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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #121  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:34 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
As for peer pressure, I don't really agree. If Severus was that vulnerable to peer pressure, wouldn't his Slytherin friends have been angry about his friendship with Lily? And wouldn't he have caved to them?
I would say not. I am of the opinion that Sev would have done anything necessary to stay friends with Lily. If he knew what the anything necessary was, that is.

However, absent a reason to believe that it had to be Lily or his other, not "best" friends, it seems perfectly plausible to me that he preferred to have both.

A few years after the breakup, he was willing to do "Anything" just to get Albus to protect her and her family. Which involved doing rather more, to get rather less.


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  #122  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:55 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I would say not. I am of the opinion that Sev would have done anything necessary to stay friends with Lily. If he knew what the anything necessary was, that is.

However, absent a reason to believe that it had to be Lily or his other, not "best" friends, it seems perfectly plausible to me that he preferred to have both.
It was very naive, and tunnel-visioned of him to believe he could hold onto friends who hated Muggleborns and considered them inferior and a friend who was Muggleborn, especially with a war raging where blood purity was being used as an issue. I can't see how it can have seemed plausible, if he'd given it any thought beyond what he wanted -and for teenage Severus, that was to have it both ways, imo.

It wasn't up to Lily to give him an ultimatum in that regard, she tried advising him. If she'd presented him with an ultimatum, she'd probably be criticised for being pushy and demanding, imo.


Quote:
A few years after the breakup, he was willing to do "Anything" just to get Albus to protect her and her family. Which involved doing rather more, to get rather less.
It was a shame that it took Lily being put in danger to make him realise that joining a group of bigots led by a less than sane individual wasn't a great idea.


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  #123  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 1:18 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I voted for it since there was a lack of an option about "If Lily had appreciated him more, she might have given him another chance as a friend, and that might have helped him fight the peer pressure."
This is still saying that Snape wouldn't have turned out the way he did had Lily tried harder. It's still puts a responsibility on Lily that was never hers in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Snape didn't seem to want Lily's help with that problem, or more accurately, I think, he didn't want to see that it was a problem.
Given what's proven in the text, I agree. Snape's choices and actions were out of Lily's control, so I don't see what more she could have done.


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  #124  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 1:19 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
It was very naive, and tunnel-visioned of him to believe he could hold onto friends who hated Muggleborns and considered them inferior and a friend who was Muggleborn, especially with a war raging where blood purity was being used as an issue. I can't see how it can have seemed plausible, if he'd given it any thought beyond what he wanted -and for teenage Severus, that was to have it both ways, imo.
My post addressed itself to the idea that he would not have been willing/able to resist peer pressure. I think it is clear enough first, that he must have (unless we think Avery and Mulciber thought it cool that Sev had muggleborn friend?), and second, that he would have been willing to put up with more to retain that friendship with his "best" friend.

Whether or not the position was reasonable, it is what I think Sev wanted, and believed, until Lily broke up with him, that he could have. I also think the position was reasonable in the sense that Snape succeeded in having both sets of friends for five years.


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Last edited by arithmancer; February 2nd, 2010 at 1:24 am.
  #125  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 1:33 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
This is still saying that Snape wouldn't have turned out the way he did had Lily tried harder. It's still puts a responsibility on Lily that was never hers in the first place.


Given what's proven in the text, I agree. Snape's choices and actions were out of Lily's control, so I don't see what more she could have done.
Agree, totally. It wasn't Lily's resonsibility to save Severus, you can't help someone if they don't want help.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
My post addressed itself to the idea that he would not have been willing/able to resist peer pressure. I think it is clear enough first, that he must have (unless we think Avery and Mulciber thought it cool that Sev had muggleborn friend?), and second, that he would have been willing to put up with more to retain that friendship with his "best" friend.
I don't see how they would think it cool considering they thought Muggleborns beneath them and went on to join a group that had as one of its aims murder or imprisonment of Muggleborns.

Quote:
Whether or not the position was reasonable, it is what I think Sev wanted, and believed, until Lily broke up with him, that he could have. I also think the position was reasonable in the sense that Snape succeeded in having both sets of friends for five years.
I agree, Severus thought it was reasonable, but if he had considered things rationally, he might have seen it was unsustainable. Especially as they moved towards adulthood and placed themselves firmly on opposite sides of the war - Mulciber and Avery to Voldemort and murdering Muggleborns such as Lily, Lily to the Order and fighting Voldemort's followers.

