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Should prostitution be made legal?



 
 
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  #261  
Old May 28th, 2007, 9:08 am
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Why would I care about a criminal's opinion? It would matter less than the scrapings off of my boot.
Criminality has little to do with right- or wronged-ness in this case. During the Revolutionary War, traitors to the Throne were heroes of the new United States.

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Really? Says who? (I would think twice before replying to that. Most people have a price. Prostitutes have a cheaper price.)
Yeah, a price? I would call a price consent. I'm amused, though, how you ignored the middle third of that graph. Here, I'll summon it for you:

'... They can't ask the prostitute to jump off a building. There are limits. If the prostitute doesn't feel comfortable performing a task, they don't have to do it. The customer can seek another's services. Barking like a dog is relatively harmless. ...'

Raise the price or find another prostitute. Whatever works, eh? Either way, it's consent. Please, though, I don't want you to mistake my approval of prostitution for approval of human trafficking. I would hope you don't think that I'm completely without morals. What happens to those young girls (yes girls because, though I'm quite familiar with male prostitution, thank you, human trafficking is pretty much solely concerned with those of the female persuasion,) is just wretched. And I feel that the legalisation of prostitution would cut down immensly the human trafficking in the places where it happens because it would open up the industry for regulation and protection. That is absolutely a good thing.

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Wow. Just wow.
I don't want to turn prostitution into slavery. It already is for most. (Look! Another Link)
Prostitution is not slavery. Human trafficking is slavery. Incidentally there is quite a lot of human trafficking mixed with prostitution in several parts of the world (Spain and Italy come to mind because I've seen it first hand there.) But someone who voluntarily goes into the trade is not a slave. That's all I'm saying. Someone who wants to be a prostitute (and please, you won't impress me with your links and statistics because I do know several people who are prostitutes more or less of their own ambition) is not a slave and they should be allowed to be. It's totally legitimate in my opinion.

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Again irrelevant. (Out of a hundred, you just might dredge up 2 males.)
Is it that irrelevant, though? Males seem to be prostitutes for only short periods of time. They use it as a temporary source of income and move onto something more stable and more conventional. If males go in and out of it more easily than females, maybe there is something to learn there. Is male prostitution more accepted than female prostitution? Maybe or maybe not. One definitely does not hear about it in the news media as much. It's something that's very discreet, very 'hush hush' (to quote Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang if you've seen it), so it would seem that most people just turn the other way when it happens. I'd even hypothesise that since it seems to be a little more accepted, it's therefore easier for the men to get out of it.

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Drawn and erased and redrawn huh?
So what other criminal activity is on the horizon that someone will attempt to legitimize?
Sorry...But that will not help legalize a current illegal activity.
Prohibition of alcohol in the US is something that comes to my mind when we're talking about once criminal activity that's now accepted. Drinking was also legal long before the eighteenth amendment was added, and prohibition didn't stop the bathtub gin and moonshine from flowing during that somber period in American history. Seems to be similar (or could be so in the future) to prostitution as MasterFroggy pointed out a few posts back. You say that it was not recognised as a problem but it was still not legal. Please inform me how it was illegal if it was not recognised as a problem and there were no laws restricting it.

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(When was homosexuality criminal? When was it criminal for a black man to sit on a bus? Jim Crow laws required bus drivers to enforce separate seating sections, but I don't ever recall what you posted. *shrugs* Off-topic anyway)
Seriously? You don't know that homosexuality used to be criminal? Here's a wikipedia article for a quick overview: Sodomy Laws in the US. From the article:

Sodomy Laws in the United States (emphasis added)In the 1950s, all states had some form of law criminalizing sodomy, and in 1986 the United States Supreme Court ruled that nothing in the United States Constitution bars a state from prohibiting sodomy. However, state legislators and state courts had started to repeal or overturn their sodomy laws, beginning with Illinois in 1961, and thus in 2003, only 10 states had laws prohibiting all sodomy, with penalties ranging from 1 to 15 years imprisonment. Additionally, four other states had laws that specifically prohibited same-sex sodomy. That year the United States Supreme Court reversed its 1986 Bowers v. Hardwick ruling and in Lawrence v. Texas, invalidated these laws as being an unconstitutional violation of privacy, with Sandra Day O'Connor's concurring opinion arguing that they violated equal protection.


As for the race issue ... *shrugs* ... I guess not having the right to vote etc didn't necessarily exhibit criminality if they tried to? And Emancipation Proclamation day was just yesterday. :/ I'm just saying that these things aren't really that off-topic because they show periods in the American past where there were certain activities either illigal or unapproved (pick your favourite adjective) which are now reversed. It could be the same for prostitution, and I don't see why it shouldn't be. It seems the only consistent reason people offer in opposition to prostitution is their own morals.

