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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6



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  #1001  
Old May 18th, 2013, 11:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I agree, Severus made bad choices as a young man, but as I see his development he did change this attitude. IMO, he went from a young man who had little regard for lives of others, to someone who actively saved lives.

DH, The Prince's Tale 'Don't be shocked Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?'
'Lately, only those I could not save,' said Snape
Whose life did he save? In that quote he admits he couldn't save anybody?


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  #1002  
Old May 18th, 2013, 11:41 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
A child or anyone being targeted by a murderer is never a good thing, IMHO.
Never a good thing = Always a bad thing. Never positive. Only negative. Wrong. Evil. Ugly. Horrible.

Snape was wrong to take the prophecy to LV. He was wrong to join the DEs. I suspect he would agree with me, considering his choices resulted in Lily's death. I also think he was young, selfish, and immature when he was 19. He hadn't lived long. He did not think things through.

I also think he was right to join Dumbledore and spy for The Order, which he did until the day he died. I think he'd agree with this as well, even though it cost him his own life, since in the end Lily's son lived and Voldemort was defeated. I agree with Harry and his opinion as well- Snape was probably the bravest man he ever knew. Snape did his best to make up for a very bad situation - one he had played a part in.

All my own opinion.


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Old May 18th, 2013, 11:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Never a good thing = Always a bad thing. Never positive. Only negative. Wrong. Evil. Ugly. Horrible.

Snape was wrong to take the prophecy to LV. He was wrong to join the DEs. I suspect he would agree with me, considering his choices resulted in Lily's death. I also think he was young, selfish, and immature when he was 19. He hadn't lived long. He did not think things through.

I also think he was right to join Dumbledore and spy for The Order, which he did until the day he died. I think he'd agree with this as well, even though it cost him his own life, since in the end Lily's son lived and Voldemort was defeated. I agree with Harry and his opinion as well- Snape was probably the bravest man he ever knew. Snape did his best to make up for a very bad situation - one he had played a part in.

All my own opinion.
And Snape died believing he had failed because he thought Harry was going to die. He had no idea that it was going to be the horcrux and Harry would survive.


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  #1004  
Old May 18th, 2013, 11:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
Whose life did he save? In that quote he admits he couldn't save anybody?
That's not how I intepret that quote. 'Only those I could not save' , suggests strongly to me that there were some that he did save.'Only those', infers to me that he saved some lives when he could do so, without giving away his double spy status.


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Old May 18th, 2013, 11:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
And Snape died believing he had failed because he thought Harry was going to die. He had no idea that it was going to be the horcrux and Harry would survive.
I'm sorry - you're right and I'm wrong.

Snape died thinking Harry was going to die, and he had no way of knowing Voldemort would be defeated. His death was a sad one, i think, all the way around.

Since Dumbledore knew what was going on after he died, based on his conversation with Harry, hopefully Snape found out as well - that Harry listened to his instructions and Voldemort was defeated.

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
That's not how I intepret that quote. 'Only those I could not save' , suggests strongly to me that there were some that he did save.'Only those', infers to me that he saved some lives when he could do so, without giving away his double spy status.
Snape also saved Harry in the first book, when Quirrellmort tried to knock him off his broom during Quiddich. If Snape had not been doing the counter curse, Harry would have died rather quickly.

Snape also saved Lupin during the flight of the 7 Potters. One of the DEs was aiming for him, and Snape did Sectumsempra, which accidentally hit George.

That's 2 off the top of my head.


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Last edited by MerryLore; May 19th, 2013 at 12:00 am.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 1:13 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
I'm sorry - you're right and I'm wrong.

I wasn't correcting you; my intention was just to add to your comment.


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Old May 19th, 2013, 1:28 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post

I wasn't correcting you; my intention was just to add to your comment.
I know, but when I believe I'm in the wrong, I'm more than happy to admit it And I was. Snape died not know how things turned out.

One thing I forgot to mention which i think pleased him - he got to give those final memories to Harry. Not only was he able to give Harry Dumbledore's instructions, but he got to share some of his memories of Lily. The last thing he saw was eyes that were the same as Lily's. Perhaps his death wasn't as bad as it seemed, even if he were killed in a dirty Shrieking Shack by a huge snake, unable to defend himself.


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Old May 19th, 2013, 4:08 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I agree. The reason Severus gave to Petunia in TPT, DH, for finding her beneath his notice was that she was a Muggle: "Wouldn't spy on you, anyway," he added spitefully, "you're a Muggle." There was also Severus's dismissive "She's only a--" on the train.
One thing I’ve not quite understood is the double standard that exists for Snape.

Snape is considered unilaterally spiteful when he calls Petunia a Muggle when he is only responding, in kind, to her condescension and sarcasm about his claim of being a wizard and her dissing the part of town where he lives. She also, later, calls him a liar and tries to embarrass him about his clothing.

Petunia calls Lily and Severus “freak” and “weirdo.” The meaning behind these names are the same as “Mudblood” would be to a Muggleborn. If she had had more specific derogatory terms to use, she would have done so. That Snape only responds by not calling her a muggle is mild in comparison.

When Snape causes the branch to fall on her, he is labeled vicious and the act intentional. But when Harry blows up his Aunt Marge – a much more serious action and one which could have killed her – it’s considered justified and unintentional.

I just don’t get it.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
There is also Child Severus's belief that Lily was okay because she had loads of magic, which he stated after Lily asked him if being Muggleborn mattered. I think as a child Severus split things into camps of non-magical and magical, with non-magical being bad and magical being good, and the more magic one had the better.
That does seem quite likely, especially if he was bullied by muggles – which apparently his muggle father had a hand in cementing, if not forming, such a viewpoint. To have a parent so abusive and/or neglectful has a powerful effect on a child and one it will take a long time to overcome.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
As Severus grew, I think his Magic=Good belief started to include the idea that one needed magical heritage to go along with one's magical powers, and so Muggleborns joined the ranks of Muggles as something to be despised, and that's why he started calling Muggleborns at his school Mudblood, including Lily.
With his sorting into and acceptance by Slytherin house and his apparent bullying by “blood traitors,” I can definitely see that happening.

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
I highly doubt he thought it referred to a dark wizard. No one else did. As I understand it, the Death Eaters only suspected Harry might be a dark wizard after Voldemort's downfall, because a baby defeating Voldemort was inexplicable to them, and they thought it must mean Harry was dark and powerful. I don't think most of the Death Eaters even knew about the Prophecy; was it ever stated that anyone other than Snape, Voldemort, and Pettigrew knew?
But if Snape joined the DE’s to seek power and was a follower of LV’s, then he would have accepted LV’s premise that the Dark Arts constituted the most powerful magic and only Dark wizards practiced that kind of magic. It would not even have occurred to him that a wizard from the other side was capable of vanquishing LV. And if the DE’s found it inexplicable that a baby could defeat Voldemort, then why couldn’t Snape come to a similar conclusion prior to relaying the prophecy to Voldemort?

Did Pettigrew know of the prophecy? I don't recall that he did.

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
The Prophecy states: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..."

Honestly, I think it's a pretty big stretch to interpret that as an adult, when it's in the present tense about the person being born in July. I doubt Snape spent all this time dissecting possible meanings of every word. When Voldemort and Dumbledore analyzed it, they both came to the same conclusion, that it was a baby born to Order members who had defied him... and they were the two that probably looked at every possible meaning to those words.
We have no canon as to what DD thought of the prophecy before the Potter’s were murdered. We only ever have his commentary on the subject after Harry is chosen by LV. DD has the entire prophecy so why does he not try to protect potential victims until after Snape asks him to protect Lily? Because he doesn’t know how LV will interpret that prophecy and so does not know who to protect. If DD can’t figure it out, why is Snape accused of being able to?

