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Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2



 
 
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  #321  
Old July 10th, 2010, 5:49 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
I was referring to those in society, either men or women, who are not comfortable for whatever their own personal reasons, to allow women all opportunties/occupations, including those considered "male only" under a patriarchal view.
Yes, I understand. The thing that bothers me is their seems to be this stereotype that if a woman, personally, favors traditional roles that somehow she is "not allowing" or "not being supportive of" of women's rights because it seemingly allows a patriarchal view to be the "norm". Almost as if the traditional woman is passively assisting in the continuance of a male dominated society.

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Does that mean happy in a society where gender roles are clearly defined?
No what it means is happy with a society where they feel comfortable in the knowledge that they can do "non-traditional roles" if they wish, but also to appreciate the differences in genders and be comfortable with that as well.

For instance I know that my husband would be supportive if I decided to go after a science degree or wanted to become a mechanic. But he is also supportive of the fact that I want to stay at home to be with my son. And I think most women (in civilized countries) know this to be true. Conversely if my husband wanted to open a knitting shop I'd be fine with that, but I'm also fine with him going off to his network computing job. I'd be fine with him staying home and me working. He'd be fine with the same. But it just so happenes that we evaluated our priorities and based on our backgrounds and history this was the best choice for us. The fact that it was a turned out traditionally doesn't mean we actively made that a prority or felt that alternative methods were inferior.

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Apologies, it's my fault. I was kind of alluding back to the dialogue a few pages back where you and flimsey both said that you had had experience of feminists not caring about men's issues and not devoting enough resources/discussion to them , e.g. :
I can't speak for Tenshi but equal mean equal. If men are being abused then they have the same rights as women. One you start giving preference to one before the other sometimes to the exclusion of the other it's inherently not equal. It doesn't mean that feminists don't care about men (although I think we can agree that those kinds of feminists are out there) rather it seems at it root to contradict itself.

And I think that very often society is taken for patriarchal when it is not, or at least not it the traditional sense of the word.

I have been lucky enough to marry into a Syrian family. And I had these stereotypes of middle easterners as a very patriarchal until I saw with my own eyes how much they revered their women and how their women seemed to gracefully blend togther their roles as wives and mothers with their roles outside the home, especially here in America. It's fascinating to watch. There seems to be an inherent respect for both genders in Syrian culture. Sometimes it might seem to an outsider that the men take their women for granted, but the women don't view it that way. It's very hard to explain the gender equality that exists in a Syrian home. But it envelopes you and makes you feel loved and you can see the love between them. By feminist standards it should not be so, and yet they are happier than many other families I know who expressly defy patriarchal systems.



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Originally Posted by lightreading View Post
Something I'm curious about, though: I know that domestic violence usually starts with emotional abuse, but does anyone know if it goes both ways sometimes? Both people abusing each other instead of one victimizing the other?
Definately, and I have to say that women can be more emotionally abusive than men because we tend to be more in touch with our emotions than men. And to be real we're really good at doing it to each other as well.

If a woman hits a man is it okay for the man to hit her back?


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  #322  
Old July 10th, 2010, 6:15 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

No, not unless it is actually a dangerous situation--where there is a threat to the man's safety. Same if it was the other way around. I'm anti-violence anyway, and unless the man truly felt he was in danger, escalating the situation isn't always the best option.

Personally I don't think anyone should hit anyone. Because hearing about (and witnessing) violence makes me ashamed to be who I am. It's inhuman, a lot of what goes on.


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Last edited by lightreading; July 10th, 2010 at 6:33 pm.
  #323  
Old July 10th, 2010, 10:01 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Yes, I understand. The thing that bothers me is their seems to be this stereotype that if a woman, personally, favors traditional roles that somehow she is "not allowing" or "not being supportive of" of women's rights because it seemingly allows a patriarchal view to be the "norm". Almost as if the traditional woman is passively assisting in the continuance of a male dominated society.
Well I hope you can rest easy here, because I don't believe anyone would argue that this stereotype is a good one. But you also have to acknowledge that there are many fine lines in the world and it's not as simple as being pro- or anti-. For example, despite my opinions leaning strongly in the opposite direction, I'm sure occasionally uphold patriarchal traditions merely by coincidence or because it will benefit me in some kind of nontrivial way. What I'm saying is, nobody's so boring as to be 100% of anything, whether it's assisting male dominated society or trying to destroy it.

