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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #101  
Old January 27th, 2008, 1:23 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
You think it would be less callous to tell a boy of 11 his days are numbered? I respectfully disagree.
Lots of heroes in fantasy know their destiny at a very young age, many younger than 11. However, I think at a maximum, Dumbledore should have told Harry when he began 4th year at 14.

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Ah, the idea was to get the wand, first inactivated for good, and later simply not his, into Voldemort's hands, then. Interesting take on the situation, this makes sense as a devious plan, anyway. The idea that setting Snape up to die was a goal of Dumbledore's because he deserved it for killing James is the part I have difficulty believing could possibly be what Dumbledore wanted.
Well every reason why Snape might have done it is pure conjecture. Imo, he did it and we have no idea why. It could merely be because Snape was the only one in his circle of helpers that would know when Nagini was caged - so he was chosen as the fall guy. But that seems even more callous than Dumbledore at least trying to help Snape in some other way. The no-remorse for James deal was just a suggestion. Could have been to make Snape show continued loyalty in the face of death...or whatever. But the fact remains that he set Snape up in a position where the potential of his being killed by Voldemort was very high without telling him. That behavior was not appropriate, imo.

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What, then, do you think is meant in the exchange between Harry and Dumbledore in King's Cross about things not working out? Snape is dead, and Voldemort thinks he is master of the Elder Wand, at the point that conversation takes place.
It meant that Snape didn't get the wand and since Dumbledore obviously didn't plan for his portrait to tell Snape (or Dumbledore would have known), then I can only imagine Dumbledore believed Snape would find out Draco had it (from Draco) and take it from him. Not because it was the Elder Wand, but merely because it was Dumbledore's old wand.


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  #102  
Old January 27th, 2008, 2:19 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
What, then, do you think is meant in the exchange between Harry and Dumbledore in King's Cross about things not working out? Snape is dead, and Voldemort thinks he is master of the Elder Wand, at the point that conversation takes place.
I know you were asking someone else this question, but here is my answer. The thing that didn't work out, in my opinion, was the power of the Elder Wand dying with Dumbledore. Draco became the master and that was the part of the plan that Dumbledore did not count on. As far as Snape's role in the wand plan, it remained unchanged, in my opinion. Snape was never meant to be the Master of the wand. Voldemort was always supposed to believe that Snape was the master. And that is what happened. Dumbledore's plan as far as Snape's role remained in place, in my opinion.



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Originally Posted by zgirnius
Though he seemed to understand it very quickly, for someone who never heard of the wand before. Of course, it is possible he was familiar with the concept, and simply not that Albus had actually had that wand.
Snape is extremely intelligent in my opinion and I believe that it is very likely that he had heard the legend of the Elder Wand. Ron had heard of it and believed it to be a legend. Snape may have heard of real wizards owning it and known the truth about it.

(I'll come back to this part later. I need to check the books first.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius
But what is being suggested is that Dumbledore deliberately made a plan which required Snape's death to work. This is worse even than what he did to Harry, because he hoped Harry would live. It was not necessary for Harry to die, just for the soul bit to be destroyed.
Yes and no. Dumbledore made a plan that would most likely lead to Snape's death, but it wasn't a guarantee. Voldemort had to find the Elder Wand, first, which took awhile. Then he had to figure out why it wasn't working properly, which also took awhile. So there is a chance that Snape wouldn't get killed before Voldemort, although I admit that chance was slim.

But in my opinion, just having Snape agree to kill Dumbledore was signing his death warrant. Snape would have known that he was the number one target of the good guys once he became Dumbledore's murderer. His willingness to put himself in such a dangerous position isn't such a small step to the much greater danger from Voldemort himself.

The one thing that wasn't fair, though, is that Snape didn't know that Voldemort would have a reason to target him. He knew that the Order and the Ministry would be after him, but he had no idea that Voldemort would, too. But then, Dumbledore had done that to others, in my opinion, in an effort to win the war.


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  #103  
Old January 27th, 2008, 2:33 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Yes and no. Dumbledore made a plan that would most likely lead to Snape's death, but it wasn't a guarantee. Voldemort had to find the Elder Wand, first, which took awhile. Then he had to figure out why it wasn't working properly, which also took awhile. So there is a chance that Snape wouldn't get killed before Voldemort, although I admit that chance was slim.
WWB suggested that the plan was for Voldemort to have the wand, and believe himself its master by virtue of Snape's murder. That plan is not in effect if Snape is still alive. He suggested, even, that the delays Dumbledore threw in front of Harry, were to give Voldemort time to find the wand, figure out he needed to kill Snape, and then kill him. That's what I'm objecting to.

As I see it, Dumbledore had no idea when Voldemort would track down the wand, and hoped it might be too late. And he may have entertainted the idea he would not kill a servant as useful as Snape seemed to be, if Voldemort realized from his research into the wand, that it was not necessary to kill the previous master to win the wand's loyalty. That killing Dumbledore increased Snape's risks in one particular way that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about up front seems clear enough. I have, in fact, been defending Dumbledore's decision to do this earlier in the thread on the grounds that the whereabouts of the Elder Wand was a secret too important to tell someone who had such a high risk of capture as Snape.


