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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6



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  #701  
Old August 9th, 2012, 12:43 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
He introduced her to the magical world earlier than she would have been introduced, yes. However, with or without Snape, Lily would have been invited to attend Hogwarts. With or without Snape, Lily was a witch.
True, but your first *something* is often very special. First magical friend (and maybe even first friend, as well as first and only love, in Severus' case), first person to tell you you're a witch and make it sound like a positive thing and that you're not going crazy (for Lily, after she found out Severus didn't mean it as an insult)......


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  #702  
Old August 9th, 2012, 3:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
I actually find Snape's statement in that chapter to be quite telling. I do not believe he is acknowledging her power so much as he is acknowledging the fact that, in the end, blood purity is not a factor in how successful a wizard or witch really is. Snape himself is a half-blood, and judging by his prowess, I can't imagine him truly believing that being pure-blood is what makes the most potent witch or wizard. I interpreted this as a show of surprising honesty coming from Snape.
I was thinking of this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by "The Prince's Tale", DH
"Does it make a difference, being Muggleborn?"

Snape hesitated. His black eyes, eager in the greenish gloom, moved over the pale face, the dark red hair.

"No," he said. "It doesn't make any difference."

"Good," said Lily, relaxing. It was clear that she had been worrying.

You've got loads of magic," said Snape. "I saw that. All the time I was watching you..."
It is here that I think Child Severus equates value with magical power. This I think goes hand-in-hand with his opinion on Muggles. I think this was what he was hoping for when he entered the Wizarding World, that the merit of each individual would be measured by how magically powerful they were: Since Lily had loads of magic, she would be okay; Muggleborn, Half-Blood or whatever wouldn't matter if one had loads of magic. Or so he thought. I think once he entered the magical world and saw that this is not how it universally operated, he adjusted to find the groups within the Wizarding World that most closely matched his outlook, and his outlook evolved to encompass their particular bigotries.


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  #703  
Old August 9th, 2012, 3:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I was thinking of this part:


It is here that I think Child Severus equates value with magical power. This I think goes hand-in-hand with his opinion on Muggles. I think this was what he was hoping for when he entered the Wizarding World, that the merit of each individual would be measured by how magically powerful they were: Since Lily had loads of magic, she would be okay; Muggleborn, Half-Blood or whatever wouldn't matter if one had loads of magic. Or so he thought. I think once he entered the magical world and saw that this is not how it universally operated, he adjusted to find the groups within the Wizarding World that most closely matched his outlook, and his outlook evolved to encompass their particular bigotries.
I see. I think that Snape was more than aware of how the system ran in the Wizarding World. His mother is a pure-blood. As such, I can't see him as staying ignorant of what the upper echelon of the magical realm deemed "powerful", this being the reason he hesitated when telling Lily that it doesn't matter. It does matter, where high class wizarding society is concerned, but in terms of magical aptitude, it does not. And in my opinion, this is why he goes on to say that she has much power, and thus much potential. The statement itself displays Lily's uncertainty about her ability to fit into the magical world, and Snape's next quote could be interpreted as a sort of encouragement. His statement is an honest one, in my eyes.

As for his overall outlook, I don't think he possessed any such bigotries, besides any stereotypes that may have formed as a result of his arguable dislike of his father. He simply molded himself to fit in with the crew who was destined to join a Dark Lord, one who Severus could look up to as a mentor in the Dark Arts, and, perhaps, as a powerful father figure.


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  #704  
Old August 9th, 2012, 4:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I can't find the Lily/Snape thread.
We don't have one. The number of Snape threads is still limited as stated here: Snape Threads: Post DH


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  #705  
Old September 10th, 2012, 7:44 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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As for his overall outlook, I don't think he possessed any such bigotries, besides any stereotypes that may have formed as a result of his arguable dislike of his father. He simply molded himself to fit in with the crew who was destined to join a Dark Lord, one who Severus could look up to as a mentor in the Dark Arts, and, perhaps, as a powerful father figure.
Very insightful, JohanT. I hadn't thought of it before, that Snape was looking for a mentor or a "father figure" (though the thought of Voldie as anyone's father is a strange one, to say the least.) But yes, Snape was more of a follower than a leader.

Concerning his bigotries, I think the way his Slytherin friends thought did influence him quite a bit. But even before that he looked down on non-magical people (his father, Petunia). And when he was hurt and humiliated and struck back, the first insult, and the worst in his mind, to throw out was "Mudblood". It's not "a fluff head like her" or a "teacher's pet like her" or "a dirty Gryffindor like her" or anything else he may have thrown at Lily. The first thing that came to his mind and his lips was "mudblood". It's, IMO, very telling.