Since several people in this thread have stated that they don't believe it's immoral themselves, we need to look at something besides morality. The slavery issue has been addressed. Prostitution does not excuse human trafficking. Legalisation of prostitution would probably do a lot to abolish that slavery. So either give us a new spin on slavery (because we sincerely haven't exhausted it) or bring up something new. I think it's excellent that we are debating this because it's a hot issue. Considering tradition and traditional values and morals, I don't think any decision to make prostitution legal should be made rashly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Uh..hello? A man can still have sex with his wife.
Yeah, so. He can also go and pick up a one-night-stand in a bar - certainly so if he's not married. He can flirt with a friend. He can go to a bathhouse. He can also pick up a prostitute, and he can do all of these things in order to have sex. Prostitution is still exclusively about sex even if sex is not even remotely exclusively about prostitution.

***

As a side note, I regret that I won't be around to post here for a few months. The debate's hot and some excellent points are being raised on both sides, but I want everyone to know that I'm not just "dropping" the discussion even though that's essentially what I am doing. I hope some of the other pro-prostitution debaters are up for replies to an imminent rebuttal of this last post of mine because I'd hate it if the anti-prostitution side thought I had conceded. Anyway, it's been mostly a pleasure and happy debating!


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  #262  
Old May 28th, 2007, 9:42 am
Nathaniel  Male.gif Nathaniel is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
If such means little to others then there isn't any question about dignity or those other "little" things that apparently matter so much to the majority.
Umm... okay. If you say so. All my point was was that, since every human being is different, and every human being has free will, and every human being thinks differently...

In other words (to use a seriously unrelated, but ultra-extreme example), killing people who aren't white, are Jewish, and tall and muscular or skinny and sexy, and don't have blond hair and blue eyes is (apparently) morally acceptable to some to preserve the "master race," but this is not morally acceptable to others.

My point is, morals are different for every body, including your most basic ones.

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Quite right.
Or as I already posted; A man isn't going to look at a woman in an equal light after he paid her to throw away her dignity.
And this is what we call personal matters that the government should not be a part of.

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?
I take it you're not American.
Born and raised (a Yankee, in fact, straight from Connecticut). In fact, I've never been out of the country, or beyond the east coast, for that matter.

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It has always been so. (Except in certain counties in the state of Nevada)
Only since the beginning of the 20th century. So you are wrong.

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I hate to break it to you but it is still very illegal here.
Which needs to change.

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Uh..hello? A man can still have sex with his wife.
Uh... hello? That's called love. Not just your basic, animalistic sex.

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Sorry but prostitutes are still criminals. (And considering that there isn't any legislation on any states' table that even questions that, it is likely to remains so indefinitely.)
I'm sorry, but I thought that when crimes were committed, there are usually victims? Whose the victim, here? The customer sure ain't the victim, 'cause (s)he's the one paying for it. And if it's the prostitute, then the criminal is the customer.

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Protecting? Or deporting them to their country of origin?
And since when are all the prostitutes in America foreign?

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How can "we" protect "them" when they are more afraid of the traffickers than us?
Err... by keeping trafficking illegal, like I said?

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San Francisco Is A Major Center For International Crime Networks That Smuggle And Enslave:
Women are scared for good reason. Those who have become witnesses have been burned with acid, have disappeared, or have had their homes ransacked and their families harmed or threatened in their home countries, said Dong Shim Kim, head counselor at Du Re Bang (My Sister's Place), a shelter for sex trafficking victims in South Korea.
This is a sad issue, and needs to be fixed. You know what the main issue is, though? Those women can't go to the police, because they'll get thrown in jail, too. They have no choice, and no protection. Now imagine they had a choice and could get protection without fear of being jailed or misused by the cops because of their profession?

Do you know why San Francisco has this problem? Because prostitution is illegal, these women can't get help.

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Umm...because it is still illegal and very much a crime? (I hate to break it to you but that is the truth.)
No... kidding..., Sherlock. I got that. I'm saying it needs to change.

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Really? You might want to tell Germany that. It would be news to them I'm sure!
Last I learned it was legal.

If I'm wrong, show me, please. I make mistakes, and I can admit, and if I've made one, correct me (with a source).

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Unfortunately, legalizing prostitution opens up quite the can of worms.

My prior post
And yet again, a narrow-minded "it all goes together" response. That just ain't true.

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Great idea. Lets put the kids in jail...
Yes. Ever heard of Juvenile Hall?

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Another wonder of an idea! Let's keep the prostitutes enslaved...
*screams*
What! The! ...!

Don't tell me to go back and read your posts if you aren't going to read mine!

How does legalizing prostitution make the women slaves? How? Because by default it legalizes Human Trafficking? The WHOLE POINT of legalizing prostitution is to PROTECT prostitutes FROM human trafficking! In other words, allow them to do their jobs freely withOUT the fear of becoming sex slaves. That's the whole dang point. Make it legal, and they can go to the cops and report pimps and other human traffickers, who would be the criminals. Then the cops could arrest the pimps and human traffickers, and the prostitute could go back to the brothel to conduct her business safely. That's the whole dang point.

And the prostitute is NOT a criminal because the prostitute leaves NO victims unless that prostitute is the victim HERSELF, which is why it should be legalized so the victimized prostitute can get the help and safety she deserve as a living human being!

Quote:
*sigh*

I feel a headache coming...

I had a headache already before I started replying. Now I think I need an Imitrex...


