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  #681  
Old June 7th, 2013, 4:20 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Oh, I will see the episode again, too, but I meant the song. It's soooo haunting and catchy.
Yeah. I've been playing every version of that song that I can get my hands on.


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  #682  
Old June 8th, 2013, 2:38 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

It has been interesting to read the book readers reaction to the TV series. I only read the first book, so I have a limited perspective on the series.

I wanted to add that Catelyn's reaction at the Red Wedding seemed very appropriate to me. The look of shock and the almost catatonic glare as she was about to be murdered seemed to fit well with her sense of pride, her helplessness, and maybe even the realization that her mistakes caused this disaster. If she had gone insane or crazy or some other reaction, I think it would have taken away from her integrity. She was a strong woman and she needed to end that way.

Does anyone else find Shae's hold over Tyrion to be annoying? It doesn't feel like true love anymore, just a lot of pouting and game playing. I guess I want him to just tell her to cut it out.


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  #683  
Old June 8th, 2013, 5:39 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
It has been interesting to read the book readers reaction to the TV series. I only read the first book, so I have a limited perspective on the series.

I wanted to add that Catelyn's reaction at the Red Wedding seemed very appropriate to me. The look of shock and the almost catatonic glare as she was about to be murdered seemed to fit well with her sense of pride, her helplessness, and maybe even the realization that her mistakes caused this disaster. If she had gone insane or crazy or some other reaction, I think it would have taken away from her integrity. She was a strong woman and she needed to end that way.
I'm a book reader, and I thought the catatonic stare worked really well. I don't think Catelyn's final actions in the book scene would have translated as well to screen as the catatonia, then fade to black... and silence. I thought that bit was brilliant.

A lot of the drama of Catelyn's final moments in the book involves her thoughts in addition to her actions. But we don't have access to her thoughts on screen. This is why I think it's best to signal her mental break without a lot of additional drama. I thought the catatonia was perfect for doing that.

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Does anyone else find Shae's hold over Tyrion to be annoying? It doesn't feel like true love anymore, just a lot of pouting and game playing. I guess I want him to just tell her to cut it out.
I'm so glad you said that because I find Shae more compelling in the TV show than in the books. But she should be pouty and game playing, so I'm glad to hear it's coming across that way for someone who hasn't read past the first book.


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  #684  
Old June 8th, 2013, 7:03 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I'm a book reader, and I thought the catatonic stare worked really well. I don't think Catelyn's final actions in the book scene would have translated as well to screen as the catatonia, then fade to black... and silence. I thought that bit was brilliant.

A lot of the drama of Catelyn's final moments in the book involves her thoughts in addition to her actions. But we don't have access to her thoughts on screen. This is why I think it's best to signal her mental break without a lot of additional drama. I thought the catatonia was perfect for doing that.
I thought so too because I felt like I could see that moment where all those thoughts of her children flooding through her head. Now...
Spoiler: show
I wonder if Lady Stoneheart (should she appear) will look as terrible as she is described in the books if she doesn't have gashes on her face. I really hope they play up the makeup, the white hair, the soggy hanging skin, because as much as I feel like I'll love Stoneheart translated on TV (I don't particularly love her in the books because she's just so unCatelyn) I also want there to be the feel that this is not Cat. This is something else.


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  #685  
Old June 11th, 2013, 5:12 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Well, you know something has made the big time with the Onion makes fun of it.

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Does anyone else find Shae's hold over Tyrion to be annoying? It doesn't feel like true love anymore, just a lot of pouting and game playing. I guess I want him to just tell her to cut it out.
I'm so glad you said that because I find Shae more compelling in the TV show than in the books. But she should be pouty and game playing, so I'm glad to hear it's coming across that way for someone who hasn't read past the first book.
Actually, I liked the fact that they had largely gotten rid of it. Book Shae is a bubbly air-head: it would be perplexing that a man like Tyrion would fall for such a woman, except for the fact that he's a dwarf and thus has some serious hangups about his personal worth and attractiveness.

