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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1101  
Old December 9th, 2009, 5:50 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I can only quote JKR on this: Lily might have grown to love Snape “if he had not been so drawn to the Dark Arts.” And I quote that specifically because I honestly thought that's the story she was telling.
I know; only I can't agree with her because of all the canon we know about Snape.

Sirius for example did not know Snape was a DE in GOF, and yet he knew Snape was famous for his knowledge of the Dark Arts and came to School knowing more curses than half the 7th year boys. So it was common knowledge that Snape was famous for Dark Arts in School, since even Gryffindors knew it too. Lily must have known it as well.

Before Hogwarts Lily's only window into the world of magic was Snape. Snape thought the Dark Arts were not bad! Lily, while she would not have known at that time about the reputation the Dark Arts had, would have been educated very quickly once she started Hogwarts. She would have known about Slytherin, Dark Arts, Mudbloods and everything Snape was learning. She would have learnt that the dark arts were evil, mudblood was a racist name, Slytherins were bad. Yet, she was Snape's best friend for 5 years. How to explain that?

Snape hid nothing from Lily. She knew everything about him. His fascination for the Dark Arts, his habits, the Slytherins he was hanging with; one moment she was fine, then she was offended.

Quote:
I took his silence for consent too. I do think Lily gave him a fair chance to repudiate the accusation. And he doesn't do so. That to me was one of the reasons why his silence is so painful: he knows he's pretty much lost Lily, and he would deny that he wants to become a DE, if he could, but actually he can't.

"You've chosen your way: I've chosen mine."
DH - TPT'I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.'

I was. I would have. I never meant to call you Mudblood. It just - '

'Slipped out?' There was no pity in Lily's voice. 'It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious death eater friends - see you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join YKW, can you?

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

'I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine.'

'No - listen, I didn't mean -'

' - to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood Severus. Why should I be any different?'

He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back into the portrait hole ...


The whole speech/break up scene would have taken some 3 minutes from start to end. Lily was making pretty harsh and very serious accusations and she was not giving Snape any chance to reply. I think that's because she was not interested in listening to that and Snape understood it. I think that's why he never sought her out again. He realised that the break up was not about ideals, it was about Lily not wanting Snape as a friend.

I think that would have hurt him and very badly too, and I also think he would know why, and those suspicions would have turned correct when Lily started dating James.

Quote:
but it's also painful to read because I think he knew Lily had rumbled him, and that he was, in effect, choosing the dark path over her.
This happened in 5th year. My interpretation of the break up scene is a little different. Snape never went back to Lily. I find that enormously interesting. That showed the amount of pride Snape had and also that he had right on his side. Lily had at that time broken off with him citing reasons which were not reasons at all IMO. For she knew about each and every reason for a long time. The only thing new was her assumption Snape wanted to be a DE when he left School, sometime in the future, which cannot be a reason, only a mere speculation IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I understand if you don't like the way JKR wrote it,
I am okay with it now.

Quote:
but we know that JKR planned for Snape to become a DE and deliver the prophecy;
Sure! Only Lily could not have known it 2 years in advance IMO.

Quote:
and we know that she planned for Lily to marry James and they be the love of one another's lives and have Harry.
She planned and had James marry Lily. Whether they were the love of each other's lives, I don't know. For James, I think Sirius came first. For Lily, I think James' opinion came first. That's how it looks when I take into account the SK thingy along with their love for each other. What I believe though is, both of them loved Harry, enough to die for him, even though they were very careless about his safety, or his future if anything happened to them.

Quote:
So even if it were written in a different manner, it would have resulted in the same outcome, because that is what JKR wanted.
Yes; I agree, but then the reasons given on page for Lily breaking up Snape would have made more sense to me than it does now.


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Last edited by The_Green_Woods; December 9th, 2009 at 5:53 pm.
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  #1102  
Old December 9th, 2009, 6:43 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
So even if it were written in a different manner, it would have resulted in the same outcome, because that is what JKR wanted.
Its what we all wanted, because if they hadn't there would be no Harry Potter

I kinda sympthise with Snape here, but Lily hadn't done anything wrong, she was just trying to help, so why on earth shout at her. Then again I know that in the heat of the situation people take out things on those they care about! But then again he was already planning to be a deatheater so...



