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A Song of Ice and Fire



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  #461  
Old September 28th, 2013, 7:28 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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I don't know what Tyrion would have told her that would have lead to a solution to all the problems in Mereen though. However I do agree that if they meet (I hope so! That scene in the fighting pits was such a tease!) this would probably be the role GRRM assigns him. That said, him becoming a head of a dragon seems a bit much. I'd also be interested in how he would gain that much trust from Dany (or from her dragons for that matter).
I would relish some interaction between Daenerys and Tyrion. I don't think he will become a head of the dragon. However, if Daenerys believes him about his desire for revenge, she could see him as an ally. An ally she barely trusts, perhaps, but then, she is used to allies she can barely trust.

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Anyone who wants the iron throne could be called entitled. I've only heard people criticizing Dany and Cersei over it though.
Good point. However, this attitude fits with the pseudo-Medieval setting - where kingship was believed to be a God-given right. Dany has a legitimate claim to the throne, though. I think Cersei is criticised more for making excuses for her sociopath son, and for providing the sadistic Qyburn with a place to torture victims in privacy, and sometimes even providing him with victims.

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I dunno about that. Stannis is cold are cares more about the justice of the final purpose than the awful things he has to do to get there imo. Though we don't get his point of view, so who knows how much he struggled with the idea of killing his brother or pushing through the snowstorms. He seems cut off from the people imo.
Stannis seems to want to do what is right - he is the only one who is as interested in protecting the realm as he is in winning the realm. However, he is too rigid and unbending to rule, perhaps, and I think he places too much importance on Melisandre's R'hllor and on burning people alive.

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This is because she genuinly wants to be a good ruler who is good to the people who cannot defend themselves imo. I feel like she's sacrificed more than any other potential ruler in the series (she locked up her own children!).
I agree. Daenerys wants to do what is right. However, challenging wrongdoing as she did is always going to bring a backlash.

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I think the main issue I have with the idea of Jon's body not dying (I do think he warged into ghost) is that not only was he stabbed repeatedly - he was surrounded by lots of people who wanted him dead. The only person who really noticed Arya was Sandor, and we were told that Brienne did have the option of saving herself if she changed her mind. I also think that the prologue with the warging was put there as a hint that this was going to be Jon's fate.
I'm not sure about that. There has been such a mystery about Jon's true parentage, so many hints and suggestions, and if Jon were dead, or living in Ghost's body and unable to communicate with others -what does that all come to? Especially if Lyanna and Rhaegar were his parents. Perhaps it was just a massive red herring, but I've always got the impression that Jon's true parentage was significant.

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On another side note, there was an interesting article a couple of months ago about strong women in scifi and fantasy stories. They were asking different people why they did this. (Joss Whedon's answer: "Because you are still asking this question!" ) Martin was noted for writing a range of female characters, from the very weak to the very strong. Martin's response for why he did it? He paused and then said: "Because women are people?"


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  #462  
Old January 19th, 2014, 11:17 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Good point. However, this attitude fits with the pseudo-Medieval setting - where kingship was believed to be a God-given right. Dany has a legitimate claim to the throne, though. I think Cersei is criticised more for making excuses for her sociopath son, and for providing the sadistic Qyburn with a place to torture victims in privacy, and sometimes even providing him with victims.
Cersei also feels like she has god-given rights: she views the Lannisters as being as high as any kings, after all. She also views herself as being her father's "true son": i.e., she thinks that she best understands how he operated. In truth, she's very wrong: she sees only the "stick" from her father's carrot and stick operations, and she is completely incapable of grasping subtlety.

Really, that is what the Feast of Crows story was: people trying to be someone that they really were not. All of the protagonists (85 at last count!) were doing this in one way or another. Both Cersei and Jaime were trying to be Tywin Jr. As their aunt tells Jaime, Tyrion was the one who was truly Tywin's son in this sense.

