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  #261  
Old June 18th, 2011, 11:43 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

There are really book spoilers in this thread?


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  #262  
Old June 18th, 2011, 11:59 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberEight View Post
There are really book spoilers in this thread?
There shouldn't be, but there is nothing in my post that is not in the first book or the first TV series. (The series actually emphasizes Lyanna a bit more than the book did!)

Book spoilers!
Spoiler: show
We get a little more detail in the later books, but most of what we know about Lyanna is from Ned in book #1. The "promise" bit in particular was something that Ned kept close secret.

Needless to say, Jon Snow's parentage is a topic of great interest to Martin fans, so the connection between this question and what happened with Lyanna has gotten a lot of speculation. However, part of the speculation now is, with Ned dead, how will Jon learn about his mother? (This question is just as applicable to the novels after 4 books as it is to the TV series after one season....)

Incidentally, this usually is called the R+L=J theory. The last book disappointed a lot of people because it did nothing to corroborate or refute the idea; perhaps Dance with Dragons will! And, of course, there is the question: how will the TV series keep the issue of who Jon's mother is fresh in people's minds without making it too protracted?


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Last edited by Moriath; June 19th, 2011 at 8:44 am.
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  #263  
Old June 19th, 2011, 8:42 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Wimsey, this should all go into the respective thread in the fiction forum, as all of what you've laid out is not clear and obvious in the series and, unfortunately, you're spoiling show fans without having the courtesy to use spoiler tags. I edited them into your post and would kindly ask everyone who's also a book fan to be careful with book spoilers and what one considers common and obvious. Thank you!


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  #264  
Old June 19th, 2011, 3:43 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

[staff edit: discussing thread logistics]


Incidentally, I acquired the Game of Thrones soundtrack. The music works very well on the show, and it's very enjoyable on its own.


EDIT: Well, the finale was quite well done, I thought. Like a lot of people, I had wondered how they would handle it: the obvious "climax" precedes more subtle climaxes, but I thought that they carried both off with aplomb. And the dragons looked good! (I had worried about that.)


On the whole, I have to give the season high marks. As an adaptation, I'd rate it as follows:
Better than the Book
Arya: she's actually pretty kick-gluteus in the book (especially compared to her dreadful sister!), but the series really played her well. The small tweaks ratcheted up the character nicely. The young lady playing Arya did a great job, too.

Robb: Unlike Arya, Robb is not a protagonist in the book, and it's quite possible that he benefited from the change in medium as much as anything else. However, it seemed easier to follow him and relate to him than it did in the book, where he seems distant;

Dany: They did the transformation from token princess to girl-queen magnificently; she really managed to seem commanding in the end, and also somewhat sympathetic.
As good as the Book:
Ned: In the end, they did a great job of capturing the quandary of a moral purist trapped between conflicting absolutes;

Tyrion: he's the comic relief and the intelligent wit of the book quite well performed and directed;

Cersei: yes, she was that loathsome in the book, too; the perpetual knowing sneer on her face was something that a book just cannot provide, too;

King Robert: there is a plus and minus here that balances; he's more concerned than he is in the book, which simultaneously adds and subtracts from his character (if that makes any sense!);

The Varys & Littlefinger Show: These two are every bit as interesting and amusing as they were in the book, and they set up great contrasts with Ned: one is essentially an amoral Machiavellian, whereas the other is totally loyal to the abstract concept of realm rather than the individual people; thus, you get two polar opposites of Ned who are also polar opposites of each other!

Jon Snow (but see below!): I think that they did a great job of showing just how awkward his position was, yet how much he cared for his father's family. Like Ned, Jon is used wonderfully to show how moral absolutes can often contradict.
Worse than the book (and these really are small things):
The Dire Wolves!: First, they should be a lot bigger than they are! Second, they just were not as prominent as they could have been, but that's really a small issue, and I suppose that we don't need a Dire Wolf documentary, anyway.... :-(

Sansa: This is almost a +/- like King Robert, but her character did seem watered down. Part of it might be the actress, or the combination of actress & direction; now, one could argue that make her less shallow and unintelligent "improves" her character on one sense, I'm not sure that it improved her character in a story-telling sense. (There is one particular omission that might gall book fans, too.)