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  #104  
Old January 27th, 2008, 2:57 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
As I see it, Dumbledore had no idea when Voldemort would track down the wand, and hoped it might be too late. And he may have entertainted the idea he would not kill a servant as useful as Snape seemed to be, if Voldemort realized from his research into the wand, that it was not necessary to kill the previous master to win the wand's loyalty. That killing Dumbledore increased Snape's risks in one particular way that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about up front seems clear enough. I have, in fact, been defending Dumbledore's decision to do this earlier in the thread on the grounds that the whereabouts of the Elder Wand was a secret too important to tell someone who had such a high risk of capture as Snape.
Well, then, we pretty much agree on most of this. I wonder, though, if Dumbledore thought there was a chance that Voldemort would spare Snape. I tend to think that Dumbledore would have predicted Voldemort to act exactly as he did. He knew Voldemort better than most people.

Here is a question I have. I have reread the Tower scene and Shrieking Shack scene. When Snape arrived at the Tower he saw Dumbledore slumped against the wall and Draco and the Death Eaters holding their wands on Dumbledore. Do you think Snape noticed that Dumbledore was unarmed? Would Snape have assumed that one of those people disarmed Dumbledore?

Then in the Shrieking Shack Voldemort tells Snape that the Elder Wand works for the person who kills the former owner. Do you think Snape was able to figure out in that brief time the whole plan? Do you think he figured out that Dumbledore asked him to kill him so the power of the wand died with him? Now, the big question, would Snape have figured out that the person who disarmed Dumbledore was the true master and that Voldemort would not be the true master until he killed one of the wizards who was on the Tower?


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  #105  
Old January 27th, 2008, 3:01 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Interesting thought Susanbones...I wonder if the logical extension would then be that, not only was Snape trying to escape the Shrieking shack to get to Harry...he was also going to warn Draco or Lucius or Narcissa?


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  #106  
Old January 27th, 2008, 3:19 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Now, the big question, would Snape have figured out that the person who disarmed Dumbledore was the true master and that Voldemort would not be the true master until he killed one of the wizards who was on the Tower?
I don't think that Snape was thinking about much of anything aside from the fact that, with Nagini in an enchanted cage, he now needed not only to find a way to get to Harry, but to get Harry to trust him. His eyes were fixed on the snake, he kept telling Voldemort that he could get Potter.

Our potions master was a very single-minded, direct man, he was, and he knew that getting information to Harry was the most important thing in the world.

He didn't even tell Harry to look into his eyes, so that he could see Lily's eyes once more, before all of the memories had been collected.


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  #107  
Old January 27th, 2008, 3:44 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Do you think Snape noticed that Dumbledore was unarmed? Would Snape have assumed that one of those people disarmed Dumbledore?
Yes, I believe he did notice that detail. I always thought this is why Harry's "Kill me like you killed him" right after Snape disarmed him, had such an effect.


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  #108  
Old January 27th, 2008, 3:51 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Yes, I believe he did notice that detail. I always thought this is why Harry's "Kill me like you killed him" right after Snape disarmed him, had such an effect.
Good catch. I forgot about that scene. So, that leads to the next question. What was going through Snape's mind when Voldemort told him about the Elder Wand?

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Originally Posted by IgoRetla View Post
I don't think that Snape was thinking about much of anything aside from the fact that, with Nagini in an enchanted cage, he now needed not only to find a way to get to Harry, but to get Harry to trust him. His eyes were fixed on the snake, he kept telling Voldemort that he could get Potter.

Our potions master was a very single-minded, direct man, he was, and he knew that getting information to Harry was the most important thing in the world.

He didn't even tell Harry to look into his eyes, so that he could see Lily's eyes once more, before all of the memories had been collected.
Maybe. But Snape did take his eyes off the snake and look directly at Voldemort for the last part, the part where Voldemort tells Snape that he must kill him in order to be the true master of the wand. So, he was thinking about what Voldemort said and started to protest what he was saying. I got the impression that he stopped thinking about Harry when he figured out he was going to die.


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  #109  
Old January 27th, 2008, 4:03 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by IgoRetla View Post
I don't think that Snape was thinking about much of anything aside from the fact that, with Nagini in an enchanted cage, he now needed not only to find a way to get to Harry, but to get Harry to trust him. His eyes were fixed on the snake, he kept telling Voldemort that he could get Potter.
This is not accurate. The moment Voldemort states the wand he holds is the Elder Wand, taken from the grave of its former master, Dumbledore, Snape reacts strongly, and looks at him.

DH, "The Elder Wand""I took it from the gave of Albus Dumbledore."
And now Snape looked at Voldemort, and Snape's face was like a death mask. It was marble-white and so still that when he spoke, it was a shock to see that anyone lived behind the blank eyes.