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Stannis seems to want to do what is right - he is the only one who is as interested in protecting the realm as he is in winning the realm. However, he is too rigid and unbending to rule, perhaps, and I think he places too much importance on Melisandre's R'hllor and on burning people alive.
Stannis is a textbook case of the difference between moral and ethical. He is an incredibly moral man according to the moral code he uses. He is, however, so inflexible as to be very unethical because of it: he will hurt and kill because his moral code demands it, and although it pains him, he honestly thinks that it is dishonorable to do any other act. (The conflict between moral and ethical codes underlies much of Martin's stuff.)

Put another way, if Stannis was one of the true test subjects in the Milgram experiment, he would have been one of the first to electrocute the fake subjects!

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I agree. Daenerys wants to do what is right. However, challenging wrongdoing as she did is always going to bring a backlash.
Daenerys is one of the most ethical of the protagonists, and much of that has to do with the fact that she was sold like a hunk of meat into marriage. This coupled with other things has really developed her sense of empathy. That cannot be understated in Martin's universe: there is no real "good" or "evil" but there are those who empathize with the plights of others (Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Arya), those who do not (Cersei, Sansa), and those who become empathetic after much hardship (Jaimie).

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I'm not sure about that. There has been such a mystery about Jon's true parentage, so many hints and suggestions, and if Jon were dead, or living in Ghost's body and unable to communicate with others -what does that all come to? Especially if Lyanna and Rhaegar were his parents. Perhaps it was just a massive red herring, but I've always got the impression that Jon's true parentage was significant.
You are absolutely right: Jon's parentage will be critical. After all, that was Martin's final question to Benioff & Weiss before agreeing to let them do the show: when they answered correctly, he decided that they were good enough to entrust!

Yes, Jon was stabbed, and he almost certainly received mortal wounds. However, Melissandre's magic will be strong enough to heal him, although possibly at a terrible cost.


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Last edited by Wimsey; February 17th, 2014 at 9:26 pm.
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  #463  
Old February 17th, 2014, 7:40 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Has anybody read The Princess and the Queen... the new novella detailing the original Dance of the Dragons? It is written in the persona of an Archmaester of the Citadel. I'll need to check but I'm pretty sure this is one of the books Tyrion has read during the course of the series.

I finished it this evening, and my guess is that the novella provides information that will be significant in the remainder of the series.


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  #464  
Old February 23rd, 2014, 10:06 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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I finished it this evening, and my guess is that the novella provides information that will be significant in the remainder of the series.
I finally read that! It's not much of a story, being just a faux history. However, I suspect that there are going to be many strong parallels between this and what happens in Winter and Spring (in the improbable event that Martin ever gets to Spring, anyway).

This does leave open some interesting possibilities:
Spoiler: show
many dragons died, but some just disappeared; are there some more dragons out there in the world?


One of the things that will be interesting is going to be the Aegon vs. Daenerys dynamic in the next two books. When we first saw Danny's prophecy, most of us assumed that the "mummer's dragon" meant a fake dragon: but in Dance, we learned that this refers to the Dragon that the Mummer truly has been supporting over the years. That actually made a ton of sense given Varys seemingly contradictory actions: he both endangered and saved Daeny and her brother over the years, which now seems like a very smart tactic if your real goal is to create a smokescreen for a 3rd Targaryen.

I would not be surprised if The Princess and the Queen provides some foreshadowings as to how this will transpire!

On a side note, we have begun our now annual binge-watching of Game of Thrones to get ready for the TV season. I suspect that Martin will get Winter out before the series gets there (which probably will be in 3 years, if they intertwine Crows and Dance and do that over two seasons). However, I don't see any chance of Spring making it out in time. Indeed, I wonder if we'll get Spring only on television.


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  #465  
Old March 23rd, 2014, 5:39 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Martin released another chapter of Winds of Winter the other day. It's a Tyrion POV chapter, set at the onset of a really big battle: and a company about to choose sides. (Suffice it to say that this company has had issues with this!) It is available with the World of Ice and Fire app for smartphones and tablets (e.g., iPhones & iPads in my household!)

