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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #81  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:28 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest
You're probably right. And this is very sad , because we're talking about people who were good friends, and Snape loved her very much. It's sad he did hurt precisely the person who meant so much to him.


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  #82  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
He lashes out at his best friend, the one helping him.
Unfortunatley, people do sometimes lash out at those who trying to help, even if they really don't mean to and they do need help, whether emotional or/and physical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest: Usually because you know that they will forgive you. He just misunderstood how much damage he did. Lily was not obliged to forgive or forget. I don't like what he did, but I can understand why he did it, the berk.
Yes, I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
And I will also say this because it applies to real life: It says a lot about someone when they use such a racial slur, regardless of what emotion they're in. And I think Lily knew that.
Oh, I fully understand why Lily cut ties with Snape, but that's the tragedy of his character. Of course, it's up to the discretion of each person how they deal with such a situation, like a sexist or classist slur which also has a long and dark history. Lily chose what she felt was best for her safety. But, each poster is going to have their own opinions about the situation, depending on their own perceptions and life experiences. Imo.

Snape's complete journey, including his friendship with Lily, the break up and all he tried to do in her memory is a poignant and wonderful tale of redemption. He fell only to stive and rise again. Imo.



Last edited by Annielogic; January 31st, 2010 at 9:59 pm.
  #83  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:32 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
Unfortunatley, people do sometimes lash out at those who trying to help, even if they really don't mean to and they do need help, whether emotional or/and physical.



Oh, I fully understand why Lily cut ties with Snape, but that's the tragedy of his character. Of course, it's up to the discretion of each person how they deal with such a situation, like a sexist or classist slur which also has a long and dark history. Lily chose what she felt was best for her safety. But, each poster is going to have their own opinions about the situation, depending on their own perceptions and life experiences. Imo.

Snape's complete journey, including his friendship with Lily, the break up and all he tried to do in her memory is a poignant and wonderful tale of redemption. He fell only to stive and rise again. Imo.
Oh my gosh, fever time again. I agree with you.


  #84  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I chose kind of too. I think that Snape was very distracted by events in his own home, influence of house (slytheran) and the desire to show Lily that he was in control in spite of his inner feelings of wanting to belong. He had very little experience in social behavior and relationships and I think he figured he would impress Lily and win her over. He certainly could not at that point follow the Griffindor crowd owing to the teasing and bullying. I wonder if he had been sorted into Griffindor if he would have gotten closer to Lily right off, and how would James and his cronies have treated him??


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  #85  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I know I feel like hitting him over the head with a broom when reading his conversations with Lily.
Would you seriously consider using your Nimbus 2000 for that purpose?!?

At least try an old CleanSweep!


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  #86  
Old January 31st, 2010, 9:27 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
Snape's complete journey, including his friendship with Lily, the break up and all he tried to do in her memory is a poignant and wonderful tale of redemption. He fell only to stive and rise again. Imo.
While sad, the breakup is just part of a story and character I enjoy. He wouldn't be the same great character he is if things had gone differently.

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  #87  
Old January 31st, 2010, 9:43 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I don't think it can be ignored that Severus believed that they had made an attempt on his life, just a few night previous to this conversation. So, when Lily is going on to Severus about Mulciber, he must have thought that what Mulciber and Avery did was nothing compared to what James and his friends had tried to do to him. This is why I don't think Severus was trying to deliberately divert the conversation, as far as he was concerned he had good reason to mention James.
I think this comparision that Sev has made is very important. Whether we agree with his belief that Sirius et al tried to arrange his death, I really don't think it (Sev's belief) is something we can ignore.

The reality is imo that by this point the friendnship between Sev & Lily was already in serious trouble. Neither was prepared to listen to the others concerns about the people they were associating with - and they both had good reason to be concerned as far as I can see. The irony is that while the relationship is in trouble, they both still care enough about eache other to try and help thier friend see how dangerous thier associates are but not to listen to thier friend. Personally I can't help wondering if part of this is becasue they are both thinking 'if they're not gong to listen to me, why should I listen to them?' I also wonder what would have happened if one of them had listend to the other - would that change have left the other one feeling more prepared to listen in return?? Of course that's completely hypothetical

I think its sad that thier concerns about each other become one of the things that seprates them even furthur I know alot of people want to find one person to blame for the friendship dying but I tend towards thinking that they both put nails in that particular coffin jmho.