Who is Jon Snow's Mother?: Somewhat like Rowling, Martin introduces one major mystery per book, and this one is "Jon Snow." They actually do 2/3rds of the mystery very well, and I think that they did those two quite well. (One idea is considered explicitly in book and series; the other idea is supported by a large number of details presented in both). However, many readers of the books had supported a 3rd idea: and by completely omitting that idea, they have pretty much eliminated it. This is particularly surprising that this, like Wyala, is an idea bandied by characters in the book. In short, I think that they've actually spoiled the book series somewhat! (I have not frequented a George Martin group since shortly after the 3rd book came out, and that group no longer exists; however, I did check a couple of others, and it seems that the renewed fandom has tossed in the towel on the 3rd idea because of the series.)
Still, on the whole, this adaptation was very entertaining and very good at capturing the author's story. I must admit, it has very much renewed my interest in the series. (The last book came out in 2005, so it had fallen out of mind over the years.) I am very intrigued by what will come in Season 2. I really did worry that the show would become completely bogged down with excess characters and just become an incomprehensible mess, but it managed to avoid that. (Yes, I did have the advantage of having read the books, but it really had been a very long time; if anything, it probably hindered my viewing at this point!)


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Last edited by Wimsey; June 20th, 2011 at 12:54 pm.
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  #265  
Old June 20th, 2011, 2:37 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Holy smokes! what a great way to end the season. There was so much going on though, and cant believe we now have to wait an entire year to see more. (and i really hope we get more than 10 episodes next season!)

Some stand out moments
Sansa - glad she finally decided to stand up for herself, and realized that joffrey is a pain in the rear. Its a shame it took her father dying for her to see this.

Daenrys.... wow so much to be said about her
Spoiler: show
First, her finale moments with Khal were really touching, and im sad that she put him out of his misery, but i understand why she did it.

I like that she's stepped out and taken control of her situation and her destiny. The funeral pyre scene spoke volumes for who her character is becoming.

DRAGONS!! Ok let me just say i have not read the books, but ive been waiting for those eggs to hatch since they came into the picture and the minute i saw he place them in the fire i knew this had to be it. And boy was that ever a dramatic scene, her walking straight into the fire then emerging from that ashes the next morning with 3 baby dragons! WOW! Im really intrigued to see how this comes into play next season.

She is definitely going to be a force to be reckoned with!


is it spring 2012 yet?


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  #266  
Old June 20th, 2011, 8:09 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

I thought the season finale was, by far, the greatest episode of the season. It just had so many great scenes including my favorite scene from the books the King in the North scene which literally gave me chills to watch. Some of the other great scenes were the two Night's Watch scenes where Green, Pyp and Sam stopped Jon from defecting from the Night's Watch and brought him back by reminding him of his vows and they certainly left us wanting more by leaving us right where the season started and going beyond the Wall. And perhaps the scene that impressed me the most was Dany's parting scene. The Dragons! The dragons were so much better looking than I ever could have imagined and just watching that scene the words "and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons" just came into my head and the scene was a perfect translation.

As for the season entirely, they really did not disappoint. They made, IMO, the best translation they could have given ten hours to squeeze it all into. And I seriously applaud them for bringing this great story to life and in ways making it even greater. It is certainly going to be a hard wait for the play to resume next spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacecadet View Post
(and i really hope we get more than 10 episodes next season!)
I think it has been confirmed that next season will be another 10-episode season.


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  #267  
Old June 20th, 2011, 8:56 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

I also agree that the finale was fantastic. I have recently finished the first book as well, so I will be onto the second one soon.

The dragon scene with Dany was probably my favorite. I thought it was done so well and close to how I imagined when reading the book. I hate that we have to wait till next Spring. Seems so far away.


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  #268  
Old June 21st, 2011, 12:14 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
I think it has been confirmed that next season will be another 10-episode season.
Indeed, filming starts in July in Northern Ireland. Martin himself will be writing a couple of episodes, it is said: he used to write for TV, so this is not surprising.

Hopefully we'll get casting news soon, too.

Another interesting casting will be for a woman who is supposed to be quite homely. As Moe noted on the Simpsons, there is a big difference between "Hollywood ugly" and "ugly ugly." (Emma Watson is Hollywood's idea of "plain," after all....)


Filming starts soon, so we'll probably be hearing soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alwaysme View Post
I also agree that the finale was fantastic. I have recently finished the first book as well, so I will be onto the second one soon.
Read quickly! Book 5 (A Dance with Dragons) is due out in mid-July! (Martin makes Rowling look, well, not succinct, but not particularly long-winded, either!)