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
Voldemort was already being referred to as "You-Know-Who" in Snape's fifth year, which means the horrors he was committing with his Death Eaters were no secret.
True, but we saw in Harry’s case how the truth can be twisted by the Ministry and the press when they tried to make him out as a liar. Now it’s not possible there was some kind of PR spin by LV’s followers that left some facts in question? We don’t know for certain, but if it happened once, surely it could have happened previously?

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
And you didn't answer my question about why it was OK for Snape to plot to murder a baby that might grow up to be another Dark Lord?
There’s no evidence that Snape “plotted” a baby murder. Giving an ambiguous prophecy to Voldemort does not constitute a “plot.” It was known that not all prophecies necessarily came to pass. Nor could Snape have precisely predicted how LV would react to the prophecy. It’s often difficult to predict the behavior of a megalomaniac.

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Originally Posted by yorkiedoodle View Post
Do we know for sure that 'Levicorpus' was Snape's spell?
Yes we do:
HBP: Silver and OpalsHarry had already attempted a few of the Prince’s self-invented spells. There had been a hex that caused toenails to grow alarmingly fast (he had tried this on Crabbe in the corridor, with very entertaining results); a jinx that glued the tongue to the roof of the mouth (which he had twice used, to general applause, on an unsuspecting Argus Filch); and, perhaps most useful of all, Muffliato, a spell that filled the ears of anyone nearby with an unidentifiable buzzing, so that lengthy conversations could be held in class without being overheard. The only person who did not find these charms amusing was Hermione, who maintained a rigidly disapproving expression throughout and refused to talk at all if Harry had used the Muffliato spell on anyone in the vicinity.

Sitting up in bed, Harry turned the book sideways so as to examine more closely the scribbled instructions for a spell that seemed to have caused the Prince some trouble. There were many crossings-out and alterations, but finally, crammed into a corner of the page, the scribble:

Levicorpus (nvbl)


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Originally Posted by yorkiedoodle View Post
It was written in the Potions book, but Harry questions Remus about it at the Weasley's (thinking it was his dad's because he saw James use it on Snape in the pensieve) but Remus doesn't know who designed it.

Given the enmity between Snape and the Marauders, and the fact that they would have had lessons together, surely they would've known if Snape had designed the spell
Remus seems a little clueless about things from time to time. The spell probably became so ubiquitous so quickly that the name of the original author was lost.

Although some believe Levicorpus was a nasty little spell, we only see it used by James Potter, his son, Harry and it actually saved the day when Hermione used it on Harry to retrieve the Hufflepuff cup from the Lestrange vault.


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Last edited by mirrormere; May 19th, 2013 at 4:31 am.
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  #1009  
Old May 19th, 2013, 5:25 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Snape is considered unilaterally spiteful when he calls Petunia a Muggle when he is only responding, in kind, to her condescension and sarcasm about his claim of being a wizard and her dissing the part of town where he lives. She also, later, calls him a liar and tries to embarrass him about his clothing.
Petunia is at fault for judging based on status, yes. I don't think I've ever seen anyone excuse her for this; she's very clearly judgemental about Snape's appearance, and that is definitely wrong, but this is a completely separate issue. The thing is, Snape was aware of an entirely different world, one where Muggles were seen as lesser, even by the well-meaning types like the Weasleys. The magical world was aware of Muggles, but Muggles were not aware of wizards--wizard who oppressed Muggles in a lot of ways. Muggles could not oppress wizards by default of not even knowing of their existence.


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Petunia calls Lily and Severus “freak” and “weirdo.” The meaning behind these names are the same as “Mudblood” would be to a Muggleborn. If she had had more specific derogatory terms to use, she would have done so. That Snape only responds by not calling her a muggle is mild in comparison.
Those words didn't have nearly the same power as "mudblood" did. Petunia was using regular insults that could apply to basically anyone. "Mudblood" was a slur specifically used on muggleborns, and it had a lot of history and prejudice attached to it. By using the word "mudblood", one was asserting superiority and privilege over muggleborns, demeaning them as less than purebloods, of being worthless. The word wasn't just used against the one person, but against the entire "race" of muggleborns. There's a very big difference between using such a slur and any regular insult.


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When Snape causes the branch to fall on her, he is labeled vicious and the act intentional. But when Harry blows up his Aunt Marge – a much more serious action and one which could have killed her – it’s considered justified and unintentional.
I think the reason people give Harry more of a break here is because Harry was being viciously provoked by Aunt Marge; she was repeatedly insulting his dead parents, who were an obviously emotional point in his life as he was an orphan, and the readers knew how much of a horrible childhood he had to endure at the hands of the Dursleys. On the other hand, Snape hurt Petunia because she was listening in on a conversation, and mocked his clothing (and it was pretty obvious Petunia was jealous and hurt at being left out, there).


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But if Snape joined the DE’s to seek power and was a follower of LV’s, then he would have accepted LV’s premise that the Dark Arts constituted the most powerful magic and only Dark wizards practiced that kind of magic. It would not even have occurred to him that a wizard from the other side was capable of vanquishing LV. And if the DE’s found it inexplicable that a baby could defeat Voldemort, then why couldn’t Snape come to a similar conclusion prior to relaying the prophecy to Voldemort?
But he would have also had evidence that Dumbledore was just as powerful, and he only used "good" magic. It was well known that Dumbledore was the one person Voldemort ever feared. So why would Snape have found it so hard to believe that someone from Dumbledore's side could've possibly defeated Voldemort? If the biggest threat at the time was someone so noble as Dumbledore, why would "the chosen one" have to be dark?


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We have no canon as to what DD thought of the prophecy before the Potter’s were murdered. We only ever have his commentary on the subject after Harry is chosen by LV. DD has the entire prophecy so why does he not try to protect potential victims until after Snape asks him to protect Lily? Because he doesn’t know how LV will interpret that prophecy and so does not know who to protect. If DD can’t figure it out, why is Snape accused of being able to?
Jo said in an interview that Lily and James went into hiding when Lily became pregnant--which implies Dumbledore warned them of the prophecy right away. I'm not sure at the moment, but there might have been some canon information about that as well. I'll look that up.

No one is accusing Snape of "figuring out" the prophecy in any which way. I don't think it matters much what he decided the prophecy meant, though I think it's a big stretch to say that in the short amount of time between when he heard the prophecy and when he handed the info over to Voldemort, he analyzed the words in such a way as to interpret it as referring to an adult, dark wizard. I think he took it at the most obvious meaning, much like Dumbledore and Voldemort did. In the end I think it all comes down to the fact that Snape did not care about the loss of life unless it involved Lily.


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True, but we saw in Harry’s case how the truth can be twisted by the Ministry and the press when they tried to make him out as a liar. Now it’s not possible there was some kind of PR spin by LV’s followers that left some facts in question? We don’t know for certain, but if it happened once, surely it could have happened previously?
The PR spin in Harry's case was because the Ministry was too afraid of having to deal with Voldemort's return, and so they tried to cover up any dark issues going on. During the first war, I can't imagine why the Ministry would want to cover it up. They had no motive at that point, and Voldemort never got control of the Ministry.

My point was that, whatever information was coming to the general population, true or false, it was that Voldemort was so dangerous and cruel that people were too afraid to even speak his name. So even IF for some reason the Ministry decided to stem the truth, people were still terrified of Voldemort to the point of calling him You-Know-Who. Therefore Snape could not have been wildly misguided into thinking Voldemort was in any way harmless.