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  #88  
Old January 31st, 2010, 9:56 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest: Usually because you know that they will forgive you. He just misunderstood how much damage he did. Lily was not obliged to forgive or forget. I don't like what he did, but I can understand why he did it, the berk.
This is how I feel about it as well.


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Old January 31st, 2010, 10:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I think this comparison that Sev has made is very important. Whether we agree with his belief that Sirius et al tried to arrange his death, I really don't think it (Sev's belief) is something we can ignore.

The reality is imo that by this point the friendnship between Sev & Lily was already in serious trouble. Neither was prepared to listen to the others concerns about the people they were associating with - and they both had good reason to be concerned as far as I can see. The irony is that while the relationship is in trouble, they both still care enough about eache other to try and help thier friend see how dangerous thier associates are but not to listen to thier friend. Personally I can't help wondering if part of this is becasue they are both thinking 'if they're not gong to listen to me, why should I listen to them?' I also wonder what would have happened if one of them had listend to the other - would that change have left the other one feeling more prepared to listen in return?? Of course that's completely hypothetical

I think its sad that thier concerns about each other become one of the things that seprates them even furthur I know alot of people want to find one person to blame for the friendship dying but I tend towards thinking that they both put nails in that particular coffin jmho.
I see what you are trying to say Kittling, but where that fails for me is that there is no evidence that Lily was friend's with James and Co, She is going to be puzzled when Snape starts going on about them when she is not interested in what the Marauders do. Snape defended Mulciber and Avery, Lily criticized James and called him an arrogant toe rag. There is a very different reaction right there. This leads me to believe that Snape knew very well what Lily was going on about but he deliberately steered the conversation away from what Lily was saying. I think Lily knew what he was dong and let it slide to keep the peace. Was she wrong to do this? Hindsight would probably tell her yes, but Snape IMO did not want to listen to her and if he kept dragging in people who were not involved with the conversation she might have felt like she was banging her head against a stone wall.

I've been thinking about Snape and his reaction to James saving him, The more I think about it I think that Snape would not let himself even consider that James had saved him just because it was the right thing to do. He hated James and let's face it James gave him reasons. I think that he just did not want to face the fact that James had saved his life and it was easier to blame James than thank him.


  #90  
Old February 1st, 2010, 12:08 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
Snape's complete journey, including his friendship with Lily, the break up and all he tried to do in her memory is a poignant and wonderful tale of redemption. He fell only to stive and rise again. Imo.
And I for one wouldn't want him any other way!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Would you seriously consider using your Nimbus 2000 for that purpose?!?

At least try an old CleanSweep!
Of course I'd use my Nimbus 2000! Because he's worth it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I think its sad that thier concerns about each other become one of the things that seprates them even furthur I know alot of people want to find one person to blame for the friendship dying but I tend towards thinking that they both put nails in that particular coffin jmho.
I'm off to get my broom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I see what you are trying to say Kittling, but where that fails for me is that there is no evidence that Lily was friend's with James and Co, She is going to be puzzled when Snape starts going on about them when she is not interested in what the Marauders do. Snape defended Mulciber and Avery, Lily criticized James and called him an arrogant toe rag. There is a very different reaction right there. This leads me to believe that Snape knew very well what Lily was going on about but he deliberately steered the conversation away from what Lily was saying.

I don't see why Lily not being friends with James and co, is a reason to think Severus deliberately changed the subject of his conversation with Lily.

'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.(Snape, DH, The Prince's Tale)

This doesn't sound to me like the description of someone who is deliberately changing the subject of the conversation. It sounds more to me of someone who is reacting instinctively and emotionally.

At the beginning of the conversation Severus seems to be insecure in their relationship.
'...thought we were supposed to be friends?'

He is also very aware that James Potter,the Quiddditch hero, rich boy, not bad looking, is attracted to Lily. As I see it, being insecure he is worried that she will she be interested in James and so he desperately attempts to try and put Lily off James.

'I'm just trying to show you, they're not as wonderful as everyone thinks they are.'