However, I think that the last episode really drew the line in the sand: Book Shae would have gladly taken the diamonds and gone; well, she would have taken the diamonds, anyway: she might have gotten distracted on her way to the docks and forgotten that she meant to go. TV Shae declares herself a defender of both Sansa and Tyrion. In a lot of ways, the difference between Book Shae and TV Shae parallels the difference between Book Jeyne Westerling (Medieval pom-pom girl) and TV Talisa (Doctors Without Borders Medic); that is, they replace a "girly" girl with a woman.


Along these lines, I think that (overall) they did a really good job with this season. I was really worried when I heard that they were going to split the book into 2 seasons. Martin constructed his plots and character arcs so that the story was told by the culmination of many threads over the course of the last third of the book. That creates a problem: even if the season ended at the Red Wedding, then it would have problems telling Martin's story about the conflict of mixed love and hate.

However, in the end, I think that the producers managed to do a very good job of telling a "substory": Love and Betrayal. Despite the long buildup, the whole season was linked by this in varying ways: the Red Wedding being obvious, but Jon & Ygritte (very nicely finished, by they way), Shae & Tyrion, Sansa getting repeatedly betrayed by her ideals about love, the Old Bear being betrayed by the Night Watch, Jorah feeling betrayed by Daenerys falling for Fabio/Legolas, Davos & Stannis, Arya & Gendry with Berid Dondarion, etc. Sure, there were some kinks: but that reflected that they were adapting a slightly different story using only part of the original character arcs and plots.

And, of course, I really tip my cap to them for managing to make the Red Wedding shocking and horrifying for someone who had read the book. Some purists still ask "why Talisa?" Well, there were many reasons: but the single biggest had to be what she let them do there.

Finally, I think that the end once again directed the audience to the two characters that really are the story: Daenerys and Jon. Part of the reason why the Red Wedding was so traumatic for readers is that so many of them actually thought that Robb was "The Hero." Indeed, I was always stunned by how many readers thought that Daenerys was some meaningless side-exposition or that Jon's ultimate role was to be a Faramir to Robb's Aragorn. Martin called the series "A Song of Ice and Fire": and those two really are the "Ice" and "Fire." The final two visual motifs of circles around Jon and Daenerys, one with arrows pointing in him, the other with a crowd of near-worshippers pointing at her was just that: pointing to the story's targets. Those are visual motifs that cinematic storytelling can do that literary storytelling cannot: and it's cool to see the producers thinking of ways to do that.


I have only one "wish" and I have to call it that because I won't call it a criticism unless I can think of a better solution myself. And that is that I wish that they had found a way to distribute the action more evenly throughout the story. I cannot elaborate without spoiling, but I don't think that it's spoiling anything to tell people that the Red Wedding is just the start: the rest of this story is payoff, payoff, payoff. And I really don't know how Benioff, Weiss and Martin could have restructured things to do this without losing the structure of the plot and (in the end) the story, given how the plot is going to affect the remaining characters.

To wrap, my fears about the Red Wedding reducing the audience are allayed. The finale had the 2nd highest ratings for the series. This season had a 43% increase over last season, and a 100% increase over the first season. I'm betting now that Binge watching over the summer will result in a big opening episode and another instant renewal.


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  #686  
Old June 11th, 2013, 1:49 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Finally, I think that the end once again directed the audience to the two characters that really are the story: Daenerys and Jon. Part of the reason why the Red Wedding was so traumatic for readers is that so many of them actually thought that Robb was "The Hero." Indeed, I was always stunned by how many readers thought that Daenerys was some meaningless side-exposition or that Jon's ultimate role was to be a Faramir to Robb's Aragorn. Martin called the series "A Song of Ice and Fire": and those two really are the "Ice" and "Fire." The final two visual motifs of circles around Jon and Daenerys, one with arrows pointing in him, the other with a crowd of near-worshippers pointing at her was just that: pointing to the story's targets. Those are visual motifs that cinematic storytelling can do that literary storytelling cannot: and it's cool to see the producers thinking of ways to do that.
Jon was one of my favorite characters from the first book, and I always wished he had more of a future than just being on the Night Watch. Your "spoiler" gives me hope that I might see him become more than just a minor subplot.

