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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



View Poll Results: Snape's main feeling for James would be...
Loathing 25 15.53%
Contempt 16 9.94%
Envy 27 16.77%
Hatred 17 10.56%
Jealousy 59 36.65%
Regret 0 0%
You're evil for restricting the options and not even putting up my favourite. 17 10.56%
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  #41  
Old May 9th, 2008, 9:53 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
My interpretation is based on Snape's understanding that Harry was safe from Voldemort at the Dursleys, which is where he would be sent if he were to be kicked out of Hogwarts (if just temporarily). That together with the idea that Voldemort had not returned (pre-GoF), combined to allow Snape to feel that his demands and requests for Harry to be expelled would not place his life in danger.
Yes, but he also knew that Dumbledore needed to prepare him and needed him within his eyesight. I guess he did wish he could just get him out of his sight once and for all, in the whirl of rage, but seeing as keeping him alive and making him as much Voldemort-proof as they could was all Snape was living for, I think that ultimately he understood that he needed to do whatever was best for this end purpose, and that included keeping him around Dumbledore. I don't know, it just makes a lot of sense to me.


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  #42  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:23 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post

Fundamentally, imo, Snape did not wish to see any more of Harry!James than absolutely necessary and having him removed from the school would have been a victory over James (Harry) in his opinion. I think the conversation with the Minister of Magic was particularly telling because Snape believed that he was speaking to him privately and the Minister was the only person who could go over Dumbledore's head. Snape's even suggesting the idea of suspension "at least" to the Minister about Harry takes the matter outside of the realm of an 'empty threat' imo, because the Minister would not see it as a threat, but rather as a serious suggestion that Harry be at least temporarily removed. The Minister did not agree with Snape, but what if he had and had a suspension issued for Harry?
I don't think the minister was really taking him seriously anyway, he though he was bitter or something. However I don't think if he agreed that he would have intervened, after all it's not common practice for the ministry to intervene at Hogwarts as we can see on ootp, the ministry intervening was generally not seen as a good thing


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  #43  
Old May 9th, 2008, 11:17 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Yes, but he also knew that Dumbledore needed to prepare him and needed him within his eyesight. I guess he did wish he could just get him out of his sight once and for all, in the whirl of rage, but seeing as keeping him alive and making him as much Voldemort-proof as they could was all Snape was living for, I think that ultimately he understood that he needed to do whatever was best for this end purpose, and that included keeping him around Dumbledore. I don't know, it just makes a lot of sense to me.

Me too. I don't think Snape wanted Harry to actually leave Hogwarts at all. I just don't see why he would put him in that danger. Harry was safest at Hogwarts. Yes there was protections at Privet Drive but I still feel that being around Dumbledore was best and I believe Snape understood that.


  #44  
Old May 9th, 2008, 11:49 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view. I interpreted this portion: "I try to treat him like any other student. And any other student would be suspended - at the very least - for leading his friends into such danger..." to mean that Snape was recommending that Harry be suspended "at least" - with the at least signifying that something more, like expulsion, might be appropriate.

Imo, Snape was still unsure if Voldemort would return. He was trusting of Dumbledore's opinion in general, but imo, Snape was doubtful because his mark was dormant and that left him feeling like he might be wasting his time helping Dumbledore protect Harry from nothing. I feel this is supported by Snape ceasing to speak of expulsion altogether after GoF when his mark confirmed that Voldemort had indeed returned.
Dumbledore asks Snape for help after the Potters died and Snape agreed. While his mark may have been dormant, it was only a question of when and not if IMO, that Voldemort would return. The TPT reveals that Snape had promised to help Dumbledore and he stood by that promise IMO.

