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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1281  
Old January 17th, 2010, 1:08 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I could also be lost for words if I am accused of something I was not guilty of, by someone who knew and understood me totally. I would see it as a betrayal and would have no words to express my shock IMO.
Snape is not real. His shock, if it is that is a portrayal of the author. There are several ways to explore 'his shock.' I feel the expalnation I have given is a relevent as anyone elses.

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I ask you if he could help being in Slytherin? If he could help it if members from that House wanted to become DEs? If it was Snape's fault that Lily did not say Voldemort's name aloud? If Snape was friends with certain people who used dark magic?
Who mentioned fault.
Snape has to be in Slytherin for the story to work. Snape exists in the scenario the author created for him. That scenario presents him as being in Slytherin by his own choice. We see that in the very first book where Harry influences the Sorting Hat not to place him in Slytherin. The reason I think Jo chose to show Lily not using LV's name was to demonstrate that LV was even then, a source of fear and dread in the WW. I think also that Jo Rowling demonstrates that yes, Snape could help who his freinds were. We see Lily being freinds with him even though her other freinds, (they must be girlfreinds as she is not at this time freinds with James & Co) don't like him.

Quote:
I can understand Lily's concern about Snape hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. Had she told him that he should stop being friends with Avery and Mulciber if he wanted to be friends with her, I could understand that. I can't understand where she's coming from by talking about years of excuse and can't pretend anymore, for I don't think we have enough canon to suggest all that Lily said was true with respect to Snape.
Lily cannot dictate to Snape who should and should not be freinds with. That is where free will comes in. The way it is written in canon would suggest to me that Lily was given excuses to her girlfreinds for years and he had gone too far for the last time. What canon we do have on Lily IMO, clearly shows her profound dislike for Dark Magic and she did not like Snape defending it.

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As far as I can see, I don't think Snape ever told a lie, except to Voldemort. He is one character who always speaks the truth. Harshly perhaps, but he never lies IMO. I don't think he would even try to lie to Lily, seeing how much he loved her and respected her.
That is why he couldn't speak IMO, he could not bring himself to lie to her face.

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To show me that all characters have flaws, including Lily. That what I came away with after reading the TPT.
Of course Lily has flaws, we all do. I just don't think Lily is in any way at fault here. I think she is model of restraint.

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I think it's because he is hurt. Very hurt IMO.
Of course he's hurt. Lily is not buying the apology and it's either her or his housemates. The decision is too hard for him to make at this time.


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'You have chosen your path, I've chosen mine.' - TPT

I think this line explained to Snape that Lily had chosen her way and on that path there was no place for Snape. I agree with you, it was indeed stark. I found the whole breakup scene and the previous memory very depressing. I had thought this book would say wonderful things about Harry's mother. I came away disappointed.
I think it did. She came across as a caring freind who tried her best and had it thrown back in her face in the most brutal way possible. I've said it before, I think I would have struck him and I detest physical violence.

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I agree; only I don't think he had chosen that path that early. Because if he had, he would have left it to gain Lily's friendship in the next 2 years IMO
.

Then it would have been easier to show her he meant to change. If he didn't have to leave the pre-Death Eater Club all he had to do was tell his freinds in Slytherin he didn't want to hear any more rubbish about Blood Supremecy and how great it would be to rule the world once yuo were a DE. Actions speak so much louder than words.

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Love and happiness, I certainly hope she did have in her short life. Sacrifice which led to the salvation of the WW was made possible because of Snape's request to Voldemort. Otherwise too, she would have sacrificed her life for Harry like James did, I agree.
However it came about,
1) Lily didn't know that Snape had made a bargain for her life in exchange for that of her husband and son.
2) IMO if she had known she would have thrown it back in LV's face. The entire thought of it is nauseating.