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There’s no evidence that Snape “plotted” a baby murder. Giving an ambiguous prophecy to Voldemort does not constitute a “plot.” It was known that not all prophecies necessarily came to pass. Nor could Snape have precisely predicted how LV would react to the prophecy. It’s often difficult to predict the behavior of a megalomaniac.
I think it was almost a given that Voldemort would want to eliminate any threat. Since the prophecy (taken at its most basic meaning) referred to a child yet to be born to parents who were opposed to Voldemort, I think Snape would have put two and two together and known that he was condemning an innocent life to death.


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Old May 19th, 2013, 8:34 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
There's a big difference in being in danger and being in imminent danger. A lot of people were in danger from Voldemort and his band, but, once he personally targeted someone, as he did the Potters, the danger level went to the top of the scale. I think that was what spurred Severus to action and why he met with Dumbledore.
Lily was a Muggleborn, a member of the group of people the DEs were trying to eliminate. She was also a member of the Order, who had thrice defied Voldemort. He already knew who she was and what she was. I don't see how Snape could have deluded himself that she wasn't in that much danger, or that she would be fine.

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When Lily was killed Severus could have walked away and told Dumbledore that they were even. But, he didn't.
They were not even, though. IMO, if Snape had refused to take responsibility for his crimes, then Dumbledore would have had him arrested. He would have gone to Azkaban with his fellow DEs.
Quote:

Dumbledore uses Severus' grief and guilt to his own ends, getting him to agree to protect Harry once he arrives at Hogwarts.
Yes, Dumbledore got Snape to take responsibility for his crimes. I don't think Dumbledore should or would have just allowed Snape to skulk off into the sunset scowling and self-pitying.

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Some posters believe that the ten years before Harry got there were just free time. I think the time was spent mastering the skills that Severus knew he would need to match wits with Voldemort when he returned. He didn't learn his Legilimency and Occlumency skills overnight. And, his dueling skills and mastering of spells also took time. He might have been pretty good as a young man, but I don't think he'd have been any match for Voldemort. Whatever it took, he must have done it because he fooled LV for four years, putting himself in extreme danger every time he met with him.
Snape spent ten years studying as well as working in a prestigious school. Compared to Azkaban, I don't see that as a hardship.

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I kinda think it must have taken Snape years to get over what he had done. I don't think he ever got over it. His basic, as I see it selfishness would always surfaced. It surfaced every-time he was vicious to the 11 year old Harry who knew nothing about his past. It surfaced when he lashed out at Neville, another innocent who had suffered pain and loss at the hands of the Death Eaters, and it surfaced when he was faced with the proof that Sirius was not the traitor, but rather James and Lily's true friend who willingly would have faced Voldemort on his own to protect them.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Yes, Snape was a genocidal dictator's lieutenant. That does not yet make him a purebred monster - and he proved he wasn't one with his redemption story, in my opinion.
But where is the redemption story if his actions are trivialised, made to look less wrong, blamed on others?

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
There is also Child Severus's belief that Lily was okay because she had loads of magic, which he stated after Lily asked him if being Muggleborn mattered. I think as a child Severus split things into camps of non-magical and magical, with non-magical being bad and magical being good, and the more magic one had the better.
Sounds like a prevailing attitude among Voldemort and his followers. "There is only power and those too weak to seek it" "Magic is might"

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As Severus grew, I think his Magic=Good belief started to include the idea that one needed magical heritage to go along with one's magical powers, and so Muggleborns joined the ranks of Muggles as something to be despised, and that's why he started calling Muggleborns at his school Mudblood, including Lily.
I think that makes sense. It reminds me of what Kingsley said in the Potterwatch broadcast - about it being all too easy to go from wizards first, to purebloods first, to DEs first.

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I really think it was something like that. I really think Snape thought that if his activities that endangered Muggleborns would ever threaten Lily directly, he would be able to do something about it. I think Snape's rude awakening was that when he did directly endanger Lily and asked Voldemort for her life, he found that he really did not have that much control over the situation; Voldemort might spare her for Snape, or he might not, depending on his whim. I think that realization was what made him decide to hedge his bets by going to Dumbledore, too.
I agree. Snape never saw the possibility that his actions might have negative consequences for him.

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Seen in this light, i think it's very possible Snape thought the same way about the prophecy in the beginning - that it may have referred to the child of a supporter of Voldemort, or a current adult member, and not a member of The Order.
And what if he did? Does it matter who he thought the target would be? It was wrong, no matter who the target was. I fail to see what difference it makes if Snape thought it referred to a baby or to an Order member or anyone else.

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
But let's suppose for a minute here that Snape did think this would be the birth of a new Dark Lord. What exactly would that have meant to him? He still carried the Prophecy to Voldemort in the full knowledge that Voldemort was not the type of criminal to sit by while a threat to his power base existed. So in that case Snape would be conspiring to kill in infant who may or may not have been another possible Dark Lord. This puts him in a good light, how exactly? As far as I know conspiring to kill an infant no matter that infant's destiny, is still murder. Or is it OK to kill an infant because he might grow up to be a criminal? You put out the theory, please explain to us just why that is is a good reason for Snape to conspire in murder?

I agree. There is nothing that makes passing on the prophecy okay. Nothing makes it less evil. It would have been wrong no matter who was targetted.

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He dismissed Lily's feelings for someone she loved because that person was a muggle.
I think he was quite good at dismissing Lily's feelings in general.

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Voldemort was already being referred to as "You-Know-Who" in Snape's fifth year, which means the horrors he was committing with his Death Eaters were no secret. The fact that the gang Snape hung around with, almost all of whom became Death Eaters, called every muggleborn "mudbloods" is also pretty evident that the main targets in this war were muggles and muggleborns.

I agree. People knew what the DEs were doing. Some thought it was a good thing. Some thought they could use it to their own benefit. Anyone with a conscience thought it was wrong and evil.

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After Voldemort's downfall, Dumbledore said "we've had precious little to celebrate for 11 years"; that means the war at least started, or was already in full swing by Snape's first year. I can't see how Snape was kept in the dark about what was going on.
He can't have been. People were already calling Voldemort "You-Know-Who" by Snape's fifth year. People were afraid to say his name. There was a reason for that. Regulus had press cuttings about the DE crimes, so they were well publicised. Add to that the likelhihood that kids at school with Snape may have been losing their families to the DEs, as happened in HBP when Voldemort was active again.


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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
I can see Snape viewing it as a potential rival for Voldemort, as the DEs did later, once they learned about it. Plus, Snape was a soldier - it wasn't his place to interpret it, and my guess is he didn't even think much about it. I'm not excusing Snape's actions, BTW. I'm only analyzing them. A child or anyone being targeted by a murderer is never a good thing, IMHO.
Snape clearly thought about it - he analysed enough to see that the prophecy was about a threat to his master. He carried it to his master. Snape was not an idiot; he knew that the person referred to would be marked for death. It does not matter who Snape thought this person might be - it would have been wrong no matter who was targetted. It did not just become wrong when Lily was in danger.


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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
Somehow I don't see LV sending a person with the Dark Mark to apply for a job at Hogwarts. He knew Dumbledore's Legilimency powers, and I don't think Severus would have been that capable at Occlumency, not capable enough to stand up to DD. Maybe that would have been his reward for getting the DADA job.
Even if Snape did not have a Dark Mark at that point, wouldn't Dumbledore have known via Legilimency that Snape was a DE-wannabe, that he was serving Voldemort, even if he had not been marked? I don't see this as proof that Snape had not been marked at the time. He may have been, he may not have been. But a Dark Mark was not the only thing he would have wanted to hide from Dumbledore.


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I'm not sure I've seen anyone post that it was OK for Severus, or anyone else, to plot the murder of a baby -- or an adult.
I disagree. I've been looking at all the posts saying that there might have been alternative interpretations of the prophecy. Voldemort might have interpreted it differently - but so what if he had? He would still have tried to murder someone because of it. Snape knew that. I don't see why it matters what Snape thought it might mean. No matter who would have been targetted, it was wrong. There is no way to make carrying the prophecy less evil, IMO.