  #1103  
Old December 9th, 2009, 7:08 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
She planned and had James marry Lily. Whether they were the love of each other's lives, I don't know. For James, I think Sirius came first. For Lily, I think James' opinion came first. That's how it looks when I take into account the SK thingy along with their love for each other. What I believe though is, both of them loved Harry, enough to die for him, even though they were very careless about his safety, or his future if anything happened to them.
I meant what JKR planned - she said that their patronus' formed cuz they were the love of one another's lives. So that was what was in her head and why she made the story go the way it did. If you don't feel she did a good job portraying that on page, I understand, but she has told us what she was trying to do. My point was that she had a 'goal' in mind and no matter what story she came up with, James and Lily would fall in love, marry and have Harry and Snape would go on to be a DE. All the hows, whens and wheres might change, but she'd still keep the main storyline the same.

Quote:
Yes; I agree, but then the reasons given on page for Lily breaking up Snape would have made more sense to me than it does now.
Well yeah, that is what I was saying. What makes more sense to you, might not make more sense to someone else. I don't think JKR could please everybody, so she just wrote the story she liked, lol.

I think JKR was simply trying to show that Snape and Lily were friends, so we'd understand there was some basis for his later behavior as an adult in the series. As Pearl pointed out, if Snape believed Lily was completely wrong and terrible for her decisions relative to Snape, he would look rather silly hanging on to feelings for her. So I think that while readers might not feel it made sense, we are supposed to understand it made sense to Snape. I have to take that same understanding about the epilogue which makes no sense to me in light of Snape and his emotions for Lily - but I have to assume it made sense to Harry. You can't convince any reader that something makes sense, even where there are alternative ways of seeing it - if they simply don't see it as reasonable. So in cases of that type, as in this one, we can only agree to disagree.


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  #1104  
Old December 9th, 2009, 7:59 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post

Yet she fitted in with him for well over five years.
I don't understnad your point here

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post


Are you suggesting Lily should also acquire the same reputation?


No. I'm suggesting that being friends with the marauders is harder than being friends with Snape because the marauders have so much ** that comes along with them.


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  #1105  
Old December 9th, 2009, 8:20 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
No. I'm suggesting that being friends with the marauders is harder than being friends with Snape because the marauders have so much ** that comes along with them.
But Snape was practicing Dark Magic and joining up with people who hate people like Lily. How would Lily have an easier time being around that?


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  #1106  
Old December 9th, 2009, 8:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
But Snape was practicing Dark Magic and joining up with people who hate people like Lily. How would Lily have an easier time being around that?
Because when she was with Snape they didn't hang around those people and he probably behaved differently with Lily. Also, she knew him before she knew anything about the magical world, so she knew Snape before he started going down the wrong track. She also lived near him so she got to see Snape when he was outside of the Hogwarts setting, free of the stigma of being in Slytherin.


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  #1107  
Old December 9th, 2009, 8:58 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I know; only I can't agree with her because of all the canon we know about Snape.
Well, when the author says something about her own work that makes sense, then I agree with her.

Quote:
Before Hogwarts Lily's only window into the world of magic was Snape. Snape thought the Dark Arts were not bad! Lily, while she would not have known at that time about the reputation the Dark Arts had, would have been educated very quickly once she started Hogwarts. She would have known about Slytherin, Dark Arts, Mudbloods and everything Snape was learning. She would have learnt that the dark arts were evil, mudblood was a racist name, Slytherins were bad. Yet, she was Snape's best friend for 5 years. How to explain that?
Because she cared about him. It's like when a friend you love is getting involved in something bad. You may ignore it for a while, because you love them. Then it comes to a point when you can no longer ignore it.

Quote:
Snape hid nothing from Lily. She knew everything about him.
We don't have enough canon to claim that, IMO. Certainly Lily knew a lot about Sev but I can't claim with any confidence, based on what canon we have, that she knew everything about him.

Quote:
His fascination for the Dark Arts, his habits, the Slytherins he was hanging with; one moment she was fine, then she was offended.
I don't think The Prince's Tale shows us that at all.

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

This is the key moment. He could have denied everything. He chose not to.