Quote:
Choices are not just for Snape IMO. Choices are for other characters too; and I do believe Lily chose too her way, just as Snape did choose his way later. Both friends made sacrifices for the child Lily loved and Snape came to care for IMO.
With Lily there was no wrong choice. She chose to live her life with principals and the chief principal was not to cause pain and death to innocents. Lily had nothing to recriminate for. She did her best and it was not good enough. Snape had recriminations and he did his best to make amends.
He owed that to himself if to no one else.



Last edited by eliza101; January 17th, 2010 at 1:45 pm.
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  #1282  
Old January 17th, 2010, 1:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
'You have chosen your path, I've chosen mine.' - TPT
Being a Star Wars fan, I've always seen a parallel between this scene from the movie "Revenge of the Sith" and the breakup scene between Snape and Lily:

Revenge of the Sith
Padmé: [crying] Anakin, you're breaking my heart! You're going down a path I cannot follow!
Anakin Skywalker: Because of Obi-Wan?
Padmé: Because of what you've done... what you plan to do! Stop! Stop now... come back... I love you!



(disclaimer: Just so you know ahead of time - I am not saying that these situations are exactly the same and that I view Snape as the same type of person as Anakin. I don't. It is just a simple analogy.)


Just as Padme was unable to follow the path that Anakin had chosen, Lily was unable to follow the path that Severus had chosen, as I interpreted the story to be. The HP books have a theme of "choices" and Severus made a choice that was not okay with Lily, imo.


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  #1283  
Old January 17th, 2010, 2:24 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

I see the similarity you are drawing, but I think the distinctions are more prounounced and actually help explain the situation. Anakin had been on the right path, working as a Jedi and firmly against not only the Sith, but all who would undertake bad or evil actions - a path he'd been on with Padme. So Padme said those words at a time when Anakin was on a sudden and pronounced fall down the complete opposite path. Snape on the other hand, had never been on any path except the one he was on - so it wasn't like Lily was begging Snape to return to a path he'd been on - she wasn't begging him to do anything at all. Instead she was coming to terms with the path he had always been on and realized that he wasn't going to get off of it - and that it was one that was opposite to hers. So I think Lily found herself in a much more terminal situation because you can't ask someone to see a light they've never seen and accepted before. It also wasn't as poignant a moment because Snape and Lily had no relationship beyond friends (and that seemed a bit restrained and tension filled at that point) and Snape wasn't in the midst of undertaking mass murder, lol. So the circumstances were a lot different. But I think that is precisely why you get such a different mode of behavior on Lily's part.


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  #1284  
Old January 17th, 2010, 3:04 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
you can't ask someone to see a light they've never seen and accepted before.
Once again, Dumbledore said that Snape returned to our side. And there is no suggestion whatsoever in the memories that he started out in the dark. Lily would never have been friends with him if that had been his starting point. The implication is that he turned to the dark and then returned to the light.

I do not fault Lily for breaking off their friendship. But it flies in the face of everything we see to claim that young Severus was, in essence, born a child of the darkness who had never seen anything other than darkness.


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Last edited by ccollinsmith; January 17th, 2010 at 3:16 pm.
  #1285  
Old January 17th, 2010, 6:47 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Being a Star Wars fan, I've always seen a parallel between this scene from the movie "Revenge of the Sith" and the breakup scene between Snape and Lily:

Revenge of the Sith
Padmé: [crying] Anakin, you're breaking my heart! You're going down a path I cannot follow!
Anakin Skywalker: Because of Obi-Wan?
Padmé: Because of what you've done... what you plan to do! Stop! Stop now... come back... I love you!



(disclaimer: Just so you know ahead of time - I am not saying that these situations are exactly the same and that I view Snape as the same type of person as Anakin. I don't. It is just a simple analogy.)


Just as Padme was unable to follow the path that Anakin had chosen, Lily was unable to follow the path that Severus had chosen, as I interpreted the story to be. The HP books have a theme of "choices" and Severus made a choice that was not okay with Lily, imo.
OMG! This so works!


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  #1286  
Old January 18th, 2010, 12:25 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
OMG! This so works!
I like the Padme/Anakin analogy too, even though Severus had not done anything nearly as horrific as Anakin had.