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We do know that Severus asked that Lily's life be spared and didn't trust Voldemort enough to rely on his agreement that he would if she stayed out of the way. Severus, more than likely, knew Lily would never stand aside and allow her child to be killed. So, at great risk to himself, Severus turned to Dumbledore.
Snape never knew or understood Lily, truly. Snape never knew what she would choose or want. I don't see him as understanding that she would refuse to step aside - this is the man who thought that Lily would be supportive of his career as a terrorist.

And we don't know that Voldemort told Snape he would spare Lily "if she stayed out of the way". We don't know what terms and conditions Voldemort put on that. He might have just agreed to spare Lily, without attaching conditions such as her stepping aside.

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Of course it was wrong to plot a murder (unless, of course, it was the MoM using what Dumbledore considered measures sometimes as extreme as the DE's??). It was wrong to belong to the DEs in the first place. Even Severus' fans admit he was far from perfect. But, we also feel that he should get the credit due for the things he did right as well as getting bashed for the things he did wrong.
I don't consider it bashing to point out that there is no justification for passing on the prophecy. There is nothing to make that less evil. It would have been wrong no matter who Voldemort targetted. There is nothing that makes Snape's actions in passing on the prophecy less callous and selfish.

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Snape was wrong to take the prophecy to LV. He was wrong to join the DEs. I suspect he would agree with me, considering his choices resulted in Lily's death. I also think he was young, selfish, and immature when he was 19. He hadn't lived long. He did not think things through.
Considering his choices resulted in Lily's death? It would have been equally, 100% as wrong even if Lily had not died. No matter who died, Snape's actions as a DE were wrong. I do hope that Snape came to recognise that it was not just wrong because of Lily's death, but I doubt it.

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Snape did his best to make up for a very bad situation - one he had played a part in.
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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
And Snape died believing he had failed because he thought Harry was going to die. He had no idea that it was going to be the horcrux and Harry would survive.
He had only failed if his priorities were still his own selfish ones. If his priority was to work towards the death of Voldemort, he had succeeded. Harry knew the horcrux within him had to be destroyed - Snape passed on that information. Now, if Snape's priorities were still making himself feel better and imagining that he was making amends to Lily, then he might have considered himself to have failed.

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
One thing I’ve not quite understood is the double standard that exists for Snape.
Yes, I find that hard to understand, too.

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But if Snape joined the DE’s to seek power and was a follower of LV’s, then he would have accepted LV’s premise that the Dark Arts constituted the most powerful magic and only Dark wizards practiced that kind of magic. It would not even have occurred to him that a wizard from the other side was capable of vanquishing LV. And if the DE’s found it inexplicable that a baby could defeat Voldemort, then why couldn’t Snape come to a similar conclusion prior to relaying the prophecy to Voldemort?

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We have no canon as to what DD thought of the prophecy before the Potter’s were murdered. We only ever have his commentary on the subject after Harry is chosen by LV. DD has the entire prophecy so why does he not try to protect potential victims until after Snape asks him to protect Lily? Because he doesn’t know how LV will interpret that prophecy and so does not know who to protect. If DD can’t figure it out, why is Snape accused of being able to?

Nobody is accusing Snape of being unable to figure out who the victims would have been. The point is, that Snape knew there would be victims because of his information. It does not matter who the victims would have been - Snape put them in jeopardy. Dumbledore may not have known who to protect, but Snape wilfully and deliberately put someone in danger for his own personal gain. It does not matter who would have died. It would have been equally wrong no matter who Voldemort chose. Contrary to what Snape believed.


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There’s no evidence that Snape “plotted” a baby murder. Giving an ambiguous prophecy to Voldemort does not constitute a “plot.” It was known that not all prophecies necessarily came to pass. Nor could Snape have precisely predicted how LV would react to the prophecy. It’s often difficult to predict the behavior of a megalomaniac.
It's not that difficult to predict that Voldemort would want to murder a prophesied threat against him. Snape was not a clueless innocent in this. He passed on information, knowing full well that his information would make someone a target. That makes him an accessory.

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Although some believe Levicorpus was a nasty little spell, we only see it used by James Potter, his son, Harry and it actually saved the day when Hermione used it on Harry to retrieve the Hufflepuff cup from the Lestrange vault.
When Snape fled Hogwarts in HBP, he claimed it for his own, when Harry tried to use it against him - "you dare to use my own spells against me, Potter?"

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
Those words didn't have nearly the same power as "mudblood" did. Petunia was using regular insults that could apply to basically anyone. "Mudblood" was a slur specifically used on muggleborns, and it had a lot of history and prejudice attached to it. By using the word "mudblood", one was asserting superiority and privilege over muggleborns, demeaning them as less than purebloods, of being worthless. The word wasn't just used against the one person, but against the entire "race" of muggleborns. There's a very big difference between using such a slur and any regular insult.
I agree. "Mudblood" is a very specific slur. It demeans the person it is used against. It demeans a whole group of people. It is used by bigots who consider Muggleborns to be subhuman.

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Jo said in an interview that Lily and James went into hiding when Lily became pregnant--which implies Dumbledore warned them of the prophecy right away. I'm not sure at the moment, but there might have been some canon information about that as well. I'll look that up.
I don't think Dumbledore could have warned them that quickly. The wording of the prophecy -"approaches" implies that Lily was already pregnant when it was made. And even if her due date was the end of July, babies are rarely born exactly on their due dates. They had no way of knowing for certain that Harry would be born at the end of July until it happened. I think they may have gone into hiding for the simple reason that she was pregnant, and that they wanted to protect their child, and they knew they were at risk as known members of the Order. And surely high-profile ones, as they had thrice defied Voldemort.

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In the end I think it all comes down to the fact that Snape did not care about the loss of life unless it involved Lily.
I agree. Snape did not care who he hurt, until it became a possiblity that he might experience the grief he was willing to cause others. But, contrary to what Snape believed, it would have been wrong no matter who Voldemort chose. As it would have been wrong if Voldemort had moved Lily out of the way and murdered Harry instead. As it would have been wrong if he'd gone after the Longbottoms. As it would have been wrong no matter who was targetted because of the prophecy. IMO, all attempts at putting another spin on the prophecy ignore that. It was wrong, no matter who was targetted.


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The PR spin in Harry's case was because the Ministry was too afraid of having to deal with Voldemort's return, and so they tried to cover up any dark issues going on. During the first war, I can't imagine why the Ministry would want to cover it up. They had no motive at that point, and Voldemort never got control of the Ministry.
Voldemort and his followers left the Dark Mark wherever they murdered. I'm pretty sure they would have had a hard time putting a positive spin on that.

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My point was that, whatever information was coming to the general population, true or false, it was that Voldemort was so dangerous and cruel that people were too afraid to even speak his name. So even IF for some reason the Ministry decided to stem the truth, people were still terrified of Voldemort to the point of calling him You-Know-Who. Therefore Snape could not have been wildly misguided into thinking Voldemort was in any way harmless.

I agree. Nobody with a shred of sense or decency thought that Voldemort was doing anything good and harmless. People were afraid to say his name. Snape was hanging out with bigots who considered Muggleborns to be subhuman filth - by any stretch of the imagination, such people are not harmless. Nobody could fool themselves into thinking that an active movement of such fanatical bigots is doing something good. IMO, those who joined Voldemort did s either because they really believed that murdering Muggleborns was a good thing, or because they did not care who was murdered as long as they got something - as Quirrell said, there is no good and evil only power and those too weak to seek it. IMO, if Snape was not a true believer in the bigotry, this was his attitude. It did not matter who he hurt, whose lives he destroyed, as long as he gained something.