I think the way they are setting up Daenerys' story gives a hint that she may become the strongest one yet. She has the potential to build a huge army before showing up for battle. Everyone else is getting betrayed and murdered mercilessly. She is far away from what is going on in Westoros right now, which will probably work to her advantage.

Quote:
I have only one "wish" and I have to call it that because I won't call it a criticism unless I can think of a better solution myself. And that is that I wish that they had found a way to distribute the action more evenly throughout the story. I cannot elaborate without spoiling, but I don't think that it's spoiling anything to tell people that the Red Wedding is just the start: the rest of this story is payoff, payoff, payoff. And I really don't know how Benioff, Weiss and Martin could have restructured things to do this without losing the structure of the plot and (in the end) the story, given how the plot is going to affect the remaining characters.
Tyrion's comments to Tywin about the massacre of the Starks made it pretty clear that there will be plenty of revenge coming up.


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  #687  
Old June 12th, 2013, 2:27 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

All I'll say about Dany is that, with the books which are currently written, this season that just ended will be the most action packed for her. I have no idea how they'll present her story the next few seasons.


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  #688  
Old June 23rd, 2013, 7:27 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Here is something moderately ironic! Some of the plots in A Song of Ice and Fire were heavily inspired by the War of the Roses. Well, in part because of the success of Game of Thrones (as well as by The Tudors), the Beeb is doing a series about... The War of the Roses! It is not getting quite as favorably reviewed, however. If nothing else, then it's the classic problem that both historians and hardcore fans fail to grasp: details (historical or otherwise) do not make a story! It seems like they've remembered events and sex, but forgotten to reforge the historical details into a true story of any sort.

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Jon was one of my favorite characters from the first book, and I always wished he had more of a future than just being on the Night Watch. Your "spoiler" gives me hope that I might see him become more than just a minor subplot.
Heh, my "spoiler" really is an opinion: we won't really know until book 7, and who knows if we'll live to see that. However, my wife claims that back in 1998 or so, I countered the claim that Thrones was radical for killing off the main protagonist 3/4ths of the way through the first book by declaring that Jon and Dany were the main protagonists, not Ned! (I do remember the discussion, and it does seem like I've always thought that, but I don't remember the details: there were adult beverages and post-midnight hours involved!)
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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I think the way they are setting up Daenerys' story gives a hint that she may become the strongest one yet. She has the potential to build a huge army before showing up for battle. Everyone else is getting betrayed and murdered mercilessly. She is far away from what is going on in Westoros right now, which will probably work to her advantage.
Amusingly, there are (or were 10+ years ago) a core of book readers that just could not for the life of them figure out why Daenerys was important. Insofar as I remember, it was a combination of factors. Good old fashioned sexism was one of them: fantasy geekdom was still dominated at that time by boys who were afraid of girls. (J. K. Rowling and Peter Jackson have helped change that, but you can still find those types.) But simple misunderstanding was another big part: until the Red Wedding, a lot of readers saw this as a "story" about the Starks vs. the Lannisters. Dany simply didn't play a role in that. However, neither did the Others: and yet Martin's book opens on the White Walkers and their Wights, just as the TV series did. Now, Starks might figure in "Ice": but Lannisters are not "Fire," the Targaryens are.
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Tyrion's comments to Tywin about the massacre of the Starks made it pretty clear that there will be plenty of revenge coming up.
Also, the TV series has left us with 3 groups heading to the Wall. Dany is picking up steam. Oh, and there are weddings, too. We all know what that means!