Quote:
He realised that the break up was not about ideals, it was about Lily not wanting Snape as a friend.
Personally, I give both Lily and Severus more credit than that. I don't think she dumped him because she stopped caring about him, I think her reasons had legitimacy. And I think Severus knew it. This interpretation completely glosses over the whole racism angle, which is such a crucial part of the saga, not least in The Prince's Tale. (Rowling might as well not have bothered )

Quote:
I think that would have hurt him and very badly too, and I also think he would know why, and those suspicions would have turned correct when Lily started dating James.
I'm sure he was hurt. Obviously he realised that he'd hurt Lily too ... why else did he come to beg for one last chance? He knew he'd crossed a line. Canon doesn't show us, but I imagine -- according to my interpretation of Severus -- that this bitter memory would hurt all the more when he reflected on his responsibility in the matter.

As for James, she started dating him two years later. Severus could have turned back from being a DE during that time, before James and Lily started dating.

Quote:
This happened in 5th year. My interpretation of the break up scene is a little different. Snape never went back to Lily. I find that enormously interesting. That showed the amount of pride Snape had and also that he had right on his side.
Well, it certainly shows his pride. But 'right on his side'? How so? Lily is the one who was proved right, wasn't she? Sev did join the DEs.

Adult Snape understands all too well what his idiocy in his teen years cost him. Which is why he is courageous enough to give that very private, and bitter, memory of the breakup to Harry (and all credit to him for doing so). Adult Snape, IMO, fully accepts that the Muggleborn-persecuting issue (and the way in which he refused to face up to it) was very much to blame for Lily breaking up with him.

Not that I think Lily is perfect, I hasten to add. But I disagree that everything that went wrong between her and Sev is somehow all her fault. I see Lily as a good influence in Sev's life, an influence he bitterly regretted not listening to, and the inspiration for his eventual turning to the Light.

Diminish Lily, and you end up diminishing Severus. Just my take on it.


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Last edited by Pearl_Took; December 9th, 2009 at 9:06 pm.
  #1108  
Old December 9th, 2009, 11:21 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl Took
Diminish Lily, and you end up diminishing Severus. Just my take on it.
It's fine that Lily felt Severus was crossing lines with his friends, and to tell him so.

But it's unclear how he was supposed to change everything and still survive Slytherin House without becoming a target himself. He was already a target for the Gryffindors, and disliked by people in the other houses (probably due to his appearance and rumors about him). Where could he go without dropping out of school?

Draco had limited choices at the same age. He could either carry out Voldemort's plans or die, or watch his parents die. The only thing that saved him was the Unbreakable Vow, but there was no one to save Snape back then until he finally went to Dumbledore. And we know that Regulus was also in over his head during the same time that Snape was.

So some of it is Snape's free will, and some of what was happening to him was due to circumstances beyond his control. So it's fine and dandy for Lily to give him an ultimatum - Me or Them - but I think that was not an option. JMO

ETA: I personally find Lily naive in the extreme. She had no clue what Voldemort was capable of doing to Snape if he didn't follow orders. I think that's one reason Snape helps Narcissa/Draco readily in HBP - he's been there, done that. He acts as a real friend to her. JMO


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Last edited by silver ink pot; December 9th, 2009 at 11:23 pm.
  #1109  
Old December 10th, 2009, 12:24 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
It's fine that Lily felt Severus was crossing lines with his friends, and to tell him so.

But it's unclear how he was supposed to change everything and still survive Slytherin House without becoming a target himself.
Snape wasn't unintelligent. Lily didn't have to teach or direct him on how to tie his shoes - she would only have to mention they were untied. That is, he was smart enough to figure out anything he wanted to, imo. Additionally, unless everyone in Slytherin House was bent on the dark arts and worshiping Voldemort, then clearly it was possible to survive Slytherin. If it meant being a target in ways, well then it would be worth it over the alternative of joining up against your will, wouldn't it?

A weakling might not be able to deal with it, but that is where the sorting hat would come in. (Assuming Slytherins were attempting to bend people to their will - which I think is overstated. I think some likely tried to cultivate an interest in Voldy and/or the dark arts, but without force or compulsion). Nonetheless, someone fit for Slytherin, but who did not want to bend to the will of others (assuming that even took place), would have to be strong - and the hat would recognize that and sort them elsewhere if that would be a problem. I think in the case of Snape, he didn't want to go elsewhere and he didn't want to change - he wanted the dark arts and to sign up with Voldemort, imo. So despite being a vulnerable individual in ways, he was perfect for Slytherin - where he wanted to go and where the hat saw he would fit in perfectly, imo. I think that is something Lily came to understand too down the line.