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I think it was almost a given that Voldemort would want to eliminate any threat. Since the prophecy (taken at its most basic meaning) referred to a child yet to be born to parents who were opposed to Voldemort, I think Snape would have put two and two together and known that he was condemning an innocent life to death.
I agree. It is really not that complicated. However Voldemort interpreted that prophecy, he was going to murder someone because of it. There is no getting away from that. Snape passed on the prophecy knowing that someone would be targetted because of his information. It was wrong, there is no excuse, no justification and nothing to make it less callous than it was. And contrary to what Snape believed, it did not just become wrong when Voldemort chose Lily's family. It was wrong to tell Voldemort, and it would have been wrong if Voldemort had chosen the Longbottoms instead, or anyone else. So, I really don't see the reason for trying to put alternative spins on the prophecy to make Snape's actions seem less malevolent.


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  #1011  
Old May 19th, 2013, 9:04 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
Petunia is at fault for judging based on status, yes. I don't think I've ever seen anyone excuse her for this; she's very clearly judgemental about Snape's appearance, and that is definitely wrong, but this is a completely separate issue. The thing is, Snape was aware of an entirely different world, one where Muggles were seen as lesser, even by the well-meaning types like the Weasleys. The magical world was aware of Muggles, but Muggles were not aware of wizards--wizard who oppressed Muggles in a lot of ways. Muggles could not oppress wizards by default of not even knowing of their existence.
Severus was a socially awkward child who lacked self esteem. Making fun of his clothes and being derisive about the neighborhood he lived in probably hurt him very much. Yes, he was aware of another world, but, at the age of nine he was far from oppressing anyone and was, himself, at least emotionally, if not physically, abused by a Muggle...his father. Petunia's jibes were just salt in already existing wounds. And, though we know Severus did bring the limb down on her, we do not know for sure that was intentional. It was accidental magic and the result of anger, just as Harry's was the result of listening to his parents being trashed by Aunt Marge.

Severus knew, after it happened, that he'd caused it and tried to cover it up because he didn't want Lily mad at him. But, IMO, he really didn't have control over what form his accidental magic took when under duress, just like Harry growing his hair back, jumping on the roof at school, freeing a boa constrictor, or blowing up Aunt Marge.

Other than Voldemort, I didn't see any other wizards "oppressing" Muggles. They looked down on them, but, if I could do magic like that I might feel a bit superior to someone who couldn't perform magic at all. Many Muggles who are talented in one way or another look down on those who aren't. You don't have to be a wizard or witch to feel that way.


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Those words didn't have nearly the same power as "mudblood" did. Petunia was using regular insults that could apply to basically anyone. "Mudblood" was a slur specifically used on muggleborns, and it had a lot of history and prejudice attached to it. By using the word "mudblood", one was asserting superiority and privilege over muggleborns, demeaning them as less than purebloods, of being worthless. The word wasn't just used against the one person, but against the entire "race" of muggleborns. There's a very big difference between using such a slur and any regular insult.
Truth is, we don't know how hurtful the insults that Petunia threw at Severus were because we weren't given access to this thoughts, other than he became angry -- partly because she was spying on him and Lily and partly because she was being extremely insulting. We don't know what other insults he might have endured on a daily basis from his father and, possibly, other children and neighbors in Spinner's End. The way Petunia used "freak," it was pretty much a racial slur, because she was aiming it at one particular group, magical folk. She used it to refer to Severus and Lily and told Lily that's why they were being sent away to school, to protect regular people from them.

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I think the reason people give Harry more of a break here is because Harry was being viciously provoked by Aunt Marge; she was repeatedly insulting his dead parents, who were an obviously emotional point in his life as he was an orphan, and the readers knew how much of a horrible childhood he had to endure at the hands of the Dursleys. On the other hand, Snape hurt Petunia because she was listening in on a conversation, and mocked his clothing (and it was pretty obvious Petunia was jealous and hurt at being left out, there).
(See above paragraph)

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But he would have also had evidence that Dumbledore was just as powerful, and he only used "good" magic. It was well known that Dumbledore was the one person Voldemort ever feared. So why would Snape have found it so hard to believe that someone from Dumbledore's side could've possibly defeated Voldemort? If the biggest threat at the time was someone so noble as Dumbledore, why would "the chosen one" have to be dark?
Let's look at the scene in which Severus overhears part of the Prophecy: He has been sent by LV to secure a position at Hogwarts so he can spy on Dumbledore. He overhears something saying that a wizard with the power to vanquish Voldemort is approaching. IMO, the fact that LV was mentioned may have been the only reason he listened at the keyhole in the first place. Aberforth catches him eavesdropping, which keeps him from hearing the entire Prophecy, and Dumbledore is alerted to this breach of security. Severus has to return to Voldemort and tell him, not only did he not get the job but that he'd screwed up the opportunity to even interview by being caught snooping at keyholes. It doesn't take much imagination to know that LV wouldn't be a happy camper about that news and Severus would pay a price.

I doubt that he really gave that much thought to any part of the Prophecy except the part referring to someone who would be able to vanquish the Dark Lord. He was 19, or so, and, if Bella's taunts are to be believed, he was not very active in the more "physical" activities of LV's followers. As I said earlier, we don't even know when he got is Dark Mark, but I seriously doubt LV would have sent him to seek a job at Hogwarts with one. I think that might have been his test to become a full-fledged DE. He didn't get the mark because of getting the job, obviously, but he may have gotten it because of relaying the Prophecy. We're not given specific information about this, so we can pretty much interpret it in our own way.

That he didn't care someone might get killed was wrong. But, there is nothing that says Severus actually helped Voldemort plan or carry out a murder. Just the opposite. He tried to prevent one by going to Dumbledore as soon as he knew it was aimed at Lily and begged for protection for her, and, eventually for James and Harry, too. Lily was his main focus. That isn't unusual. As soon as Dumbledore admonished him for his lack of concern for other lives, though, he included James and Harry and promised "anything" to help keep them all safe.


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Jo said in an interview that Lily and James went into hiding when Lily became pregnant--which implies Dumbledore warned them of the prophecy right away. I'm not sure at the moment, but there might have been some canon information about that as well. I'll look that up.
I don't think that fits with the timeline. Dumbledore was doing interviews in damp and cold weather, but not in snow. Since he was interviewing for the upcoming term, it was probably early to mid Spring, say March or April, maybe even May. Harry was born in July, so Lily would have been at least 4 to 6 months along, so they couldn't have gone into hiding when she became pregnant.

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No one is accusing Snape of "figuring out" the prophecy in any which way. I don't think it matters much what he decided the prophecy meant, though I think it's a big stretch to say that in the short amount of time between when he heard the prophecy and when he handed the info over to Voldemort, he analyzed the words in such a way as to interpret it as referring to an adult, dark wizard. I think he took it at the most obvious meaning, much like Dumbledore and Voldemort did. In the end I think it all comes down to the fact that Snape did not care about the loss of life unless it involved Lily.
I don't think, if a group of people are in danger, it would be unusual for someone to think of their loved one first and that would be their key focus. Even more so for someone as withdrawn as Severus, who doesn't have a lot of concern for other peoples' feelings through most of the books. Lily was his primary concern. We know he had a pretty stormy history with James, and it doesn't strike me as odd that he wouldn't give a tinker's damn about him. Not having been very loved as a child himself, Harry wouldn't have garnered much thought either. But, DD took care of that and Severus, himself, seemed ashamed that he'd not considered Lily's loved ones.