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All I'll say about Dany is that, with the books which are currently written, this season that just ended will be the most action packed for her. I have no idea how they'll present her story the next few seasons.
Well, next season has some major action if they follow the books. Presumably Season 5 will meld Crows & Dragons, and there is plenty of Tudors-esque drama for Dany then.



We should be getting casting news soon for Season 4, as they start filming in a month or so. All that I have read are vague rumors: everyone is too worried about who is going to play Doctor #12, whoops, #13!


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  #689  
Old June 29th, 2013, 12:00 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Made it up to episode 4 so far in season 3...

Spoiler: show
Holy cow . The tension has been building slowly for everyone so far. Really good season . Really like Daenerys Targaryen's storyline so far. She's really surprised me... heck I didn't see the plan she had in mind at all. Seeing how the dragon reacted to it's new master (as in the master didn't treat it well and didn't have any clue as to how to control it), and then how easily Daenerys could control the army she got from him... was jaw dropping. Incredible. The king didn't see that one coming at all. Then the ending... with her getting her revenge on him, via her dragon burning him alive with its fire . Definitely looking forward to seeing the rest of the season.


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  #690  
Old June 29th, 2013, 1:19 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Made it up to episode 4 so far in season 3...
Heh, you don't have to put this in spoilers: it was shown 2 months ago!

Yeah, this is why Daenerys is such an awesome character. She evolves at a faster rate than any other character: really, only Arya comes close. I really hope that the two meet in the future: I think that the two could be quite intense in their interactions.

It sort of shows here, although I would have moved Daenerys up a couple of notches:


In other news, Prince Oberyn, a.k.a. the Red Viper has been cast. He's kind of cool....


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Old June 29th, 2013, 1:21 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Had a GoT epiphany recently. I just binge-watched all 9 seasons and 2 movies of the X-Files and realized that that show is kind of more suited to watching one episode a week in order to really feel the passage of time and the building friendship between Mulder and Scully.

On the other hand, I watched the first two seasons of GoT binge-style and loved it and watching GoT one episode a week for season three really made me crazy, which is kind of ironic as GoT seems to cover more "real time" per episode or between episodes than a network show like X-Files.

I feel like for me GoT is a binge-watching type show - the episodes and the way they are written lend themselves more to watching one after the other IMO. At least I feel like I enjoyed seasons one and two more because I binge-watched them and season three less because I kept having to either rewatch the previous episode or two before the next new one or had to wing it and hope I remembered everything I needed to remember.

Anything, that's my thought for the day.


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Old June 29th, 2013, 2:15 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

@ Wimsey: Thought there might have been some people who haven't been caught up to speed on this season yet. That's why I did the spoilers .


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  #693  
Old June 30th, 2013, 5:57 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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I feel like for me GoT is a binge-watching type show - the episodes and the way they are written lend themselves more to watching one after the other IMO.
That no doubt stems from the fact that the basic plot structure comes from a book, where you have to organize things much differently to communicate big passages of time between chapters.

But it is great binge watching: we binged Seasons 1 and 2 before 3. I'm not sure how we will binge 1-3 before next season!
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At least I feel like I enjoyed seasons one and two more because I binge-watched them and season three less because I kept having to either rewatch the previous episode or two before the next new one or had to wing it and hope I remembered everything I needed to remember.
Huh, I have found that they really did a good job of reminding viewers of what was important with the "previously, on Game of Thrones" montage at the outset of the show.

Indeed, I had argued that the last few Harry Potter films really needed to do that. As you note, remembering details from a week or more ago gets tough on a viewer: so, what happens after 18 months? (That's rhetorical: the answer is "nearly impossible.") At any rate, many other shows (Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Dexter, TruBlood, etc.) use this format and it seems to be effective.

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@ Wimsey: Thought there might have been some people who haven't been caught up to speed on this season yet. That's why I did the spoilers .
Well, then they should avoid this thread! We've been discussing the episodes in great detail.