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
IMO, Snape took particular care to ensure that he could get away with what he did to Harry. Dumbledore has a pretty good idea of what goes on in the school (portraits?), and he would definitely have intervened if Snape had gone too far. We see that the level of Snape's mistreatment rises when he and Harry are together and unsupervised.
Had Snape really treated Harry poorly, I don't think Dumbledore would let him be IMO. I don't think Dumbledore would tolerate abuse of any sort in the School. Umbridge was the only exxception and that was because of the Ministry and also the fact Voldemort had come back and the war had begun. Snape was allowed to punish Harry for his various breaking of rules by detention, and I think Dumbledore understood about Snape's feelings for James, and allowed him to be.

Quote:
As I said on the previous thread, Snape tends to lie outright when it comes to James' actions. So, most likely, there were never any four on one fights in the first place.
In OOTP, Dumbledore explains it clearly; he says that he misunderstood Snape's feelings and wrongly read Argghhh! I forgot(bangs head because she left books at home); it's in OOTP in the Lost Prophecy; where he says something like some wounds run too deep for the healing (Not the exact words).

There were wounds which Dumbledore acknowledged Snape had because of James and Dumbledore said they were too deep to be healed.

Quote:
Could you explain this a bit more? I don't really understand your reaching the conclusion that there were any 'deeper emotions'. What exactly do you base it on? I do get what you mean about Snape being more comfortable with hating Harry though.
I don't think so; not now at least. Because I am unable to explain with canon why I feel this way. But that Snape had very complex emotions for Harry I feel is certain. The books tell us the story through Harry's eyes, and then in the TPT Harry is given the reasons for Snape's actions and his loyalties, which are very different from what Harry himself understood of Snape all those years. Because we see Harry's acceptance of those reasons as well IMO later.

Snape's feelings for Harry is a mixture of his feelings for James, Lily, his own thrown away chances, guilt that he handed over the Prophecy and love he had for Harry's mother. I think these emotions surfaced now and then all through the books, but what held Snape together ultimately was the love for Lily. That won over everything and IMO would not let him hate Harry or loathe him.

Quote:
But he could have been indifferent to him, treated him like any other student, and not singled him out.
Yes he could have; even should have; it was not Harry's problem what Snape did with his life; but I think that's where his past with Harry's parents and Godfther and his own biterness and guilt at his wrong choices came in the way. Snape acts despite himself and I really think he could not help himself regarding Harry.

Quote:
I respect your opinion, but I have to say that I never saw anything of the sort. I think that Jo did a good job of conveying that Snape loathed Harry. From the first moment that Snape sets eyes on Harry, it becomes clear to Harry that Snape dislikes him. After the first class, he's convinced that Snape hates him. Harry's reasons for reaching such a conclusion are clearly explained. The reader can feel the malice and hatred dripping off Snape's words, throughout the series. If that was concern, it was extremely well concealed. In fact, the author felt so compelled to conceal it, that she tells her fans the exact opposite, that Snape actually loathed Harry!
Well the author has made all kinds of statements where Snape's concerned IMO. If we did not have any of her statements about Snape, which are really Harry's statements (the way Harry looks at Snape before book7) I wonder how we would have argued Snape's case.


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  #45  
Old May 9th, 2008, 11:51 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Tonks View Post
Me too. I don't think Snape wanted Harry to actually leave Hogwarts at all. I just don't see why he would put him in that danger. Harry was safest at Hogwarts. Yes there was protections at Privet Drive but I still feel that being around Dumbledore was best and I believe Snape understood that.
I don't think it was neccersarily better safety wise for Harry to be near Dumbledore, but considering the prophecy it would be better for him to learn what he needed to defeat Voldemort. I think Snape probably did know the whole of the prophecy seeing as Dumbledore trusted him so much, so he would know it was important to stay at home


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  #46  
Old May 9th, 2008, 2:43 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

POA, Hermione's Secret
*Snape speaking with the Minister of Magic*

"Ah, well, Snape...Harry Potter, you know...we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned."