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  #263  
Old May 28th, 2007, 10:07 am
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

I'm not pointing any fingers because we're all a little guilty, but if we carry on with insulting each other, this thread will likely be closed. I'm sure we'd all say the same about our own posts, but I want to make sure that everyone knows that my posts have been a little sarcastic and often frank, but I've never meant to offend anyone.


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  #264  
Old May 28th, 2007, 10:11 am
Nathaniel  Male.gif Nathaniel is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
I'm not pointing any fingers because we're all a little guilty, but if we carry on with insulting each other, this thread will likely be closed. I'm sure we'd all say the same about our own posts, but I want to make sure that everyone knows that my posts have been a little sarcastic and often frank, but I've never meant to offend anyone.
And I should say, neither have I meant to offend anyone (you especially, Midnightsfire). Some things do get under my skin, though, and people not reading my posts and then accusing me of the very same thing (and whether or not that is the case, which, looking back, it was to a point [though I try and defend myself by saying that I responded to the latest post I saw] it's hypocritical) is one of them... but I do apologize for the harsh tone.


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  #265  
Old May 28th, 2007, 10:59 am
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

This issue can be discussed without snarky retorts. Please take a moment to read Jessica's "How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic" and remember to be polite and respectful to your fellow members.


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  #266  
Old May 28th, 2007, 11:15 am
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weazleby View Post
Not to be persnickety, but just because something is legal, doesn't mean it is morally acceptable. Disclaimer: I am not comparing the two issues, but trying to make a point, but child labor was at one time legal. That did not make it any less reprehensible. Legality and morality do not always walk hand-in-hand with each other. I think prostitution was legal, but then made illegal when looked upon by the friendly (cough) Prohibition proponents, who wanted to rid the country of our overwhelming vices (sex, booze and gangs). In other words, it was made illegal on moral grounds.

Maybe it's me, but the terms have different connotations (but maybe not actual differences). "Legal" implies that not only is it not illegal, but it is somehow actively protected or regulated by the government. "Illegal" is simply that. Ignorance, for lack of a better word, is the middle ground. It isn't illegal but it isn't looked favorably upon by anyone.
I just want to note that the topic of this thread is legality, not morality. I would prefer that prostitution did not exist, and I am not a proponent of the activity. However, I don't feel that individual morals can be brought into this debate fairly because morals differ so much from person to person, and I don't believe that any of us here can safely speak for a majority unless a massive (and I mean millions of people, not thousands) nation-wide poll is taken and a majority found.

To say that this topic isn't looked favorably upon by anyone tends to disregard certain posters' expressed opinions, and I think of Rastaban here. I have never thought of the word "legal" as meaning that something is not only not illegal but supported and protected by my own government; I think it to mean more condoning than advocating. My government does not advocate the use of tobacco or alcohol, but they do condone it in that it is not illegal and is therefore a protected right. And just as there are laws governing the use of alcohol to ensure the safety of those who use it and are exposed to those who use it, I believe there should be laws governing prostitutes, as well, for the safety of those who practice and those who come into contact with those who practice it.


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  #267  
Old May 28th, 2007, 1:14 pm
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
If criminals desire safety then they shouldn't do the crime.

Sex and prostitution are two very different issue. Keep them separate.

......

Why would I care about a criminal's opinion? It would matter less than the scrapings off of my boot.
Here's a situation. When I was in the USA, a friend of mine was offered $4000 to have sex with a homosexual man, who fancied him very much. My friend refused, because he was heterosexual. But if that homosexual man were a woman, or if my friend were homosexual and had accepted and taken the money, would that have made him a criminal? And another question - was this about sex or about prostitution? And what is the difference, if any, between this situation and prostitution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Really? You might want to tell Germany that. It would be news to them I'm sure!
Human trafficking is illegal everywhere in Europe, while prostitution is legal in some of the countries. Which proves the two are separate things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaniel View Post
I'm sorry, but I thought that when crimes were committed, there are usually victims? Whose the victim, here? The customer sure ain't the victim, 'cause (s)he's the one paying for it. And if it's the prostitute, then the criminal is the customer.

......

And the prostitute is NOT a criminal because the prostitute leaves NO victims unless that prostitute is the victim HERSELF, which is why it should be legalized so the victimized prostitute can get the help and safety she deserve as a living human being!
Exactly. Very well put

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How does legalizing prostitution make the women slaves? How? Because by default it legalizes Human Trafficking? The WHOLE POINT of legalizing prostitution is to PROTECT prostitutes FROM human trafficking! In other words, allow them to do their jobs freely withOUT the fear of becoming sex slaves. That's the whole dang point. Make it legal, and they can go to the cops and report pimps and other human traffickers, who would be the criminals. Then the cops could arrest the pimps and human traffickers, and the prostitute could go back to the brothel to conduct her business safely. That's the whole dang point.
Again, I agree completely.