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  #1287  
Old January 18th, 2010, 1:23 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Once again, Dumbledore said that Snape returned to our side. And there is no suggestion whatsoever in the memories that he started out in the dark. Lily would never have been friends with him if that had been his starting point. The implication is that he turned to the dark and then returned to the light.
Severus showed signs of contempt for Muggles from a young age - he has no interest in Petunia because she's a Muggle, he stops himself just in time from saying Lily's falling out with Petunia doesn't matter because "she's only a -". I tend to think this came from growing up with a Muggle father who was often angry and seemingly violent. I'm not excusing his early dislike of Muggles here, just suggesting a possible origin. Then at Hogwarts, he came under the guidance of a Prefect like Lucius Malfoy - during his years at Hogwarts, his dislike of Muggles seems to have been directed towards eventually joining the DE cause.

Quote:
I do not fault Lily for breaking off their friendship. But it flies in the face of everything we see to claim that young Severus was, in essence, born a child of the darkness who had never seen anything other than darkness.
Despite what I have just said about Severus' youth, I agree - Severus was not irredeemably dark from a young age - he never was irredeemably dark. However, he couldn't turn away from the path he chose until Lily's life was in immediate danger. I have to wonder how a very intelligent young man couldn't see that these two aspects of his life were so completely mutually exclusive - his love for his Muggleborn friend and his interest in a group who sought to kill and/or put Muggleborns and Muggles "in their place". I wonder if he decided Lily was an exception because he loved her, because she had "loads of magic" or some combination of the two.

I also cannot fault Lily for ending the friendship - I think the "Mudblood" incident truly was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was a wake-up call for Lily - she realised that she could not pull Severus back from the path he'd chosen - that was a decision he needed to make himself, much as someone else can't stop an addict in the long term, the addict him/herself must decide to stop.


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  #1288  
Old January 18th, 2010, 1:25 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I like the Padme/Anakin analogy too, even though Severus had not done anything nearly as horrific as Anakin had.
I think it matches more with Lily's choice. Neither could stay with someone who was on such a dark path.


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  #1289  
Old January 18th, 2010, 2:28 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
I think it matches more with Lily's choice. Neither could stay with someone who was on such a dark path.
Yes, I agree.

I just didn't want to suggest that, you know, Severus had ever wiped out a Jedi Temple full of young Padawans... or even a village full of Sand People. Even after he becomes a Death Eater, we don't know the full extent of his personal crimes... though I have no intention of minimizing his culpability.


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  #1290  
Old January 18th, 2010, 7:04 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Snape is not real. His shock, if it is that is a portrayal of the author. There are several ways to explore 'his shock.' I feel the expalnation I have given is a relevent as anyone elses.
Yes; I disagree because I see it differently.

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Who mentioned fault.
Snape has to be in Slytherin for the story to work.
I agree; but, I am looking at characters from within the story.

Quote:
Snape exists in the scenario the author created for him.
Yes; I see him in that scenario only.

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That scenario presents him as being in Slytherin by his own choice.
I agree.

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We see that in the very first book where Harry influences the Sorting Hat not to place him in Slytherin.
That was because he learnt through Hagrid that Slytherin was evil. That was not the case IMO and Hagrid's opinion was thrust upon Harry. He realises by the end that no House is good or evil; which was why he named his second son after the former Head of Slytherin House and later Headmaster of Hogwarts.

Quote:
I think also that Jo Rowling demonstrates that yes, Snape could help who his friends were. We see Lily being freinds with him even though her other freinds, (they must be girlfreinds as she is not at this time freinds with James & Co) don't like him.
Snape's best friend was Lily. He was also friends with Avery and Mulciber though they never seemed to be in the same category as Lily. Now, why is Snape's friendship with 2 Slytherins seen as evil, when Snape was not guilty of any wrong doing like using dark magic and playing evil pranks on muggleborns and was not guilty of showing a desire to join the DEs?