"And yet - is it good for him to be given so much special treatment? Personally I try to treat him like any other student. And any other student would be suspended - at the very least - for leading his friends into such danger. Consider, Minister: against all school rules - after all the precautions put in place for his protection - out of bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf and a murderer - and I have reason to believe he has been visiting Hogsmeade illegally, too-"

"well, well...we shall see, Snape, we shall see...the boy has undoubtedly been foolish..."


To me this scene actually tells us something quite profound about Snape, but I don’t know how to explain it without saying something that will sound rather strange & possibly controversial – so take a breath & read through it before you start to throw tomatoes

When I read this excerpt it reminds me of how I think Snape must have felt about the way Dumbledore handled the fall out from Sirius’s werewolf ‘prank’. I think he felt totally let down. From his point of view the popular kids had got away with putting his life is serious danger because they were favourites not just of the other students but of the teachers as well. I think that to him it seemed incredibly unfair.

Children need limits – James had been indulged by his parents & continued (from Snape’s PoV) to be indulged by the teachers at school. Now Snape sees Harry continually be indulged by other teachers and allowed to get away with continually breaking school rules.

Sometimes I think that the unfairness of both the situation’s he has been in and the unfairness of the way Harry is treated overwhelms him and galls him – which appears to be rather strange because the way he treats Harry often seems so unfair.

However I wonder if in some bizarre and somewhat inappropriate manner he was trying to even the balance somewhat? Harry was a celebrity, many people were awed just by the sight of him (especially in PS), he did get preferential treatment, even McGonagall who was normally a stickler for fairness was not immune from such behaviour.

I think seeing this would not have been easy for Snape & it would have been even harder for him that Harry, who looked so like his father, was being treated in such a similar fashion to James.


  #47  
Old May 9th, 2008, 3:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Nice post, kittling.

I agree that Harry is indulged by the adults in his life, and I too think that this reminds Snape horribly of James and his friends.
I have had similar thoughts about Snape trying to even things out. I think that it's a possibility. In the very first potions class, it's Harry's celebrity status Snape attacks: "Harry Potter-- our new celebrity", "Tut, tut. Clearly, fame isn't everything."

As time goes on, the things Snape says to Harry become less about Harry's fame and more about the James-like attributes Snape thinks Harry has inherited-- mainly arrogance, which can definitely come from being indulged.

However, in GoF, there are some quotes which really say to me that Harry's fame annoys Snape. When Snape is interrogating Harry about the stolen gillyweed and boomslang skin, he says to Harry:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoF
"I don't care how many times your picture appears in the papers. To me, Potter, you are nothing but a nasty little boy who considers rules beneath him."
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoF, and off the top of my head, lol
"Moody may have joined your little fan club, but I will not tolerate your behavior."
He seems to believe that the fame has gone to Harry's head. The way he says "to me" in the first quote says, IMO, that he feels he is alone in his opinion, that everyone else has been roped into Harry's....um...irresistible charms. In the second quote, he as much as admits this.


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  #48  
Old May 9th, 2008, 3:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Kittling, I don't find your view controversial at all.

That is pretty much how I interpreted Snape's reactions in that scene when I read PoA for the first time nine years ago. It was obvious to me that something was really, REALLY eating away at this bitter man. PoA only gave a partial answer as to why he had hated James Potter (and Sirius) so much, of course.

Yes, Snape is unfair to Harry in this scene with Fudge (and at other times too, of course). Harry is not a spoilt brat, and he doesn't, to my mind, have some of his father's earlier flaws either (although Harry can be arrogant, we never see him act abusively or like a bully). It is certainly not Harry's fault that Albus -- and even Minerva, on occasion -- treat him like the Wizarding World's Golden Boy. But, unfortunately, seen from Snape's POV (and, sure, I fully recognise that Snape's view is jaundiced!) it does look like Harry, the favoured favourite of Albus, gets a free pass card on his behaviour.