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I can't speak for Tenshi but equal mean equal. If men are being abused then they have the same rights as women. One you start giving preference to one before the other sometimes to the exclusion of the other it's inherently not equal. It doesn't mean that feminists don't care about men (although I think we can agree that those kinds of feminists are out there) rather it seems at it root to contradict itself.
But once again, who is giving anyone a preference? I am willing to say without even looking it up, that women are abused in domestic situations far far more than men are. So while you may dislike the perception that men get less attention, they're not getting most of the abuse in the first place. In other words, we need to focus where the trouble is, and that means paying more attention to women in domestic situations. I really would not lose any sleep if you still found this unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
And I think that very often society is taken for patriarchal when it is not, or at least not it the traditional sense of the word.

I have been lucky enough to marry into a Syrian family. And I had these stereotypes of middle easterners as a very patriarchal until I saw with my own eyes how much they revered their women and how their women seemed to gracefully blend togther their roles as wives and mothers with their roles outside the home, especially here in America. It's fascinating to watch. There seems to be an inherent respect for both genders in Syrian culture. Sometimes it might seem to an outsider that the men take their women for granted, but the women don't view it that way. It's very hard to explain the gender equality that exists in a Syrian home. But it envelopes you and makes you feel loved and you can see the love between them. By feminist standards it should not be so, and yet they are happier than many other families I know who expressly defy patriarchal systems.
With all due respect, that's one family, not all of Syrian culture. My family alone would not be very useful as a study of typical Americans because no one family is typical. I'm not suggesting I know anything about Syria or that you are wrong, but let's keep the perspective honest here. Also I don't understand what you meant about "by feminist standards it should not be so", because I feel like you're wandering back into the territory of describing a feminist stereotype and not feminism. Please elaborate.

And let's focus on what's really important here: how's the food? I think that's always the best part about meeting families from other cultures.

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Definately, and I have to say that women can be more emotionally abusive than men because we tend to be more in touch with our emotions than men. And to be real we're really good at doing it to each other as well.
At first glance I was inclined to agree with you, but I think really, men have just done a masterful job at pretending to be unemotional for a long time, when honestly, we're all wrecks. Just put us in front of a sporting even on TV and you'll see what I mean.


  #324  
Old July 10th, 2010, 10:15 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

"At first glance I was inclined to agree with you, but I think really, men have just done a masterful job at pretending to be unemotional for a long time, when honestly, we're all wrecks."
True.


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  #325  
Old July 10th, 2010, 10:17 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

When a man hits a woman, why do you think he did it?


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  #326  
Old July 10th, 2010, 10:23 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Because he can't control himself and needs therapy, same vice versa.


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  #327  
Old July 10th, 2010, 10:44 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
What I'm saying is, nobody's so boring as to be 100% of anything, whether it's assisting male dominated society or trying to destroy it.
Of course.

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
I am willing to say without even looking it up, that women are abused in domestic situations far far more than men are.
And herein lies the problem as I see it. Because men are deemed to not be in as much danger or not as susceptible it is easy to ignore their plight because "women need it more". As soon as you say the word "more" it immediately contradicts "equal". It would be like saying men need "less".

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
I really would not lose any sleep if you still found this unfair.
What is the implication in this?