  #268  
Old May 28th, 2007, 8:18 pm
Masterfroggy  Male.gif Masterfroggy is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weazleby View Post
Not to be persnickety, but just because something is legal, doesn't mean it is morally acceptable.
I take it by this comment that you think of morals being “absolutes” that something now thought of as “immoral” has always been thought of thus.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, this is not the case, morals reflect the society not the other way round. A hundred years ago, society’s moral codes were vastly different to the ones we have today, and two hundred years before that they were different to the morals of a hundred years ago.


  #269  
Old May 28th, 2007, 8:44 pm
Weazleby  Female.gif Weazleby is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
I just want to note that the topic of this thread is legality, not morality.
Understood, I was just pointing out the difference between the legality and morality of an issue in someone else's post, which they seem to have forgotten.
Quote:
I take it by this comment that you think of morals being “absolutes” that something now thought of as “immoral” has always been thought of thus.
No. The point I was trying to make is that the law is usually a couple decades behind popular opinion (including morals, if one is under the belief that morals change). The law is tricky because it is a. supposed to reflect the general consensus of thought but also b. give help or protection to those who need it (while at the same time maintaining objectivity that doesn't discriminate). And that is the dividing issue with legalizing prostitution. There are those who don't agree with it based on moral grounds but also concede that there are serious dangers that need to be rectified (i.e. they don't want to legalize prostitution because it implies they agree with it morally but accept that there is help that is needed). Then there are those who don't find prosititution at odds with their morals and want to help, and thus support legalizing it.
Quote:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, this is not the case, morals reflect the society not the other way round. A hundred years ago, society’s moral codes were vastly different to the ones we have today, and two hundred years before that they were different to the morals of a hundred years ago.
Off topic, but yes, I knew that. And I think my post supported that, if not I must have not explained myself clearly. We have the luxury of looking back on history's mistakes and point fingers. I think sometimes we forget that what is socially and morally acceptable is always actively changing, whether we want it to or not.


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  #270  
Old May 28th, 2007, 9:17 pm
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weazleby View Post
Understood, I was just pointing out the difference between the legality and morality of an issue in someone else's post, which they seem to have forgotten.

No. The point I was trying to make is that the law is usually a couple decades behind popular opinion (including morals, if one is under the belief that morals change). The law is tricky because it is a. supposed to reflect the general consensus of thought but also b. give help or protection to those who need it (while at the same time maintaining objectivity that doesn't discriminate). And that is the dividing issue with legalizing prostitution. There are those who don't agree with it based on moral grounds but also concede that there are serious dangers that need to be rectified (i.e. they don't want to legalize prostitution because it implies they agree with it morally but accept that there is help that is needed). Then there are those who don't find prosititution at odds with their morals and want to help, and thus support legalizing it.

Off topic, but yes, I knew that. And I think my post supported that, if not I must have not explained myself clearly. We have the luxury of looking back on history's mistakes and point fingers. I think sometimes we forget that what is socially and morally acceptable is always actively changing, whether we want it to or not.
Okay, I thought you were going in a completely different direction with your last post.