Of course Lily is confused as she doesn't have a clue why Severus would bring James into their conversation. Why should she? Eventually we find out exactly why.

'I just don't want you made a fool of - he fancies you, James Potter fancies you!' The words seemed wrenched from him against his will.

This I think the main reason Severus brings James into the conversation. Because of his own insecurities and fears, all of which Lily is unaware of.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; February 1st, 2010 at 12:10 am.
  #91  
Old February 1st, 2010, 3:08 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest: Usually because you know that they will forgive you. He just misunderstood how much damage he did. Lily was not obliged to forgive or forget. I don't like what he did, but I can understand why he did it, the berk.
I do not deny that there were reasons behind it. And yes, I do understand it is easier to take your anger out on the people close to you. (We saw Harry do this through out Year 5.) But if Snape was going to take it out on Lily, he could have said so many other things directed at her. But he referred to her as a filthy mudblood. As I said before, it says a lot about a person when they use a racial slur. And I mention this because given how serious racism is in the books and how its executed, this is not something to take lightly regardless of the reason or what kind of person said it. Yet I have seen reasons explaining that this is something Lily should have forgiven, and she is criticized for not doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.(Snape, DH, The Prince's Tale)

This doesn't sound to me like the description of someone who is deliberately changing the subject of the conversation. It sounds more to me of someone who is reacting instinctively and emotionally.
But we also have to take note that Snape says this interrupting Lily when she talks about what Mulciber did to Mary McDonald. My take on the text is that regardless of whether Snape intended to interrupt her or was reacting instinctively, he still interrupts her and not listens anymore to what Lily has to say about Mulciber. This is also a very common tactic that people will use in an argument when not wanting to talk about something that may prove them to be in the wrong, and turning the conversation on the other person. As Lily asks after, "What's Potter got to do with anything?" And that's just it. James has nothing to do with what they were originally talking about.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; February 1st, 2010 at 3:42 am.
  #92  
Old February 1st, 2010, 4:35 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
The reality is imo that by this point the friendship between Sev & Lily was already in serious trouble. Neither was prepared to listen to the others concerns about the people they were associating with - and they both had good reason to be concerned as far as I can see. The irony is that while the relationship is in trouble, they both still care enough about eache other to try and help their friend see how dangerous their associates are but not to listen to their friend. Personally I can't help wondering if part of this is because they are both thinking 'if they're not going to listen to me, why should I listen to them?' I also wonder what would have happened if one of them had listend to the other - would that change have left the other one feeling more prepared to listen in return?? Of course that's completely hypothetical

I think its sad that thier concerns about each other become one of the things that seprates them even furthur I know alot of people want to find one person to blame for the friendship dying but I tend towards thinking that they both put nails in that particular coffin jmho.
Well-said, kittling. They are each getting frustrated with the other one. I really believe they each mean well and want the best for each other (each warning the other about dangerous friends) but the communication between them is garbled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TT
'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.(Snape, DH, The Prince's Tale)

This doesn't sound to me like the description of someone who is deliberately changing the subject of the conversation. It sounds more to me of someone who is reacting instinctively and emotionally.

At the beginning of the conversation Severus seems to be insecure in their relationship.
'...thought we were supposed to be friends?'

He is also very aware that James Potter,the Quiddditch hero, rich boy, not bad looking, is attracted to Lily. As I see it, being insecure he is worried that she will she be interested in James and so he desperately attempts to try and put Lily off James.

'I'm just trying to show you, they're not as wonderful as everyone thinks they are.'


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  #93  
Old February 1st, 2010, 5:06 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest: Usually because you know that they will forgive you. He just misunderstood how much damage he did. Lily was not obliged to forgive or forget. I don't like what he did, but I can understand why he did it, the berk.
I'm really shocked and surprised by the notion that the fact that Snape referred to his friend by such a nasty blood purist epithet is just an example of him lashing out because he was mad and embarrassed. That much is obvious, but how natural is it for the average person to start throwing around racial epithets when they're angry at somebody? That only comes from people who have an existing prejudice, not just when you're really frustrated.

Is it understandable that Snape was angry and hurt and lashed out at anybody he could? Yes. Is it understandable that he used an epithet to express it? No.