His friends played evil pranks. So, is Snape evil too? Peter was a traitor; from when the four Marauder's were still friends. In Avery and Mulciber's case we knew it, so we condemn Snape for his friendship and say he too must be evil. We did not know in the Marauder's case that one of them was more evil than Avery and Mulciber. That he was prepared to betray his own friends. Now should we taint the other 3 plus Lily with the same brush as we are doing with Snape? Are the other 3 plus Lily guilty by association too?

I see only one mistake made by Snape. A big one. That was calling Lily a Mudblood. But she was not breaking up for that. She was breaking up because she was sure he was going to be a DE once he left School. What does she have for that? Any dark magic she accuses him of? No. Any evil pranks? No. Any big talk about Voldemort's goodness and glory and kindness and the wonderful DEs? No. What we have in canon is his friendship with Avery and Mulciber. He is painted with the same brush at 15 for 2 reasons. One is because we know he became a DE later, so Lily must be correct when she made a statement much before. Two, Snape was friendly with Avery and Mulciber. IMO that's not being very fair to Snape.

Quote:
Of course Lily has flaws, we all do. I just don't think Lily is in any way at fault here. I think she is model of restraint.
If you mean she was not at fault for breaking a friendship, I agree. If you mean she was correct in saying what she did, I don't agree, because I don't see canon for that.

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Then it would have been easier to show her he meant to change.
Exactly. If he was at that time planning to be a DE. If he was not, how would/could he change?

Quote:
However it came about,
1) Lily didn't know that Snape had made a bargain for her life in exchange for that of her husband and son.
2) IMO if she had known she would have thrown it back in LV's face. The entire thought of it is nauseating.
You think so?

You think she would rather see Harry die than accept Snape's bargain? If Lily would do that, she has just fallen a little bit more in my opinion.

I think differently? I think Lily would have been grateful that Snape did not keep in mind the harsh words she spoke to him; that thank Merlin he loved her even now, because it just made it possible to change her death into a sacrifice that would help Harry survive against Voldemort. I know I would think that way and I would also feel tons of guilt for the contempt I used when I spoke to Snape the last time I did. For he effectually saved my beloved child, the one thing my husband had died and I was dying for.

Quote:
With Lily there was no wrong choice. She chose to live her life with principals and the chief principal was not to cause pain and death to innocents.
I think she caused enormous hurt to Snape that night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Being a Star Wars fan, I've always seen a parallel between this scene from the movie "Revenge of the Sith" and the breakup scene between Snape and Lily:

Revenge of the Sith
Padmé: [crying] Anakin, you're breaking my heart! You're going down a path I cannot follow!
Anakin Skywalker: Because of Obi-Wan?
Padmé: Because of what you've done... what you plan to do! Stop! Stop now... come back... I love you!



(disclaimer: Just so you know ahead of time - I am not saying that these situations are exactly the same and that I view Snape as the same type of person as Anakin. I don't. It is just a simple analogy.)


Just as Padme was unable to follow the path that Anakin had chosen, Lily was unable to follow the path that Severus had chosen, as I interpreted the story to be. The HP books have a theme of "choices" and Severus made a choice that was not okay with Lily, imo.
I don't know Star Wars or the characters, so I'll simply reply based on what you've posted.

Your post implies that Snape was already walking down a path that lily was unable to follow. I don't think there is canon for that. But I do think Lily was saying that she could no longer walk with Snape, because the path she had chosen (James) was a totally different; one where there was no place for Snape.

Of course I hasten to add, that this is only about the break up and not applicable to when or after Snape became a DE.