Snape again makes a plea to let him go to look for Harry, but it is clear that he has taken in the information about the wand, and even drawn a conclusion without the aid of Voldemort's later explanation. (Namely, that he and thus any chance to get his message to Harry, are toast if he does not talk his way out of that room).

Voldemort then explains his reasoning for why he needs to kill Snape, and Snape does no more than protest feebly. ("My Lord!") This could be because no clever things to say to divert Voldemort from his course occur to him. But it seems clear to me he was at least aware of the problem.

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I got the impression that he stopped thinking about Harry when he figured out he was going to die.
I don't agree (or am misconstruing your statement). In my opinion he realizes he may be about to die in the bit I quoted. And he returns to the 'let me get Harry' spiel one last time after that. I think it is still his goal - just that it has become clear that he may not live to do so.


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  #110  
Old January 27th, 2008, 4:13 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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posted by wwb
I respect your view, but I don't think it was left out. I gave several reasons why and unless someone can suggest a reason for Snape's face that went from pale to "like a death mask, it was marble white and so still that when he spoke, it was a shock to see that anyone lived behind the blank eyes" when Voldemort told him that Dumbledore had been the Master of the Elder Wand, then I am all ears. And why if Snape knew about the elder wand, thus knew he could die at any time that Voldemort discovered it, why he didn't come up with a plan to ensure Harry got the important message he carried. And why he didn't go and get the wand from Dumbledore's grave and hide it.

However, if you see this as ambiguous and you feel there is a possibility that Snape knew about the wand - then why don't you just adopt that belief?
I did and was pretty convinced until I was slightly swayed by other arguments and realize that other posters too, may have a point. But, having said that there is nothing to tell me until now that Dumbledore did tell Snape and it was Snape’s choice. Not that he would have chosen differently, but still something this big should have been his choice. The willingness to sacrifice his life should have been Snape’s and not Dumbledore if it has been so planned by him.

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Further, as I have pointed out, Dumbledore may well have planned to warn Snape about the danger of the wand once the wand was safely neutralized by his death. Only, it wasn't safely neutralized, and then the situation was an accomplished fact.
Snape did not need to know about Draco being the master of the wand. By not informing Snape about it, the actual master of the Elder wand would be protected and Voldemort, even if he killed Snape to become the Master, will not have a wand that works for him, because Snape was not the actual master. It was Draco Malfoy. Dumbledore actually telling Snape about the Elder wand would not harm anything; in fact it would only protect his plans because nobody knows about Draco becoming the master of the elder wand other than Dumbledore.

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I would point out that Dumbledore demonstrably loved and respected Harry, and yet he did not tell him in advance that he would have to allow Voldemort to kill him. He did not want to burden Harry with that information before it was necessary for Harry to know.

I'm really not sure Dumbledore loved Snape, and for me it is OK if he did not. Love is a deeply personal feeling that grows up naturally and cannot be forced. Snape was in some ways not all that lovable. But in his work with Dumbledore he was admirable in his courage and loyalty, and for that, the least he deserved from Albus was respect.
LOL; I did think for a minute after I wrote love and wondered if I should change it to affection. But then I decided to leave it as it is, because I very much wanted Snape to be loved. Snape has had such a tough life; he has not much love shown to him by anyone, and yet he slaves because he loves. I wanted him to be loved too; just wishful thinking really!

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You do not need to kill to win the wand, only defeat its master, I agree. But in my opinion, the killing of one wizard by another using a deadly magical curse the other wizard cannot fight off is a defeat. (For example, while killing Snape was unnecessary, I believe that if Snape had truly been the master of the wand, this would have sufficed to pass the wand to Voldemort in truth).

While Dumbledore survived, the wand would perceive him as having the strength to fight off Voldemort's power, and would remain loyal to him. If he died of that curse, the wand would see it as his having been defeated by the superior magical power of Voldemort's curse, and would fall to him. If Dumbledore arranged to die in another way that did not constitute a defeat, he would die undefeated in the judgment of the wand (and that in my opinion was the effect Dumbledore was counting on, when he asked Snape to kill him). Snape's killing of Dumbledore would not count as a defeat, not because it was 'just a killing', but because Snape would have been acting in accordance with Dumbledore's will.

The intent to win the wand is clearly not necessary. Draco had no intention of winning Albus's wand; he was attempting to carry out his plan to kill him. Yet he became the master of the wand.
Well this is very interesting.

Going by that reasoning, was Dumbledore was killed by Voldemort; because he died because he had the curse of the ring and he drank the water from the basin, both set up by Voldemort? Or was the potion in the basin set up by Regulus? Which would count? Draco disarming Dumbledore or Dumbledore actually dying by Voldemort’s curse, for which there was no cure.

Very confusing Draco disarms; Dumbledore drinks potion and has curse of ring that caused his death and Snape who actually killed him.