I love Snape/Lily but let's face it, Snape treated and regarded Lily as if she was a "good one."

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
But we also have to take note that Snape says this interrupting Lily when she talks about what Mulciber did to Mary McDonald. My take on the text is that regardless of whether Snape intended to interrupt her or was reacting instinctively, he still interrupts her and not listens anymore to what Lily has to say about Mulciber. This is also a very common tactic that people will use in an argument when not wanting to talk about something that may prove them to be in the wrong, and turning the conversation on the other person. As Lily asks after, "What's Potter got to do with anything?" And that's just it. James has nothing to do with what they were originally talking about.
Word.


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Last edited by random_musing; February 1st, 2010 at 5:08 am.
  #94  
Old February 1st, 2010, 5:18 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by random_musing View Post
I'm really shocked and surprised by the notion that the fact that Snape referred to his friend by such a nasty blood purist epithet is just an example of him lashing out because he was mad and embarrassed. That much is obvious, but how natural is it for the average person to start throwing around racial epithets when they're angry at somebody? That only comes from people who have an existing prejudice, not just when you're really frustrated.

Is it understandable that Snape was angry and hurt and lashed out at anybody he could? Yes. Is it understandable that he used an epithet to express it? No.
I know I've been stating certain aspects of Harry Potter are parallel to real life (maybe this is why the books are so good. ), but this is also another. There are people in real life who use racial slurs out of anger all the time. But guess what? It's still racist. And the person lashing out the slur is a racist for doing so.

Quote:
I love Snape/Lily but let's face it, Snape treated and regarded Lily as if she was a "good one."
I love Snape/Lily as well. But nobody should ever settle with being the "exception."


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Last edited by RavenStar83; February 1st, 2010 at 6:47 am.
  #95  
Old February 1st, 2010, 5:29 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
I love Snape/Lily as well. But nobody should ever settle with being the "exception."
And nobody should be expected to have to convince their best friend that they're more than an exception. It seems as though Lily was making excuses to cling to the notion that things in their relationship would improve, especially on the blood prejudice part. But when Lily is criticized for not trying hard enough to prove her worth to her best friend...uh, I find that incredibly problematic and simply more evidence that their friendship was dysfunctional from start to finish.


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  #96  
Old February 1st, 2010, 8:52 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

[
Quote:
QUOTE=silver ink pot;5490787] Well-said, kittling. They are each getting frustrated with the other one. I really believe they each mean well and want the best for each other (each warning the other about dangerous friends) but the communication between them is garbled. QUOTE]
Oh I think the communication between them works all too well. IMO the problem is Snape does not want to hear what Lily has to say because it is striking all too close to the bone. He interrupts her with the first thing that comes into his mind, James and Co. This is unfortunate for him because I think the last thing he wants is for Lily to see James in a good light. Things go from bad to worse in this conversation because of his ham-handed way of trying to control the conversation, Lily's reaction and his reaction to her uncomfortable truths. He is the one to mention James, and he is the one who is jealous of James. He is the one to tell Lily that James Potter fancies her, bringing James attraction to her attention. These are all major mistakes on his part, culminating with the unfortunate ' I won't let you.' Lily doen's really let herself be sidetracked that easily, but her puzzlement is very plain. She doesn't like James and she has no idea what Snape is talking about. The real distraction is when he says 'I won't let you.' That gets her attention and Severus has acheived his original goal to change the subject.

Quote:
Post by Ravenstar
I do not deny that there were reasons behind it. And yes, I do understand it is easier to take your anger out on the people close to you. (We saw Harry do this through out Year 5.) But if Snape was going to take it out on Lily, he could have said so many other things directed at her. But he referred to her as a filthy mudblood. As I said before, it says a lot about a person when they use a racial slur. And I mention this because given how serious racism is in the books and how its executed, this is not something to take lightly regardless of the reason or what kind of person said it. Yet I have seen reasons explaining that this is something Lily should have forgiven, and she is criticized for not doing so.
Raven, if it came across that I thought it was okay for Snape to lash out as he did, please believe me I don't. I know why he did it, but I am not okay with what he did. Understanding is not condoning, please believe me when I say this. It is never all right to say what he did, in the UK it is qualified as a hate crime and quite right I say