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  #1291  
Old January 18th, 2010, 7:09 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGW
His friends played evil pranks. So, is Snape evil too? Peter was a traitor; from when the four Marauder's were still friends. In Avery and Mulciber's case we knew it, so we condemn Snape for his friendship and say he too must be evil. We did not know in the Marauder's case that one of them was more evil than Avery and Mulciber. That he was prepared to betray his own friends. Now should we taint the other 3 plus Lily with the same brush as we are doing with Snape? Are the other 3 plus Lily guilty by association too?
Great questions, since Peter actually went much darker than Snape, in my opinion. He actually betrayed the Potters to Voldemort instead of begging mercy for either Lily or James. Then he killed Muggles and framed Sirius to fake his own death. Yet I feel that Peter's sins didn't make the Potters, Sirius or Lupin guilty by association, and therefore Snape wasn't guilty of whatever his friends did either.

There are still shades of gray and Snape was never going to be another Peter. JMO Snape was also not identical to Mulciber.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; January 18th, 2010 at 7:11 am.
  #1292  
Old January 18th, 2010, 7:36 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Snape was never going to be another Peter and he was also not a DE like other DEs, most of them who who acted without a conscience. He made a mistake in becoming a DE, but he had enough goodness in him to realise his mistakes and also turn away from his them the moment he realised it IMO.


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  #1293  
Old January 18th, 2010, 8:53 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape was never going to be another Peter and he was also not a DE like other DEs, most of them who who acted without a conscience. He made a mistake in becoming a DE, but he had enough goodness in him to realise his mistakes and also turn away from his them the moment he realised it IMO.
Then it took him a long time to come to that conclusion. 2 years at least. He was enough of a DE to go after a job on LV's orders that would put him in a position at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore He was ruthless enough of a DE to pass the prophecy on to LV. He was cunning enough of a DE to try to strike a bargain with LV that would mean that Lily would not be killed with the rest of her family. These things cannot be glossed over and ignored. He was a Death Eater. He might have been a poor one, but I don't think LV would have asked a poor DE to try for the job under Dumbledore. I think he would have asked his smartest and most ruthless member of staff. The one who would get the job done and who had proved himself in the past.

Snape was smart, efficient and ruthless. He proves this when he is spying for Dumbledore.


  #1294  
Old January 18th, 2010, 10:39 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think differently? I think Lily would have been grateful that Snape did not keep in mind the harsh words she spoke to him;
The idea that only Lily owes Severus an apology, and that he doesn't owe her one for putting her and her family in such danger, truly boggles my mind.

Quote:
thank Merlin he loved her even now, because it just made it possible to change her death into a sacrifice that would help Harry survive against Voldemort. I know I would think that way and I would also feel tons of guilt for the contempt I used when I spoke to Snape the last time I did. For he effectually saved my beloved child, the one thing my husband had died and I was dying for.
You mean you would feel grateful to a friend who had put you in an absolutely impossible situation?? -- you would feel grateful to them for putting you in a situation where you had no choice but to be murdered? Because it's either you or your beloved child?

Lily chose to die instead of Harry. To suggest that she would somehow feel grateful to Severus for this dreadful situation just (again) boggles my mind.

To make myself clear, my own highly personal interpretation of Lily is that she would have able to forgive him for that (Harry, her son did, after all!) --especially if she had known the extent of Snape's anguish and despair over what he had done, and also given the fact that he was trying to salvage a terrible situation. But that's a little different from feeling grateful about the actual situation she was faced with - her or her baby. Of course Lily was going to choose Harry.

To me the matter is very simple: when Severus realised what his actions had led to, that he had put Lily in dreadful danger, he regretted what he had done. We all know what his regret led to. I don't think for one minute that he would have expected Lily to feel grateful to him for the impossible situation he had put her into.

I do think Lily would have acknowledged that he had turned his life around. I certainly think she would have recognised the danger he put himself in when he turned against Voldemort. I don't think she would have been too thrilled at first about his initial dismissal of James and Harry. However, I think she would have acknowledged that he had been on a dark path and was now turning from it as best he could.

I like to imagine -- although it's not canon -- that all was forgiven between Severus and Lily in the afterlife and that the issues between Severus and the Marauders no longer mattered in the afterlife either. This is in keeping with the strong redemptive message of DH, IMO.