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The PR spin in Harry's case was because the Ministry was too afraid of having to deal with Voldemort's return, and so they tried to cover up any dark issues going on. During the first war, I can't imagine why the Ministry would want to cover it up. They had no motive at that point, and Voldemort never got control of the Ministry.
I doubt that the MoM was keeping Voldy's reputation a secret. IMO, it was the members themselves who tried to downplay the negatives. Most groups, either good or bad, advertise their positives, not their negatives. I doubt LV's followers were handing out badges that said "We kill Muggles and Mudbloods. Torture is optional." Their emphasis was probably on a sense of power and having control of one's life. Severus had had little power or control over his life up to that time. He'd had, from what we see, negative interactions with Muggles. And, even though he was a half-blood, it may have given him a sense of superiority over Muggles and Muggle-borns to belong to LV's group. Severus, as we see him in the early memories of TPT, was easy pickings for someone offering him a bit of self-esteem. Once he got in, the same as Regulus Black, the only way out was to die. I don't think he considered that an option. Again, Bella implies he was not a very enthusiastic member of the group and taunts him for it.

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My point was that, whatever information was coming to the general population, true or false, it was that Voldemort was so dangerous and cruel that people were too afraid to even speak his name. So even IF for some reason the Ministry decided to stem the truth, people were still terrified of Voldemort to the point of calling him You-Know-Who. Therefore Snape could not have been wildly misguided into thinking Voldemort was in any way harmless.
We're told that Tom Riddle had a persuasive way about him. I doubt that he lost that has his powers grew.If the right spin is put on just about anything people will buy it. He was able to tap into the inner needs of his followers and offer them something to make them feel good about themselves. We know Severus wasn't Imperiused, as some claimed they were. But, we also see a pretty miserable time for him at Hogwarts with only one friend, Lily. The only other "friends" he had were his Housemates. McGonagall told firsties that their House would be like their family. So, if his "family" members are telling him all of this good stuff that's going to happen if he joins up with Voldemort, and, possibly that the stories going around about him were exaggerated and that he wasn't that bad, Severus might have believed it. Smart people frequently fall for stupid come-ons. And, because they are smart they're less likely to admit to themselves that they were wrong in the first place.

Once again, I'm not trying to whitewash Severus. (He looks better in black, anyway.) He wasn't anywhere near perfect. But, he realized the error of his ways, even though it seemed to take the person he loved being in danger to give him the courage to act on that. He felt guilt and remorse for his part in carrying the Prophecy and being indirectly responsible for putting Lily in grave danger. He did all he could to protect her, and, it was through no fault of his that Voldemort got to her and James once they were in hiding. And, even after her death he loved her enough to agree to help protect her son. He spent 17 years of his life trying to right a terrible wrong. And, as I said in my previous post, I think he should get credit where credit is due, along with the bashing where it is appropriate.

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I think it was almost a given that Voldemort would want to eliminate any threat. Since the prophecy (taken at its most basic meaning) referred to a child yet to be born to parents who were opposed to Voldemort, I think Snape would have put two and two together and known that he was condemning an innocent life to death.
The Prophecy says that the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord "approaches." It could have been interpreted that it was a wizard who was about to come of age and come into his own powers at that time. I'm pretty sure, in all of the years that Voldemort was rising to power there were many people who defied him thrice. Slughorn was one. He turned down LV's recruiters repeatedly. There more than likely had to be others. The only thing that is really clear in the Prophecy is that it is a wizard and that his birthday is the end of July. Once Voldemort decided who his target was, he, himself marked him and gave him equal powers.


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  #1012  
Old May 19th, 2013, 9:57 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
But where is the redemption story if his actions are trivialised, made to look less wrong, blamed on others?
I don't believe his actions were less wrong or trivial, I even made a very grave comparison (that wasn't allowed; I'm sorry for having brought it up!) which can't be interpreted as anything else but all-around wrong. He was very much in the wrong in joining a genocidal organisation because he was smart enough to know what it entailed. That does make his prolonged attempt to make amends all the more meaningful, in my opinion.

In my view, the beauty of Snape's character is that he can't bee seen as purely evil or purely good, even though more often than not, in a children's story these are the two forces pulling in two opposite directions. My idea of his character is - he started out abused, unloved and confused, he'd eagerly swallowed the pureblood pride nonsense I'm guessing his magical relatives fed into him as a boy because he'd only seen abuse from his Muggle father, then found a friend and there was a glimpse of hope for him, but then the war came and he made the wrong choice; then it all hit him home, personally, and it served as a wake-up call for him to see exactly what he was doing to other people by being a part of the murderous machine of the Death Eaters. After failing to save the only person he cared about, he starts a painful arc of forever trying to make amends for it, even though he knew he never could. I think it's a masterful character and story and easily one of the best things about the Harry Potter stories, in my humble opinion. The fact that he can't be safely claimed for the good or the evil side is what makes him so fascinating, to me.



Last edited by Yoana; May 19th, 2013 at 10:04 am.
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  #1013  
Old May 19th, 2013, 10:51 am
MsJPotter  Undisclosed.gif MsJPotter is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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=mirrormere;6071477]One thing I’ve not quite understood is the double standard that exists for Snape.
It is puzzling to say the least. I've never understood the pretzels some people twist out of canon.

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Snape is considered unilaterally spiteful when he calls Petunia a Muggle when he is only responding, in kind, to her condescension and sarcasm about his claim of being a wizard and her dissing the part of town where he lives. She also, later, calls him a liar and tries to embarrass him about his clothing.

Petunia calls Lily and Severus “freak” and “weirdo.” The meaning behind these names are the same as “Mudblood” would be to a Muggleborn. If she had had more specific derogatory terms to use, she would have done so. That Snape only responds by not calling her a muggle is mild in comparison.
Yep, Petunia was pretty spiteful there, I've never read anyone defending it myself. And while she was pretty spiteful she didn't call Snape a bad, bad racial slur. Well she probably didn't know any, 'Freak' and Weirdo' are as bad as she gets. It's pretty bad but not as bad as throwing out a racial insult that has not other meaning beyond being a racial insult.

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When Snape causes the branch to fall on her, he is labeled vicious and the act intentional. But when Harry blows up his Aunt Marge – a much more serious action and one which could have killed her – it’s considered justified and unintentional.

I just don’t get it.
Well Aunt Marge is an responsible adult who is belittling a child's dead parents to his face. And while blowing her up wasn't a great thing to do, she wasn't injured. Dropping a heavy tree branch on a little girl could have caused serious injury and the Evans did not know where St Mungo's was located. One was a magic spell that could and was corrected by people who knew what they were doing, and the other was a physical injury to a regular human child that had the potential to cause serious hurt that could not be dealt with by the MOM. I hope that helped.



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That does seem quite likely, especially if he was bullied by muggles – which apparently his muggle father had a hand in cementing, if not forming, such a viewpoint. To have a parent so abusive and/or neglectful has a powerful effect on a child and one it will take a long time to overcome.
But we see first hand Snape's reaction to attempts to people bullying him. I don't think he was exactly an easy target for bullies. Causing tree branches to drop on thier heads will usually get rid of any bullies. It will also get rid of any potential friends, but that;s the price the young Snape was willing to pay it seems. And we don't know if Snape's father did treat him badly. All we know is that Snape's dad didn't like anything much...and that there covers a wide range of things that are not magic. And his parents argued. Not nice but not really an excuse for becoming a terrorist either IMO.

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With his sorting into and acceptance by Slytherin house and his apparent bullying by “blood traitors,” I can definitely see that happening.
Well as Snape was more than capable of retaliating and the bullying never stopped him from following them around I don't know if we can say that that is a reason for becoming a terrorist either. The boy who's head that James and Sirius blew up didn't become a DeathEater did he? Sirius grew up in a Dark Magic loving household and he didn't become a DeathEater did he? NBope, I think Snape made his choice and he seems to have been quite happy, until he went to far in his role as soldier and entered into a conspiracy to murder Lily's son.


