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  #201  
Old January 20th, 2008, 11:00 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Quick question - in the US is a realtor the same as our UK estate agent?


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  #202  
Old January 20th, 2008, 11:51 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

I expect so. We also call them "real estate agents" (though, I've never heard anyone say "estate agent" without putting "real" in front of it).

According to the dictionary on Answers.com, a "realtor" is specifically a real estate agent who is a member of the National Association of Realtors (NAR). --> http://www.answers.com/realtor&r=67


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  #203  
Old January 21st, 2008, 2:51 am
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
And really, would you rather have a surgeon with a high success rate, or a surgeon who never splits infinitives?
That's the whole point I'm making. It obviously doesn't matter how a person speaks, because it doesn't truly reflect their talents or personalities or anything. But the societal stigma still remains, whether you think it's right or not. No matter where the rules come from I think they should be taught and followed by people who want to be successful, not because they came down from on high on golden tablets, but because they are a means to an end. Until you can change the perceptions of the entire world you have to work with them. If you don't care, then don't care! It's a free country. But your only choices are to try to adapt, ignore it, or try to change perceptions. Someone with blue hair, piercings, and tattoos can be a great person, but nobody in the near future is going to make them president--for good or for ill.

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Originally Posted by MC2456 View Post
LOL...Kala...what's your picture all about? The picture under the msg.
... HBP nod


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  #204  
Old January 21st, 2008, 9:36 am
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Re: "separated by a common language"

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Originally Posted by kala_way View Post

... HBP nod
I see...it looks kinda like Snape and Remus if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Lyra Black View Post
Double negative are completely acceptable. Sure, I can think of wrong examples (such as: "I don't want nothing") but I can also think of wrong examples of sentences containing no negatives. Basically, it's wrong to use two negatives to mean a negative, but using two negatives to mean a positive isn't necessarily wrong. Some of these correct ones would be considered informal while others are acceptable in formal language.

Consider this quote from Prince William (and if anyone speaks proper English it's the royal family! ):
"There isn't a day when I don't think about her."
I don't think there is anything wrong with this sentence. In addition it's not equivalent to "I think about her every day". In my opinion, the former conveys a compulsion and an inability to avoid the thoughts of her, while the latter does not. Other examples include "I cannot disagree", "He cannot stand there and do nothing" and "She wasn't unhappy", which are not equivalent in meaning to "I agree", "He can do something" or "She was happy". You could also legitimately say "Not unlike..." or "Not without..." which are both double negatives.

Yes, even in HP, we have a lot of double negatives, like in SS/PS, where Dumbledore compares Harry's and Draco's relationship (or lack of) to Snape's and James. "...not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy"

And I remember, once, I wrote double negatives in an English paper (my own made-up one of course!), my teacher gave me a point extra!

I think it's not difficult to spot double negatives. My English teacher tells me to cancel out the negatives and stuff like that. It's like Maths, y'know? I mean, if you put two negatives by each other -(-a), it's the same as saying +a, right?


  #205  
Old January 21st, 2008, 6:45 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MC2456 View Post
Yes, even in HP, we have a lot of double negatives, like in SS/PS, where Dumbledore compares Harry's and Draco's relationship (or lack of) to Snape's and James. "...not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy"

And I remember, once, I wrote double negatives in an English paper (my own made-up one of course!), my teacher gave me a point extra!

I think it's not difficult to spot double negatives. My English teacher tells me to cancel out the negatives and stuff like that. It's like Maths, y'know? I mean, if you put two negatives by each other -(-a), it's the same as saying +a, right?
There are several different ways of looking at double negatives. One common device in English is the litotes, which is a form of understatement. For example, rather than calling something desirable, you would say "not undesirable" if you want to understate the matter--that is, instead of stating that you desire something, you deny that the opposite is true. What Dumbledore is saying is that there are some similarities between the two relationships, but he won't go so far as to say they're a one-to-one match. He could say this in other ways, explaining some certain similarities and differences, but the understatement is an elegant way of saying what he means.

Another oft-reported double-negative situation is what I think you're describing there, with two negatives canceling each other. But this not always the case. Just like litotes, the use of two negatives in a certain configuration can carry a meaning like understatement. Compare the following sentences and think about which one seems more certain and which one seems doubtful.

"He's a nice guy."
"He's not not a nice guy."