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  #706  
Old September 10th, 2012, 10:15 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Very insightful, JohanT. I hadn't thought of it before, that Snape was looking for a mentor or a "father figure" (though the thought of Voldie as anyone's father is a strange one, to say the least.) But yes, Snape was more of a follower than a leader.

Concerning his bigotries, I think the way his Slytherin friends thought did influence him quite a bit. But even before that he looked down on non-magical people (his father, Petunia). And when he was hurt and humiliated and struck back, the first insult, and the worst in his mind, to throw out was "Mudblood". It's not "a fluff head like her" or a "teacher's pet like her" or "a dirty Gryffindor like her" or anything else he may have thrown at Lily. The first thing that came to his mind and his lips was "mudblood". It's, IMO, very telling.
It's also kind of strange that if he was looking for a 'mentor' that he ended up with someone like Voldie. His father wasn't the nicest man and he ends up with what could arguably be seen as the WW's equivilent of his father, only 10 times worse


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  #707  
Old September 10th, 2012, 1:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Was his dad a racist? I thought he was just plain abusive, but he wasn't hateful towards wizards or anything (he married one, didn't he?).


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  #708  
Old September 10th, 2012, 1:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

There is no evidence anywhere in the text that Snape's father was a racist.

All we know about him is this:

1) He shouted at his wife, which made young Severus cower in a corner ('Snape's Worst Memory', OotP);

2) Young Severus admits to young Lily, shredding leaves with his fingers as he does so, that his father "doesn't like anything much."

These two sentences in two separate books tell us quite a lot about what Rowling requires us to know: namely, that Tobias Snape was not exactly a loving husband and father. We don't know from this whether he was physically abusive to his wife or son, but we know enough to realise that young Sev's home life was hardly a happy one.

I don't see anywhere that Snape was looking for a mentor, either as a young man or an older one.


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  #709  
Old September 10th, 2012, 2:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Maybe he was just looking for a place/position/relationship where he would feel powerful. Even if Tobias wasn't abusive, Snape was clearly scared of him. It would have made him feel powerless, which would've fueled his desire to study the dark arts and be part of strong groups/be attached to strong people.


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  #710  
Old September 10th, 2012, 3:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
Maybe he was just looking for a place/position/relationship where he would feel powerful. Even if Tobias wasn't abusive, Snape was clearly scared of him. It would have made him feel powerless, which would've fueled his desire to study the dark arts and be part of strong groups/be attached to strong people.
I think this is what he was looking for. He'd had years of feeling powerless - home and Hogwarts - and was looking for a place where he could finally be respected and have a place. I don't see it as looking for a parental figure in Voldemort.

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
We kind of see a sign of insecurity in the memory where she is asking young Snape about the Dementors coming for her if she uses magic outside of school. It makes you wonder what slant young Snape put on the things he was telling her about the Magic world. Why did he mention Dementors in the first place? This could be a way of Rowling telling us that Lily's insecurities were fed by young Severus. That he just might have been fostering these insecurities to keep her dependant on him. Probably doing it unconsciously.
I suspect if this were the case, we would have seen Seveus tell Lily that having nonmagical parents DID matter, rather than trying to reassure her and tell her it did not. He also would not have reassured her that she could not be sent to Azkaban for underaged magic, but would have hinted that she possible could unless she stuck with him, I think.


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  #711  
Old September 10th, 2012, 5:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Was his dad a racist? I thought he was just plain abusive, but he wasn't hateful towards wizards or anything (he married one, didn't he?).
It's eluded to in the information on Pottermore that telling your muggle spouse that you were magical was a much more difficult thing than we might think. McGonagall's mother was scared to tell her husband that she was a witch;

Pottermore, McGonagall's Backstorysobel was torn between pride and fear. She knew that she must confess the truth [that their daughter, Minerva, was showing signs of being magical] to Robert before he witnessed something that would alarm him. At last, in response to Robert’s patient questioning, Isobel burst into tears, retrieved her wand from the locked box under her bed and showed him what she was.

Although Minerva was too young to remember that night, its aftermath left her with a bitter understanding of the complications of growing up with magic in a Muggle world. Although Robert McGonagall loved his wife no less upon discovering that she was a witch, he was profoundly shocked by her revelation, and by the fact that she had kept such a secret from him for so long. What was more, he, who prided himself on being an upright and honest man, was now drawn into a life of secrecy that was quite foreign to his nature. Isobel explained, through her sobs, that she (and their daughter) were bound by the International Statute of Secrecy, and that they must conceal the truth about themselves, or face the fury of the Ministry of Magic. Robert also quailed at the thought of how the locals - in the main, an austere, straight-laced and conventional breed - would feel about having a witch as their Minister’s wife.


