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The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 24th, 2007, 3:25 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Property owners tend to be more educated

they often have more at stake economicly.
It's the poor and uneducated who most need the protections which derive from a voice in the political process.


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  #22  
Old August 24th, 2007, 4:14 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
It's the poor and uneducated who most need the protections which derive from a voice in the political process.
But do they vote? having rights to and using using those rights are two totally differant things. We are controlled by those who do vote. Which segments of the population dose vote? if the poor and under eduacted don't vote and only those who own land do vote.
The poorer the voter turn out usually favors one party over an other then higher voter turn out. So some election campaigns are very dull for poor voter turn out at the polls. Meaning they don't run the campaign to the average voter but to some elite group of voters far away from the issues of concerns to the average voter. but on average do landowner vote more then non landowners? who has a higher turn out at the polls landowners or non landowners? are landowner more likely to vote or have higher % of voter turn out?



Last edited by Youdan; August 24th, 2007 at 5:02 am.
  #23  
Old August 24th, 2007, 5:10 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

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Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
But do they vote?
Irrelevant. Having the right alone is power. Like nuclear arms, having them gives a nation clout whether they use them or not.


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  #24  
Old August 24th, 2007, 6:25 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
But do they vote? having rights to and using using those rights are two totally differant things. We are controlled by those who do vote. Which segments of the population dose vote? if the poor and under eduacted don't vote and only those who own land do vote.
The poorer the voter turn out usually favors one party over an other then higher voter turn out. So some election campaigns are very dull for poor voter turn out at the polls. Meaning they don't run the campaign to the average voter but to some elite group of voters far away from the issues of concerns to the average voter. but on average do landowner vote more then non landowners? who has a higher turn out at the polls landowners or non landowners? are landowner more likely to vote or have higher % of voter turn out?
Does it matter if they vote? The constitution grants them the right whether they coose to act upon it or not.

I don't think it should matter which group has a higher turn-out. Not giving somebody the right to vote is unconstitutional.


  #25  
Old August 24th, 2007, 2:58 pm
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

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Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
Then as they are taxed more, why aren't they represented more?
Are you serious?
There are over 60 lobbyists for every congressperson. Said lobbyists spent over 2.5 billion for freebies for every congressperson.
The question you need to ask is when does anyone in congress actually listen to you, the average bloke?

Now to readress the original topic; The latest government statistics show that the U.S. home ownership rate reached 69.2 percent in the second quarter of 2004. And for the first time ever, 50.6% of minority Americans own their own homes.
That was then.
The figures have yet to be released, but the foreclosure rate has been incredible this year. (6.74% And the Subprime Mortgage industry has completely collapsed)

Just how many Americans is it acceptable to disenfranchise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
Landowners are taxed much more than non-landowners are.
Not big business.
The top corporate tax rate in the 1950s was 52%. By 1996, it was 35%. Add the variety of corporate deductions and it's even less. (such as the essentially unlimited deduction for interest payments and the carryover deduction of losses, both of which fuel mergers and takeovers. Also foreign tax provisions that allow multinational companies to move income around the world to escape payment of taxes.)


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  #26  
Old August 24th, 2007, 3:30 pm
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Thats ridiculous. Landowners dont have any more right than others. Its basically saying rich people can vote and everyone else shouldnt have a say in how their country is run. Shouldnt they be encouraging more people to vote rather than trying to limit the number? Its bad enough that not enough people in the US vote as it is...

Quote:
Anyone who is a legal citizen in the States, over eighteen, has every right to vote. Simple as that.
Agreed.


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  #27  
Old August 24th, 2007, 3:45 pm
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
Then as they are taxed more, why aren't they represented more? Landowners are taxed much more than non-landowners are. Of course there are plenty of people that wouldn't be allowed as they actually don't pay taxes, but are paid for living here.
Then why not simply look at how much tax a person pays, rather than what land they own? A renter with a huge salary generally pays more tax than a retiree living on her own tiny plot of land.

If you are going to give people a vote based on how much money they contribute then after a while these people will use their influence to contribute less and less and then eventually no one will contribute anything.


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  #28  
Old August 25th, 2007, 1:50 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

A system like that would be discriminating towards the people who suffer from the government and their system. A lot of people who don't own anything or are socially inferior are that because of the system and when they have the feeling that another government can do it better and remedy, then they should get the opportunity to vote. To deny those people the right to vote, comes close to undemocratic voting system. Not close it is undemocratic.


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  #29  
Old August 25th, 2007, 2:13 am
Youdan Youdan is offline
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

like stock voting. The more stocks you own the more votes you get. but each person starts with one vote but can get more voting power if the own land or the higher their incomes or higher taxes they pay, the more votes they get.
a sliding scale the more a person pays in taxes the more votes they get.
0-1,000 paid in taxes one vote
1,001 to 10000 paid in taxs 2 votes
10,001 to 50,000 3 votes to a maxinum of 5 votes per person.
Since they pay more to run the government shouldn't they have greater say in how the government is run?



Last edited by Youdan; August 25th, 2007 at 2:40 am.
  #30  
Old August 25th, 2007, 2:19 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
Then as they are taxed more, why aren't they represented more? Landowners are taxed much more than non-landowners are.
But they aren't taxed because they own land, but because they have more assets and can afford to pay more taxes. If the system works correctly, they shouldn't suffer from taxes any more than poorer people do. If I have ten cupcakes and give away two, the ratio is the same as if I had five and gave away one.