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  #49  
Old May 9th, 2008, 3:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Thanks Ignisia & Pearl Took – I guess the thought of using the word fair about Snape just made me jumpy

I have to admit that I find Snape’s tendency to give Harry a lot of detentions odd. It’s not that he gives Harry detentions, just that most of them seem to involve Harry & Snape being in the same room together alone. To me this indicates that Snape doesn’t just seen James in Harry – after all would he really want to spend time shut in a room with James? I can’t see it myself! He could go off knowing he’d set some really horrible detention and saviour the thought of it without punishing himself by sharing time with him, couldn’t he? But mostly he chooses detentions that put him in a room with Harry. Does that mean that in some way he can see Lily somewhere in there?


  #50  
Old May 9th, 2008, 4:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I have to admit that I find Snape’s tendency to give Harry a lot of detentions odd. It’s not that he gives Harry detentions, just that most of them seem to involve Harry & Snape being in the same room together alone. To me this indicates that Snape doesn’t just seen James in Harry – after all would he really want to spend time shut in a room with James? I can’t see it myself! He could go off knowing he’d set some really horrible detention and saviour the thought of it without punishing himself by sharing time with him, couldn’t he? But mostly he chooses detentions that put him in a room with Harry. Does that mean that in some way he can see Lily somewhere in there?
Well, an argument can be made that he wants to see Harry being miserable, to witness it, not just know it. If he does see James in him, it could feel like retribution to him.


  #51  
Old May 9th, 2008, 4:22 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Thanks Ignisia & Pearl Took – I guess the thought of using the word fair about Snape just made me jumpy
Methinks that can be an unfortunate side-effect of discussions about Snape ...

This is when I feel glad that I came so late to the fandom. I missed out on the, uh, more volatile arguments that I gather used to rage here.

Quote:
after all would he really want to spend time shut in a room with James?
Penance? Masochism? (Poor Harry! )

Quote:
But mostly he chooses detentions that put him in a room with Harry. Does that mean that in some way he can see Lily somewhere in there?
I think that is quite possible, actually ... even if Snape could not admit it to himself on a conscious level.


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  #52  
Old May 9th, 2008, 4:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
This is when I feel glad that I came so late to the fandom. I missed out on the, uh, more volatile arguments that I gather used to rage here.
They were fun!

Quote:
I think that is quite possible, actually ... even if Snape could not admit it to himself on a conscious level.
I really don't think he ever saw Lily in Harry, except in his dying moments. But I do feel he came to care for Harry (in a very deep-down-buried way and he hated it, too) for himself, perhaps just because his major occupation and the centre of his life was this kid.


  #53  
Old May 9th, 2008, 4:41 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Well, an argument can be made that he wants to see Harry being miserable, to witness it, not just know it. If he does see James in him, it could feel like retribution to him.
Or that he wants to inflict the misery himself, he can't get revenge on James so maybe Harry is the next best thing- Dumbledore seems to think this too when he talks about why he didn't give Harry occlumancy lessons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTP page 734-735 (UK Children's edition)
But I forgot- another old man's mistake- that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about you father- I was wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I really don't think he ever saw Lily in Harry, except in his dying moments. But I do feel he came to care for Harry (in a very deep-down-buried way and he hated it, too) for himself, perhaps just because his major occupation and the centre of his life was this kid.
I think if he saw Lily in Harry when he was dying that probably means that on some level always saw her there, maybe unconciously, or maybe he prefered to see James because then he could just hate (although that is probably too strong a word) Harry rather than seeing the person he'd lost, and even caused the death of, everytime he saw Harry. I'm sure the hate would be much easier to cope with


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Last edited by Lucybird; May 9th, 2008 at 5:00 pm.
  #54  
Old May 9th, 2008, 4:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Lucybird View Post
Or that he wants to inflict the misery himself, he can't get revenge on James so maybe Harry is the next best thing- Dumbledore seems to think this too when he talks about why he didn't give Harry occlumancy lessons. I'll add the quote once I find it
Dumbledore says something along the lines of underestimating the old feelings which were still there. Can't remember the specifics though

Quote:
I think if he saw Lily in Harry when he was dying that probably means that on some level always saw her there, maybe unconciously, or maybe he prefered to see James because then he could just hate (although that is probably too strong a word) Harry rather than seeing the person he'd lost, and even caused the death of, everytime he saw Harry. I'm sure the hate would be much easier to cope with
That's a very good point, seeing Lily all the time and being reminded, each time, of what he did would have been a torture. Perhaps he shut out whatever of her was in Harry in order to avoid the pain.