From Snape's point of view, it might have been workable, however, he didn't consider Lily's perspective in this, at all, imo.


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  #126  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 1:34 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
This is still saying that Snape wouldn't have turned out the way he did had Lily tried harder. It's still puts a responsibility on Lily that was never hers in the first place.
No, it is a statement about causality. Responsibility is a separate matter.

For example, Snape caused Voldemort to attack the Potters and give Lily a choice, resulting in his vaporization and the emergence of the Boy Who Lived. But this does not make him the savior of the Wizarding World.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't see how they would think it cool considering they thought Muggleborns beneath them and went on to join a group that had as one of its aims murder or imprisonment of Muggleborns.
We agree on this point, then. And yet Snape was still "Best friends" with Lily well into fifth year, indicating Snape was able to resist the peer pressuse of these friends when it came to his relationship with Lily.

Quote:
Especially as they moved towards adulthood and placed themselves firmly on opposite sides of the war - Mulciber and Avery to Voldemort and murdering Muggleborns such as Lily, Lily to the Order and fighting Voldemort's followers.
I do not think Snape was involved with, or even favored, the murder of Muggleborns at the time Lily broke off the relationship. We certainly cannot assert this as a canon fact.

Quote:
From Snape's point of view, it might have been workable, however, he didn't consider Lily's perspective in this, at all, imo.
Nor do I see the evidence that Lily considered his perspective in this. As people love to say about Sev, Lily, and the Marauders, they were only X at the time! (In this instance, 16 for both).


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Last edited by arithmancer; February 2nd, 2010 at 1:39 am.
  #127  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 1:55 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
No, it is a statement about causality. Responsibility is a separate matter.

For example, Snape caused Voldemort to attack the Potters and give Lily a choice, resulting in his vaporization and the emergence of the Boy Who Lived. But this does not make him the savior of the Wizarding World.
No, but it does make him in part responsible for the Potters' deaths, imo. Joining the DEs was Snape's choice, I can't by any stretch of the imagination say that Lily caused him to make that decision by not forgiving him.

Quote:
We agree on this point, then. And yet Snape was still "Best friends" with Lily well into fifth year, indicating Snape was able to resist the peer pressuse of these friends when it came to his relationship with Lily.
Yet he didn't resist peer pressure in terms of the word Mudblood, or thinking dark magic was just a laugh. He resisted the peer pressure when it benefitted him.

Quote:
I do not think Snape was involved with, or even favored, the murder of Muggleborns at the time Lily broke off the relationship. We certainly cannot assert this as a canon fact.
I don't believe he did, either, at that time, but that was the direction his friends were headed, and Severus with them. There was a war going on in the outside world where Muggleborns were being persecuted. Joining the Death Eaters implies strongly to me that he did, at some point, see the persecution of Muggleborns as acceptable - it was one of Voldemort's big selling points.

Quote:
Nor do I see the evidence that Lily considered his perspective in this. As people love to say about Sev, Lily, and the Marauders, they were only X at the time! (In this instance, 16 for both).
Lily had maintained the friendship with Severus for five years at Hogwarts, despite her dislike of his other friends. It was only when he turned the most vicious racial slur in the wizarding world on her that she ended the friendship. I think continuing the friendship, despite knowing his other friends considered her inferior shows that she took his perspective into consideration. Severus, her best friend, considering her inferior, was a whole other matter. And that word does imply one considers the target inferior, it's been made quite clear throughout the books.


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  #128  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 2:13 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
No, it is a statement about causality. Responsibility is a separate matter.
Allow me to clarify. To say that if Lily had appreciated him more or give him another chance implies that she should have done something different, or that she didn't do enough to guide Snape in the right direction. I do not think Lily could have done any more than what she did already to even make Snape listen. Lily was already warning him that his friends were bad and why, and he did not listen. We even see him ignore it.

And to give him another chance would mean to excuse what he's doing even more. Something Lily states she was already doing, but that didn't go anywhere either. It is up to the other person if they want to change.