The double negative there is certainly nonstandard, but it has an important function in emphasizing that the subject is not totally polarized--he's neither undeniably nice nor totally mean. Once again, there are other ways of expressing this, but the double not is a convenient way to insert doubt in a sentence where you've already begun as a negative. If for example I'm searching for something to say, and I want to say that the man in question is not mean, I may begin "he's not..." but if it occurs to me that he's not really nice either, I may settle on a double negative to get this across, since one way to imply meanness is to say someone is "not a nice guy." Doubling up on words like this is something we like to do in English, and I can think of several dozen examples if pressed. "Home" versus "home home," "like" versus "like like," "dead" versus "dead dead," and these are especially meaningful when dealing with words that can have several connotations. If I'm renting an apartment, I may call it home, but the house my parents live in will always be home, so I say "home home" to emphasize the ultimate statues of the latter. The same with "like like," where "liking" someone in a general sense is contrasted with "liking" someone in a romantic way. But I'm getting off topic.

The final instructive case for double negatives I'll present is when a negative doesn't actually negate anything at all. I've posted this before, but why not rehash it. Look at these example sentences, and see how they compare. I think you'll find most English speakers would have to agree each A and B set has roughly the same meaning.

A "Henry didn't take the trash out, I don't think."
B "Henry didn't take the trash out, I think."

A "I wonder whether we can go to the movies."
B "I wonder whether we can't go to the movies."

A "That'll teach Davey to poke a beehive."
B "That'll teach Davey not to poke a beehive."

A "He couldn't care less about your laundry."
B "He could care less about your laundry."

In these examples, the presence of an added negative morpheme doesn't really affect the meaning, but why is that? If a purely mathematical approach to deciphering these sentences is to be applied, the meanings could end up being quite different. Yet they aren't in most situations, so take what you have learned with a grain of salt, because the contents of grammar books are often several decades (or centuries) behind what people are actually saying.


  #206  
Old January 21st, 2008, 8:53 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger1 View Post
Quick question - in the US is a realtor the same as our UK estate agent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pox Voldius View Post
I expect so. We also call them "real estate agents" (though, I've never heard anyone say "estate agent" without putting "real" in front of it).

According to the dictionary on Answers.com, a "realtor" is specifically a real estate agent who is a member of the National Association of Realtors (NAR). --> http://www.answers.com/realtor&r=67
A real estate broker is the same as an estate agent. A real estate agent is an assistant to a real estate broker. You have to become a broker before you can operate your own company. It takes more experience and you have to pass another test.


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  #207  
Old January 23rd, 2008, 11:37 am
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
There are several different ways of looking at double negatives. One common device in English is the litotes, which is a form of understatement. For example, rather than calling something desirable, you would say "not undesirable" if you want to understate the matter--that is, instead of stating that you desire something, you deny that the opposite is true. What Dumbledore is saying is that there are some similarities between the two relationships, but he won't go so far as to say they're a one-to-one match. He could say this in other ways, explaining some certain similarities and differences, but the understatement is an elegant way of saying what he means.

Another oft-reported double-negative situation is what I think you're describing there, with two negatives canceling each other. But this not always the case. Just like litotes, the use of two negatives in a certain configuration can carry a meaning like understatement. Compare the following sentences and think about which one seems more certain and which one seems doubtful.

"He's a nice guy."
"He's not not a nice guy."

The double negative there is certainly nonstandard, but it has an important function in emphasizing that the subject is not totally polarized--he's neither undeniably nice nor totally mean. Once again, there are other ways of expressing this, but the double not is a convenient way to insert doubt in a sentence where you've already begun as a negative. If for example I'm searching for something to say, and I want to say that the man in question is not mean, I may begin "he's not..." but if it occurs to me that he's not really nice either, I may settle on a double negative to get this across, since one way to imply meanness is to say someone is "not a nice guy." Doubling up on words like this is something we like to do in English, and I can think of several dozen examples if pressed. "Home" versus "home home," "like" versus "like like," "dead" versus "dead dead," and these are especially meaningful when dealing with words that can have several connotations. If I'm renting an apartment, I may call it home, but the house my parents live in will always be home, so I say "home home" to emphasize the ultimate statues of the latter. The same with "like like," where "liking" someone in a general sense is contrasted with "liking" someone in a romantic way. But I'm getting off topic.

