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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4



 
 
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  #1501  
Old October 1st, 2013, 12:07 am
LadySylvia  Female.gif LadySylvia is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Both Harry and Ron were never exceptional book learners. They weren't stupid. But they were never at Hermione's level in that regard. And I doubt that he was capable of absorbing all of those books in the Room of Requirement or the school's library.

Again, I suspect that fans want to believe that Harry was a lot more exceptional than he really was, due to his role as the saga's protagonist.


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  #1502  
Old October 1st, 2013, 4:45 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by LadySylvia View Post
Both Harry and Ron were never exceptional book learners. They weren't stupid. But they were never at Hermione's level in that regard. And I doubt that he was capable of absorbing all of those books in the Room of Requirement or the school's library.

Again, I suspect that fans want to believe that Harry was a lot more exceptional than he really was, due to his role as the saga's protagonist.
The DA was a very different situation from class. Everyone in it was motivated to learn as much defensive magic as possible as they all believed (correctly) that Voldemort was back. Study habits under normal school conditions are, in my opinion, not even close for comparison. They were preparing to fight to stay alive, not get a good grade.


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  #1503  
Old October 2nd, 2013, 10:13 pm
LadySylvia  Female.gif LadySylvia is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
The DA was a very different situation from class. Everyone in it was motivated to learn as much defensive magic as possible as they all believed (correctly) that Voldemort was back. Study habits under normal school conditions are, in my opinion, not even close for comparison. They were preparing to fight to stay alive, not get a good grade.

Then they should have found someone more experienced than Harry to teach them. A great deal of Harry's experience came from others helping him out of a bad situation or possessing a wand that was just as powerful as Voldemort's ("SORCERER'S STONE" and "GOBLET OF FIRE"). I'm not saying that Harry was terrible at Defense Against the Dark Arts. But let's face it. The only thing he knew more than the others was producing a Patronus, thanks to Remus Lupin.

His mother's protection spell protected him during his confrontation with a Voldemort possessed Quirrell. Hell, even Hermoine's intelligence and Ron's chess skills helped him along the way. In the second book, Dumbledore helped him by sending the phoenix. Possessing a twin wand saved him from death at Voldemort's hand in the fourth book. And it was Barty Crouch Jr. that helped him during the Triwizard Tournament. The Order of the Phoenix saved him in the fifth book. And I know that I'm repeating myself, but the only thing he had learned ahead of his classmates was how to produce a Patronus. I could see why the other DA members chose him to teach them how to do the latter. But I still do not see why he was the one chosen to teach the other members of DA in other Defense Against the Dark Arts skills. I'm sorry, but I don't.


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  #1504  
Old October 2nd, 2013, 10:31 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by LadySylvia View Post
Then they should have found someone more experienced than Harry to teach them. A great deal of Harry's experience came from others helping him out of a bad situation or possessing a wand that was just as powerful as Voldemort's ("SORCERER'S STONE" and "GOBLET OF FIRE"). I'm not saying that Harry was terrible at Defense Against the Dark Arts. But let's face it. The only thing he knew more than the others was producing a Patronus, thanks to Remus Lupin.
Harry got the only perfect score on their 3rd year DADA test AND received an O on his DADA Owl (true, that was post OotP, but still...)

Also, on page 608 in the American version of GoF, it talks about the curses and hexes Harry, Ron and Hermione were learning to prepare for the last task of the Triwizard Tournament. Hermione states "at least we'll get top marks in Defense Against the Dark Arts," and Ron says "Good training for when we're all Aurors."

Signs that Harry is more qualified than just reputation.


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  #1505  
Old October 3rd, 2013, 12:02 am
LadySylvia  Female.gif LadySylvia is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Harry got the only perfect score on their 3rd year DADA test AND received an O on his DADA Owl (true, that was post OotP, but still...)

Also, on page 608 in the American version of GoF, it talks about the curses and hexes Harry, Ron and Hermione were learning to prepare for the last task of the Triwizard Tournament. Hermione states "at least we'll get top marks in Defense Against the Dark Arts," and Ron says "Good training for when we're all Aurors."

Signs that Harry is more qualified than just reputation.


You don't understand what I'm trying to say. The only thing Harry has learned more than the other members of the DA is how to produce a Patronus. I don't care if he had scored higher than the other DA members on Defense Against the Dark Arts at the end of his third year. That's irrelevant. In the end, they still know as much as he does by the beginning of their fifth year - with the exception of a Patronus. Just because Harry scored higher during their third year, didn't mean that the rest of them knew squat. And with the exception of producing a Patronus, George and Fred should have known more Harry, considering they were in their last year at Hogwarts and were talented magicians anyway.