It's an early chapter of the book, clearly, so it's almost incapable of spoiling anything: really, it's a wonderful teaser to get you salivating for what is to come. It should appeal to the "who would beat who?!?!" aspect of fanboyism: when we left Meereen in Dragons, a huge battle was about to break out: and in this chapter a party that we last so closing in on Meereen now is at Meereen.

This is an early stab in the dark, but this chapter hints strongly at one thing that got implied by Dragons: the tide is turning, and possibly in huge ways. Martin's SOI&F stories are always about internal conflicts: it is both right and wrong to do X depending on how you look at it. This one chapter alone makes me wonder if the conflict is: on who's side am I going to be? Alternatively, it might be just about changing tides. Tyrion in Dragons is a wreck of a man: he's bitter to the point of derangement, and understandably so. We were seeing some rebound towards the end of Dragons, but this one chapter makes me think that we'll see a full rebound (albeit with some permanent psychological scars) in Tyrion. I.e., the Tide is Turning for the war, but also for the protagonists' personal world views.

I fully admit that this is a big stab based on only one chapter, but the other released chapter (with Asha as POV) is consistent with this.


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  #466  
Old March 29th, 2014, 11:31 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

And Martin keeps piling it on for us! He just released an Arya chapter on his website. What is amusing is the part that she is playing in her mummer's troupe.

This does further corroborate my inference above: the tide is changing a little bit here, too.


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  #467  
Old June 4th, 2014, 4:54 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Martin's long-time editor now thinks there might be an eighth book, given that the series was originally proposed as a trilogy anything's possible.

Given she's been working on the series for 20 years since it was a five-page outline and 100 pages of book, she may be right.

http://www.salon.com/2014/06/03/geor..._fantasy_epic/


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  #468  
Old July 11th, 2014, 6:24 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Martin's long-time editor now thinks there might be an eighth book, given that the series was originally proposed as a trilogy anything's possible.
They seem to have backed away from that possibility: and that's good, because there is very little chance that Martin will live long enough to complete three more books.

I recently read that Martin has employed an unusual but extremely clever tactic of having one of his biggest fans (one of the people who runs the Westeros site) be a "continuity" editor. Martin realizes that the fans pay much more attention to details than he does: and he also knows that fans will turn anything into a conspiracy theory. By his example, if he screws up and writes about someone's blue eyes when they were described as having brown eyes earlier, then there are a dozen "theories" about impostors, Others possessing, etc. immediately!

This is also germane because it dovetails with the fact that the TV series is about to get ahead of the books: indeed, for one character at least (Sansa), the TV show has gotten ahead of the books. Martin has said that:
Spoiler: show
even though she has not done so in the books yet, Sansa actually is starting to learn and will become a player in the game.
The "continuity editor" recently let slip that there are Sansa chapters that are going to be very controversial. There are multiple ideas, several of which are not mutually exclusive. One of them is that Sansa, who always saw herself as the "good queen" in the fairy tales, is actually going to heed Cersei, who basically works under the premise that the "evil queen" is the only one who knew what she was doing. (Indeed, Sansa and Cersei offer great examples of how one person's "good" is another person's "evil"!) This would disturb some readers for two reasons: one, Sansa is supposed to be "good" whereas Cersei is "evil," and, two, Cersei openly lectures Sansa about how to use sex as a weapon. That gets doubly controversial because many readers apply their own morals regarding "teen sex" even though Westeros is a very traditional society in which the concept of adolescence is nonexistent: at menarche, a female goes from girl to woman, and that is that. (We often forget that the whole concept of teens being "emotionally immature" is very new: indeed, the concept of "emotional maturity" is fairly new!)