The final instructive case for double negatives I'll present is when a negative doesn't actually negate anything at all. I've posted this before, but why not rehash it. Look at these example sentences, and see how they compare. I think you'll find most English speakers would have to agree each A and B set has roughly the same meaning.

A "Henry didn't take the trash out, I don't think."
B "Henry didn't take the trash out, I think."

A "I wonder whether we can go to the movies."
B "I wonder whether we can't go to the movies."

A "That'll teach Davey to poke a beehive."
B "That'll teach Davey not to poke a beehive."

A "He couldn't care less about your laundry."
B "He could care less about your laundry."

In these examples, the presence of an added negative morpheme doesn't really affect the meaning, but why is that? If a purely mathematical approach to deciphering these sentences is to be applied, the meanings could end up being quite different. Yet they aren't in most situations, so take what you have learned with a grain of salt, because the contents of grammar books are often several decades (or centuries) behind what people are actually saying.
LOL! Chimalogy. In my country, it means..uh...very profound. Well, good job, by the way!


  #208  
Old February 9th, 2008, 5:45 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Well, I've learned loads from this thread. Thank you, guys! Oh, and um, why is a pram and a baby carriage different, and which country are they called as such?


  #209  
Old February 9th, 2008, 5:55 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

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Originally Posted by MC2456 View Post
Well, I've learned loads from this thread. Thank you, guys! Oh, and um, why is a pram and a baby carriage different, and which country are they called as such?
I've never even heard of someone use the phrase baby carriage. In Ireland we use pram so I take it that's the word used in Britain too if that's any use to you.


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  #210  
Old February 9th, 2008, 8:38 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Baby carriage is the American term.



But "baby carriage" is kind of old-fashioned (both the term and the contraption it refers to).

A "stroller" is more common.


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  #211  
Old February 10th, 2008, 8:09 am
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pox Voldius View Post
A "stroller" is more common.
Which, in Britain, is called a pushchair.


  #212  
Old February 10th, 2008, 12:54 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Or a buggy.


  #213  
Old February 11th, 2008, 1:47 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Ok. I better correct myself. Pram or buggy is what we use for stroller (rather than for baby carriage, which either way we don't use).


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  #214  
Old February 19th, 2008, 2:15 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Oh ok..thanks. What do you call pandan in English?


  #215  
Old February 19th, 2008, 5:24 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Pandan? you've got me completely stumped ... give us a bit more of a clue


  #216  
Old February 19th, 2008, 5:53 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

The only pandan I can think of is pandanus leaf used in Asian cooking.


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  #217  
Old February 19th, 2008, 9:50 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

I checked Pandan on Wiki.
Quote:
Pandan cake is a light, fluffy cake of Malay origins (Indonesia, Malaysia, The Philippines) flavored with the juice of Pandanus amaryllifolius leaves. The cakes are light green in tone due to the chlorophyll in the leaf juice. It also sometimes contains green food colouring to further enhance its colour. The cakes are sometimes not made with the leaf juice but instead simply flavoured with pandanus extract, in which case, colouring must be added to give the cake a green colour.
It is popular in Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand, and China. It is also known as pandan chiffon.
Immigrant groups usually keep the name no matter what country they move to, right?


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  #218  
Old February 19th, 2008, 11:12 pm
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Thankyou TheInvisibleF - we certainly don't have this in the UK. Sounds good. Does anyone know what it tastes like? On the principle that all cake is good, and really good cake is even better ...


  #219  
Old February 20th, 2008, 8:12 am
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Sorry I was vague. Pandan, yes, it is a leaf which we Asians use in our cooking. Curries, rice, certain desserts like green bean soup, and sometimes even jelly as well, have pandan extract. We even have pandan flavored buns/Japanese cakes. Anyway, for more info, do read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandanus_amaryllifolius

ginger1, answering your question, Pandan chiffon cake is nice. I have been eating it all my life, so I know! It's so fragrant and fluffy, so big a slice, yet it's not really filling at all. You should try it someday, if you come to Asia, that is!

Anyway, I do so like this forum because you can share your culture with people. And is there no English word for Pandan?


  #220  
Old February 20th, 2008, 8:20 am
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Re: "separated by a common language"

Quote:
And is there no English word for Pandan?
Yes - we call it Pandan (English consistently steals words from other languages where we do not have an equivalent.)


 
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