a moral repulsion about Voldy stands for. I suppose his feelings might have evolved in a moral repulsion about the Death Eater code generally, but I still don't really believe that. His moral actions arise from his personal grief - Dumbledore's evolved into something greater.
I wonder, then, why Rowling bothered to include the exchange in "The Pricne's Tale", in which Albus responds to Snape's anger over the plan for Harry with a question (paraphrase) "How many people have you watched die, Severus?" and the response "Lately, only those I could not save". The implication is, Snape has, lately, saved people from death. Is Snape lying? If so, in service of what? He has the upper hand, Albus is at this point relying on him for every phase of his plan except the Horcrux hunt itself.

There is also the little scene with Phineas, but I can more easily accept the interpretation of that as harking back to his "worst memory" (though I personally, think it is meant to show more).


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  #1317  
Old August 17th, 2008, 8:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
If any of them had anything remotely comparable to Snape's ability in Occlumency, then Albus goofed in OotP.
I understood that to mean if they had been loyal death eaters and had Voldemort's trust and Snape's skill set. Just as Snape could have spied at the ministry if he had been a trained Auror and had Kingsleys skill set. Same with anyone replacing Remus as a spy - if they were a werewolf with his skill set. No one could step into another's shoes in these situations. But the fact that they excelled in certain areas and their backgrounds provided them with the perfect cover does not make any of them a superior wizard in terms of the other, in my judgment.

Quote:
Albus is at this point relying on him for every phase of his plan except the Horcrux hunt itself.
And except the Ministry infiltration, the protection of the Muggles, the garnering of community support (including magical creatures and half breeds - in some cases simply drawing them away from Voldemort), the protection of muggleborns and the matter of the hallows (excepting the Elder Wand) - all too taken into consideration by Dumbledore in his plans - none of which required reliance on Snape.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 17th, 2008 at 8:46 pm.
  #1318  
Old August 17th, 2008, 10:24 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I understood that to mean if they had been loyal death eaters and had Voldemort's trust and Snape's skill set. Just as Snape could have spied at the ministry if he had been a trained Auror and had Kingsleys skill set.
Actually, I think Auror was probably a career Snape could have aspired to, if he had made different choices. Charms, DADA, Transfiguration, Potions, and Herbology...he has shown aptitude for them all.


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  #1319  
Old August 17th, 2008, 10:28 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Actually, I think Auror was probably a career Snape could have aspired to, if he had made different choices. Charms, DADA, Transfiguration, Potions, and Herbology...he has shown aptitude for them all.
When in canon did he show aptitude for Herbology? I don't remember any case of it. But besides that, he probably could have been a Dark Wizard Catcher. Instead, he was one of the Dark Wizards.


  #1320  
Old August 17th, 2008, 11:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Actually, I think Auror was probably a career Snape could have aspired to, if he had made different choices.
I respect your view, but that was not my point. Perhaps Snape would have been a werewolf if James hadn't rescued him from the tunnel. But he was none of these things. I feel Dumbldore chose the 'best man for the job'. In Snape's case, that was spying on Voldemort based on his background and skill set, imo.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 17th, 2008 at 11:15 pm.
 
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