Isobel McGonagall, at first, was just scared to tell Robert she was a witch lest he leave her, then she couldn't tell him because he was believing her lies too well and for too long and it would impact his life too negatively to tell him the truth, then when their daughter was born everything just spilled out because she could no long keep things secret.

Minerva's own experience with the Muggle boy named Dougal was similar. She would either have to marry him and lock away her wand and give up all her ambitions only to spend her life lying to the man she loved about who and what she was, or she would have to break the international statute of secrecy, confess that she was a witch and risk him leaving her because of that and whatever reprecussions the minstry brought down upon her for breaking the statute.

I think it was a similar situation with Snape's mother. Tobias Snape probably didn't know that his wife was a witch; she couldn't tell him. She fell in love with a man who, as stated, didn't seem to like much of anything so hearing that his wife was a witch would have been probably grounds for divorce for him. If she kept her mouth shut, though, things might proceed somewhat calmly, if not happily. When Severus was born she probably kept him somewhat hidden away so that she could absorb any punishment for any magic that come out of him - if he unknowingly broke something she could take the blame, she could say she dropped the plate that broke or she threw the toy across the room or whatever. She might have suffered some of her abuse simply because she was trying to protect her son.

The Snape household was probably a very difficult one to live in seeing as how two of the family members had to lie to the third and the third had to be kept in the dark about his own family.


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  #712  
Old September 10th, 2012, 5:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Huh, the idea that Snape's dad never even knew his wife and son were wizards never occurred to me.


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  #713  
Old September 11th, 2012, 3:52 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Huh, the idea that Snape's dad never even knew his wife and son were wizards never occurred to me.
It never occurred to me either. Do you think it's possible?

It's true that they were living in a Muggle neighborhood - and maybe neither Eileen nor Severus ever did any magic at home?

To me that's a new and intriguing idea.


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  #714  
Old September 11th, 2012, 1:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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It never occurred to me either. Do you think it's possible?

It's true that they were living in a Muggle neighborhood - and maybe neither Eileen nor Severus ever did any magic at home?

To me that's a new and intriguing idea.
It doesn't ring true for me. There's no way you could hide something like that under the same roof. And after pondering it for a day I don't think Snape was looking for a mentor in Voldemort either. I think he was looking for a way to be powerful and be part of a 'community' where his love of the Dark Arts and skill in developing spells that used them was appreciated. He enlisted with the kind of people he felt comfortable with IMO.


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Old September 11th, 2012, 4:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
Huh, the idea that Snape's dad never even knew his wife and son were wizards never occurred to me.
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Originally Posted by StarsAndShadows View Post
It never occurred to me either. Do you think it's possible?

It's true that they were living in a Muggle neighborhood - and maybe neither Eileen nor Severus ever did any magic at home?

To me that's a new and intriguing idea.
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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
It doesn't ring true for me. There's no way you could hide something like that under the same roof.
While I don't know how likely it is I do think that it's a possibility. We're never told what happened to McGonagall's mother, Isobel, after she told her muggle husband that she and her daughter were witches but we do know that she was breaking the International Statute of Secrecy when she told him. We also know, according to McGonagall's own love story with Dougal, that for a wizard or witch to marry a muggle meant that they would have to hide away their wands and never perform magic again, one of the reasons McGonagall decides to refuse Dougal's marriage proposal.

Also, as I described in my previous post, I think that it is a possibility that Eileen Prince/Snape would have tried to cover up or hide any of the magic that Severus performed as a baby. Afterall, we don't know if he showed signs of magic from birth, as McGonagall did, or whether his talents in magic developed as he grew into a toddler or young child, as Neville's did. It's possible that Snape began developing his magic at an age where he could understand that he had to hide his magic from his father and his consolation for keeping it a secret would be that he would one day be sent off to Hogwarts. Or his magic developed earlier and Eileen took the "blame" for Snape's unusual behavior and all the odd things that happened around him.