By intent I meant the intent to win against the said person; Draco did not even know about the wand; but he defeated Dumbledore in a life and death situation; as does Harry, but I suppose we can say Dumbledore was also dealing with something that might take his life when he tackles the horcrux and it does actually.

Okay I’ve confused myself even more.

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If Snape knew, this could be a reason he attempted to approach Harry at Hogwarts, despite the fact that it was not time yet. (He had not seen Nagini in her bubble).
The moment Snape knew Harry was in Hogwarts, I think he wanted to see Harry and pass on Dumbledore’s message, just in case he is not able to do so later, is what I felt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
What, then, do you think is meant in the exchange between Harry and Dumbledore in King's Cross about things not working out? Snape is dead, and Voldemort thinks he is master of the Elder Wand, at the point that conversation takes place.

To me, what is being suggested is worse than aything I believe Dumbledore ever did to another Order member. Snape knew he was doing things without knowing all the facts, Dumbledore made that quite clear. I imagine the same was true of the Order members as well.

But what is being suggested is that Dubledore deliberately made a plan which required Snape's death to work. This is worse even than what he did to Harry, because he hoped Harry would live. It was not necessary for Harry to die, jsut for the soul bit to be destroyed.
In King’s Cross, it is Harry who tells Dumbledore he made a mistake of sorts and Dumbledore agrees is what I thought.

These words are most revealing IMO::

Quote:
posted by DH - King's Cross
‘If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elder wand, didn’t you?’

‘I admit that was my intention,’ Said Dumbledore, ‘but it did not work as I intended, did it?’

‘No,’ said Harry, ‘that bit did not work out.’
So we know Dumbledore deliberately intended Snape to end up with the elder wand, and because Dumbledore uses the words intended, he has realized why Ollivander went missing and also that his wand will somehow find its way to Voldemort. That means that when he asked Snape to kill him at the beginning of 6th years, he was planning for just about everything, including the implications of Voldemort possessing a wand that will not work for him, and the steps he will take to become the Elder wand’s complete Master.

What remains is ----- did he tell Snape?

I cannot find anything to say he did. That makes me very sad.


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  #111  
Old January 27th, 2008, 4:46 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
This is not accurate. The moment Voldemort states the wand he holds is the Elder Wand, taken from the grave of its former master, Dumbledore, Snape reacts strongly, and looks at him.

DH, "The Elder Wand""I took it from the gave of Albus Dumbledore."
And now Snape looked at Voldemort, and Snape's face was like a death mask. It was marble-white and so still that when he spoke, it was a shock to see that anyone lived behind the blank eyes.


Snape again makes a plea to let him go to look for Harry, but it is clear that he has taken in the information about the wand, and even drawn a conclusion without the aid of Voldemort's later explanation. (Namely, that he and thus any chance to get his message to Harry, are toast if he does not talk his way out of that room).

Voldemort then explains his reasoning for why he needs to kill Snape, and Snape does no more than protest feebly. ("My Lord!") This could be because no clever things to say to divert Voldemort from his course occur to him. But it seems clear to me he was at least aware of the problem.



I don't agree (or am misconstruing your statement). In my opinion he realizes he may be about to die in the bit I quoted. And he returns to the 'let me get Harry' spiel one last time after that. I think it is still his goal - just that it has become clear that he may not live to do so.
I think we are still on the same page here. I think Snape stops thinking about Harry right about at this point:
DH-Ch 32-pg 636 US ed"Perhaps you already know it? You are a clever man, after all, Severus. You have been a good and faithful servant, and I regret what must happen."
"My Lord - "
snip - Voldemort explains how the Elder Wand belongs to the wizard who killed its last owner.
"My Lord!" Snape protested, raising his wand.
"It cannot be any other way," said Voldemort.....
Snape never mentioned Harry again after Voldemort started to explain how the Elder Wand refuses to work as legend says it must.

Although, once Harry shows up, Snape uses his last bit of strength to give the memory to Harry and look into his eyes. It is rather sad.

So anyway, since this is the Snape-Dumbledore analysis,the point of this discussion was to help determine whether Snape understood what Dumbledore had done, which is try to die undefeated by having Snape kill him. Or did Snape die thinking that Dumbledore wanted him to be Master of the Elder Wand instead of Voldemort?
I tend to think it is the former rather than the latter.


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  #112  
Old January 27th, 2008, 7:46 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
WWB suggested that the plan was for Voldemort to have the wand, and believe himself its master by virtue of Snape's murder. That plan is not in effect if Snape is still alive. He suggested, even, that the delays Dumbledore threw in front of Harry, were to give Voldemort time to find the wand, figure out he needed to kill Snape, and then kill him. That's what I'm objecting to.
No, I wasn't suggesting that. I was discounting your "timing" theory that Dumbledore's plan was for Harry to hurry and destroy the Horcruxes so Snape could give him the message quickly before Voldemort had time to find the wand, thus possibly not be killed by Voldemort. I only pointed out that Dumbledore slowed Harry down and even said in Kings Cross he'd purposely slowed him down - so speed was definitely not Dumbledore's plan for Harry.

