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Severus Snape's Death v2.



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  #81  
Old June 21st, 2008, 12:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I thought Peter's death was also cruel and suffering. He choked himself with his own hand - imagine him gurgling and suffering knowing he was going to die.
Yes, I agree, it was a really horrible death.

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So I think his death was equally gruesome as Snape's. I agree that JKR did not base deaths on people's lives (Voldemort's was rather quick and easy).
No, I don't think she does either.

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I more feel that it was based on Snape's character - the whole chasing Slytherin thing and how it comes back to bit you deal and then Harry being there to allow him to complete his duty to Dumbledore spoke to his turning sides. But Snape also spent his life directly making other's suffer imo (as did Peter) so I personally feel that he got a lesson there in understanding what suffering on one's own behalf meant (as opposed to suffering over something else.)
There we disagree. I think that Snape already knew perfectly well what it was to suffer on one's own behalf: he suffered atrocious grief and remorse on the night he learned that Lily had been murdered (knowing of course that his own callous folly had indirectly caused her death).

I agree with the Slytherin symbolism in the scene.

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He could still loathe the men, but additionally accept the facts as they were upon his death.
I guess so, yes.


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  #82  
Old June 22nd, 2008, 8:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

1. When you read Snape's death scene, how did you react?

When i first read this scene i had a mix of emotions, I think the main one was pity because he had spent his life in love with someone who was no longer alive. I also felt kind of happy because i had been confused over him being good and bad all along.

2. Could Snape have done more to prevent his own death, at least in this manner or was it inevitable?

I think Snape may have been able to do more to prevent his death for a short while like he did for dumbledore. I however dont think he wanted to live any longer, he had nothing to live for any more. I suppose he still had his own task of watching over Harry, but i think he knew he would be ok any way.

3. Do you consider Snape's death fitting with the tragic life he had brought upon himself?

The way he died just wrapped up his whole sad existence really.

4. Was it the sort of death you thought you'd ever see in the Harry Potter novels, bearing in mind it was more brutal and bloody than death at the hands of the Killing Curse?

For older readers i think deaths like this are more easy to understand, because there was alot of emotional baggage attached. Which just made it even more horrific. I think this is current throughout the book.

5. Up until his death what had your thoughts been on whether Snape would live or die and what were your reasons for believing what you did?

I always thought that snape would live, i dont really no why i just imagined him always being there to hate Harry. lol


6. When Snape saw Harry do you believe he activated the memories to come out of him or do you believe they would have come out anyway regardless of whether anyone showed up?

These memories would have come out whatever i think. No matter how horrible he was i dont think snape would have wanted to die with every one thinking he was actually a baddy.


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  #83  
Old June 23rd, 2008, 2:19 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
There we disagree. I think that Snape already knew perfectly well what it was to suffer on one's own behalf: he suffered atrocious grief and remorse on the night he learned that Lily had been murdered (knowing of course that his own callous folly had indirectly caused her death).

I agree with the Slytherin symbolism in the scene.
I agree, that is not the suffering I was speaking of; I think he felt that again after Nagini bit him and he knew he would die. I was speaking of prior to that when Voldemort was discussing why he had to kill Snape. It was completely unfair and Voldemort knew that - but Snape knew it was even more unfair than Voldemort thought because the dark lord didn't know of the plans between Snape and Dumbledore and he couldn't tell him.


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Old July 14th, 2008, 9:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

1. When you read Snape's death scene, how did you react?

I was so sad that I cried. I felt so sorry for him. He wanted to be with Lily so badly and spent his entire life protecting Harry for her. He did pretty much everything for her. He was unloved and I thought Dumbledore was a bit harsh toward him. I really wish he wasn't killed :'(.

2. Could Snape have done more to prevent his own death, at least in this manner or was it inevitable?

When he was in the shack with Voldemort, he could have at least fought him or if only Harry (or the others with him) had tried to curse Voldemort. They might have escaped. If only the elder wand was placed somewhere where Voldemort couldn't get his hands on it. Snape would have been safe.

3. Do you consider Snape's death fitting with the tragic life he had brought upon himself?

Well, it was a horribly sad death and a terrible way to go, so I suppose it does fit his sad sad life.

4. Was it the sort of death you thought you'd ever see in the Harry Potter novels, bearing in mind it was more brutal and bloody than death at the hands of the Killing Curse?