Quote:
And after pondering it for a day I don't think Snape was looking for a mentor in Voldemort either. I think he was looking for a way to be powerful and be part of a 'community' where his love of the Dark Arts and skill in developing spells that used them was appreciated. He enlisted with the kind of people he felt comfortable with IMO.
After we got Snape's backstory in DH I started to see Snape's desires in a very different way. I stopped seeing him as a boy who was looking for a 'community,' necessarily, and saw him more as a boy seeking power to protect himself. If Snape's father was abusive (verbally, physically or whatever) and Snape was under an embargo on performing magic at home in front of his father I could definitely see how those two things could manifest themselves as a kind of lust for power in a young child. Snape's interest in the dark arts could have stemmed from his desire to keep his father away from him (and his mother?) (through studying curses, hexes, etc. to repell his fahter) and his lust for power would have come from a desire to instill fear in his father like his father instilled fear in him, only he'd want more power over his father than his father had over him because for so long Severus would have felt powerless against him. Then, after studying the dark arts for a while, he might have discovered that the subject generally interested him and causing him to grow even more invested in studying the subject, especially when he begins subconsciously using studying of the dark arts as a way to escape his own dreary, powerless life; he reads books about these powerful men like Grindlewald who use this kind of magic to control or rule over others and to a young, abused boy that idea would be pretty seductive.

JMO, of course. I suppose that I just like the idea of Snape's interests in the dark arts beginning with fairly innocent or altrusistic motives but over time it becomes perverted into this quest for power and is used as a method by which the death eaters seduce him into their ranks... (Not to absolve Snape of any culpability in the situation; to me he is as much a victim of his circumstances as he is guilty of all his wrong doing)


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  #716  
Old September 11th, 2012, 10:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
I think this is what he was looking for. He'd had years of feeling powerless - home and Hogwarts - and was looking for a place where he could finally be respected and have a place. I don't see it as looking for a parental figure in Voldemort.
No I don't think so either. I think he was looking for approval for his love of the Dark Arts and people who would appreciate his skill in using them.


Quote:
I suspect if this were the case, we would have seen Seveus tell Lily that having nonmagical parents DID matter, rather than trying to reassure her and tell her it did not. He also would not have reassured her that she could not be sent to Azkaban for underaged magic, but would have hinted that she possible could unless she stuck with him, I think.
Oh I don't think young Severus was interested in telling Lily anything that might make her not like him, so of course he hesitated, and then told her what he thought she wanted to hear.


[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
While I don't know how likely it is I do think that it's a possibility. We're never told what happened to McGonagall's mother, Isobel, after she told her muggle husband that she and her daughter were witches but we do know that she was breaking the International Statute of Secrecy when she told him. We also know, according to McGonagall's own love story with Dougal, that for a wizard or witch to marry a muggle meant that they would have to hide away their wands and never perform magic again, one of the reasons McGonagall decides to refuse Dougal's marriage proposal.
I think it would be impossible to hide a magical infant from a parent. Snape's house was not exactly large.

Quote:
Also, as I described in my previous post, I think that it is a possibility that Eileen Prince/Snape would have tried to cover up or hide any of the magic that Severus performed as a baby. Afterall, we don't know if he showed signs of magic from birth, as McGonagall did, or whether his talents in magic developed as he grew into a toddler or young child, as Neville's did. It's possible that Snape began developing his magic at an age where he could understand that he had to hide his magic from his father and his consolation for keeping it a secret would be that he would one day be sent off to Hogwarts. Or his magic developed earlier and Eileen took the "blame" for Snape's unusual behavior and all the odd things that happened around him.
Well Tobias may not have been the sweetest bird around but there's no sign of him being unobservant. Actually there's no sign of him being much of anything. Maybe he liked having a magical wife but didn't care too much about his son. We just don't know enough IMO to venture an opinion in the first place.



Quote:
After we got Snape's backstory in DH I started to see Snape's desires in a very different way. I stopped seeing him as a boy who was looking for a 'community,' necessarily, and saw him more as a boy seeking power to protect himself. If Snape's father was abusive (verbally, physically or whatever) and Snape was under an embargo on performing magic at home in front of his father I could definitely see how those two things could manifest themselves as a kind of lust for power in a young child. Snape's interest in the dark arts could have stemmed from his desire to keep his father away from him (and his mother?) (through studying curses, hexes, etc. to repell his fahter) and his lust for power would have come from a desire to instill fear in his father like his father instilled fear in him, only he'd want more power over his father than his father had over him because for so long Severus would have felt powerless against him. Then, after studying the dark arts for a while, he might have discovered that the subject generally interested him and causing him to grow even more invested in studying the subject, especially when he begins subconsciously using studying of the dark arts as a way to escape his own dreary, powerless life; he reads books about these powerful men like Grindlewald who use this kind of magic to control or rule over others and to a young, abused boy that idea would be pretty seductive.
Apart from him being badly dressed and non too clean there is really no sign that Snape was abused. For all we know he picked out the clothes he was wearing and didn't like taking baths. It seems to be behaviour that he continued all his life. Tobias seems to be unlikable, there is no proof he was a chld abuser.