Quote:
So some of it is Snape's free will, and some of what was happening to him was due to circumstances beyond his control. So it's fine and dandy for Lily to give him an ultimatum - Me or Them - but I think that was not an option. JMO.

ETA: I personally find Lily naive in the extreme. She had no clue what Voldemort was capable of doing to Snape if he didn't follow orders. I think that's one reason Snape helps Narcissa/Draco readily in HBP - he's been there, done that. He acts as a real friend to her. JMO
Respecting your view, there is no canon that Voldemort was forcing all of the children sorted into Slytherin to become Death Eaters. I think if Snape felt pressure from house members in that regard, and he really didn't want to be a Death Eater (or budding Death Eater) - he would have secretly expressed his concern to Lily - and Lily, many of those in the other 3 hours as well as the professors would have done all in their power to "rescue" him from such a fate. However, I think JKR was trying to show that Snape was not in that situation. Snape laughed off the use of dark magic against others when he was alone with Lily (no need to lie) - and defended his Slytherin friends in DH. He also seemed to have difficulty distinguishing between the use of dark magic and non dark magic (as understood by wizards) in as far as it being appropriate for use (DH). Snape also had an interest in dark magic to the extent that he used it to create Sectumsempra (or for those who aren't certain he created the spell, he at minimum, adopted it for use knowing it was considered dark - HBP).

So I don't feel that Snape felt 'forced or compelled' to join up with Voldemort or participate in dark interests with his friends, I think these are things he wanted to do of his own accord. I also feel that he held real prejudice back then toward Muggles and apparently extended it to Muggleborns at some point, imo. These aspects of his personality are what I feel drove him to follow the dark path that Lily spoke of and supported her decision to end the friendship, imo.


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  #1110  
Old December 10th, 2009, 2:06 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
Because when she was with Snape they didn't hang around those people and he probably behaved differently with Lily. Also, she knew him before she knew anything about the magical world, so she knew Snape before he started going down the wrong track. She also lived near him so she got to see Snape when he was outside of the Hogwarts setting, free of the stigma of being in Slytherin.
Well yea, this all true back when they were kids. But all of that starts to change when Snape starts hanging around with the likes of Mulciber and Avery.

I guess I'm unclear of when in the friendship you're referring to? Because even if they are away from Hogwarts and back at home, it still doesn't change that Snape aligned himself with people who hate people like Lily and condone their actions, or after he called her mudblood.


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  #1111  
Old December 10th, 2009, 4:43 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
Snape wasn't unintelligent.
Could you praise him a little lower?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
Lily didn't have to teach or direct him on how to tie his shoes - she would only have to mention they were untied. That is, he was smart enough to figure out anything he wanted to, imo. Additionally, unless everyone in Slytherin House was bent on the dark arts and worshiping Voldemort, then clearly it was possible to survive Slytherin. If it meant being a target in ways, well then it would be worth it over the alternative of joining up against your will, wouldn't it?
Friends aren't as simple as shoelaces.

And beyond that fact, I meant that Lily had no idea what Snape's life in Slytherin House was like during the first Voldie War. She couldn't walk a mile in his shoes, so asking him to dump all his Slytherin friends when her own Gryffindor friends were ultra-loyal to one another no matter what seems hypocritical to me. JMO.

At the age of 15-16, the only thing that would make it "worth it" to Snape would be if Lily had held out hope that they could still be friends with a possibility of romance. But she told him she had been "making excuses about him for years." That's insulting, and it's clearly hopeless.

And frankly, they were done the minute she was sorted into Gryffindor, whose students are just as likely to insist on inter-marrying among their own house as the Slytherins are. Hence, the Epilogue.

JMO


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  #1112  
Old December 10th, 2009, 5:13 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was shy and had a terrible self-image. He seems to have been belittled and berated by his father regularly and had little or no self esteem. I think he was afraid Lily would reject him and it would just reinforce his idea that he was worthless.

I don't think he would have been interested in her if she hadn't been magical. I think he saw that as something they had in common, which may have given him a little comfort.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Lily seems to have been a very kind person. Everyone speaks well of her through all of the books. She may have felt sorry for Snape, or, since he ws the only other magical person she knew, that may have been why she befreinded him -- or a bit of both.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think Snape was someone Lily could be herself with. He understood about magic, which her sister didn't. He didn't look at her as "special" like her parents, or a "freak." He just seemed to see her as another magical person.