Obviously, COS is coming to an end, but these two comments combined make me wonder if future forums should have two sections for TV shows: one for discussing the current productions (last week's episode, casting rumors, how it's meeting expectations, etc.) and one for binge-watchers catching up! Of course, even that has problems: binge watchers might (literally) be years apart.

On that subject, has there been any more casting news?


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  #694  
Old July 1st, 2013, 5:13 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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That no doubt stems from the fact that the basic plot structure comes from a book, where you have to organize things much differently to communicate big passages of time between chapters.
No doubt. I felt, though, like I followed the stories in seasons 1 and 2 better because I binge-watched them rather than the season 3 stories because so little of each episode is actually devoted to a single character that if you watch them one episode a week you can go two weeks before you see Arya again, or Jon again, or Tyrion again, etc. and I found that personally frustrating at times.

I think they're handling the passage of time on the show very well, it's the juggle of character stories that I find only slightly disappointing and I think that I personally follow them much better and become much more invested in the stories when I binge watch them - that way it's two hours before you see Jon again, not eighty hours of work, 8 other shows and however many social commitments later.

Quote:
But it is great binge watching: we binged Seasons 1 and 2 before 3. I'm not sure how we will binge 1-3 before next season!
Perhaps I'll try to run a binge-watching experiment on season 3 in the fall to see if my enjoyment goes up. (... Not that I didn't greatly enjoy the season...)

Quote:
Huh, I have found that they really did a good job of reminding viewers of what was important with the "previously, on Game of Thrones" montage at the outset of the show.
It's the sheer amount of time between the episodes that I think I found frustrating, not that they didn't do a good job reminding the viewers of the important plot points for that episode. When I binge watched season 2 (the first season where I really didn't know what was going to happen - I haven't read the books and don't have plans to in the foreseeable future (no time)) I couldn't not immediately start the next episode I was so engrossed whereas this time I sat down to watch on Sunday thinking "Okay.... what just happened? Who was going where again? Theon was doing what? Jon was where? When was the last time I saw Sam and what was he doing?" and at the end of the episode I'd be thinking "So there wasn't any Sam so I need to rewatch that one episode before next week because of the teaser, and I can't remember what was going on with Tyrion so I need to rewatch the other episode..." Basically it's easier for me to binge watch and try to remember an episode from that morning than an episode from a month and a half ago, even with the pre-episode reminders.

Quote:
Indeed, I had argued that the last few Harry Potter films really needed to do that. As you note, remembering details from a week or more ago gets tough on a viewer: so, what happens after 18 months?


Quote:
Well, then they should avoid this thread! We've been discussing the episodes in great detail.
That's what spoiler tags are for, IMO. If you're discussing something from the books then put it in a spoiler tag; everyone here knows there are fans who haven't read the books yet and it's extending them a courtesy IMO to consciously try to not spoil them. The reason it's okay not to do that for HP is because this is an HP forum; this isn't a GoT forum where it's expected that everyone here has read the books...

Just my opinion.

(Also, I have found that for the most part people in this thread are reasonably good at doing this, though I had
Spoiler: show
the Red Wedding and Rob's death
spoiled for me by someone who didn't put that little tidbit into a spoiler tag.) ^^-- A Just In Case spoiler tag...

Quote:
Obviously, COS is coming to an end, but these two comments combined make me wonder if future forums should have two sections for TV shows: one for discussing the current productions (last week's episode, casting rumors, how it's meeting expectations, etc.) and one for binge-watchers catching up! Of course, even that has problems: binge watchers might (literally) be years apart.
I don't think so - there's no way to manage a binge-watcher's thread that won't spoil someone. You'd have to have threads for people who've only see up to Season 2 episode 4, then another for people who've only seen up to Season 2 episode 5 and then majorly police the discussions in each thread... too much work for any moderator.