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
With all due respect, that's one family, not all of Syrian culture. My family alone would not be very useful as a study of typical Americans because no one family is typical. I'm not suggesting I know anything about Syria or that you are wrong, but let's keep the perspective honest here.
Maybe my family is not normal or even typical of Syrian culture. What I am saying is that those traditional roles do not seem to have an impact on the quality of the family. So it makes you wonder how much of it is the actuality of these roles and the perceptions of theses roles. Intrinsically is there anything wrong with traditional roles? Not according to my family. But to others families the exact same circumstances may seem oppressive. So why should my family get this stigma that it is passively "aiding and abetting" oppressive behaviour? Because we are happy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
And let's focus on what's really important here: how's the food? I think that's always the best part about meeting families from other cultures.
I have never really come around to middle eastern food although I have developed a fondness hummus and toubouli (spelling is next on my list! ). Stuffed grape leaves are yummy but I've never figured out how some people think lamb and mint go together.



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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
At first glance I was inclined to agree with you, but I think really, men have just done a masterful job at pretending to be unemotional for a long time, when honestly, we're all wrecks. Just put us in front of a sporting even on TV and you'll see what I mean.
I should say that women are better able to express their emotions, which for men, as you rightly point out is very difficult.


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  #328  
Old July 10th, 2010, 10:46 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by lightreading View Post
When a man hits a woman, why do you think he did it?
Exactly. I doubt that women are more emotional than men. We all have emotions. Men and women are generally taught to attach different values to certain emotions and express them differently.

People conviently forget that anger is an emotion because it is one that men display more often than women do. Because emotions are thought to show weakness, people cannot seem to associate a "male" emotion with other emotions.


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  #329  
Old July 10th, 2010, 10:51 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
And herein lies the problem as I see it. Because men are deemed to not be in as much danger or not as susceptible it is easy to ignore their plight because "women need it more". As soon as you say the word "more" it immediately contradicts "equal". It would be like saying men need "less".
I'm not sure I understand. Women are abused more than men are, this is easily demonstrable. It follows then that men do need less help with domestic abuse. It's our response to domestic abuse that needs to be equal for both sexes, not the numbers of victims...


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Old July 10th, 2010, 10:54 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
It follows then that men do need less help with domestic abuse.
...because men are stronger....


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  #331  
Old July 10th, 2010, 11:30 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

"...because men are stronger...."
Not always.

"Exactly. I doubt that women are more emotional than men. We all have emotions. Men and women are generally taught to attach different values to certain emotions and express them differently.

People conviently forget that anger is an emotion because it is one that men display more often than women do. Because emotions are thought to show weakness, people cannot seem to associate a "male" emotion with other emotions."
I agree.


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  #332  
Old July 11th, 2010, 12:22 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
I'm not sure I understand. Women are abused more than men are, this is easily demonstrable. It follows then that men do need less help with domestic abuse. It's our response to domestic abuse that needs to be equal for both sexes, not the numbers of victims...
Indeed just because there are less (reported) men who might need these services it does not mean that they are not needed. Also there is the factor of a man not feeling like a 'man' if he admits he is getter abused by his partner, so the actual figures are probably higher than those reported. If the fact that there are men who are abused by their partners is more widely accepted then it may be seen as more acceptable for the men to look for help. Part of making it more widely know would be the set up men's charities which deal with domestic abuse- and with it the same services that women receive.


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  #333  
Old July 11th, 2010, 6:01 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Yes, I understand. The thing that bothers me is their seems to be this stereotype that if a woman, personally, favors traditional roles that somehow she is "not allowing" or "not being supportive of" of women's rights because it seemingly allows a patriarchal view to be the "norm". Almost as if the traditional woman is passively assisting in the continuance of a male dominated society.
No person who is truly feminist would ever support such a view (being judgemental toward so-called traditional roles). The whole point of feminism is that every women can choose her own path, make her own choice.

You may or may not know that in the women's movement in the late 60's's/early 70's in the U.S., it was those in the patriarchal structure (who were against women's rights) who used the media to portray feminists as anti-traditional, anti-mother/housewife, and anti-men. It was a clever way of trying to demonize those who supported freedom of choice for women in the workplace, and an effort to divide the female population against each other. Remnants of that attack campaign still live on in negative attitudes toward feminism. I can speak to this as someone who was involved in the women's rights movement at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron
No what it means is happy with a society where they feel comfortable in the knowledge that they can do "non-traditional roles" if they wish, but also to appreciate the differences in genders and be comfortable with that as well.
Thank you for the clarification.