At first it might have been as equals. Each of them was going to Hogwarts for the first time and that would have but them on a pretty even basis. Later on, though, as Lily gained popularity, I think Snape began to feel inferior again.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Being separated, they, naturally, grew apart from each other and closer to their housemates. Also, I think Lily matured and blossomed there, while, Snape withdrew more and more into himself. HIs self image was not helped by the bullying that he endured.

I think for the first few years, before the magic they were learning became more complex and powerful, it was easier to maintain the friendship. Later, I think Lily saw the positive side of it and Snape, being exposed to a darker group in Slytherin, saw more of how it oculd be used to control others. I think Snape tried to maintain the friendship as best he knew how, but, his social skills were very lacking. Instead of impressing Lily, he only managed to alienate her with his interest in Dark Magic.


5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I'm not sure the houses themselves "changed" either character, but, they did help to reinforce the positive and/or negative tendencies in each. If they'd been sorted to the same house they might have remained closer, but, I think they would have eventually grown apart anyway. Once James Potter set his eye on her, Snape might as well have packed it in then and there.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

Both. I think it destroyed her respect for him when he called her a mudblood, and also reduced any hope that she might have had that he was not being lured by the Dark Arts.


7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

It might have helped to close the rift between them if Snape had apologized. But, he was just so stubborn and headstrong. I think he would have seen that as a weakness and, since he felt impotent enough trying to compete with James, I think he stood his ground to his own detriment. Lily could have been more forceful in demanding that the Marauders stop picking on Snape. That was one thing that seemed to really push him toward the Dark Arts...the expectation that he would gain power and be back in Lily's good graces.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I'm not sure if they would have been romantically involved or not. As an abused child, Snape would have had a very difficult time trusting and forming close emotional bonds. I think that he might not have felt the need to turn to the Dark Arts as much if he and Lily had remained close friends. I think he would have developed a better self image and would have possibly gained strength from her friendship. If he had not turned to the Dark Arts, they might have remained life long friends.

I think Snape loved Lily as deeply as he was capable of loving and that love never died.


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  #1113  
Old December 10th, 2009, 9:07 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Draco had limited choices at the same age. He could either carry out Voldemort's plans or die, or watch his parents die.
While there are parallels between Draco & Sev’s childhood experiences of the DE’s, their reasons for joining were also different – Severus was not in the extreme situation Draco was although Sev’s situation was unenviable he was not having his parents or himself directly threatened. Also while Draco became a DE just before his 6th year at Hogwarts we don't know when Sev did, but I don't think he was a member during SWM do you?

Quote:
But it's unclear how he was supposed to change everything and still survive Slytherin House without becoming a target himself. He was already a target for the Gryffindors, and disliked by people in the other houses (probably due to his appearance and rumors about him). Where could he go without dropping out of school?
&
Quote:
So some of it is Snape's free will, and some of what was happening to him was due to circumstances beyond his control. So it's fine and dandy for Lily to give him an ultimatum - Me or Them - but I think that was not an option. JMO
Well of course you are free to feel that way but I think that as we know that one of the things Sev regrets most is SWM and if he had his time to live again he would make very different choices while he is at school it is implied that there was a way out for him, maybe not a nice or easy way out but a way out no the less; or at least Severus thinks so looking back at his childhood jmho.

It seems to me that their friendship was really pretty much over before SWM, but we have to look at why Sev didn’t really listen to or understand Lily and I don’t think she really listened or understood him – the VW1 put them both under pressure and their friendship was in many ways the victim of that pressure.

Quote:
ETA: I personally find Lily naive in the extreme. She had no clue what Voldemort was capable of doing to Snape if he didn't follow orders.
I don’t think he was a DE at this point besides which while your statement has hit a key point imo it is also very true in reverse Sev ignored what a threat was to his best friend too


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  #1114  
Old December 10th, 2009, 9:27 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I meant what JKR planned - she said that their Patronus' formed cuz they were the love of one another's lives. So that was what was in her head and why she made the story go the way it did. If you don't feel she did a good job portraying that on page, I understand, but she has told us what she was trying to do.
If Patronus forms tell us of how close their owners were, then I suppose with Snape's Patronus being a Doe and Harry's being a Stag it is natural that Harry came to regard Snape as his very own; close, if not more than a Parent, a mentor and a friend. For does and stags according to JKR are soul mates. So Harry and Snape too loved each other; as parent and child. Is that how you see it?