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Last edited by Wimsey; June 21st, 2011 at 12:17 am.
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  #269  
Old June 21st, 2011, 9:16 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

My mind was blown by the 9th episode, and I'm not surprised considering HBO's series often climax in the episode before the season Finale. I can't wait for the scale of next season, as they basically set the table this year.


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  #270  
Old June 21st, 2011, 9:26 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Indeed, filming starts in July in Northern Ireland. Martin himself will be writing a couple of episodes, it is said: he used to write for TV, so this is not surprising.
I believe he'll be writing one episode, as he did this season. And that episode is the one centered around (book spoiler)
Spoiler: show
The Battle of the Blackwater


ETA: Episode 10 reached a series high in ratings. Raking in 3 million viewers for the initial viewing plus another 900,000 for the 11pm viewing bringing the night's total to 3.9 million viewers. By far the highest rated episode of the series. I'll be interested to see if the weekly viewing numbers show such a bump as well, they seem to average around 8 million viewers per week.



Last edited by Lord Godric; June 21st, 2011 at 9:29 pm.
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  #271  
Old June 21st, 2011, 10:26 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

you know, when i first saw the 12 minutes behind the scenes, I still didn't really understood what the whole thing was about. Then I saw some scenes from the tournament and I thought the the game of thrones was an actual game, where each House must participate with some "players", and the lord of the winning house gets to be king on the Iron Throne.


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  #272  
Old June 22nd, 2011, 12:15 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

The part that dissapointed me was MMD explaining why she did what she did, she had a lot more emotion in the book.


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  #273  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 12:25 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Here is a question for book readers.
Spoiler: show
Can we dismiss the Ashara Dayne hypothesis now? It seems like this was the 2nd most popular idea after R+L=J. Almost all of the book clues were included, or had cinematic analogs. However, whereas the certainly strawman Wyalia was introduced, Ashara was never mentioned.

10 years ago, I was a bit of an advocate for R+L=J. I now feel like my idea won by forfeit: the other team never even showed up! In a way, that disappoints me.....
Thoughts?


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  #274  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 7:38 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Spoiler: show
Can we dismiss the Ashara Dayne hypothesis now? It seems like this was the 2nd most popular idea after R+L=J.
Spoiler: show
Frankly, I don't know any fan who ever advocated this theory.


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  #275  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 7:54 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Spoiler: show
Frankly, I don't know any fan who ever advocated this theory.
Spoiler: show
I also never saw very deep discussion of the theory, nonetheless people seem to enjoy to advocate it although there is not much to discuss yet. To be honest I avoided the threads who discussed it myself. Seemed a bit of too easy to me to set 2-3 hints not-so-hidden into the books, compared to other devices GRRM set.

I'm not sure that the tv series did yet exclude the theory by not mentioning her though.


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  #276  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 1:08 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

1 episode off finale but I am just blown away in general terms by the scale and attention to detail of the series so far, I'm really tempted to take up the books and read them from cover to cover but part of me is enjoying the show too much for that.

looking forward to the finale big time, by all accounts I've something to really look forward to


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  #277  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 5:08 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Spoiler: show
Frankly, I don't know any fan who ever advocated this theory.
Spoiler: show
If you were on a discussion group like this one 10 years ago, then it probably was the 2nd most popular idea after Rhaegar + Lyanna. Of course, the fandom has really wilted since then: the 5 year gap before Crows was too much.

And, of course, the last book offered almost nothing save a testimonial from Dayne's nephew, who shared Wyalla as a milk-mother with Jon. My old group is long gone (again, that 5-year gap killed things!), but the couple of groups I've checked out since seem to have pretty much gone with R+L=J; however, I have not checked to see if the TV series has affected things. (If A+E=J really has died, then there would be no crowing or wailing a la the Shippers after Prince.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
Spoiler: show
I also never saw very deep discussion of the theory, nonetheless people seem to enjoy to advocate it although there is not much to discuss yet. To be honest I avoided the threads who discussed it myself. Seemed a bit of too easy to me to set 2-3 hints not-so-hidden into the books, compared to other devices GRRM set.