Moriath, if there's one thing I hate about this poll, it's that second option! >.<


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Last edited by RavenStar83; February 2nd, 2010 at 2:16 am.
  #129  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 2:14 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Severus, her best friend, considering her inferior, was a whole other matter. And that word does imply one considers the target inferior, it's been made quite clear throughout the books.
Do you believe that Severus Snape considered Lily Evans his inferior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
And to give him another chance would mean to excuse what he's doing even more. Something Lily states she was already doing, but that didn't go anywhere either. It is up to the other person if they want to change.
You seem to suggest that the only thing Lily could do, is more of the same. Is this your opinion?

Because it seems to me the more effective thing to do, if she were still interested in helping her erstwhile best friend, was to tell him how she saw things and what she wanted, in no uncertain terms. And if Snape then chose his other friends and unacceptable habits over her, fine.

Personally, I'd settle for Lily just letting Sev finish his sentences and answer her questions, which I suppose is even less.


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  #130  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 2:38 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
Do you believe that Severus Snape considered Lily Evans his inferior?
That is what the word mudblood implies, yes. As is explained in CoS, it's used by those who think Muggleborns aren't as good as they themselves are, we see that from its usage throughout the series. On some level, he saw Lily as a "mudblood". He made an exception for her, because he loved her. That wasn't good enough, imo. As her friend, blood shouldn't matter to him. Using that word, above anything else he could have said, suggests teenage Snape thinks of Lily in that way.

Quote:
You seem to suggest that the only thing Lily could do, is more of the same. Is this your opinion?

Because it seems to me the more effective thing to do, if she were still interested in helping her erstwhile best friend, was to tell him how she saw things and what she wanted, in no uncertain terms. And if Snape then chose his other friends and unacceptable habits over her, fine.

Personally, I'd settle for Lily just letting Sev finish his sentences and answer her questions, which I suppose is even less.
Lily did make efforts to tell Snape how she saw things - when she spoke of Mulciber and Avery. In that situation, he interrupted, and changed the topic to the Marauders. Lily was trying to tell him how she saw things, Severus just wasn't willing or able to listen.

Lily didn't let Severus finish his sentences that night outside Gryffindor Tower, no. Maybe she should have. However, I see a lot of discussion about Snape's feelings on the mudblood incident. Not so much on Lily's feelings.

She had just been humiliated, and felt betrayed by her best friend. Someone she had defended against her other friends' criticism, stood up to a group of popular boys for, and she had been the target of the most offensive word in the wizarding world in return.

I can see that she would be unwilling to listen in this situation. Maybe she should have, but what exactly could Severus say to excuse that word? It wasn't in any way acceptable.


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Last edited by FurryDice; February 2nd, 2010 at 2:41 am.
  #131  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 2:46 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
Do you believe that Severus Snape considered Lily Evans his inferior?
He seemed to believe that muggleborns in general were inferior and Lily was merely an exception or "one of the good ones" which is problematic whichever way you slice it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
Personally, I'd settle for Lily just letting Sev finish his sentences and answer her questions, which I suppose is even less.
Heh, I'd settle for Snape being able to explain himself...only he wasn't! He couldn't even lie and say that he was not interested in becoming a Death Eater. His inability to even defend himself spoke louder than words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
It wasn't up to Lily to give him an ultimatum in that regard, she tried advising him. If she'd presented him with an ultimatum, she'd probably be criticised for being pushy and demanding, imo.
I agree, which is a shame.


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  #132  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 3:31 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
You seem to suggest that the only thing Lily could do, is more of the same. Is this your opinion?

Because it seems to me the more effective thing to do, if she were still interested in helping her erstwhile best friend, was to tell him how she saw things and what she wanted, in no uncertain terms. And if Snape then chose his other friends and unacceptable habits over her, fine.
I think she made her feelings quite clear. She told him she thought Mulciber was creepy, then brings up what he did to Mary. Snape dismisses what he did as a joke. Then when Lily proceeds to tell him that it's Dark Magic, and Snape interrupts her.

And if we're going by what if's, as Furrydice said beforehand, pressuring Snape anymore than she did or giving him an ultimatum may be perceived as Lily nagging too much or being over controlling.

Quote:
Personally, I'd settle for Lily just letting Sev finish his sentences and answer her questions, which I suppose is even less.
If you are referring to the scene before SWM, it's not like Lily was able to finish what she wanted to say as I explained above, which is what they were originally talking about in that scene. And even when she does go back to it, Snape doesn't even pay much attention. So after all that and along with Snape calling her mudblood, I think Lily got her final answer in what her best friend had become. Which then goes to her not listening to him at the portrait door. Besides, Snape was only sorry for calling her a mudblood and making her upset. He was not sorry for what that word meant nor was he sorry for wanting to be around people who believed the meaning behind the word mudblood.