I don't know why Dumbledore was slowing Harry down - perhaps to save him from becoming too zealous over the Hallows? I think that is what Dumbledore said. No matter - my point was the last thing on Dumbledore's mind seemed to be helping Snape stay alive.

What do you think Dumbledore's plan was? Consider these things:

1. He asked Snape to kill him, believing the power of the Elder Wand would die with him.

2. He intended for Snape to end up with the wand.

3. He knew Voldemort would seek the wand.

4. He made Harry move slowly in destroying the Horcruxes.

5. He knew Voldemort would discover that to master the wand, he'd have to earn its allegiance.

6. He knew Voldemort would believe Snape the Master of the Elder Wand.

Put all of those facts together and in my opinion, there is no way Dumbledore didn't at least consider that Snape might be killed by Voldemort. If Snape knew about the Elder Wand, then he and Dumbledore were playing a dangerous game together and the contingency that Snape might die turned out to be true. Bad Planning on both their parts. If Dumbledore didn't tell Snape, then Snape would feel betrayed because Dumbledore was playing the dangerous game alone and with Snape's life in the balance - more so than Snape suspected. Bad Planning and callous treatment of Snape.

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As I see it, Dumbledore had no idea when Voldemort would track down the wand, and hoped it might be too late.
Right...but to support the idea that "Dumbledore hoped it would be too late", one would imagine Dumbledore trying to make that happen. He didn't, he did just the opposite. By slowing Harry he gave Voldemort more time. By not having Snape move the wand from his tomb, he shortened the search even more. So I ask, just how hard do you think Dumbledore as hoping for this? That is, what proof exists that Dumbledore thought this?

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And he may have entertainted the idea he would not kill a servant as useful as Snape seemed to be, if Voldemort realized from his research into the wand, that it was not necessary to kill the previous master to win the wand's loyalty.
In Snape's case, it would be necessary for Voldemort to kill Snape - unless Snape betrayed Voldemort. Because Snape could not (based on research) allow Voldemort to disarm him purposely, that would not work. He could not just hand it over, that would not work either. If Snape were truly loyal, as Voldemort believed, how would he possibly be able to "win" the wand's allegiance with Snape willing to give it to him? The only way was to kill Snape, imo. Dumbledore would have known that - Snape too, if he had known about the wand.


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That killing Dumbledore increased Snape's risks in one particular way that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about up front seems clear enough. I have, in fact, been defending Dumbledore's decision to do this earlier in the thread on the grounds that the whereabouts of the Elder Wand was a secret too important to tell someone who had such a high risk of capture as Snape.
Important yes, but more important than Snape being killed? Than Snape's life? Maybe - but isn't that something Snape should be a part of deciding?


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Old January 27th, 2008, 8:11 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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posted by SusanBones
So anyway, since this is the Snape-Dumbledore analysis,the point of this discussion was to help determine whether Snape understood what Dumbledore had done, which is try to die undefeated by having Snape kill him. Or did Snape die thinking that Dumbledore wanted him to be Master of the Elder Wand instead of Voldemort?
I tend to think it is the former rather than the latter.
In King's Cross, as I have mentioned in an earlier post, Dumbledore says he intended Snape to end up with his wand. So he has planned for that eventuality is what I feel.

Snape looked shocked, diverted from desperately wanting permission to seek out Harry and give him the message from Dumbledore. I really don't know what else to say, except Snape did not know.

Another thing that tells us Dumbledore was somehow sure Voldemort would seek the Elder wand is there in that chapter itself.

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posted by DH - King's Cross
'But you expected him to go after the wand?'

'I have been sure he would try, ever since your wand beat Voldemort's in the graveyard of Little Hangleton. At first, he was afraid, you had conquered him by superior skill. Once he had kidnapped Ollivander however, he discovered the existence of twin cores. He thought that explained everything. Yet the borrowed wand did no better against yours! So Voldmoert instead of asking himself what quality it ws in you that had made your wand so strong, what gift you possessed that he did not, naturally set out to find the one wand, they said, would beat anyother. For him the Elder wand has become an obsession to rival his obsession with you. He believes that the Elder wand removes his last weakness and makes him truly invincible. Poor Severus....'
From this we know that Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to go after the wand ever since the graveyard.

So he knows at the time he asks Snape to kill him that Voldemort would start the process of finding a wand that is invincible and if there was one, he would do anyting to attain it.

Poor Severus indeed.

Why did he say 'Poor Severus'? Any ideas....


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  #114  
Old January 27th, 2008, 2:19 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
From this we know that Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to go after the wand ever since the graveyard.

So he knows at the time he asks Snape to kill him that Voldemort would start the process of finding a wand that is invincible and if there was one, he would do anyting to attain it.

Poor Severus indeed.

Why did he say 'Poor Severus'? Any ideas....
I think you answered your own question. The hard, cold truth of the matter is that Dumbledore set Snape up to die, in my opinion. And the reason he said, "Poor Severus" is because he regretted having to use Snape in this way. But it was the only way he could think of to "null" the effects of the Elder Wand.