For those watching the TV show,
Spoiler: show
Sansa's descent down the stairs as Maleficent Stark at her close of Season 4 would seem to strongly corroborate that idea.
Well, well: I didn't know that Sansa had it in her! I almost look forward to reading her chapters if only in hope of reading a Sansa-thought that isn't blitheringly inane!

And this would just be a little more evidence: the tide is turning.


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  #469  
Old July 13th, 2014, 6:17 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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I recently read that Martin has employed an unusual but extremely clever tactic of having one of his biggest fans (one of the people who runs the Westeros site) be a "continuity" editor. Martin realizes that the fans pay much more attention to details than he does: and he also knows that fans will turn anything into a conspiracy theory.
Stephen King has a similar arrangement using Rocky Wood's 6000 page The Complete Guide to the Works of Stephen King for research and personally having his assistance while writing Doctor Sleep.

He also used a concordance compiled by his secretary when writing the latter stages of the Dark Tower series.

But the thing about fans is true which is why actors and writers often are flummoxed by fans spouting quotes at them from works done years before and long forgotten by the artists.


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  #470  
Old July 13th, 2014, 6:10 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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But the thing about fans is true which is why actors and writers often are flummoxed by fans spouting quotes at them from works done years before and long forgotten by the artists.
One of my favorites along these lines is from Sylvester McCoy,who played Doctor Who from 1987-1989: he claims that fans would ask him what the Doctor had been thinking in episodes done 20 years before he took the role!

Thinking back just 7 years ago, weren't there a few "outstanding issues" that Harry Potter fans saw in the books that were almost certainly just mental typos by Rowling?

And, of course, the greatest send-up of this was by the Simpsons, in the episode where Homer becomes the voice of Poochy on the Itchie and Scratchie show. (William Shatner's 1986 Saturday Night Live appearance is a close second!)

That written, the blue rose on the Wall was probably not such a mistake…


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  #471  
Old July 13th, 2014, 6:21 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Thinking back just 7 years ago, weren't there a few "outstanding issues" that Harry Potter fans saw in the books that were almost certainly just mental typos by Rowling?
One of the biggest being the great Mark Evans controversy which was nothing more than fans reading way too much into the text.


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  #472  
Old July 15th, 2014, 5:36 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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One of the biggest being the great Mark Evans controversy which was nothing more than fans reading way too much into the text.
Yeah, a fan would have caught that, almost certainly. And, of course, the younger Creevey brother turning up at Hogsmeade when too young would have been flagged: didn't people think that he must have been a polyjuiced someone-important?

I cannot think of any obvious examples for SoI&F that fit here: most of the "silly" ideas come from readers confusing subjectivity used for character-development with plot details. For example, the "Jeyne Westerling was pregnant with Robb's child and in-hiding" idea, which is "supported" almost entirely by the fact that Catelyn viewed Jeyne as having good hips for bearing children whereas Jaime viewed her as thin-hipped. It must be a different girl! Or it's that Jaime's idea of feminine beauty is his sister, who (in her late 30's and having borne 3 kids) doesn't have teenage hips anymore. Indeed, I remember that many readers hypothesized that Cersei was pregnant again because she was complaining that her dresses didn't fit her (and, of course, blaming her laundress for shrinking them!) Again, that was just to inform us that Cersei was gaining weight but (true to her character) was blind to it.

Many more of the silly Harry Potter ideas fell into this camp. For example, Dumbledore must have been Slughorn in disguise because he didn't instantly correct Harry with "Professor Snape" when Harry exploded upon learning that Snape had betrayed his parents: because people never forget themselves when suddenly learning that a major cat is out of the bag. Or that something was up with Hermione because she acted so out-of-character regarding Ron in Prince: because who ever heard of a sorely infatuated teenager behaving oddly due to the source of her/his infatuation?!?! Similarly, Slughorn's inability to remember Ron's name was criticized as a constant typo! That written, I suppose that a fan of that ilk would have asked Rowling if that really was appropriate behavior, and simply gotten an affirmative.