And considering that Harry and Ron were never that hot when it came to learning from text books, I don't see why anyone would assume that Harry had learned a lot from those text book in such a short space of time. They only hit the books to find a way for Harry to deal with his second task. And again . . . it was Barty Couch Jr. - via Neville - who came up with a way for Harry to approach that task.


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Old October 3rd, 2013, 12:39 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by LadySylvia View Post
You don't understand what I'm trying to say. The only thing Harry has learned more than the other members of the DA is how to produce a Patronus. I don't care if he had scored higher than the other DA members on Defense Against the Dark Arts at the end of his third year. That's irrelevant. In the end, they still know as much as he does by the beginning of their fifth year - with the exception of a Patronus. Just because Harry scored higher during their third year, didn't mean that the rest of them knew squat. And with the exception of producing a Patronus, George and Fred should have known more Harry, considering they were in their last year at Hogwarts and were talented magicians anyway.

And considering that Harry and Ron were never that hot when it came to learning from text books, I don't see why anyone would assume that Harry had learned a lot from those text book in such a short space of time. They only hit the books to find a way for Harry to deal with his second task. And again . . . it was Barty Couch Jr. - via Neville - who came up with a way for Harry to approach that task.
Well, I disagree. It is mentioned more than once that Harry was learning extra jinxes and curses in GoF. He even jokingly threatens Fred and George at the end of the book.

And, Neville came up with something for the second task, not how to get through the maze in the 3rd task.


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  #1507  
Old October 3rd, 2013, 1:46 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Well, I disagree. It is mentioned more than once that Harry was learning extra jinxes and curses in GoF. He even jokingly threatens Fred and George at the end of the book.

If this is true, then doesn't that mean both Ron and Hermione learned these extra jinxes as well, since they were helping him with the research? And shouldn't Fred and George, along with Angelina Johnson, have learned more, considering they were two years ahead of the Golden Trio? Because if Rowling is using this as excuse to make Harry as a candidate for the only right person to each DADA during his fifth year, I'm not buying it. Talk about splitting hairs.


By the way, is Godric's Hollow merely a community for magic users in that part of Britain?


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Old October 3rd, 2013, 2:15 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by LadySylvia View Post
If this is true, then doesn't that mean both Ron and Hermione learned these extra jinxes as well, since they were helping him with the research? And shouldn't Fred and George, along with Angelina Johnson, have learned more, considering they were two years ahead of the Golden Trio? Because if Rowling is using this as excuse to make Harry as a candidate for the only right person to each DADA during his fifth year, I'm not buying it. Talk about splitting hairs.
When his skill and his reputation were combined, the rest of the DA decided he was the best man for the job.


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Old October 3rd, 2013, 2:38 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Just because someone learns how to throw a punch doesn't mean they can do it in the ring. Harry fought Voldemort and won 4 times by that point. He was clearly the best man for the job, and his hair was perfect. There is more to the Dada then learning.


  #1510  
Old October 3rd, 2013, 2:42 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by BurrowGhoul View Post
When his skill and his reputation were combined, the rest of the DA decided he was the best man for the job.

I'm quite aware that this is what happened. I just don't view it as good writing or convincing. Let's face it . . . Harry's reputation was bigger than his skills or experience. You'd think the DA would have realized this, once the classes had started. Producing a Patronus is one thing, but his other so-called skills? Not buying it.


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Old October 3rd, 2013, 6:31 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Revaunch View Post
Just because someone learns how to throw a punch doesn't mean they can do it in the ring. Harry fought Voldemort and won 4 times by that point. He was clearly the best man for the job, and his hair was perfect. There is more to the Dada then learning.
And each of those times, he survived due to dumb luck or someone else helping him.

Even in their final battle, it was again due to dumb luck Harry just happened to become the Master of the Elder Wand rather than any skills.


  #1512  
Old October 3rd, 2013, 6:48 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by LadySylvia View Post

By the way, is Godric's Hollow merely a community for magic users in that part of Britain?
It's a Muggle community with some magical folks also living there. Hogsmeade is the only all magic village in Great Britain.


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  #1513  
Old October 5th, 2013, 8:55 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
And each of those times, he survived due to dumb luck or someone else helping him.

Even in their final battle, it was again due to dumb luck Harry just happened to become the Master of the Elder Wand rather than any skills.
We each have our opinions. IMHO Harry was head and shoulders the best man for the job. Surviving life and death situations always involves dumb luck, but it takes true skill to live long enough to take advantage of it.


  #1514  
Old October 6th, 2013, 5:35 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

But him living long enough was also due to everyone around him putting himself on the line for him. It wasn't just his own survival ability (which we never saw much of at all).