Personally, I think if you're a binge watcher and you don't want to be spoiled than it's up to you to avoid places and shows and magazines that could spoil you or just take them in your stride. I had Ned's death in Season 1 spoiled for me but it didn't decrease my enjoyment of that season. And the spoiler from my tag above (and another I recently learned about) was my own fault for visiting this thread as much as it was the person who didn't put that info in a spoiler tag. I knew I could see spoilers by visiting this thread but I decided to take the risk and then had no one but myself to blame when I was spoiled.


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  #695  
Old July 1st, 2013, 8:49 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Okay, If I could interject just for a moment. I find that table quite troubling, on those shows for which I have a reference point.

Justified--I like that Raylan and Art are at similar points of Goood and Likeability. I understand Winona being slightly Hateable because she has occasional daft moments (like stealing the money from the evidence locker and her impulse control and taste in men are both suspect). But why is Tim so likeable and Rachel slightly Hateable? Tim is a boring drunk who retains his sniper skills. Rachel is more interesting and her worst trait is she doesn't suffer fools gladly (a plus in my book). Boyd should probably be right next to Al Capone on the Likeable Villain scale. I think they overestimate Ava's charisma, but the character has developed some positive qualities. I honestly don't understand the rating of Wynn Duffy. Niche inteerest doesn't always translate to likeability.

Scandal--Olivia is likeable, but she's a White Hat. She's in the wrong quadrant. I like the rating of Cyrus as evil and manipulative, but slightly sympathetic occasionally. I like that Mellie is considered completely hateable, but I think her scheming and ambition are undersold, I think she should be below Cyrus and all the way to the right in the bad quadrant.

I find it strange they bothered to rank Dexter, but no one else from his show. I think his charisma and Boyd's are about equivalent.

Most of the Game of Thrones rankings I understand--except, I think they're underselling Ceresei's evil and hateability and drastically underselling Tywin. I think Arya's, Sansa's, and Joffrey's rankings are accurate. They inhabit the corners very well. Tyrion's is close to accurate. However, Dany is a complete misfire. On the show, Dany is a much better and more likeable character than they are showing. I'd put her near where they have Saul from Homeland.

Anyway, back to our wait for Joffrey's wedding which will probably be midway through next season.


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  #696  
Old July 1st, 2013, 10:40 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

We have an A Song of Ice and Fire thread in the literature subforum. Use it. If you want to mention things from the books that have not be adapted yet in this thread, use spoiler tags. However, if you opt to read this thread, the assumption that all episodes that aired are being discussed is sound. Spoiler tags are not being used for discussing episodes of a previous season. So please, dearest participants, do not make this more complex than it is. The rules have been in place for years and I would welcome it if the discussion remains friendly and respectful.


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  #697  
Old July 13th, 2013, 12:43 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

I'm up to episode 8 of season 3... only 3 more to go to the end of the season... it's been really good so far.

Feel sorry for poor Tyrion and Sansa though . Talk about a rough situation that they've both been put into... I don't envy either of them.

Still hate Joffery to the Nth degree though... he is one SICK you know what .


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  #698  
Old July 14th, 2013, 1:43 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Pedro Pascal has been cast as Prince Oberyn, a.k.a., the Red Viper. I saw a couple of brief clips: he does a great job of exuding classic Latin sex-appeal, which seems like a great take on Oberyn. For those who (shockingly!) do not remember every name that is tossed out, Oberyn Martell is the brother of Elia Martell, who was the wife of Rhaegar (the dude who stole Lyanna, Ned Stark's sister and Robert's one true love). Oh what tangled webs we weave.


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  #699  
Old July 15th, 2013, 6:45 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Just saw episode 9... oh my god... I'm at a loss for words. So much blood. I know that stuff like this probably did happen in real life, but it still is shocking. Will be watching episode 10 tomorrow most likely.


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  #700  
Old July 15th, 2013, 4:36 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Well, if they cast Oberyn, does that mean we're looking at
Spoiler: show
Greg Clegane's conversion into a revivified automaton
and better yet
Spoiler: show
Joffrey's death by poison
?


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