EDIT: By the way, we count Sean Bean among those who doesn't think that Ned Stark is Jon Snow's father!


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Last edited by Wimsey; July 19th, 2014 at 5:00 am.
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  #473  
Old September 3rd, 2014, 10:05 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but for those who need a fix there's a new Westeros novella in Dangerous Women edited by Martin and Gardner Dozois.

And there's a few others included in assorted anthologies.


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  #474  
Old January 3rd, 2015, 7:06 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

So: any bets on whether we will get to read Winter before HBO shows Winter in 2016?


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  #475  
Old February 1st, 2015, 11:52 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Well, winter is coming. We'll get it eventually.


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  #476  
Old February 6th, 2015, 7:44 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

As a latecomer who is just now beginning A Feast for Crows, I am okay with the 6th installment being delayed so I have time to finish the preceding two! Though I have heard that such a delay would put the TV show in a tight spot for source material (outside my realm, as I haven't watched any of the show).


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Old February 7th, 2015, 6:44 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Martin's original plot synopsis for the SoI&F (particularly Game of Thrones) has just been posted. It's very interesting in two ways. One, he clearly changed a LOT of the basic plot lines between then and when he completed Thrones. (What he plans for just Thrones becomes Thrones/Clash/Storm.) However, the basic story clearly is the same: it was all about personal conflict in beliefs and loyalties. The end game almost certainly is the same, but GRRM very much changed the route to it.

The final lines are redacted. However, there is one thing that slipped through: the fact that Jon is thought to be Ned Stark's son causes him some problems, but that those are solved when his true parentage is revealed in the final book (which now is divided into Winter & Spring).


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  #478  
Old February 10th, 2015, 10:59 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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So: any bets on whether we will get to read Winter before HBO shows Winter in 2016?
They're not showing Winter next year are there? I didn't think this one season was both Feast and Dance but a mix of the two, which would finish next season.


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  #479  
Old February 15th, 2015, 6:13 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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They're not showing Winter next year are there? I didn't think this one season was both Feast and Dance but a mix of the two, which would finish next season.
No, they are doing Crows/Dragons this year. It really is one story in two books, after all. Quite frankly, most of the trimming should have been in the books. 2016 will be Winter, and 2017 will be Spring. (HBO is actually very unhappy with Martin about this: when they agreed to do this in 2007, he had told him that the series would be completed by 2017.)

It seems like they are:
  1. Cutting the Iron Islands stuff. (And there was much rejoicing!)
  2. Telling Jaime's "Watch me be Tywin II" story in Dorne instead of the Riverlands (which increases the chance of our staying awake);
  3. Amalgamating Arianne & Quentyn into their brother Trystane. (Between the two of them, they made for about one interesting protagonist, so that seems smart);
  4. Cutting the Griff teaser (which presumably will be introduced next year);
  5. Keeping Davos & Sam at the Wall (where their stories can be told just as well as on their separate journeys)

The stuff at the Wall is being reset so that it will be on the road, it seems.

Cersei's, Theon's, Tyrion's, Arya's and Daeny's plot lines seemingly will be the same as in the books, albeit trimmed of extraneous things (such as running into supposedly dead Princes). If the trailer is any indication, then the season will be telling the same story of people trying to be greater than they are/were/perceived to be that the books tell.

Bran isn't going to be on this year: I guess Tree God lessons make boring TV. (Actually, I could have told them that!)

Sansa's plotline for the year will be the stuff from Winter, so we'll get our first taste of it there. There are hints that Arya's first Winter chapter is being done this year, too.


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Last edited by Wimsey; February 16th, 2015 at 2:19 am.
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Old January 5th, 2016, 1:17 am
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Wimsey  Male.gif Wimsey is offline
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Completley un-Shocking non-news! Martin has thrown in the towel on getting the 6th book out before the 6th season. At this point, I doubt that it gets published before the series is complete.


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