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  #271  
Old May 29th, 2007, 12:07 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
While I don't resent the implication that I haven't read carefully enough--it may be true--I also don't think what you posted means what you seem to be claiming.
It apparently is true. No one likes going through the links posted simply because the info is there, info that contradicts another's opinion. (Having an opiniion is one thing. Reading an informed opinion, especially one that may contradict another's, is well unfortunately ignored. But I guess I should be used to that by now from other threads)
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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
If human trafficking is rampant in places where prostitution is illegal, that doesn't mean making prostitution legal will necessarily increase the prevalence of human trafficking.
*sigh* Return to the links posted. In almost every case where prostitution was legalized, human trafficking increased, in some cases it skyrocketted.
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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
If there was a prostitute who enjoyed her work and didn't find demoralizing, would you have a different opinion about her position in particular?
Nope. She is what she is, isn't she?
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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
There's a difference between someone being hurt by a piece of glass and someone being hurt by another person.
A person walking down a dimly lit street avoiding certain areas just to get where he/she may be going safely is one thing.
A person walking down a dimly lit street not avoiding anything and hope to meet a prospective customer is taking her chances.
So that is her problem.
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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Yes, people can do things that increase their risk of being attacked, and many of these actions would be considered foolish, but in order to be attacked, someone else has to choose to do it to you.
So? And I am supposed to care about someone being remarkably stupid, criminally so?
If someone desires to practice an unsafe occupation, then they take their chances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I'm curious, though. If you believe that all prostitutes are slaves forced into the job, then why do you care so little about what happens to them?
I never used the word "all."
But where do you think the money is going to come from? My taxes. The only thing I want to pay for is the one-way ticket for those who are here illegally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Even that site differentiates between prostitution and involuntary prostitution. There's a huge difference.
There is isn't there. What did it read?
89% wanted to escape, but did not have other options for survival
65% to 95% had been sexually assaulted as children
70% to 95% were physically assaulted
60% to 75% were raped
88% experienced verbal abuse and social contempt
68% met criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. The severity of symptoms was in the same range as combat veterans seeking treatment, battered women seeking shelter, rape survivors, and refugees from state-organised torture
...that should make anyone think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Even if someone doesn't have a problem with it? I doubt most people in relationships would describe their sex as invasive, and I'm sure there are prostitutes who wouldn't, either.
Since you're tossing examples out, lets not forget rape victims. I'm sure they and any pychiatrist would disagree.
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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Are you suggesting that we ignore women who are honestly enslaved? It may be hard to help them, but I think we have a moral responsibility to try.
You obviously missed the obvious sarcasm earlier..
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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
For instance, I doubt many people who work in fast food restaurants choose that job because of the glamour and excitement.
Hmm...perhaps they don't aspire to the glamour that prostitution offers...or perhaps they realize that prostitution isn't an option and should never be an option.
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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Criminality has little to do with right- or wronged-ness in this case. During the Revolutionary War, traitors to the Throne were heroes of the new United States.
That analogy means absolutely nothing here.
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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Someone who wants to be a prostitute (and please, you won't impress me with your links and statistics because I do know several people who are prostitutes more or less of their own ambition) is not a slave and they should be allowed to be. It's totally legitimate in my opinion.
Don't let the truth ever get in the way of having a differing opinion. (Knowing several people doesn't compare to my own experiences. So lets just simply keep to the umm..facts.)
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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Is it that irrelevant, though?
Goodness yes!
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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Prohibition of alcohol in the US is something that comes to my mind when we're talking about once criminal activity that's now accepted.
And how far do you think that line will go? And considering how problematic alcohol after it became accepted (and it still is problematic) What other criminal activity will be advocated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Legalisation of prostitution would probably do a lot to abolish that slavery.
Are you joking?
*grumbles*
I guess you think that I posted the links because they were amusing...
They aren't. Human trafficking has increased whenever prostitution was legalized.
(So, why don't you go back and read those links. How about another link? Prostitution Research Fact Sheet)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Prostitution is still exclusively about sex even if sex is not even remotely exclusively about prostitution.
But sex isn't prostitution. Unless you agree with the person in the above link:
"I am a firm believer that all women… are prostitutes at one time or another"
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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
But if that homosexual man were a woman, or if my friend were homosexual and had accepted and taken the money, would that have made him a criminal?
Yes. According to the law.
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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
And another question - was this about sex or about prostitution?
The law would have defined that as prostitution.
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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
And what is the difference, if any, between this situation and prostitution?
No difference.
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Originally Posted by Nathaniel View Post
Last I learned it was legal. If I'm wrong, show me, please. I make mistakes, and I can admit, and if I've made one, correct me (with a source).
I already gave two sources earlier in this post about human trafficking in Germany. And you replied that human trafficking was legal.
How many more sources do you need?
I suspect you meant that brothels were legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weazleby View Post
Understood, I was just pointing out the difference between the legality and morality of an issue in someone else's post, which they seem to have forgotten.
I can understand why some may confuse morality and legality.
Once moral absolutes are dismissed, (i.e. the belief in Good and Evil) the rule of law tends to go out the window. (And then there are those pesky social taboos that society has observed for millenia)
However, since this is off-topic...


My apologies to those who's comments I've missed. (This is going to be a long rebuttal as it is)

But I have to say all "this" makes for a rompin' debate. Even though it seems I'm the main dissenting opinion here. I daresay this thread wouldn't have received nearly as many replies if everyone agreed with each other. (Threads tend to become rather boring when that happens...)


Bring it on! Make me work for a rebuttal! OW!


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  #272  
Old May 29th, 2007, 12:16 am
DancingMaenid  Undisclosed.gif DancingMaenid is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Here's a situation. When I was in the USA, a friend of mine was offered $4000 to have sex with a homosexual man, who fancied him very much. My friend refused, because he was heterosexual. But if that homosexual man were a woman, or if my friend were homosexual and had accepted and taken the money, would that have made him a criminal? And another question - was this about sex or about prostitution? And what is the difference, if any, between this situation and prostitution?
That's a good example. To me, if your friend had taken the guy up on the offer, that would be a personal decision. I don't think the government should have a say in why people decide to have sex. There are some valid laws regarding kinds of sex (for example, non-consensual sex and sex with someone legally unable to consent is illegal for a good reason), but how can the government control people's motives and and what they get out of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
A person walking down a dimly lit street avoiding certain areas just to get where he/she may be going safely is one thing.
A person walking down a dimly lit street not avoiding anything and hope to meet a prospective customer is taking her chances.
So that is her problem.
What about people who go to bars for the purpose of meeting people to go home with? What they're doing is legal, but still not that safe.

Quote:
There is isn't there. What did it read?
89% wanted to escape, but did not have other options for survival
65% to 95% had been sexually assaulted as children
70% to 95% were physically assaulted
60% to 75% were raped
88% experienced verbal abuse and social contempt
68% met criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. The severity of symptoms was in the same range as combat veterans seeking treatment, battered women seeking shelter, rape survivors, and refugees from state-organised torture
...that should make anyone think.
The first paragraph of that site says:

Quote:
"Voluntary prostitution is not the problem. But the forced prostitution that goes hand in hand with trafficking is extremely serious, yet not a lot is being done about it."
Of course there are major problems when it comes to women who are forced into prostitution. If a woman is forced to be a prostitute, then that, by my standards, is already rape and physical assault. Nobody here is arguing that that's okay. What I and others are arguing is that the women who enter into voluntary prostitution have a right to do so. And I don't think that site is referring to women who make that choice.