  #55  
Old May 9th, 2008, 5:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Dumbledore says something along the lines of underestimating the old feelings which were still there. Can't remember the specifics though
I added it now


Quote:
That's a very good point, seeing Lily all the time and being reminded, each time, of what he did would have been a torture. Perhaps he shut out whatever of her was in Harry in order to avoid the pain.
Add to that that it's probably easier for him to blame James for his loss of Lily than to blame himself, it is hard to admit to our mistakes. The only problem with this is that Snape did admit to his mistakes (at least in part) when he became spy for the order, if he still believed the Deatheater ideals then this wouldn't have happened


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  #56  
Old May 9th, 2008, 8:36 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Lucybird View Post
I think if he saw Lily in Harry when he was dying that probably means that on some level always saw her there, maybe unconciously, or maybe he prefered to see James because then he could just hate (although that is probably too strong a word) Harry rather than seeing the person he'd lost, and even caused the death of, everytime he saw Harry. I'm sure the hate would be much easier to cope with
I agree. Besides, it's easier to see it because he looks just like James, except for in the eyes. Legilimency on Harry must have been difficult; keeping eye contact had to remind him of Lily.


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Old May 9th, 2008, 8:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

This is from a while ago, but I saw it and had to comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
Snape's feelings for Harry are incredibly complex.
I actually completely disagree with that. I don't think that Snape's feelings for Harry changed one bit until the very, very end when he asked him to look at him. That was when he realized he was Lily's son. Before that, he just thought Harry was a photocopy of James. When Snape was protecting Harry, he did not do it at all because of his care for Harry. Remember when Dumbledore asked if he had become fond of Harry? Snape said- "Not for him." See? EVerything he was doing was for Lily, not Harry's sake.

I still think he absolutely hated Harry, until the very end. The only time he ever shows an emotion to him that isn't anger or meanness, it's during Occlumency lessons, and Snape has to be fair there otherwise Harry won't learn Occlumency and Snape would not be doing his job. I don't think he was ever even fair to Harry, ever. I found Snape's feelings for him to be the immature basis of a stupid schoolboy grudge. I found this line from SS/PS, after Harry learns from Quirrell that Snape was trying to save him-
SS/PS Chapter 17, The Man With Two FacesHarry looked up at the High Table at Snape, and knew that his feelings for Harry hadn't changed one jot.

I don't think Snape ever tried to see Harry as a good person, either. He didn't give him a chance from the first Potions lesson they had together, and he was just like that ever since. So I don't think that Snape's feelings for Harry were complex at all, moreover, they were very simple and laid out. All my opinion.


  #58  
Old May 9th, 2008, 8:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

But Harry's perception of Snape has always been wrong.


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  #59  
Old May 9th, 2008, 8:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by RWeasleysgirl View Post
But Harry's perception of Snape has always been wrong.
Only about which side he was working for, not about his feelings for Harry. I for one only saw canon that Snape loathed Harry, and none that he ever cared for him. Again, Snape only agreed to protect him becuase Dumbledore convinced him that it would honor Lily's memor. He didn't do anything for Harry.


  #60  
Old May 9th, 2008, 9:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I disagree, there was canon that Snape felt hatred towards him, but for at least that scene where Snape was so angry at Dumbledore for raising Harry "as a lamb to the slaughter", I saw definite proof in my own mind that a part of him also really cared about the kid.


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