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I think she caused enormous hurt to Snape that night.
It's been said in this thread that some readers want to see Lily as all good and Severus as all bad. That is not my position: Lily isn't perfect and she doesn't handle the situation perfectly. What I do think though is that she had genuine worries and just cause and Severus was not able or willing to convince her that he wasn't turning to the dark side. Concentrating only on the hurt that Severus felt (as much as I feel for him, and I do) almost implies that Lily is all bad and Severus is all good. I don't agree with that either. You honestly don't think that Severus had a case to answer to Lily for? At all?

To me that just turns the whole story on its head, to be honest. So I see it differently. Severus was sinned against, certainly, at points in his life: but he also did his fair share of sinning. Which is all part of the awesome story arc that JKR creates for him.

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Your post implies that Snape was already walking down a path that lily was unable to follow. I don't think there is canon for that.
Well, there is. The canon is Lily's words. I take them at face value. You obviously don't. Which is your prerogative, of course.

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Great questions, since Peter actually went much darker than Snape, in my opinion.
No argument from me on that one. I find it impossible to forgive Peter for what he did to his friends, because he never showed any remorse. Severus, on the other hand, did.


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Last edited by Pearl_Took; January 18th, 2010 at 11:02 am.
  #1295  
Old January 18th, 2010, 11:29 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
The idea that only Lily owes Severus an apology, and that he doesn't owe her one for putting her and her family in such danger, truly boggles my mind.
I never said Snape did not owe her one. He did, as he showed all his life IMO.

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You mean you would feel grateful to a friend who had put you in an absolutely impossible situation?? -- you would feel grateful to them for putting you in a situation where you had no choice but to die? Because it's either you or your beloved child?
In a way, yes. I would be angry I was being targeted, but then when I am about to die, knowing that my baby is going to die next, as Lily must have thought; I would be glad for any little thing that makes my baby live. Of course I would rather not be in this situation at all; but if I am, I would be more than glad that my child will not follow me into the Afterlife a second after I've gone.

If that is because of the request of a DE, I would be grateful, whoever he was and whatever he's done. Just the way I see it.

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Lily chose to die instead of Harry. To suggest that she would somehow feel grateful to Severus for this dreadful situation just (again) boggles my mind.
I was talking about the choice offered, which turned Lily's death into a sacrifice. Voldemort came after the Potters because of Snape handing over the Prophecy is true; but he came into that house because of Peter, not Snape. Snape's request changed Lily's death into a sacrifice and I can't imagine Lily not being glad, grateful that her baby was going to live, all because her ex-friend still loved her. I know that would make me delirious with joy, and eternally grateful, because that would mean my child will not die with me. That's how I think Lily will be too.

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I don't think for one minute that he would have expected Lily to feel grateful to him for the impossible situation he had put her into.
I don't think Lily would be grateful because Snape expected her to be so; I have never said that either. I said Lily would be grateful for anything that would help her save Harry. That it was Snape's request which did the job, IMO means Lily would be grateful for that. Not to be grateful, frankly boggles my mind, because it was her baby's life Lily was saving.

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I do think Lily would have acknowledged that he had turned his life around. I certainly think she would have recognised the danger he put himself in when he turned against Voldemort. I don't think she would have been too thrilled at first about his initial dismissal of James and Harry. However, I think she would have acknowledged that he had been on a dark path and was now turning from it as best he could.
Frankly, IMO the 36 year old Snape would not care what lily thought. I think he atoned for his love for Lily; for himself, because he placed his love over everything else. It was his remorse and his redemption. While I can see him apologise to Lily for his part in handing over the Prophecy, I can't imagine him wanting her acknowledgement or acceptance. That Snape was no more after the SWM. JMHO.

Quote:
I like to imagine -- although it's not canon -- that all was forgiven between Severus and Lily in the afterlife and that the issues between Severus and the Marauders no longer mattered in the afterlife either.
I don't think it would matter to Snape. I think it would with Lily though.