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But if Snape joined the DE’s to seek power and was a follower of LV’s, then he would have accepted LV’s premise that the Dark Arts constituted the most powerful magic and only Dark wizards practiced that kind of magic. It would not even have occurred to him that a wizard from the other side was capable of vanquishing LV. And if the DE’s found it inexplicable that a baby could defeat Voldemort, then why couldn’t Snape come to a similar conclusion prior to relaying the prophecy to Voldemort?
Sure he could have, how is this a good thing? It's just the same thing I posted above. Snape was quite comfortable and he believed in what Voldemort and the DeathEaters were doing. Terrorist activities and murder. Plotting in the murder of a baby and that baby's family. This is not great behaviour, it usually ends with the person engaging in it either dead or in prison.

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Did Pettigrew know of the prophecy? I don't recall that he did.
Immaterial, all he had to know was the Voldemort wanted to know how to find them.


Quote:
We have no canon as to what DD thought of the prophecy before the Potter’s were murdered. We only ever have his commentary on the subject after Harry is chosen by LV. DD has the entire prophecy so why does he not try to protect potential victims until after Snape asks him to protect Lily? Because he doesn’t know how LV will interpret that prophecy and so does not know who to protect. If DD can’t figure it out, why is Snape accused of being able to?
Immateterial, Snape didn't know what Dumbledore thought about the prophecy because he didn't hang around after he heard what he heard. He went to Voldemort with his information.


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True, but we saw in Harry’s case how the truth can be twisted by the Ministry and the press when they tried to make him out as a liar. Now it’s not possible there was some kind of PR spin by LV’s followers that left some facts in question? We don’t know for certain, but if it happened once, surely it could have happened previously?
Again that's beside the point. Snape wasn't consulting MOM propaganda when he told Voldemort about the prophecy.



Quote:
There’s no evidence that Snape “plotted” a baby murder. Giving an ambiguous prophecy to Voldemort does not constitute a “plot.” It was known that not all prophecies necessarily came to pass. Nor could Snape have precisely predicted how LV would react to the prophecy. It’s often difficult to predict the behavior of a megalomaniac.
If Snape was not plotting in the murder of someone who had just been born as the seventh month died when he told Voldemort about the prophecy, what was he doing? He was a Deatheater, the clue is in the name.


Quote:
Yes we do:
HBP: Silver and OpalsHarry had already attempted a few of the Prince’s self-invented spells. There had been a hex that caused toenails to grow alarmingly fast (he had tried this on Crabbe in the corridor, with very entertaining results); a jinx that glued the tongue to the roof of the mouth (which he had twice used, to general applause, on an unsuspecting Argus Filch); and, perhaps most useful of all, Muffliato, a spell that filled the ears of anyone nearby with an unidentifiable buzzing, so that lengthy conversations could be held in class without being overheard. The only person who did not find these charms amusing was Hermione, who maintained a rigidly disapproving expression throughout and refused to talk at all if Harry had used the Muffliato spell on anyone in the vicinity.
HBP: Silver and Opals

Yup, and they were all in Snape handwriting in the Potions book, they were never mentioned as being in any other book and Snape claimed ownership. Kinda hard to say he didn't when it's right there in canon.

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Sitting up in bed, Harry turned the book sideways so as to examine more closely the scribbled instructions for a spell that seemed to have caused the Prince some trouble. There were many crossings-out and alterations, but finally, crammed into a corner of the page, the scribble:

Levicorpus (nvbl)
Sure sounds like a work in progress to me.



Quote:
Remus seems a little clueless about things from time to time. The spell probably became so ubiquitous so quickly that the name of the original author was lost.

Although some believe Levicorpus was a nasty little spell, we only see it used by James Potter, his son, Harry and it actually saved the day when Hermione used it on Harry to retrieve the Hufflepuff cup from the Lestrange vault
Oh I think the Muggles at the World Cup and Charity Burbrage would have reason to disagree with that. Even Snape in SWM would have reason to think his spell was pretty nasty.

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
That's not how I intepret that quote. 'Only those I could not save' , suggests strongly to me that there were some that he did save.'Only those', infers to me that he saved some lives when he could do so, without giving away his double spy status.
He isn't speaking about saving anyone, he only says he doesn't like seeing them die anymore. And we don't know in canon anyone who's life he did save. The closest he came to saving anyone is his attempt to save Remus in the 7 Potters. And as what happened shows very clearly, hitting a moving target is hard and there was no guarantee that Remus was going to be hit in the first place. But he tried, he just nearly killed George, instead of hitting the Deatheater.



Last edited by MsJPotter; May 19th, 2013 at 11:02 am.
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  #1014  
Old May 19th, 2013, 1:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
One thing I’ve not quite understood is the double standard that exists for Snape.

Snape is considered unilaterally spiteful when he calls Petunia a Muggle when he is only responding, in kind, to her condescension and sarcasm about his claim of being a wizard and her dissing the part of town where he lives. She also, later, calls him a liar and tries to embarrass him about his clothing.

Petunia calls Lily and Severus “freak” and “weirdo.” The meaning behind these names are the same as “Mudblood” would be to a Muggleborn. If she had had more specific derogatory terms to use, she would have done so. That Snape only responds by not calling her a muggle is mild in comparison.

When Snape causes the branch to fall on her, he is labeled vicious and the act intentional. But when Harry blows up his Aunt Marge – a much more serious action and one which could have killed her – it’s considered justified and unintentional.

I just don’t get it.
Whoa there. I do not have a double standard, and I am not even sure what the heck you are referencing from posts here to even make that claim.

However, I'm absolutely not of the belief that there is only a small finite pool of bigotry in the Harry potter universe, and because Snape has it all Petunia can't have any.

I am also not of the opinion that if Snape and Petunia both exhibit bigotry, they have to be splitting this finite bigotry pool and are therefore really exhibiting less bigotry then they are. To me, it just doesn't work that way; it is perfectly possible for a character to be responsible for their own behavior. That Severus and Petunia were nasty to each other doesn't erase Severus's displayed disdain for Muggles. He might dislike her as an individual, but he attacks the group he feels she belongs to.

Quote:
That does seem quite likely, especially if he was bullied by muggles – which apparently his muggle father had a hand in cementing, if not forming, such a viewpoint. To have a parent so abusive and/or neglectful has a powerful effect on a child and one it will take a long time to overcome.
Wish we knew more about Snape's home life. It seems to have been very unhappy, but a lot of blanks seem to be filled in by supposition. It is quite possible too that Severus learned bigotry from his mother as well as his father. Hard to know, exactly.

Quote:
With his sorting into and acceptance by Slytherin house and his apparent bullying by “blood traitors,” I can definitely see that happening.
Was being bullied by "blood traitors" causing his growing bigotries? It seems that by fifth year he was clearly unpopular within his class at school, and he was calling Muggleborns "Mudblood", but its hard to see a causal relationship because if "blood traitors" were targeting him than the the reasons they were targeting him would need to come first, not second. With a lack of evidence in the books about any bullying prior to fifth year against Severus, I just can't see bullying by blood traitors--or anyone, really-- as being the cause of Severus's bigotry. He seems to come to school with a disdain for Muggles, and I think his desire for power and its promise from the Death Eater junior gang is what led to Severus pursuing that course.