Dumbledore's plan, in my opinion, is very ingenious from a military point of view. He owns the ultimate weapon, the Elder Wand, which conveys great power to its master. He needs to negate that power so that no one else will be able to have it. His goal is to prevent another "Great Dark Wizard" from coming to power.

All is well with the wand until Dumbledore puts on the ring. Then he is hit with Voldemort's curse. That means that Voldemort would be the master of the wand if Dumbledore dies from the curse, in my opinion. Now Dumbledore must act. He has to find a way to nullify the wand before he dies. He knows that Snape is extremely loyal and capable of rather morally questionable things, in my opinion. I feel that most wizards would not be able to kill Dumbledore, especially when it came time to actually do it.

So I think his plan was brilliant. He tells Snape a story of how he would rather be killed than have Draco lose his soul and Fenrir and Bellatrix abuse him. I have always thought this was a pretty poor reason to be killed, which is why I had trouble believing that this was the real reason for the murder. And it turns out I was right about this It wasn't the real reason at all.

Dumbledore had heard that Voldemort wanted Draco to kill him. I doubt that Dumbledore ever thought Draco would be successful, but he knew that he could use this opportunity to diffuse the power of the Elder Wand. Draco was one of Snape's favorite students. Snape and Lucius were friends. Dumbledore knew that Snape may be willing to help a family he cared about. After all, wasn't Snape willing to do a lot of dangerous things because of his love for Lily. That willingness to act for people he loved was a tool Dumbledore had been taking advantage of for years.

So, there you have it. Dumbledore needed a job done. Snape proved to be the one person most likely to do the job. Past behavior predicts future behavior, as one well-known TV personality likes to say. Dumbledore used him to help win the war. Negating the power of the Elder Wand was key to the plan. Dumbledore knew Snape would be targeted by Voldemort. And he didn't tell him, because that could ruin the plan. Dumbledore could not take the chance that Snape would be seduced by the power of the wand if he knew the truth about it. There was no other way to do it, in my opinion. It was brilliant. Too bad it didn't work out the way Dumbledore expected it to work out. Draco got there first. But it worked out better that way in the long run, since then Harry ended up the master in a way Dumbledore could never have predicted. But that is a topic for a different thread.


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  #115  
Old January 27th, 2008, 6:26 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Well its very depressing. I had hoped that it would not be deliberate. But after reading King's Cross and everything, it looks like Dumbledore did set up Snape to die. I hope someone asks Jo about this. I would be very interested in her answer. If it is true, then I would also like to know why Dumbledore made that choice for him.

Quote:
posted by SusanBones
I think you answered your own question. The hard, cold truth of the matter is that Dumbledore set Snape up to die, in my opinion. And the reason he said, "Poor Severus" is because he regretted having to use Snape in this way. But it was the only way he could think of to "null" the effects of the Elder Wand.
Actually he could have told Snape about the Elder wand. It would not have harmed anything or any plan IMO. Only Dumbledore knew Draco was the MAster of the Elder wand. He could have just kept quiet and still have told Snape that he would be in danger of an attack from Voldemort because of this Elder wand.

Nothing would have changed. The wand would never work for Voldemort, even if he killed Snape, because Draco was the owner, and from him, Harry took over.


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  #116  
Old January 27th, 2008, 6:32 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
So, there you have it. Dumbledore needed a job done. Snape proved to be the one person most likely to do the job. Past behavior predicts future behavior, as one well-known TV personality likes to say. Dumbledore used him to help win the war. Negating the power of the Elder Wand was key to the plan. Dumbledore knew Snape would be targeted by Voldemort. And he didn't tell him, because that could ruin the plan. Dumbledore could not take the chance that Snape would be seduced by the power of the wand if he knew the truth about it. There was no other way to do it, in my opinion. It was brilliant. Too bad it didn't work out the way Dumbledore expected it to work out. Draco got there first. But it worked out better that way in the long run, since then Harry ended up the master in a way Dumbledore could never have predicted. But that is a topic for a different thread.
I agree it was a brilliant plan...but I can't help but imagine Dumbledore hunched over and emitting an evil cackle when he came up with it. If Snape was surprised that Dumbledore could 'raise Harry for the slaughter' - imagine his utter astonishment when he found out that Dumbledore had not only been using him all along, but was setting him up for destruction.

The only thing that went wrong was that Snape didn't "have" the wand. However, that leaves me wondering what would have happened if all had gone according to Dumbledore's plan. Snape would have hid the wand? No matter, if Voldemort had come up empty at the tomb he would have headed straight for Snape. Legilimens aside, Voldemort would have used everything in his arsenal - including torture to find out the location - and to the death if Snape didn't tell him (because he'd fear Snape was hiding it in order to kill him and take his place). Voldemort knew Snape was a great occulmens - that is how Snape was supposedly fooling Dumbledore throughout the years - so he'd know Snape could use it on him as well. If Snape were dead, Voldemort might never find the wand if Snape had hid it well enough but then what? At their final meeting, Voldemort would be stronger than Harry and his chances of survival next to none. I don't think that is what Dumbledore had in mind.