Quote:
JMO, of course. I suppose that I just like the idea of Snape's interests in the dark arts beginning with fairly innocent or altrusistic motives but over time it becomes perverted into this quest for power and is used as a method by which the death eaters seduce him into their ranks... (Not to absolve Snape of any culpability in the situation; to me he is as much a victim of his circumstances as he is guilty of all his wrong doing)
Oh I don't think the Death Eaters had to do much seducing.


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Old September 11th, 2012, 10:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
I think it would be impossible to hide a magical infant from a parent. Snape's house was not exactly large.
[...]
Well Tobias may not have been the sweetest bird around but there's no sign of him being unobservant. Actually there's no sign of him being much of anything. Maybe he liked having a magical wife but didn't care too much about his son. We just don't know enough IMO to venture an opinion in the first place.
IMO you just see what you want to see and dismiss the rest. Look at Vernon, dismissing the evidence of his own eyes, about a cat reading a map, and all the weird things that happened around Harry.

For all we know - and I we do know very little about Tobias Snape - he may have been like that. Did Eileen Prince ever tell him she was a witch? Look at McGonagall's mother, how difficult it is to tell a Muggle spouse about your being magical.

Quote:
Apart from him being badly dressed and non too clean there is really no sign that Snape was abused. For all we know he picked out the clothes he was wearing and didn't like taking baths. It seems to be behaviour that he continued all his life. Tobias seems to be unlikable, there is no proof he was a chld abuser.
Very true.

About clothes, though, it seems the Snape household didn't have much money - so the parents gave Severus anything that came their way that he could put on his back. Unlike the younger Weasley kids, he didn't have older siblings whose outgrown clothes he could have used.

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Oh I don't think the Death Eaters had to do much seducing.
Yes, I'll go with that.


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  #718  
Old September 13th, 2012, 8:20 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by StarsAndShadows View Post
IMO you just see what you want to see and dismiss the rest. Look at Vernon, dismissing the evidence of his own eyes, about a cat reading a map, and all the weird things that happened around Harry.

But we have no proof that Tobias was anything like Vernon. We don't know what he knew and didn't know. For one thing Lily asks Young Snape if his father doesn't like magic. Snape doesn't say anything about the level of his father's knowledge. I just think it's a waste of time to speculate on what Tobias did and didn't know. When the total amount of knowledge is zero then anything is possible, everything is up for grabs and that IMO just leads to people speculating the craziest things and putting them forward as theories. I much prefer sticking to canon and I don't mean that fan fictiony nonsense from the films. There is only one canon and that's between the covers of the books.

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For all we know - and I we do know very little about Tobias Snape - he may have been like that. Did Eileen Prince ever tell him she was a witch? Look at McGonagall's mother, how difficult it is to tell a Muggle spouse about your being magical
.

We also hear from Seamus about his mother and father. In his family it seems to have been the family joke. I think like everything else it would depend on the person involved.


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About clothes, though, it seems the Snape household didn't have much money - so the parents gave Severus anything that came their way that he could put on his back. Unlike the younger Weasley kids, he didn't have older siblings whose outgrown clothes he could have used.
We don't know about the income. Sometimes it can surprise you how much money comes into what seems to be the poorest. Sometimes not. What we have learnt from canon is that a lot of the WW has no idea of what Muggles wear, that home schooling of young Wizard children is common and that they use a different currency from the Muggle world and this leads us to the WW shops in Diagon Alley.


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  #719  
Old September 13th, 2012, 3:47 pm
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
We also hear from Seamus about his mother and father. In his family it seems to have been the family joke. I think like everything else it would depend on the person involved.
Something tells me the Snape family has a far less affable repore and not as fun a sense of humor as the Finnegans. (If Tobias Snape is said to not like much of anything I doubt he would like to be the butt of the family joke.)

I agree that speculating what Tobias Snape knew or didn't know isn't a very productive conversation but I do think that it's important to remember that because we don't know his level of knowledge about the magicalness of his wife and son there is a lot of wiggle room in terms of interpretation. He could have been fully aware of his son's magical capabilities and have been very resentful about it (akin to Petunia's attitude); he could have been completely ignorant of his son's magical capabilities and living under a cloud of lies without even knowing it (akin to McGonagall's father). Or somewhere in between. We'll just have to wait and see what Pottermore reveals as time goes on.

Snape's story is one of my most anticipated Pottermore entries; I can't wait until more comes out about his life. I love how complex he is.


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Old September 13th, 2012, 4:03 pm
ShadowSonic  Male.gif ShadowSonic is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

I admit, I do enjoy the complexity and paradoxical nature of a guy who could willingly put himself in danger for over a decade to put an end to an Evil Sorcerer and yet at the time also be incredibly petty towards people.


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