Quote:
Since you're tossing examples out, lets not forget rape victims. I'm sure they and any pychiatrist would disagree.
I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Rape is definitely invasive and upsetting. As is coerced or unwanted sex of any other kind. What I'm saying is that women who choose to be prostitutes may not feel that the sex they have is invasive or traumatizing. Prostitution is not the same as rape, though prostitutes can certainly be raped.

Quote:
Hmm...perhaps they don't aspire to the glamour that prostitution offers...or perhaps they realize that prostitution isn't an option and should never be an option.
My point was that people need to work. Sometimes the jobs available to them aren't the greatest jobs around. I was never suggesting that prostitution is a good job and I don't know how my comment could be read that way.

How can you say it's never an option? Let's say you're an 18-year-old girl (we'll say 18 since any younger, and you get into child prostitution, which definitely should not be legal) who leaves home because your parents are abusive. You have nobody to stay with, but you can't stay at home, either. You have no money for college. You don't have enough for an apartment. Your only real options are the street or the homeless shelter, neither of which are a good long-term plan. Prostitution will allow you to make a lot of money and maybe get an okay start. No, maybe it's not a good option, but if you were hungry and cold, wouldn't getting money sound appealing? For some people, this would definitely make prostitution an option. For others, it wouldn't be. It really depends on the person and the situation.

Quote:
Don't let the truth ever get in the way of having a differing opinion. (Knowing several people doesn't compare to my own experiences. So lets just simply keep to the umm..facts.)
So different people can't see and experience different things? Why can't Rastaban have known these people, and why doesn't that matter?

My mom has known Jews who didn't keep kosher. The ones I've known have kept kosher. This doesn't mean that all Jews keep kosher (especially if they aren't devout) and my mom is wrong. All it means is that people, even people in a certain group, are diverse and my mom and I have known different people.

I remember, when I was volunteering for an advice column, we got a letter from a gal saying she was a prostitute. She said she'd chosen it on her own, had no pimp and did everything she could to stay safe. She regularly got tested and only met clients in motel rooms. She was making a lot of money and said she didn't have any moral qualms about what she was doing. Is it possible she was lying? Perhaps. It's also very possible she wasn't.

Quote:
But sex isn't prostitution. Unless you agree with the person in the above link:
"I am a firm believer that all women… are prostitutes at one time or another"
No, but prostitution involves sex. It's a motive and way for having sex.

Quote:
But I have to say all "this" makes for a rompin' debate. Even though it seems I'm the main dissenting opinion here. I daresay this thread wouldn't have received nearly as many replies if everyone agreed with each other. (Threads tend to become rather boring when that happens...)
Heh, I've got to agree with you there. Things do get boring when everyone agrees. I'm not a fan of discord, but being a writer, I definitely see healthy (in this case, hopefully friendly) conflict as being beneficial.


  #273  
Old May 29th, 2007, 1:19 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
What about people who go to bars for the purpose of meeting people to go home with? What they're doing is legal, but still not that safe.
And just how far do you want ot go with that?
I mean anyone can get hit by a car crossing a street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
The first paragraph of that site says:
So lets legitmizie the minority and hope for the best?
I say do something about the rather overwhelming majority first and foremost before addressing whether or not such should become legal.
Heh...and give that majority the final vote since they were the ones most affected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Let's say you're an 18-year-old girl
Lets not play "What if" games. They do nothing for debate except play into fallacious thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
So different people can't see and experience different things? Why can't Rastaban have known these people, and why doesn't that matter?
Oh please...
Since you asked (and this will be the only time I address this), it is no great secret (at least to the older members here) that I was raised in one of the worst areas in the US. Where all the "ladies" be ho'ing and blo'ing (and that's just for a tease). Add the fact that I have only "escaped" my charming environment a decade ago and I'm the eldest posting in this thread. Do you think anyone will come close to my experiences? Perhaps...perhaps not.

Sure others may post their experiences. But I will ignore such.


Ready for the next round...um kind of


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  #274  
Old May 29th, 2007, 1:38 am
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Hem, hem...

If people can't debate this issue (and only the issue, not each other) without the snark then perhaps they had better not participate in this debate.

You've been warned by Tonks and Kingwidgit to keep it civil and I'm not seeing that happen. This is the last (semi)friendly warning. Warning points and DoIMC bans will come next...


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  #275  
Old May 29th, 2007, 1:53 am
Weazleby  Female.gif Weazleby is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Okay, I thought you were going in a completely different direction with your last post.
Sorry, I needed to explain myself better in the context of the actual thread.
Quote:
However, since this is off-topic...
Well, it would be normally, but alot of posts are debating either pro- or anti- prostituion based on the morality, as opposed to the legality of it (which is the point of this thread). Sometimes the off-topic posts are too irresistible to reply to.