And a lot of legislation is geared towards people who don't own land or pay as much in taxes. For instance, while everyone deserves a say in how welfare is run, especially since most working adults pay taxes that might support that system, the people who will ultimately be most affected by welfare are people who don't pay as much in taxes and probably don't own property.


  #31  
Old August 25th, 2007, 2:27 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

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Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
like stock voting the more stocks you own the more votes you get. but each person starts with one vote but can get more voting power if the own land or the higher their incomes or taxes paid, the more votes they get.
So OK in our democratic world Elections and votings are and should be:
1. Universal
2. Free
3. Equally
4. Secret

To give other people more rights to vote or count their votes in another way like other people goes against a lot of those principles.


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  #32  
Old August 25th, 2007, 2:51 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
But they aren't taxed because they own land, but because they have more assets and can afford to pay more taxes. If the system works correctly, they shouldn't suffer from taxes any more than poorer people do. If I have ten cupcakes and give away two, the ratio is the same as if I had five and gave away one.

And a lot of legislation is geared towards people who don't own land or pay as much in taxes. For instance, while everyone deserves a say in how welfare is run, especially since most working adults pay taxes that might support that system, the people who will ultimately be most affected by welfare are people who don't pay as much in taxes and probably don't own property.
But the tax system dosen't work like that.. if you had ten cupcakes the govenment would take away 4 but if you only had 5 they would only take one, the ratios are not the same. In some countries if you had 10 they would take away 6 but if you had 5 they would only take 1 Makeing sure everyone would end up with only 4 cupcakes. so what is fair and equalible or universal about that. The higher the income you have the higher percentage you pay in taxes. starting at o% for low income and going to 50% for the highest income earners.
But have little no more say in how their taxes are spent then the person paying little or no taxes.
In freedoms voting for governments is totally over rated because so few actually do vote.



Last edited by Youdan; August 25th, 2007 at 3:46 am.
  #33  
Old August 25th, 2007, 4:27 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

You know, I'm surprised no one has really brought up the 26th Amendment in this debate yet. [The one ratified in 1971, that lowered the voting age to 18.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The idea was that people who were old enough to be allowed to join the military should have a say in the selection of the civilian government that determines when and how military force is used.
The average military guy isn't exactly in the upper tax brackets, and not all of them are landowners, either.


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Last edited by Pox Voldius; August 25th, 2007 at 4:32 am.
  #34  
Old August 25th, 2007, 5:20 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
Since they pay more to run the government shouldn't they have greater say in how the government is run?
Does the word "tyranny" mean anything?


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  #35  
Old August 25th, 2007, 5:35 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
But the tax system dosen't work like that.. if you had ten cupcakes the govenment would take away 4 but if you only had 5 they would only take one, the ratios are not the same. In some countries if you had 10 they would take away 6 but if you had 5 they would only take 1 Makeing sure everyone would end up with only 4 cupcakes. so what is fair and equalible or universal about that. The higher the income you have the higher percentage you pay in taxes. starting at o% for low income and going to 50% for the highest income earners.
But have little no more say in how their taxes are spent then the person paying little or no taxes.
In freedoms voting for governments is totally over rated because so few actually do vote.
Fair enough. But the wealthiest members of society aren't the only members. People who pay fewer taxes don't do so by choice (unless they're committing tax evasion), and they're still very affected by the laws. Allowing wealthier people more voting rights would penalize thousands of people for something they have little control over.


  #36  
Old August 25th, 2007, 6:07 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
Since they pay more to run the government shouldn't they have greater say in how the government is run?
Government exists to ensure that the country functions with equality and fairness for all; as much as possible.


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  #37  
Old August 25th, 2007, 7:57 am
Youdan Youdan is offline
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Government exists to ensure that the country functions with equality and fairness for all; as much as possible.
So how dose sliding tax show equaltiy and fairnress for all instaed of flat tax rate? dose the government punish those work have better jobs by having to pay higher tax rates. or get a promotion only to slide into a higher tax bracket and take home less money. or work extra hours only to be punished by paying higher percentage of their earnings to the tax man. just as a sliding vote dosen't seem fair for all how dose sliding tax system seem fair for those getting an income.
In several societies a person has to earn the right to be heard or earn the right to vote. To show the comminuty they have done something to earn the right to vote. As with the old system of voting being a landowner they have earned the right to vote by owning land.


  #38  
Old August 25th, 2007, 10:21 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

The people who are born into owning land have done nothing to 'earn their right' they just happened to be born into a (most likely) wealthier and luckier family. It's like the people who are born into being Lords and Ladies and automatically getting a seat in the House of Lords. Granted, most of these people never actually sit in the Lords or have anything to do with it but the choice is always there for them.


  #39  
Old August 25th, 2007, 10:40 am
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
Then as they are taxed more, why aren't they represented more?
Because democracy is not about money or wealthiness having the power to rule, is it? It's about allowing all people the right to have a say in the running of the country that is a guarantor of their civil rights. Making it about "those who pay more should have more power" is a diversion from democracy.

Whatever benefits there might issue from restricting the right to vole only to landowners, the fact that this is NOT democracy stays, so I fail to see how any merits from this can exceed the losses.


  #40  
Old August 25th, 2007, 1:35 pm
Youdan Youdan is offline
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Re: The Right To Vote, For Property Owners Only?

but some ridings (electoral distircts) have more people then others. So how dose one vote count? or urban Vs rural why should cities populations have have a greater say in how the whole country is run? then the people who farm and own rural land Vs the city flat dewler.



Last edited by Youdan; August 25th, 2007 at 1:41 pm.
 
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