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Old October 6th, 2013, 11:41 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

[quote=ShadowSonic;6079481]But him living long enough was also due to everyone around him putting himself on the line for him. It wasn't just his own survival ability (which we never saw much of at all).[/QUOTE



  #1516  
Old October 7th, 2013, 1:54 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
But him living long enough was also due to everyone around him putting himself on the line for him. It wasn't just his own survival ability (which we never saw much of at all).
In my opinion, we saw plenty of Harry's ability to survive. The choices he made to fight back despite knowing he was outmatched -- particularly in someone so young -- is, indeed, remarkable in itself. And by the end, Harry not only held the psychological edge in the duel with Voldemort, but was the better informed and focused of the two as well.

Everyone makes their own choices, whether that choice is to stand in front of your child to protect him from a curse or to leave a place of safety in a graveyard to stand and face your opponent. Lily gave Harry his first protection against Voldemort, but after that it was down to Harry to figure things out and decide if and how to fight going forward -- which he inarguably did.


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Old January 7th, 2014, 4:58 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

In CoS, "The Rogue Bludger," p 180, American version, they have just brought Colin Creevey into the hospital wing:

"Another attack," said Dumbledore. "Minerva found him on the stairs."

but further down the page

"Yes," said Professor McGonagall. "But I shudder to think... If Albus hadn't been on the way downstairs for hot chocolate-- who knows what might have--"

To me this reads that Dumbledore said that McGonagall found him, but McGonagall is saying that Dumbledore is the one who found him.


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Old January 7th, 2014, 11:04 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by BurrowGhoul View Post
In CoS, "The Rogue Bludger," p 180, American version, they have just brought Colin Creevey into the hospital wing:

"Another attack," said Dumbledore. "Minerva found him on the stairs."

but further down the page

"Yes," said Professor McGonagall. "But I shudder to think... If Albus hadn't been on the way downstairs for hot chocolate-- who knows what might have--"

To me this reads that Dumbledore said that McGonagall found him, but McGonagall is saying that Dumbledore is the one who found him.
Hmm I agree that you are interpreting it properly. Perhaps while on patrol at night McGonagall came across Dumbledore and decided to follow him and talk about something. Then while they were going down the stairs she spotted Colin, but the reason they were on that stairwell was because of Dumbledore...

It is stretching it but could be what happened.


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Old January 7th, 2014, 11:24 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I think it could also be that Minerva found Colin, but she felt that it was Albus's timely appearance that made the situation safe. She shudders to think what might have happened had Albus not arrived, but that may just suggest that she thought Albus was more than the match for the monster than she. It's a bit of an odd statement, though, considering she is such an accomplished witch. But it is clear throughout the text that she admires Dumbledore's skill and power, and also that Dumbledore's presence more or less protects in any situation (e.g. 'the only one he ever feared'). It is similarly odd that she would have been so relieved that Dumbledore just happened to be coming down the stairs: she could have used the Patronus to alert him (theoretically, given that we see the Patronus communication used in GoF. But perhaps JKR hadn't thought of that at this point, thus McGonagall's dependence upon coincidence). But perhaps that method went out of practice after the first war and simply didn't occur to her, hence her relief in Dumbledore's timely appearance.

So I think explanations could be made for McGonagall's seeming contradiction, though it is still a bit odd and certainly reads a bit more as if Dumbledore says one thing and McGonagall says another. A nice catch!


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  #1520  
Old January 8th, 2014, 5:29 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I think it could also be that Minerva found Colin, but she felt that it was Albus's timely appearance that made the situation safe. She shudders to think what might have happened had Albus not arrived, but that may just suggest that she thought Albus was more than the match for the monster than she. It's a bit of an odd statement, though, considering she is such an accomplished witch. But it is clear throughout the text that she admires Dumbledore's skill and power, and also that Dumbledore's presence more or less protects in any situation (e.g. 'the only one he ever feared'). It is similarly odd that she would have been so relieved that Dumbledore just happened to be coming down the stairs: she could have used the Patronus to alert him (theoretically, given that we see the Patronus communication used in GoF. But perhaps JKR hadn't thought of that at this point, thus McGonagall's dependence upon coincidence). But perhaps that method went out of practice after the first war and simply didn't occur to her, hence her relief in Dumbledore's timely appearance.

So I think explanations could be made for McGonagall's seeming contradiction, though it is still a bit odd and certainly reads a bit more as if Dumbledore says one thing and McGonagall says another. A nice catch!
That sounds feasible. Perhaps Dumbledore couldn't sleep, and under the circumstances, would of course alert Minerva to his whereabouts -- probably by Patronus since the hour was late. She may have decided to join him, and found Colin on the way.


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