I'm not sure that the tv series did yet exclude the theory by not mentioning her though.
Spoiler: show
Everything that we get supporting Ashara as Jon's mother really comes from the first book. Both Catelyn and Cersei think that Ashara is Jon's mother. Early in the book, Catelyn recalls confronting Ned with this years before, and discovering that the topic was verboten. Towards the end, Cersei throws it at him in Ned & her "garden" meeting, noting that the supposedly "honorable" Ned Stark not only fathered a *******, but that Ashara committed suicide as a result. We really don't hear much of her after that, and the situations for bringing it into the narrative will need to be contrived. The series did very well at developing the question, and it was almost heavy-handed in the suggestions that there was more to the circumstances than met the eye; this really was the time to put out any cards that it intended to use.


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  #278  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 5:17 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Spoiler: show
Frankly, I don't know any fan who ever advocated this theory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
Spoiler: show
I also never saw very deep discussion of the theory, nonetheless people seem to enjoy to advocate it although there is not much to discuss yet. To be honest I avoided the threads who discussed it myself. Seemed a bit of too easy to me to set 2-3 hints not-so-hidden into the books, compared to other devices GRRM set.

I'm not sure that the tv series did yet exclude the theory by not mentioning her though.
Book Spoilers
Spoiler: show
On Westeros, the ASoIaF forum I visit, there are hardcore believers of this theory and hardcore believers of other crazier theories like Ned + Lyanna, Aerys + Lyanna, Rhaegar + Ashara, etc. Most of these people just seem to strongly dislike R+L=J. So these theories are not unheard of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Spoiler: show
If you were on a discussion group like this one 10 years ago, then it probably was the 2nd most popular idea after Rhaegar + Lyanna. Of course, the fandom has really wilted since then: the 5 year gap before Crows was too much.

And, of course, the last book offered almost nothing save a testimonial from Dayne's nephew, who shared Wyalla as a milk-mother with Jon. My old group is long gone (again, that 5-year gap killed things!), but the couple of groups I've checked out since seem to have pretty much gone with R+L=J; however, I have not checked to see if the TV series has affected things. (If A+E=J really has died, then there would be no crowing or wailing a la the Shippers after Prince.

I have to share this little Dance spoiler I stumbled across, frankly, because I find it entirely amusing:
Spoiler: show
We see Davos interacting with a character named Lord Godric (when I first read this I nearly fainted because it has been my name on here since 2005 obviously for Godric Gryffindor and it is also the username I chose over at Westeros, but now there is to be a ASoIaF character with the same name) but anyway we apparently get another new theory on Jon's parentage from this Lord Godric that features Ned + an entirely new character. I guess the mystery is just going to get more complicated before it gets solved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Liselle View Post
1 episode off finale but I am just blown away in general terms by the scale and attention to detail of the series so far, I'm really tempted to take up the books and read them from cover to cover but part of me is enjoying the show too much for that.

looking forward to the finale big time, by all accounts I've something to really look forward to
You certainly do. The finale, imo, was by far the best episode of the season.


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  #279  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 6:42 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
Book Spoilers
Spoiler: show
On Westeros, the ASoIaF forum I visit, there are hardcore believers of this theory and hardcore believers of other crazier theories like Ned + Lyanna, Aerys + Lyanna, Rhaegar + Ashara, etc. Most of these people just seem to strongly dislike R+L=J. So these theories are not unheard of.
Spoiler: show
The situation is very akin to Harry Potter; after all, remember all of those convoluted ideas people contrived to deny Harrycrux and Snape+Lily? It's very much the same thing.

However, it's not just a "shipper" thing (although I think that is there, too). There is basically one major "mystery" per book offered, and some of the Jon hypotheses have implications for those mysteries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
Spoiler: show
... we apparently get another new theory on Jon's parentage from this Lord Godric that features Ned + an entirely new character. I guess the mystery is just going to get more complicated before it gets solved.
Spoiler: show
heh, well, the "It's Wyalla and Martin won't be raising the issue again!" crowd won't like that! I just logged on to Westeros a couple of weeks ago, and a few posters seemed to be feeling that Martin has dropped the topic! Oops....

(If a Wimsey ever pops up there, then that will be me....)

Of course, this probably should be in the book section, but...
... one interesting thing to watch is how much "retconning" we'll get. By this, I don't mean alterations of the plot so much as Martin having them put things in Season 2 that he came up with later. We shall see!


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  #280  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 7:02 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Looks like we've got out first bit of casting news. Natalie Dormer, famous for playing Anne Boleyn in The Tudors has been cast as Margaery Tyrell. I'm greatly excited because I thought Dormer was fantastic as Boleyn and adding her talents to GoT will be wonderful!


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