When I think about it yes. I kind-of thought of the series was being directed more toward kids at first, but, as the series progressed I could see how deep and almost dark her story and characters are.

5. Up until his death what had your thoughts been on whether Snape would live or die and what were your reasons for believing what you did?

His death had been a total shocker for me. I really didn't think about him dying or about any of the other characters dying. When I read the series, I just flew through it. I just wanted to see what would happen next and I didn't really take the time to analyze things.


6. When Snape saw Harry do you believe he activated the memories to come out of him or do you believe they would have come out anyway regardless of whether anyone showed up?

Well, it was a bit strange that his memories came out like that. None of the others who had died had their memories seep out of them like that. His memories were quite specific, too. It seems like he chose certain memories, only the ones that showed how he had loved Lily, was mistreated by James, involved with Voldemort, and was used by Dumbledore in a very important plan. So, ya, I think he saw Harry and wanted him (at least him) to know the truth about who he and Dumbledore was; and to know the plan that he was a part of.


ONE OTHER THING....


I have a question that is a little off topic. Snape grabs Harry and tells him to look at him. Why do you think he wanted Harry to do this? I thought maybe he wanted Harry to look into his eyes to see something that would make him suddenly realize something about Snape, before he sees the memories. Did he want to tell him something? Harry saw something in Snape's eyes go out, which is strange because he usually describes Snape as having empty eyes like tunels. What do you think was that something? I'm curious.



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  #85  
Old July 14th, 2008, 3:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

1. When you read Snape's death scene, how did you react?
I think I was too shocked and confused to have any real reaction. I'm pretty sure I was glad he was killed, but I can't remember much else.

2. Could Snape have done more to prevent his own death, at least in this manner or was it inevitable?

He could have tried to fight Voldemort, I suppose, but I don't think it would have accomplished much.

3. Do you consider Snape's death fitting with the tragic life he had brought upon himself?
I think it's very fitting that the Dark Lord he chose to join was the one to kill him. I've never found his death particularly tragic. I think it's sad that he died before anyone knew the truth about what he had done, but I bet, had he lived, he would have kept it all hushed up anyway.

4. Was it the sort of death you thought you'd ever see in the Harry Potter novels, bearing in mind it was more brutal and bloody than death at the hands of the Killing Curse?
Sure. After an army of dead bodies attacking Harry in HBP, I don't think anything could have surprised me. Voldemort was brutal, which we were fully aware of. I don't think it was anymore torturous than the cruciatus curse, which we had already seen multiple times, just more graphic and bloody.

5. Up until his death what had your thoughts been on whether Snape would live or die and what were your reasons for believing what you did?
I was spoiled on his death, and I remember being fairly excited for it.


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Old July 14th, 2008, 3:21 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by LusciousLucius View Post
Snape grabs Harry and tells him to look at him. Why do you think he wanted Harry to do this? I thought maybe he wanted Harry to look into his eyes to see something that would make him suddenly realize something about Snape, before he sees the memories. Did he want to tell him something? Harry saw something in Snape's eyes go out, which is strange because he usually describes Snape as having empty eyes like tunels. What do you think was that something? I'm curious.
I took the statement to have a double meaning. First, a request that Harry actually look at his memories, to learn what he really was like. And second, for Harry to look at him, so that he could die while looking into Harry's eyes - you know, the ones that look just like Lily's.


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  #87  
Old July 14th, 2008, 6:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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He could have tried to fight Voldemort, I suppose, but I don't think it would have accomplished much.
Yeees, indeed. He didn't try to fight Voldemort. And I keep on considering that this scene was well planned by Snape and Dumbledore and Snape hasn't died. Snape knew that Voldemort would try to apply Nagini against him, because he considered that Snape was the master of the Elder Wand. Therefore he needed to kill Snape to become the master of the Wand and to do it not by the Elder Wand (again, he thought Snape was its master). Voldemort's second weapon is Nagini and Snape must have met with Voldemort just in a moment Nagini was being defended by Voldemort's spells to deliver the truth to Potter. So Snape hardly couldn't provide for Nagini's attack. But he couldn't let himself rist because he was to deliver the information to Potter. And naturally he couldn't know that Potter would be in The Shrieking Shack just in time of Nagini's attack. What if Potter hadn't come to the Shack?

And I think that to defend himself against Nagini's bite isn't very hard challenge for Snape. He might use antidote or something else. Even Mr Weasley hadn't been killed by Nagini, though he had been waiting for help much more time than had passed from Nagini's bite till Snape's death.