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  #133  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 5:18 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furry Dice
That is what the word mudblood implies, yes. As is explained in CoS, it's used by those who think Muggleborns aren't as good as they themselves are, we see that from its usage throughout the series. On some level, he saw Lily as a "mudblood". He made an exception for her, because he loved her. That wasn't good enough, imo. As her friend, blood shouldn't matter to him. Using that word, above anything else he could have said, suggests teenage Snape thinks of Lily in that way.
I don't believe that Snape saw Lily as his inferior. JMO

Yes, the word Mudblood is used throughout the series. One person who uses it alot is Draco, even though he certainly knows that Hermione is not really his inferior in any way due to her grades and performance in class. They are both top of the class and both Prefects, so he really knows they are equals. Proof of that - he "borrows" her idea for using the magical coins she invented for Dumbledore's Army.

Why would he use her Mudblood idea if he found her magic so inferior? The truth is - he doesn't really believe all the rhetoric he blabs about, imo. I see Snape much the same way.

In the books there are a vast number of instances of cognitive dissonance in which people say they believe one thing when in reality they don't believe it at all.

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously.

Yeah, such as knowing the rules, but breaking the rules. Even Gryffindors do that sometimes.

Hermione loves the rules, but still cheats sometimes and does Ron's homework or helps him get on the Quidditch Team. Harry stands up against Dark Magic, but uses it "for enemies" whenever he gets mad enough. He hated Snape but at the same time liked the Prince, and can't justify those two beliefs even in the face of the facts. He assumed the Prince had to be just like his father, or possibly was James! Now that's real cognitive dissonance!

Lily was just lucky that she had few problems with her belief system, except where Snape was concerned. By the time she let him know what a problem and a conflict he was for her, she was ready to break off the friendship, thus making a decision so she could avoid future cognitive dissonance.

For Snape it wasn't that easy, imo.

Why does this stuff happen? Because talk is cheap, especially with teenagers. JMO Most of the teens in the books wander around in a state of confusion similar to what kids go through in real life. Most of the time in the books and real life, opinionated teenagers realize they are saying things they don't mean, so they sometimes have to apologize.

In fact, Snape's apology to Lily is one of the few in the book that isn't accepted by a "friend." Another one reminiscent of it is when Harry refuses Cho Chang's apology at the end of OotP because he thinks Cho is more loyal to Marietta (the sneak) than to Hermione and the DA. Yet later he is able to flirt with Cho in Deathly Hallows, and Ginny breaks it up out of jealousy. How that fits with Snape/Lily/James is up for each reader to decide.

If Lily felt humiliated by the word Mudblood that day, she should have understood that Snape was also humiliated in other ways that day. If Lily didn't think so and didn't care, what kind of friend is that anyway? Just a rhetorical question.


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  #134  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 5:31 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
They are both top of the class and both Prefects, so he really knows they are equals. Proof of that - he "borrows" her idea for using the magical coins she invented for Dumbledore's Army.
Superiority complexes of this nature are MUCH deeper than academics and acknowledging one's strengths. Blood purists would still believe that, regardless of how good your grades are, that you're still inferior based on petty things such as your parentage. These people are illogical. If you're a blood purist and happen to acknowledge that a Muggle-Born was able to, I don't know, cure cancer, you're not going to suddenly believe that they aren't inferior. If anything, you'd see that success as even more of a threat and come up with more silly reasons as to why you're superior and they're still inferior despite strides and accomplishments. Thinking like a racist isn't fun but it makes everything make a lot more sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
In fact, Snape's apology to Lily is one of the few in the book that isn't accepted by a "friend."
Maybe she'd accept it or at least find some way to forgive him in the near future if his apology was backed up with an actual promise to reform himself. Instead, Lily got an "apology" with a side of "Er, yeah, I still want to be a death eater but I'm not going to admit it so I'll just say nothing". What self-respecting person would accept that?