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  #276  
Old May 29th, 2007, 7:22 am
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

I don't believe that one individual's personal experiences with any subject can sum up the reality of that subject. I also am not a fan of statistics and charts that show numbers that are hard to prove. For these reasons, I'm going to keep on saying this: A government's duty is to protect its citizens. All of them. Criminals are not given over to the public so that the public can decide how they want to deal with them; they are put somewhere to keep not only the general population safe, but to keep the criminals themselves safe as well.

So, criminals or not, prostitutes deserve the same protection that is given to anyone else in their country of residence. Does it really make sense to put a hardened criminal who has murdered and raped in a place where they will be looked after and fed and yet let people who are either making a living the only way they know how or are being forced to be raped over and over again be pushed into the background?
I personally don't think so. I believe it is important to give every person an equal chance to live a fulfilling life, whether they choose to sell their bodies to make money or not. This is my main reason for wanting prostitution to be legalized - once a prostitute doesn't have to worry about being jailed, he or she will most certainly feel safer coming forward if they need to. And they will be able to get the medical care so many of them need without needing to resort to lies.


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  #277  
Old May 29th, 2007, 7:35 pm
canismajoris  Male.gif canismajoris is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
It apparently is true. No one likes going through the links posted simply because the info is there, info that contradicts another's opinion. (Having an opiniion is one thing. Reading an informed opinion, especially one that may contradict another's, is well unfortunately ignored. But I guess I should be used to that by now from other threads)

*sigh* Return to the links posted. In almost every case where prostitution was legalized, human trafficking increased, in some cases it skyrocketted.
Well, if you prefer I can show you exactly why what you posted can be ignored within the context of our discussion. This will take a while:

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.Legalization amounts to sanctioning all aspects of the sex industry: the women themselves, the so-called "clients," and the pimps who, under the regime of legalization, are transformed into third party businessmen and legitimate sexual entrepreneurs. Legalization/decriminalization of the sex industry also converts brothels, sex clubs, massage parlors and other sites of prostitution activities into legitimate venues where commercial sexual acts are allowed to flourish legally with few restraints

Legalization does not mean sanctioning all aspects of the sex industry. You can't look at examples where it hasn't worked and then assume that the failures of some governments will necessarily be repeated. And for that matter, isn't converting brothels into legitimate businesses a good thing if it makes enforcement possible? Knowing where the brothels are ahead of time does quite a bit to curb abuse, I assure you. Plus, this bit only really counts as a bad thing if you believe prostitution is wrong, which I don't. Therefore I choose to ignore its conclusions, which are themselves faulty.

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex traffickingLegalized or decriminalized prostitution industries are one of the root causes of sex trafficking. One argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that legalization would help end the exploitation of desperate immigrant women trafficked for prostitution. A report done for the governmental Budapest Group* stated that 80% of women in the brothels in the Netherlands are trafficked from other countries.
The government of the Netherlands promotes itself as the champion of anti-trafficking policies and programs, yet cynically has removed every legal impediment to pimping, procurement and brothels. In the year 2000, the Dutch Ministry of Justice argued for a legal quota of foreign "sex workers," because the Dutch prostitution market demands a variety of "bodies"

So the only way to legalize prostitution is to completely remove all restrictions? Killing in self defense doesn't make murder legal, so why should legal prostitution make human trafficking legal? It sounds like the government of the Netherlands simply came up with horrible legislation. Instead of assuming that pattern is the only possible outcome, why isn't it possible to learn from those mistakes? This fact, if it's really true, is a good example of how not to make prostitution illegal--it is not proof that prostitution shouldn't be illegal.

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry.It expands it
Contrary to claims that legalization and decriminalization would regulate the expansion of the sex industry and bring it under control, the sex industry now accounts for 5 percent of the Netherlands economy. Over the last decade, as pimping became legalized and then brothels decriminalized in the Netherlands in 2000, the sex industry expanded 25 percent. At any hour of the day, women of all ages and races, dressed in hardly anything, are put on display in the notorious windows of Dutch brothels and sex clubs and offered for sale -- for male consumption. Most of them are women from other countries who have in all likelihood been trafficked into the Netherlands.

Can you prove that "most" of the prostitutes have been trafficked? Can you prove that most of them have entered the country unwillingly? "In all likelihood" is not the same as "evidence proves." This part is vague, and it attempts to draw a logical conclusion from a surprisingly anecdotal fact.

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.
Legalization was supposed to get prostituted women off the street. Many women don't want to register and undergo health checks, as required by law in certain countries legalizing prostitution, so legalization often drives them into street prostitution. And many women choose street prostitution because they want to avoid being controlled and exploited by the new sex "businessmen."

Prostitution is already a black market. Isn't it possible to entice prostitutes into participating in health and welfare programs by subisidizing them with taxable income earned from their trade? Once again, the previous note claims that in the Netherlands brothels and sex shops are the norm, so where's the evidence that so many women are driven to the streets? (where they already were, by the way) The point of legalizing prostitution is to change that, and if you start with the assumption that it can't be changed, you are guilty of a fallacy.

Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex Industry increases child prostitution.
Another argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that it would help end child prostitution. In reality, however, child prostitution in the Netherlands has increased dramatically during the 1990s. The Amsterdam-based ChildRight organization estimates that the number has gone from 4,000 children in 1996 to 15,000 in 2001. The group estimates that at least 5,000 of the children in prostitution are from other countries, with a large segment being Nigerian girls (Tiggeloven: 2001).
Child prostitution has dramatically risen in Victoria compared to other Australian states where prostitution has not been legalized. Of all the states and territories in Australia, the highest number of reported incidences of child prostitution came from Victoria. In a 1998 study undertaken by ECPAT (End Child Prostitution and Trafficking) who conducted research for the Australian National Inquiry on Child Prostitution, there was increased evidence of organized commercial exploitation of children.

I think it rather possible that there aren't reliable statistics for comparison in states and countries without legal prostitution. Making prostitution illegal has probably made it easier to identify and stop child prostitution. The claims of this organization are not proof that there is more child prostitution in those places, only that there is more evidence of it.

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.
The Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW) has conducted 2 major studies on sex trafficking and prostitution, interviewing almost 200 victims of commercial sexual exploitation. In these studies, women in prostitution indicated that prostitution establishments did little to protect them, regardless of whether they were in legal or illegal establishments. "The only time they protect anyone is to protect the customers."

So it's impossible to change that? Is keeping prostitution illegal going to protect those women? I think not. Why does the CATW claim there's no proactive solution to the problem?

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution.
With the advent of legalization in countries that have decriminalized the sex industry, many men who would not risk buying women for sex now see prostitution as acceptable. When the legal barriers disappear, so too do the social and ethical barriers to treating women as sexual commodities. Legalization of prostitution sends the message to new generations of men and boys that women are sexual commodities and that prostitution is harmless fun.

Does it send that message? Precisely what studies have been done on the subject, because I'm curious. Do you realize that a great number of men in the world already feel this way with or without legalized prostitution? This part is irrelevant because it amounts to a guess.

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.
A legalized system of prostitution that mandates health checks and certification only for women and not for clients is blatantly discriminatory to women. "Women only" health checks make no public health sense because monitoring prostituted women does not protect them from HIV/AIDS or STDs, since male "clients" can and do originally transmit disease to the women.

If legalized and regulated prostitution gave women a chance to stop being prostitutes while under the eye of the government, I think that would protect their health. As it is, those women are nothing but criminals. Does that promote their health?

Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.
Most women in prostitution did not make a rational choice to enter prostitution. They did not sit down one day and decide that they wanted to be prostitutes. Rather, such "choices" are better termed "survival strategies." Rather than consent, a prostituted woman more accurately complies to the only options available to her. Her compliance is required by the very fact of having to adapt to conditions of inequality that are set by the customer who pays her to do what he wants her to do.

The same can be said of anyone trying to survive. Since prostitution is illegal, that survival strategy is unnecessarily risky. If a woman's options included employment in a brothel with necessities of life, security, and health care, I don't think the picture would be quite as bleak.

Women in systems of Prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.
In a 5-country study on sex trafficking done by the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women and funded by the Ford Foundation, most of the 146 women interviewed strongly stated that prostitution should not be legalized and considered legitimate work, warning that legalization would create more risks and harm for women from already violent customer and pimps (Raymond et al, 2002). "No way. It's not a profession. It is humiliating and violence from the men's side." Not one woman interviewed wanted her children, family or friends to have to earn money by entering the sex industry. One stated: "Prostitution stripped me of my life, my health, everything."

Here's another anecdotal "proof" that relies on the opinions of a rather small set of prostitutes in a confined geographical area. Do I think that prostitutes should decide whether prostitution is illegal? Of course not. You are the one claiming they aren't making rational decisions in the first place, so why do their opinions suddenly carry so much weight? A bit of a contradiction, isn't it.


  #278  
Old May 29th, 2007, 7:52 pm
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Yoana  Female.gif Yoana is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

I have a question about why prostitution was made legal in the first place. Behind every criminalised acivity there is a reason for it to be classified as such. Meaning that for something to be a crime, there should be a concept behind it. So, what makes prostitution a crime? Why was it classified as such?


  #279  
Old May 29th, 2007, 9:02 pm
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Well, it depends where you live. In the UK, having sex for money is not a crime. Running a brothel or working as a pimp are crimes - that of "living off immoral earnings" and soliciting is a crime, but having sex for money is not a crime.


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  #280  
Old May 29th, 2007, 10:49 pm
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CathyWeasley  Female.gif CathyWeasley is offline
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Re: Should prostitution be made legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire
No one likes going through the links posted simply because the info is there, info that contradicts another's opinion.
The links you provided were to websites that are against the legalising of prostitution - in other words they are written by people who share your opinion. What you have provided is not just "information" but information slanted by people whose opinions are similar to or the same as yours.
One thing it did say is that most human trafficking is for the purposes of prostitution. I don't think anyone is surprised by this. But it does not mean that the reverse is true - that most prostitutes are victims of human trafficking.

You might find this interesting.

Note that the Salvation Army wants to help these women and children not criminalise them.


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