I don't know about how others Patronus forms are supposed to be related to oneself, there is not much canon on that. For if we must take JKR's words as canon, the Sirius' Patronus being a Grim, one can also say that he brought death to the Potters, which he did in a way by suggesting the change in SKs.

Personally, I think Patronus forms reveal one's character; I don't know if a pair of particular forms mean love between their owners. Ginny then was not Harry's soul mate, for her Patronus was not a Doe.

I don't know if JKR meant to portray James and Lily as soul mates in her books; what I understood from them was that Lily fell in love with James and married him and had Harry.

Quote:
My point was that she had a 'goal' in mind and no matter what story she came up with, James and Lily would fall in love, marry and have Harry and Snape would go on to be a DE. All the hows, whens and wheres might change, but she'd still keep the main storyline the same.
Oh I agree. I am only deliberating each character as they are written in the Books, with the text as my guide and my own understanding with which I arrive at conclusions. At times they are similar to JKR, at other times they are different, because of how differently I perceive the same incident, from her.

Quote:
Well yeah, that is what I was saying. What makes more sense to you, might not make more sense to someone else. I don't think JKR could please everybody, so she just wrote the story she liked, lol.
Agreed. So, I disagree with everyone who thinks differently, just as others disagree with me because my opinions are different than theirs.

Quote:
I think JKR was simply trying to show that Snape and Lily were friends, so we'd understand there was some basis for his later behavior as an adult in the series.
They were not just friends; they were friends in extraordinary circumstances. They were best friends, when they belonged to different Houses and when they came from different backgrounds. There was something special Lily saw in Snape, and Snape saw in Lily, for them to bond as they did, for over 5 years in circumstances which can be described as hostile to their friendship IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I don't think The Prince's Tale shows us that at all.

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

This is the key moment. He could have denied everything. He chose not to.
What could he deny? That he was not calling other muggleborns, Mudbloods? Lily knew he was, for a long time, and she never seemed to mind.

That he did not call her a Mudblood too? Lily knew she did and if she was honest to herself, she would have known that the word slipped out from Snape at a time he was also humiliated. While it was wrong, and he realised it too, which was why he was there apologising to her, I am sure it was not wrong for Snape to think she might forgive him, because of the situation then.

That she was sure he would became a DE in 2 years time? What could he answer to that?

How could he deny something he had no clue about?

He was there to apologise and beg her to understand why that word slipped out from his mouth. Had she warned him and told him off, he would understand, but how could he deny a DE status she was giving him at some point in time in the future?

Quote:
Personally, I give both Lily and Severus more credit than that. I don't think she dumped him because she stopped caring about him,
I think Lily cared for him too.

Quote:
As for James, she started dating him two years later. Severus could have turned back from being a DE during that time, before James and Lily started dating.
He was not a DE in all that time. How could he have turned back? I think it was the accusation, a rather unfair one IMO that Snape was surely going to become a DE some 2 years into the future was what I think told him, Lily was not interested anymore. She was not just pointing out his faults at that time; she was also damning him by telling him that she was sure he was going to be evil 2 years into the future. How could he fight that? That was a statement which said; I know you will become evil in the future, so I'll not bother with you now. She was so sure Snape was a written off case 2 full years before he became a DE. How is that statement fair and how could he refute that?

Quote:
Well, it certainly shows his pride. But 'right on his side'? How so? Lily is the one who was proved right, wasn't she? Sev did join the DEs.
Right in showing him that the break up was not about issues; it was because of something else IMO.

Quote:
Not that I think Lily is perfect, I hasten to add. But I disagree that everything that went wrong between her and Sev is somehow all her fault.
I am not saying that. I don't blame hr for his choices; what I blame her was breaking up the way she did, with an unfair accusation about what she was sure Snape would end up as 2 years into the future, when she knew he had never practised the dark arts at all.

Quote:
Diminish Lily, and you end up diminishing Severus. Just my take on it.
I disagree. Lily was the girl Snape loved. The love was Snape's, the purity of such love Snape had for Lily was his; the love that burned him so much that he could not function when he made a mistake was his; the love that controlled him and told him to feel regret, remorse and to try hard to undo his mistakes was his; the love that made him look deep into himself and evolve and grow was also his.