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Last edited by random_musing; February 2nd, 2010 at 5:34 am.
  #135  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 5:48 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
That is what the word mudblood implies, yes. As is explained in CoS, it's used by those who think Muggleborns aren't as good as they themselves are, we see that from its usage throughout the series. On some level, he saw Lily as a "mudblood". He made an exception for her, because he loved her. That wasn't good enough, imo. As her friend, blood shouldn't matter to him. Using that word, above anything else he could have said, suggests teenage Snape thinks of Lily in that way.
This is a long answer to a simple question. I understand about the societal context, and the real-life analogies of the word, etc. etc. I understand that Lily may have taken Sev's statement to mean that Sev considered her his own inferior because of all of the above. What I am still not clear on, is are you saying that yes, you believe based on the preponderance of the evidence in the books, that Sev did consider Lily his inferior?

Quote:
Not so much on Lily's feelings.
This is not about fairness and equal time, this is about understanding the meaning of a series of books. If I and others thought there was something really interesting, debatable, controversial, requiring of clarification, etc. about Lily's feelings, we might be moved to post about it.

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I can see that she would be unwilling to listen in this situation.
So can I. If she was not ready to listen to an apology, I don't think she should have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by random_musing View Post
He couldn't even lie and say that he was not interested in becoming a Death Eater.
This would have, in your view, have made him a better friend to Lily?


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  #136  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 5:51 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I don't believe that Snape saw Lily as his inferior. JMO

Yes, the word Mudblood is used throughout the series. One person who uses it alot is Draco, even though he certainly knows that Hermione is not really his inferior in any way due to her grades and performance in class. They are both top of the class and both Prefects, so he really knows they are equals. Proof of that - he "borrows" her idea for using the magical coins she invented for Dumbledore's Army.

Why would he use her Mudblood idea if he found her magic so inferior? The truth is - he doesn't really believe all the rhetoric he blabs about, imo. I see Snape much the same way.

In the books there are a vast number of instances of cognitive dissonance in which people say they believe one thing when in reality they don't believe it at all.

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously.

Yeah, such as knowing the rules, but breaking the rules. Even Gryffindors do that sometimes.

Hermione loves the rules, but still cheats sometimes and does Ron's homework or helps him get on the Quidditch Team. Harry stands up against Dark Magic, but uses it "for enemies" whenever he gets mad enough. He hated Snape but at the same time liked the Prince, and can't justify those two beliefs even in the face of the facts. He assumed the Prince had to be just like his father, or possibly was James! Now that's real cognitive dissonance!

Lily was just lucky that she had few problems with her belief system, except where Snape was concerned. By the time she let him know what a problem and a conflict he was for her, she was ready to break off the friendship, thus making a decision so she could avoid future cognitive dissonance.

For Snape it wasn't that easy, imo.

Why does this stuff happen? Because talk is cheap, especially with teenagers. JMO Most of the teens in the books wander around in a state of confusion similar to what kids go through in real life. Most of the time in the books and real life, opinionated teenagers realize they are saying things they don't mean, so they sometimes have to apologize.

In fact, Snape's apology to Lily is one of the few in the book that isn't accepted by a "friend." Another one reminiscent of it is when Harry refuses Cho Chang's apology at the end of OotP because he thinks Cho is more loyal to Marietta (the sneak) than to Hermione and the DA. Yet later he is able to flirt with Cho in Deathly Hallows, and Ginny breaks it up out of jealousy. How that fits with Snape/Lily/James is up for each reader to decide.
I'm sorry, but this completely ignores what blood purist like Draco and his family believe and endorse, and the racism that is dominant through out the entire Wizarding World.

Just because Draco steals a couple of ideas from Hermione does not equate to him looking to her as an equal. Not only because we see Draco constantly ranting about how muggles and muggleborns are filthy and unworthy, but because racism does not work that way. Just because a person gets along with someone of another background than theirs does not mean they do not have any ill feelings for people of that background. (e.g. I've known White people in my neighborhood who get along with some of the Chinese people who live in the area, but will turn around and refer to Chinese people as a racial slur and constantly look down upon them whenever something out of their liking happens.)