I don't think society is there yet (in the U.S.). The choice, yes; acceptance & appreciation of non-traditional roles, not as much. There has been a great deal of change in gender roles since the 1950's, but there are still many issues under the surface in present day. I think acceptance and appreciation of differences/choice does improve with each successive generation, however, which makes me hopeful for the future.


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  #334  
Old July 11th, 2010, 5:28 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
I'm not sure I understand. Women are abused more than men are, this is easily demonstrable. It follows then that men do need less help with domestic abuse. It's our response to domestic abuse that needs to be equal for both sexes, not the numbers of victims...
What you are actual saying is equal in proportion then? But I would say that there is a disporportionate amount of help percentage wise. Take this microcosm of homelessness in Chicago (this is an old chart I'll see if I can find something more recent). The poverty rate is higher for women and yet it is mostly men who are homeless.

Quote:
From Article

"Men and women are regarded differently by society in general, and considerably more sympathy and support is extended to women, especially when they are rearing children. Not only is more help offered to women by society, but families are more protective of their female members. Intrakin support is more easily extended to females than to males"
Also being male seems to suggest that once he gets into difficulty it is even more difficult for him to get out. This chart seems to verify this.

Here's a pdf from 2007 in Alabama that shows that of their homeless are a whopping 70% men. If men were recieving the amount of help that they needed you would expect to see a far more balanced percentage. But we do not. And I think that you would find that indicative of nearly every service provided. Women simply have more options to help them. So there's no equality in treatment, from my pov.

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
It was a clever way of trying to demonize those who supported freedom of choice for women in the workplace, and an effort to divide the female population against each other.
And I would say it did a great job. We can see what led up to this point but how women treat women now is more the central point, imo. This article really hits the nail on the head to me. How do you find common ground here? For surely each side has it's points? How can you support women equally when faced with the realities that women face?

Quote:
We say men and women are free to swap roles, that greater involvement by men would solve some of the child-care problems, but unwritten rules of the workplace penalize fathers who take extended parental leave, and stay-at-home dads are considered weird. Experts tout the cognitive benefits to children of mothers staying at home while their children are very young, yet the solutions to the "child-care crisis" political leaders come up with mostly have to do with creating more government-subsidized and corporate day-care slots. We say teenage pregnancy is bad because young girls are too immature to handle the heavy responsibility of children, but every year thousands of teenage girls imported from abroad are given virtual full-time care of somebody's offspring. Feminists say they value sisterhood, but behind the scenes, stay-at-home mothers often criticize office-going moms for neglecting their kids, and working mothers often disparage their at-home counterparts for getting some sort of retro free ride. We say mothers on welfare should work, but when they do go to work, we give them dirty, crowded nurseries for their children, or nothing at all. Meanwhile, upper-middle-class moms who work are somehow blamed if tragedy strikes their child while they're at the office


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  #335  
Old July 11th, 2010, 5:49 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
What you are actual saying is equal in proportion then? But I would say that there is a disporportionate amount of help percentage wise. Take this microcosm of homelessness in Chicago (this is an old chart I'll see if I can find something more recent). The poverty rate is higher for women and yet it is mostly men who are homeless.
... what I'm saying is that we need to respond to domestic abuse the same way regardless of whether the victim is a man or a woman. Since most of the abuse cases out there affect women, then it's only logical that most of the help goes to women.

I have no idea what homelessness has to do with it at all. In fact your entire response is extremely confusing to me, so I'd love to know whether I missed something.

ETA

Now I get it. We were talking about domestic abuse. Help with domestic abuse. Women who have been victims of domestic abuse. Homelessness has no relevance at all and it doesn't have any effect on my argument.