The whole point, imo, was to have Voldemort in possession of the Elder Wand which he believed would give him the 'advantage' and in reality made him vulnerable because it would not work well for him (as its power was supposed to die with Voldemort). The only way that was possible was for Voldemort to believe himself Master by winning it from its old owner - Snape - and likely if Snape was to 'have it', then he was to get it to Voldemort somehow. And if that is not setting Snape up to die, I don't know what is. I rarely defend Snape - actually next to never - but in this case, Dumbledore betrayed Snape callously and imo, there is no question about it.


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  #117  
Old January 27th, 2008, 6:38 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Well its very depressing. I had hoped that it would not be deliberate. But after reading King's Cross and everything, it looks like Dumbledore did set up Snape to die. I hope someone asks Jo about this. I would be very interested in her answer. If it is true, then I would also like to know why Dumbledore made that choice for him.
Dumbledore was thinking more about his plan and how it would be executed than the actual lives of the people his plan imvolved. Personally, I do not think he cared for Snape very much, and viewed him as another chess piece in his game. If Dumbledore had not wanted Snape to be killed by Voldemort, then he would not have asked Snape to kill him. The main goals of Dumbledore's deal with Snape to kill him were: 1. To have the power of the Elder Wand die with Dumbledore, and 2. To lead Voldemort to believe that Snape was the Master of the Wand and then kill him for it.

After King's Cross, it certainly did look like Snape had been intended to die by Dumbledore. Why he did that is something I had a bit of trouble figuring out. I came to the conclusion that if Voldemort had never suspected Snape of being the Master, he would have looked to the other suspects, the ones who had been on top of the Tower. Obviously, Malfoy was one of those people and Malfoy was the true Master of the Wand. If Voldemort had figured that it was Malfoy, he would have been killed immediately. Dumbledore did not want Malfoy to be killed, so he offerec him protection on the Tower. By making it look like Snape was the Master of the Wand, Malfoy would escape Voldemort's notice and have a better chance of survival.

This made me realize something odd, though. Dumbledore offered to protect Malfoy from Voldemort. He had no problem letting Harry and Snape die, however. Malfoy had done nothing to help Dumbledore, while Snape and Harry definately had. Why would Dumbledore do this? I know that he pitied Malfoy and didn't for Snape, but you can't simply allow someone to be killed just because you don't pity them. I don't get why Dumbledore offered to protect him.


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  #118  
Old January 27th, 2008, 6:41 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Well its very depressing. I had hoped that it would not be deliberate. But after reading King's Cross and everything, it looks like Dumbledore did set up Snape to die. I hope someone asks Jo about this. I would be very interested in her answer. If it is true, then I would also like to know why Dumbledore made that choice for him.
I prefer to think that this is one of those things that Jo didn't entirely think through. Dumbledore didn't intend Snape to die.

Either that, or the natural (intended) course of events was this:

1. Draco doesn't disarm Dumbledore.
2. Snape kills Dumbledore. Because this was arranged between them, the power of the Elder Wand dies. (nb--I am uncertain whether Jo/Dumbledore really intended for Snape to take Dumbledore's wand, or for it to be buried with him--this could be an editing error--after all, we have heard more than once that wabds are buried with wizards).
3. Harry snaps up Horcruxes.
4. Before Voldemort figures it out, either Harry confronts Snape, or Snape goes to Harry after seeing Nagini caged. Perhaps Dumbledore even thought that Harry would nab Severus when the Sword was passed.
5. Harry defeats and captures Snape (it's easy for Dumbkledore to anticipate that Harry might even go after Snape single-mindedly)--thereby leading Voldemort to believe that Harry is the true master of the Elder Wand--when in fact, no one is. Therefore, Voldemort thinks he has more incentive to go after Harry.

Even more Machiavellian, but that's who Jo painted Dumbledore to be.


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  #119  
Old January 27th, 2008, 6:43 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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The whole point, imo, was to have Voldemort in possession of the Elder Wand which he believed would give him the 'advantage' and in reality made him vulnerable because it would not work well for him (as its power was supposed to die with Voldemort). The only way that was possible was for Voldemort to believe himself Master by winning it from its old owner - Snape. And if that is not setting Snape up to die, I don't know what is.
I agree. In KC chapter, Dumbledore uses the words 'it was my intention' implying that he did want to make sure Snape ended with the Elder wand. And again in the same chapter he says he has known since the graveyard in GOF that Voldmeort would hunt for an unbeatable wand and that obsessions would be as great as his obsession with Harry.

Snape would have IMO never changed his actions even if he knew about the Elder wand and the books IMO would have still read the way they do right now.

Quote:
posted by IgoRetla
I prefer to think that this is one of those things that Jo didn't entirely think through. Dumbledore didn't intend Snape to die.
If it was, then it's sad, because it has not come into canon.