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You honestly don't think that Severus had a case to answer to Lily for? At all?
For his comment in the SWM, definitely. He owed her an apology and more. For the rest, I don't think so.

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Well, there is. The canon is Lily's words. I take them at face value. You obviously don't. Which is your prerogative, of course.
I take her words at face value too. And she never said Snape played evil pranks; she never said Snape was practising dark magic; she never said she did know how he could think Voldemort was cool, even once before the break up.

The only thing she did say was that Snape was friends with Avery and Mulciber, something she did not like.


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  #1296  
Old January 18th, 2010, 1:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Once again, Dumbledore said that Snape returned to our side. And there is no suggestion whatsoever in the memories that he started out in the dark. Lily would never have been friends with him if that had been his starting point. The implication is that he turned to the dark and then returned to the light.

I do not fault Lily for breaking off their friendship. But it flies in the face of everything we see to claim that young Severus was, in essence, born a child of the darkness who had never seen anything other than darkness.
This wasn't what I meant, lol. I meant he had never been an Order member or friend of the Order members working against Voldemort. He hadn't taken a stance against dark magic or blood prejudice up to that point in the canon. So Lily wasn't looking for reasons why he stopped doing any of those things, because he never had. Her focus was on the fact that she felt he was supporting all of that and she wanted nothing to do with it. I agree that no one is born evil - I wasn't trying to make that argument.

Whatever Dumbledore meant, he didn't meant to say Snape had been working against Voldemort or taking a stance against any of these issues prior to joining him. So I don't feel that is relevant to Lily's viewpoint.


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  #1297  
Old January 18th, 2010, 3:49 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
This wasn't what I meant, lol. I meant he had never been an Order member or friend of the Order members working against Voldemort. He hadn't taken a stance against dark magic or blood prejudice up to that point in the canon. So Lily wasn't looking for reasons why he stopped doing any of those things, because he never had. Her focus was on the fact that she felt he was supporting all of that and she wanted nothing to do with it. I agree that no one is born evil - I wasn't trying to make that argument.

Whatever Dumbledore meant, he didn't meant to say Snape had been working against Voldemort or taking a stance against any of these issues prior to joining him. So I don't feel that is relevant to Lily's viewpoint.
Thanks for the explanation. I guess I would have phrased the darkness/light stuff differently, but now at least I understand what you mean by it.


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  #1298  
Old January 18th, 2010, 7:00 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Then it took him a long time to come to that conclusion. 2 years at least. He was enough of a DE to go after a job on LV's orders that would put him in a position at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore He was ruthless enough of a DE to pass the prophecy on to LV. He was cunning enough of a DE to try to strike a bargain with LV that would mean that Lily would not be killed with the rest of her family. These things cannot be glossed over and ignored. He was a Death Eater.
I don't think anybody ignores these things. For my part, I don't consider these two years as a "very long time". We know many Death Eaters who never changed. Snape did. And I don't have the impression that leaving the Lord Thingy was an easy decision.


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  #1299  
Old January 18th, 2010, 7:45 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
I don't think anybody ignores these things. For my part, I don't consider these two years as a "very long time". We know many Death Eaters who never changed. Snape did. And I don't have the impression that leaving the Lord Thingy was an easy decision.
That's actually something I agree upon, but Lily couldn't have known. Snape changed after her death. The time they knew each other she claims to have tried to talk him away from pureblood ideology over years, but Snape never understood how important it was for her. Imo they both came to a point where friendship had to end.


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  #1300  
Old January 18th, 2010, 7:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

The problem is, we don't know anything sure about Snape's relationship with his housemates. We know only what other people say. We don't know how much of their ideology he accepted as his own, and how much he accepted because he wanted to be a part of some group. The Hogwarts students are expected to identify strongly with their houses; it isn't easy to stand alone against the people you live with, especially when you are 15 or 16.

And my impression is that Lily doesn't really ask Snape to stop following his friends, she simply says it's over.


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