  #97  
Old February 1st, 2010, 9:15 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Oh I think the communication between them works all too well. IMO the problem is Snape does not want to hear what Lily has to say because it is striking all too close to the bone. He interrupts her with the first thing that comes into his mind, James and Co. This is unfortunate for him because I think the last thing he wants is for Lily to see James in a good light. Things go from bad to worse in this conversation because of his ham-handed way of trying to control the conversation, Lily's reaction and his reaction to her uncomfortable truths. He is the one to mention James, and he is the one who is jealous of James. He is the one to tell Lily that James Potter fancies her, bringing James attraction to her attention. These are all major mistakes on his part, culminating with the unfortunate ' I won't let you.' Lily doen's really let herself be sidetracked that easily, but her puzzlement is very plain. She doesn't like James and she has no idea what Snape is talking about. The real distraction is when he says 'I won't let you.' That gets her attention and Severus has acheived his original goal to change the subject.
This I agree with.


Quote:
Raven, if it came across that I thought it was okay for Snape to lash out as he did, please believe me I don't. I know why he did it, but I am not okay with what he did. Understanding is not condoning, please believe me when I say this. It is never all right to say what he did, in the UK it is qualified as a hate crime and quite right I say
I understand that, and I actually do agree with you on the aspect that emotion played a part in Snape's action towards Lily. I was only trying to emphasize that it was much more than that.


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  #98  
Old February 1st, 2010, 10:39 am
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Annielogic  Female.gif Annielogic is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post

Raven, if it came across that I thought it was okay for Snape to lash out as he did, please believe me I don't. I know why he did it, but I am not okay with what he did. Understanding is not condoning, please believe me when I say this.
Exactly, when some readers are trying to find an explanation or understand what makes a character tick, how and why they got to a certain point, that does not equalise justification or condoning. Certainly not, as I've said before, in my case.



Last edited by Annielogic; February 1st, 2010 at 10:52 am.
  #99  
Old February 1st, 2010, 10:59 am
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
But we also have to take note that Snape says this interrupting Lily when she talks about what Mulciber did to Mary McDonald. My take on the text is that regardless of whether Snape intended to interrupt her or was reacting instinctively, he still interrupts her and not listens anymore to what Lily has to say about Mulciber.This is also a very common tactic that people will use in an argument when not wanting to talk about something that may prove them to be in the wrong, and turning the conversation on the other person.
To me it makes a big difference as to whether Severus deliberately interrupts Lily, or reacts with an emotional response. The former suggests to me a voluntary action aimed to divert the conversation, a tactical action. Whereas the latter is an emotional response which results in diverting the conversation and therefore not a tactic.

EDIT: This is just days after the werewolf incident of which Severus thinks James and his friends tried to kill him. So, when Lily mentions Mulciber and the things he does, I think Severus' mind naturally jumps immediately to James and his mates, because as far has he is concerned they tried to commit a far greater crime than anything Mulciber did, that of murder. Not only that but Severus has been banned from telling anyone of the incident, and hasn't even told his friend. Yes, James has nothing to do with what Lily is talking about, and Severus doesn't listen to her concerns. However, I don't think he is using a deliberate tactic to avoid the subject of Mulciber.

What I think Severus sadly fails to see with all his insecurities and fears, is that two wrongs don't make a right and that Lily has a valid point regarding Mulciber.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; February 1st, 2010 at 11:15 am.
  #100  
Old February 1st, 2010, 11:18 am
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
To me it makes a big difference as to whether Severus deliberately interrupts Lily, or reacts with an emotional response. The former suggests to me a voluntary action aimed to divert the conversation, a tactical action. Whereas the latter is an emotional response which results in diverting the conversation and therefore not a tactic.

What I think Severus sadly fails to see with all his insecurities and fears, is that two wrongs don't make a right and that Lily has a valid point regarding Mulciber.
I think it was a deliberate attempt to divert the conversation, but it was driven by emotion on Severus' part. That emotion was his underlying anger and hatred for the Marauders. These negative emotions led him to jump from the frying pan directly into the fire.


 
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