Lily was just the girl who inspired that love. She may habe been rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, good or evil, selfish or generous; that doesn't matter; her character was different from the love Snape felt in his heart for her. That made him do things, not Lily. She was not there at all. His love for her was, though, all the time IMO>


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  #1115  
Old December 10th, 2009, 4:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Before Hogwarts Lily's only window into the world of magic was Snape. Snape thought the Dark Arts were not bad! Lily, while she would not have known at that time about the reputation the Dark Arts had, would have been educated very quickly once she started Hogwarts. She would have known about Slytherin, Dark Arts, Mudbloods and everything Snape was learning. She would have learnt that the dark arts were evil, mudblood was a racist name, Slytherins were bad. Yet, she was Snape's best friend for 5 years. How to explain that?
People in real life stay in harmful relationships all the time for various reasons. Sometimes their care for someone and their history together will outweigh anything. So these people in will end up "making excuses for years" before they realize that this relationships isn't good for them and need to get out quick.

Also, a racial slur when used offensively or as an insult is a verbal attack. It does not matter if it is used directly at the person/group of people. Given Snape's attitude toward muggleborns and what we see him refer to Lily as, this was harmful to Lily and people like her. I don't think it's unreasonable for Lily to break away from Snape after staying with him for so long. If anything, it was about time she did.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; December 10th, 2009 at 4:35 pm.
  #1116  
Old December 10th, 2009, 4:35 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
People in real life stay in harmful relationships all the time for various reasons. Sometimes their care for someone and their history together will outweigh anything. So these people in will end up "making excuses for years" before they realize that this relationships isn't good for them and need to get out quick.
Well I really can't see Snape and Lily's relationship as harmful. Could you quote some canon and say where Snape was abusing Lily and where she was putting up with him, unable to get out.

The one time a totally wrong word slipped out of his mouth because of what he, himself was facing, Lily ended his friendship and also prophesied he would become a DE. I can't think of anywhere in canon where Snape and Lily had a harmful relationship.

They belonged to two different Houses; they came from a background that was as different as could be. If Lily was still friends with this boy, I am quite sure it was because she wanted to be friends, rather than because she was forced into that friendship for some reason or another.


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  #1117  
Old December 10th, 2009, 5:06 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Well I really can't see Snape and Lily's relationship as harmful. Could you quote some canon and say where Snape was abusing Lily and where she was putting up with him, unable to get out.
Nobody in this thread has been claiming that Severus abused Lily.

The issue, IMO, is that he was hanging out with people who were prejudiced against people of Lily's blood heritage and that Lily was genuinely worried that Sev was assimilating these views. When he seemed to turn against her, that worry was confirmed.

Quote:
The one time a totally wrong word slipped out of his mouth because of what he, himself was facing, Lily ended his friendship and also prophesied he would become a DE.
In my view, she asks him pretty much to deny that he wants to become a Death Eater. And Severus doesn't deny it.

I've been rethinking this whole issue and I can see the incident very much from Sev's POV. (I always have done: I have tremendous sympathy for him in SWM.) But I still don't think Lily's POV, where the racism angle is concerned, should be entirely dismissed either. JMO.


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  #1118  
Old December 10th, 2009, 5:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Well I really can't see Snape and Lily's relationship as harmful. Could you quote some canon and say where Snape was abusing Lily and where she was putting up with him, unable to get out.

The one time a totally wrong word slipped out of his mouth because of what he, himself was facing, Lily ended his friendship and also prophesied he would become a DE. I can't think of anywhere in canon where Snape and Lily had a harmful relationship.

They belonged to two different Houses; they came from a background that was as different as could be. If Lily was still friends with this boy, I am quite sure it was because she wanted to be friends, rather than because she was forced into that friendship for some reason or another.
Just to clarify, a harmful realtionship doesn't always equal physical or emotional abuse (if that is the kind of abuse you're referring to). And I did not imply that Lily was forced into realtionship with no way out. Some people who do stay in relationships that aren't very good for them do so of their own free will. (And that does not justify the person doing the harm. Ever.)

I don't think Snape was necessarily abusive to Lily, but I feel he had a total disregard for her well being as a muggleborn and her own personal feelings. If you read my old post a couple pages back (Post# 1080), I posted an excerpt from TPT chapter in how Snape totally disregards Lily's feelings about his friends (how she was creeped out by Mulciber) by changing the subject to the Maurauders and not willing to discuss her concerns any further. Then there is the case where Snape was using the term mudblood and even calling her one. Given what this word means, this is a huge offense and total underappreciation of who Lily is. Why should she have to stay with someone who does that to her?