Last edited by canismajoris; July 11th, 2010 at 5:52 pm.
  #336  
Old July 11th, 2010, 6:19 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Now I get it. We were talking about domestic abuse. Help with domestic abuse. Women who have been victims of domestic abuse. Homelessness has no relevance at all and it doesn't have any effect on my argument.
I understand what we are talking about. While I was looking for statistics the homeless ones came up first. Is it that difficult to imagine that there is a disparity in domestic abuse cases. If you look at the homeless rates if men were recieving equal treatment, which you insist happens, then the gender disparity wouldn't be so huge. I imagine you will find something similar with domestic abuse or any other issue based upon gender. Percentage wise the numbers don't appear to add up to me. But okay let's look at violence.

According to this article out of California pulblished this rate of violence toward males and females is roughly the same This spans decades no less.

Quote:
Posted by article

Burke, P. J., Stets, J. E., & Pirog-Good, M. A. (1988). Gender identity, self-esteem, and physical and sexual abuse in dating relationships. Social Psychology Quarterly, 51, 272-285. (A sample of 505 college students <298 women, 207 men> completed the CTS. Authors reports that they found "no significant difference between men and women in reporting inflicting or sustaining physical abuse." Specifically, within a one year period they found that 14% of the men and 18% of the women reported inflicting physical abuse, while 10% of the men and 14% of the women reported sustaining physical abuse.)
Note how the next quote says that women and men were equally likely to perpetrate violence upon the other. the women just got hurt more (for obvious reasons)

Quote:
Posted by article

Cascardi, M., Langhinrichsen, J., & Vivian, D. (1992). Marital aggression: Impact, injury, and health correlates for husbands and wives. Archives of Internal Medicine, 152, 1178-1184. (Examined 93 couples seeking marital therapy. Found using the CTS and other information that 71% reported at least one incident of physical aggression in past year. While men and women were equally likely to perpetrate violence, women reported more severe injuries. Half of the wives and two thirds of the husbands reported no injuries as a result of all aggression, but wives sustained more injuries as a result of mild aggression.)
And my favorite quote:

Quote:
Posted by article

Dutton, D. G. (2007). Female intimate partner violence and developmental trajectories of abusive families. International Journal of Men's Health, 6, 54-71. (A review article which concludes that female violence towards intimate male partners is just as severe and has similar consequences as male violence towards women. However, most criminal justice interventions and custody evaluations assume that males are more likely to be IPV perpetrators.)
The linked article has literally dozens of citations. So it seems that men do not get help because they are stronger and don't feel as threatened yet violent acts are performed against them every day. And if this article is to be believed in the same roughly the same quantities as women.


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  #337  
Old July 11th, 2010, 6:27 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Well, what do you think the relevance of that information is, flimsey? Do you consider it more of an issue than domestic abuse?


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  #338  
Old July 11th, 2010, 6:32 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Well, what do you think the relevance of that information is, flimsey? Do you consider it more of an issue than domestic abuse?
I'm not saying anything is more or less of an issue. What I am simply pointing out is that men simply do not get the same help in proportion to their numbers in how those issues effect them. Which seems to run counter to this thought that women are always at a disadvantage, when clearly, they not always are. Especially in a day and age where more help is available to them than to men.


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  #339  
Old July 11th, 2010, 6:44 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Because they need more help. It's not because people discriminate, it's because women are threatened much more.
It's dangerous to be female. It's tough to be a guy, because you can't express yourself without being called gay--your only emotions should be anger or hate. Kindness is a flaw in a male in our society.
But women face harassment and brutality most men never have to face. Didn't you read lightreading's first post? To be aggressive and a woman is considered improper. Doesn't that strike you as sick? because I think it's twisted--a way of forcing women to be submissive so they are more easily controlled.


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  #340  
Old July 11th, 2010, 7:52 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

I don't think anyone was claiming women don't need help, but that proportionally men do not have as much help as women i.e. women are closer to having the amount of help they need than men are. Maybe women are more at risk but that's not the issue, the issue is if men who are at risk are getting the help they need.


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