Quote:
If Lily felt humiliated by the word Mudblood that day, she should have understood that Snape was also humiliated in other ways that day. If Lily didn't think so and didn't care, what kind of friend is that anyway? Just a rhetorical question.
Lily did care about what was happening to Snape, which is why she goes to his defense. But if you're referring to why Lily broke away from him, it's because of what Snape called Lily. I along with others in this thread have already explained what that is and why it is such a serious offense. But if it needs reminding, I'll repost MY past replies:

"I do understand it is easier to take your anger out on the people close to you. (We saw Harry do this through out Year 5.) But if Snape was going to take it out on Lily, he could have said so many other things directed at her. But he referred to her as a filthy mudblood. As I said before, it says a lot about a person when they use a racial slur. And I mention this because given how serious racism is in the books and how its executed, this is not something to take lightly regardless of the reason or what kind of person said it. Yet I have seen reasons explaining that this is something Lily should have forgiven, and she is criticized for not doing so."

"There are people in real life who use racial slurs out of anger all the time. But guess what? It's still racist. And the person lashing out the slur is a racist for doing so."





Quote:
Originally Posted by random_musing View Post
Superiority complexes of this nature are MUCH deeper than academics and acknowledging one's strengths. Blood purists would still believe that, regardless of how good your grades are, that you're still inferior based on petty things such as your parentage. These people are illogical. If you're a blood purist and happen to acknowledge that a Muggle-Born was able to, I don't know, cure cancer, you're not going to suddenly believe that they aren't inferior. If anything, you'd see that success as even more of a threat and come up with more silly reasons as to why you're superior and they're still inferior despite strides and accomplishments. Thinking like a racist isn't fun but it makes everything make a lot more sense.
You explained this a heck of a lot better than I ever could.


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  #137  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 5:51 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by random_musing View Post
Lily got an "apology" with a side of "Er, yeah, I still want to be a death eater but I'm not going to admit it so I'll just say nothing".
And where in the books do we get that particular insight into Severus' thoughts?


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  #138  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 5:59 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
racism does not work that way.
It works both ways. There are people who believe that a group of people are inferior yet still use their knowledge. At the same time, there are those who don't believe others are inferior but act like they believe it because that's what is expected of them or they have been taught that and don't really think about it. I think Snape falls into the latter category. If he had truly considered Lily his inferior he wouldn't have had half the problems he did because he would not have cared about her. He would have stopped being her friend a long time ago and stayed with his Slytherin friends.


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  #139  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 6:03 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
What I am still not clear on, is are you saying that yes, you believe based on the preponderance of the evidence in the books, that Sev did consider Lily his inferior?
I can't speak for Furrydice, but allow me to answer this because it can be a bit complex. I don't think Snape looked down on Lily in the way that Draco looks down on muggles and muggleborns. However, this still doesn't make Snape any less racist. By using the word mudlood, referring to Lily as a mudblood whether or not it is out of anger still shows that he believes the racist ideology to some extent. A person can still be friends with, even married and in love with someone of a different ethnic background, and still have racist feelings towards that background. Either way this is not good for the other person, not good for someone like Lily. Because that's their self-respect on the line.

So the answer I think is yes, Snape does look at Lily as his inferior. But it's not that black and white to just simply answer yes or no. And it doesn't make it any less degrading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
It works both ways. There are people who believe that a group of people are inferior yet still use their knowledge. At the same time, there are those who don't believe others are inferior but act like they believe it because that's what is expected of them or they have been taught that and don't really think about it. I think Snape falls into the latter category. If he had truly considered Lily his inferior he wouldn't have had half the problems he did because he would not have cared about her. He would have stopped being her friend a long time ago and stayed with his Slytherin friends.
I think whatever I wanted to reply to you was explained above already. Even if Snape's racism came mostly from peer pressure and that it just came naturally to him, it still doens't make it any less racist.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; February 2nd, 2010 at 6:06 am.
  #140  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 6:05 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
And if we're going by what if's, as Furrydice said beforehand, pressuring Snape anymore than she did or giving him an ultimatum may be perceived as Lily nagging too much or being over controlling.
You think Snape would have given up on Lily if she gave him an ultimatum, because he would have found her too controlling?

Quote:
Besides, Snape was only sorry for calling her a mudblood and making her upset. He was not sorry for what that word meant nor was he sorry for wanting to be around people who believed the meaning behind the word mudblood.
I agree. Snape was sorry for publicly insulting his best friend. This was the manner in which he believed/understood that he had transgressed against her and their friendship. He was not sorry for wanting to be around his other friends, because he did not grasp that this, too, was a transgression against Lily and their friendship.


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