I also understand that the TPT memories are a very limited view in Snape and Lily's realtionship. The purpose of those memories was for Snape to prove to Harry why he was on the good side. That he loved Lily, what he did wrong to push her away, and why he had to make up for them. I don't think Snape meant to imply that "Lily was sometimes unreasonable." Snape selected these specific memories to show what his own mistakes.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; December 10th, 2009 at 5:30 pm.
  #1119  
Old December 10th, 2009, 5:36 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling
While there are parallels between Draco & Sev’s childhood experiences of the DE’s, their reasons for joining were also different – Severus was not in the extreme situation Draco was although Sev’s situation was unenviable he was not having his parents or himself directly threatened. Also while Draco became a DE just before his 6th year at Hogwarts we don't know when Sev did, but I don't think he was a member during SWM do you?
Actually, no I don't think that.

But we also don't know what Voldemort used to play mindgames with Snape after he did join. I think it's implied in the text that everyone felt their families were in some danger, like the Malfoys. Snape's father was a Muggle and his mother wouldn't have been able to stand up to Voldemort, so I think it's possible he was blackmailed by that. There's just no canon and I wish there was. I still want to know what happened to the Snape family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstar
I also understand that the TPT memories are a very limited view in Snape and Lily's realtionship. The purpose of those memories was for Snape to prove to Harry why he was on the good side. That he loved Lily, what he did wrong to push her away, and why he had to make up for them. I don't think Snape meant to imply that "Lily was sometimes unreasonable." The memories shown were all about Snape's own mistakes.
I think we have enough dialogue from Lily in Prince's Tale so that each reader can judge for themselves if Lily was in the wrong somehow. I think that's a fair question we each have to figure out on our own. She is not perfect and she seems really judgmental and unforgiving - very different from the way Harry, Hermione, and Ron work things out between them. So I think it's fair to compare Snape/Lily to them on a friendship level in books where the major theme is friendship.

To me, Lily took it for granted that she could tell Snape who his friends should be, but on the other hand, he expected her, as his oldest friend, to be forgiving. I don't think that's too much to ask. Most kids at fifteen are loyal to their friends, but Lily was ready to move on anyway because she was popular and in a different house. It was a no-win situation for both of them.

The memories tell us alot of things about Snape, but also about Dumbledore, Lily, the Marauders, and Harry himself. They aren't just about one thing or another. JMO.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; December 10th, 2009 at 5:38 pm.
  #1120  
Old December 10th, 2009, 5:59 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I think we have enough dialogue from Lily in Prince's Tale so that each reader can judge for themselves if Lily was in the wrong somehow. I think that's a fair question we each have to figure out on our own. She is not perfect and she seems really judgmental and unforgiving - very different from the way Harry, Hermione, and Ron work things out between them. So I think it's fair to compare Snape/Lily to them on a friendship level in books where the major theme is friendship.
Actually, I don't think it's fair to compare their frienship to the Trio. We have 7 whole books to see how Harry and his friendship with Ron and Hermione evolved, and there were still trouble in different places as well. I don't think 5 memories cuts it or shows exactly what went on in thier friendship.

Going back to why these specific memories are selected. Obviously this is my personal take, but plotwise and in regards to Snape's intent, those memories were meant to show Snape's mistakes. If those memories were to show what he did wrong to Lily, of course a lot of what we see are arguments. Notice there is a huge jump in the memories from the sorting to 5th year. That's a huge gap of information that we don't have. Because this was all about how Snape lost Lily, not everything that happened in the friendship.


Quote:
To me, Lily took it for granted that she could tell Snape who his friends should be, but on the other hand, he expected her, as his oldest friend, to be forgiving. I don't think that's too much to ask. Most kids at fifteen are loyal to their friends, but Lily was ready to move on anyway because she was popular and in a different house. It was a no-win situation for both of them.
And as I said, Snape disregarded her feelings and her well being as a muggleborn by hanging around with future deatheaters and by using the word mudblood himself. And yet through all that, he's asking her to stay with him. I would argue that Snape (though not intentionally) IS asking her for too much. I don't blame her for finally leaving. No one should have to tolerate that in a friendship or any relationship.


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