Quote:
1. Draco doesn't disarm Dumbledore.
2. Snape kills Dumbledore. Because this was arranged between them, the power of the Elder Wand dies. (nb--I am uncertain whether Jo/Dumbledore really intended for Snape to take Dumbledore's wand, or for it to be buried with him--this could be an editing error--after all, we have heard more than once that wabds are buried with wizards).
3. Harry snaps up Horcruxes.
4. Before Voldemort figures it out, either Harry confronts Snape, or Snape goes to Harry after seeing Nagini caged. Perhaps Dumbledore even thought that Harry would nab Severus when the Sword was passed.
5. Harry defeats and captures Snape (it's easy for Dumbkledore to anticipate that Harry might even go after Snape single-mindedly)--thereby leading Voldemort to believe that Harry is the true master of the Elder Wand--when in fact, no one is. Therefore, Voldemort thinks he has more incentive to go after Harry.

Even more Machiavellian, but that's who Jo painted Dumbledore to be.
If it was something like this, it would be great; but Snape IMO would be killed by Voldemort for losing to Harry. This would be very complicated to arrange. Even if Harry won the wand, how will Voldmeort come to know Harry is the new master? He will still kill Snape on the old premise. What can Snape tell Voldmeort about defeating Harry? I really don't think this is an option.

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posted by deathly721
Dumbledore was thinking more about his plan and how it would be executed than the actual lives of the people his plan imvolved. Personally, I do not think he cared for Snape very much, and viewed him as another chess piece in his game. If Dumbledore had not wanted Snape to be killed by Voldemort, then he would not have asked Snape to kill him. The main goals of Dumbledore's deal with Snape to kill him were: 1. To have the power of the Elder Wand die with Dumbledore, and 2. To lead Voldemort to believe that Snape was the Master of the Wand and then kill him for it.
So just because he did not care for Snape, how can his sctions to kill Snape be justified. If that's all is necesary, then there is not much difference between Dumbledore and Voldemort IMO.

Viewing him as another chess piece; well that's what is disturbing, because I think he made the choices for Snape. And really does he have the right to?


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  #120  
Old January 27th, 2008, 8:36 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by IgoRetla View Post
2. Snape kills Dumbledore. Because this was arranged between them, the power of the Elder Wand dies. (nb--I am uncertain whether Jo/Dumbledore really intended for Snape to take Dumbledore's wand, or for it to be buried with him--this could be an editing error--after all, we have heard more than once that wabds are buried with wizards).
This is what I figured too. I think Dumbledore planned to tell Snape to retrieve the wand to either keep it, or hide it, once the wand was neutralized. Only, it never was, and that was when Dumbledore's portrait departed from the original plan.

Quote:
4. Before Voldemort figures it out, either Harry confronts Snape, or Snape goes to Harry after seeing Nagini caged. Perhaps Dumbledore even thought that Harry would nab Severus when the Sword was passed.
This last, I doubt. He warned Snape (why warn him, if he hoped Snape would get nabbed?) and Snape replied he had a plan. I think Dumbledroe probably has a high enough opinion of Snape's intellect to figure he can make a plan that will not get him caught by Harry.

Quote:
5. Harry defeats and captures Snape (it's easy for Dumbkledore to anticipate that Harry might even go after Snape single-mindedly)--thereby leading Voldemort to believe that Harry is the true master of the Elder Wand--when in fact, no one is. Therefore, Voldemort thinks he has more incentive to go after Harry.
Interesting idea, but I have my doubts. Dumbledore should have evinced more interest in Snape's plans to accomplish his bits of the plan, if this were truly what Dumbledore was after. Based on the actual events in DH, Snape seems to have a plan up his sleeve that would make it possible for him to pass his message without even coming into personal contact with Harry - he has established his Patronus as an ally of Harry's, and might be planning to use that to communicate.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
If it was, then it's sad, because it has not come into canon.

It is not canon that Dumbledore deliberately arrnaged the murder of Snape, either. This is just a deduction you and others are making from the canon facts. Even if you are truly right that your view is the most logical deduction from the facts at hand, we still do not know that this is the thought process Dumbledore followed, because he barely touched on this part of the plan in his discussion with Harry. Dumbledore has been known to make mistakes.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Well its very depressing. I had hoped that it would not be deliberate. But after reading King's Cross and everything, it looks like Dumbledore did set up Snape to die. I hope someone asks Jo about this. I would be very interested in her answer. If it is true, then I would also like to know why Dumbledore made that choice for him.
Whether he deliberately planned for Snape to be killed (so Voldemort would falsely believe himself Master of the Wand), or whether he merely used Snape to neutralize the wand despite the increased risk to Snape (in the event Voldemort put everything together and came after Snape before Snape was done with his other missions), I think his rationale would be the same. Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect Harry from Voldemort; and this is the goal of the Elder Wand plan, in all the myriad versions of it we are tossing about.


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