Quote:
But if Snape joined the DE’s to seek power and was a follower of LV’s, then he would have accepted LV’s premise that the Dark Arts constituted the most powerful magic and only Dark wizards practiced that kind of magic. It would not even have occurred to him that a wizard from the other side was capable of vanquishing LV. And if the DE’s found it inexplicable that a baby could defeat Voldemort, then why couldn’t Snape come to a similar conclusion prior to relaying the prophecy to Voldemort?
I agree with you about Snape's belief in the power of the Dark Arts. Dumbledore, though, had defeated Grindelwald, and Dumbledore was the only one that Voldemort ever feared. Dumbledore was a very powerful wizard, and I think the Death Eaters had some respect for his power even if they did not respect him. I think there was a recognition that a powerful wizard could still be a threat to Voldemort, it is just that there were not that many wizards out there of that power level. I don't know what opinion Severus formed of the baby after he heard the half-Prophecy. Dumbledore noted that Snape did not know "which" family would be the object of Voldemort's murderous quest when he gave the half-Prophecy to Voldemort, so I am of the opinion that at that time Snape did not care what the baby was like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
That's not how I intepret that quote. 'Only those I could not save' , suggests strongly to me that there were some that he did save.'Only those', infers to me that he saved some lives when he could do so, without giving away his double spy status.
I agree with your general interpretation. I think the word "lately" is also highly significant to the character of Severus Snape, but i think that at the point Snape says this to Dumbledore it is a true statement. Since this is a work of fiction, I figure things that I need to know that are important about the story will be in there somewhere, and sometimes they will come from the mouths of the characters themselves. I just figure that if it is something which isn't true, it will be shown in the story to be untrue. It is a nice simple method that works well for me, anyway.

So I think Snape changed from someone who would watch people die even when he had the ability to save them, to someone who would not watch someone die when he could do something about it. I don't know that he ever actually did save lives, but I do think he became someone who would if he could. I feel that his attempt to help Lupin during the Seven potters was meant to demonstrate that, since he was trying to save someone even though he did not personally gain from it. I give Snape points for trying.


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Last edited by OldMotherCrow; May 19th, 2013 at 1:54 pm. Reason: punctuation and typos-- too many, gave up, so sad, need coffee.
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  #1015  
Old May 19th, 2013, 2:51 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

OK. Several of you are skirting very close to the line here, so I would remind you not to make negative insinuations about other posters, whether it's that they have double standards, can't read the book "correctly", don't have the same standard of morality as you, aren't compassionate, support racism and terrorism etc. This is a zero-tolerance zone where you can be forum-banned without warning.

If you feel that negative insinuations have been made about you/a group of posters, DO NOT respond to them onthread - report the post.

It's fine to disagree with someone's opinion. It is NOT fine to imply that there must be something wrong with them to think that way or insist that they have to agree with you in order to be a decent/logical person.

And shades of grey, people, OK?


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Old May 19th, 2013, 2:51 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

This information from Pottermore still floors me and I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

From Pottermore, PoA, Chapter 8:

Spoiler: show
Some magical portraits are capable of considerably more interaction with the living world. Traditionally, a headmaster or headmistress is painted before their death. Once the portrait is completed, the headmaster or headmistress in question keeps it under lock and key, regularly visiting it in its cupboard (if so desired) to teach it to act and behave exactly like themselves, and imparting all kinds of useful memories and pieces of knowledge that may then be shared through the centuries with their successors in office.


Ok, if I remember correctly, JKR says Snape didn't have a portrait because he left office, but then she later says Harry would have made sure it was there.

So....Snape poses for a portrait, locks it in a cupboard (Harry was locked in a cupboard as well, at one point, but i digress), and teaches it to act like himself? And imparts knowledge?

Based on what we know about Snape, would he do this? Would he have the time? And if he did, what kind of knowledge would he impart?

I wonder if his portrait could write a new and better Potions textbook? If someone else copied what he said? I think this would be a perfect fit for him, and he'd already have the knowledge. I suspect he already had improved the textbook, which is why he often wrote instructions on the black board. They'd just need to go in book form.


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  #1017  
Old May 19th, 2013, 3:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
This information from Pottermore still floors me and I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

From Pottermore, PoA, Chapter 8:

Spoiler: show
Some magical portraits are capable of considerably more interaction with the living world. Traditionally, a headmaster or headmistress is painted before their death. Once the portrait is completed, the headmaster or headmistress in question keeps it under lock and key, regularly visiting it in its cupboard (if so desired) to teach it to act and behave exactly like themselves, and imparting all kinds of useful memories and pieces of knowledge that may then be shared through the centuries with their successors in office.


Ok, if I remember correctly, JKR says Snape didn't have a portrait because he left office, but then she later says Harry would have made sure it was there.

So....Snape poses for a portrait, locks it in a cupboard (Harry was locked in a cupboard as well, at one point, but i digress), and teaches it to act like himself? And imparts knowledge?

Based on what we know about Snape, would he do this? Would he have the time? And if he did, what kind of knowledge would he impart?

I wonder if his portrait could write a new and better Potions textbook? If someone else copied what he said? I think this would be a perfect fit for him, and he'd already have the knowledge. I suspect he already had improved the textbook, which is why he often wrote instructions on the black board. They'd just need to go in book form.
We don't know if Snape posed for a portrait at all. The MOM was overthrown by Voldemort's minions, and Snape sure wasn't the Headmaster at the end of HBP, McGonagall was. Perhaps the magical portrait of Snape was never done because the artist didn't recognise Voldemort's Ministry as being a legal body. And Snape did leave the school, abandoned it to the attack of the Deatheaters. Now I know he was following Dumbledore's orders but nobody knew that. So we have several circumstances that would explain why there was no portrait. And I think it was darn decent of Harry to get one put up, even if it wasn't a proper magical one. Would Snape really have qualified as a legally instated Headmaster wnen the entire MOM was illegal in the first place?


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Old May 19th, 2013, 3:30 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Ok, if I remember correctly, JKR says Snape didn't have a portrait because he left office, but then she later says Harry would have made sure it was there.

So....Snape poses for a portrait, locks it in a cupboard (Harry was locked in a cupboard as well, at one point, but i digress), and teaches it to act like himself? And imparts knowledge?

Based on what we know about Snape, would he do this? Would he have the time? And if he did, what kind of knowledge would he impart?
This is where the out-of-book info stops making sense to me, because JKR said earlier that there wasn't a portrait before Harry intervened-- which would make portraiture as Pottermore describes it impossible for Snape (him being dead by then and unable to sit for it or teach it).

It may be reconcilable if portraits can be made from photos or other reproductions. Those who knew Snape could teach the portrait how to behave as well. But the way he walks, sound of his voice, and other subtle or unique mannerisms might be lost.

As for whether or not he'd sit for it and teach it...well, I think if it was part of the process of becoming headmaster, he'd endure it. He'd promised DD to protect the students, and being in charge of the school would be the best way to do that.


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  #1019  
Old May 19th, 2013, 3:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Chocolate card portraits seem to be made from wizards who did not sit for those portraits, as many of them are long dead. So, I'd say a portrait could be made, it would just be a representation of what the artist thought of Snape, and probably act accordingly in a very limited fashion.


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Old May 19th, 2013, 3:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
This is where the out-of-book info stops making sense to me, because JKR said earlier that there wasn't a portrait before Harry intervened-- which would make portraiture as Pottermore describes it impossible for Snape (him being dead by then and unable to sit for it or teach it).
Ok, I'm confused.

I thought JKR said there wasn't a portrait hanging there because he'd deserted his post, not because one was never created. He didn't desert his post until the very end of the year, so during that year as a Headmaster he still could have had one made and instructed it. Or am I misunderstanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Chocolate card portraits seem to be made from wizards who did not sit for those portraits, as many of them are long dead. So, I'd say a portrait could be made, it would just be a representation of what the artist thought of Snape, and probably act accordingly in a very limited fashion.
Or something similar to Sir Cadogan or the "charming" portrait like Sirius' mother's at Grimmauld Place? Perhaps.


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