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Old July 14th, 2008, 6:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Yeees, indeed. He didn't try to fight Voldemort. And I keep on considering that this scene was well planned by Snape and Dumbledore and Snape hasn't died. Snape knew that Voldemort would try to apply Nagini against him, because he considered that Snape was the master of the Elder Wand. Therefore he needed to kill Snape to become the master of the Wand and to do it not by the Elder Wand (again, he thought Snape was its master). Voldemort's second weapon is Nagini and Snape must have met with Voldemort just in a moment Nagini was being defended by Voldemort's spells to deliver the truth to Potter. So Snape hardly couldn't provide for Nagini's attack. But he couldn't let himself rist because he was to deliver the information to Potter. And naturally he couldn't know that Potter would be in The Shrieking Shack just in time of Nagini's attack. What if Potter hadn't come to the Shack?

And I think that to defend himself against Nagini's bite isn't very hard challenge for Snape. He might use antidote or something else. Even Mr Weasley hadn't been killed by Nagini, though he had been waiting for help much more time than had passed from Nagini's bite till Snape's death.
I really don't think Dumbledore and Snape knew that Voldemort would use Nagini to kill Snape. While Voldemort may not have used the elder wand, he still had his old yew wand with him. That wand behaved strangely only against Harry, not against others, so Voldemort could have killed Snape with that; only Snape would not have been able to hand over the memories to Harry. So JKR (I'm afraid it was all her ) made Voldmeort kill Snape with Nagini and also got Harry to Snape before he died IMO.


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  #89  
Old July 14th, 2008, 6:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

I thought Rowling established Voldemort's choice of weapon aginast Snape well. Nagini he has been using to kill, attack, or eat his victims since GoF. In DH, in addition to feeding her Charity Burbage, Voldemort used her to attack Harry. In addition, Rowling allowed Harry (and thus us) to inhabit the mind of Voldemort at the moment he retired the yew wand in favor of his new one:

DH,"The Wandmaker"He raised the old yew wand: How fitting that this would be its last great act.


While he could certainly have brought the yew wand out of retirement, I found it quite in character, because of both the points above, that he did not. It would be a step back from a previous decision, as it were, and Voldemort does not seem to me a person who favors such an approach.


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  #90  
Old July 14th, 2008, 6:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by Jetty View Post
Yeees, indeed. He didn't try to fight Voldemort. And I keep on considering that this scene was well planned by Snape and Dumbledore and Snape hasn't died. Snape knew that Voldemort would try to apply Nagini against him, because he considered that Snape was the master of the Elder Wand. Therefore he needed to kill Snape to become the master of the Wand and to do it not by the Elder Wand (again, he thought Snape was its master). Voldemort's second weapon is Nagini and Snape must have met with Voldemort just in a moment Nagini was being defended by Voldemort's spells to deliver the truth to Potter. So Snape hardly couldn't provide for Nagini's attack. But he couldn't let himself rist because he was to deliver the information to Potter. And naturally he couldn't know that Potter would be in The Shrieking Shack just in time of Nagini's attack. What if Potter hadn't come to the Shack?

And I think that to defend himself against Nagini's bite isn't very hard challenge for Snape. He might use antidote or something else. Even Mr Weasley hadn't been killed by Nagini, though he had been waiting for help much more time than had passed from Nagini's bite till Snape's death.
I think it was completely unexpected all round. Dumbledore was planning heavily on the hope that Snape would become the Master of the Elder Wand, and I'm pretty certain that Snape still believed that he had done exactly that. It only became clear to Snape that in fact Draco was the Elder Wand's master in the last minutes of his life.

I think the reason that Snape died without a fight was partly because of the location of his wound, and partly because he was ready to die at that moment and accepted that he would. The bite in the neck would have most likely have killed him even if Nagini didn't have any venom in her fangs and Snape must have known that it would be futile to try and save himself after that bite. You talk about an antidote, but do you really think that Voildemort would have let Snape crawl back to the castle and get an antidote to cur himself? He was too far gone then, IMO. Also, although he hadn't delivered his message to Harry, I think he welcomed death as a release from the painful life he had been living up until this moment.

It was of course a very lucky chance that Harry went to the Shrieking Shack, and if he hadn't then the story would have turned out very differently. Snape's death served a purpose and made Snape's story even more heartbreaking because he would never be recognised in his life for what he had done. It was the perfect ending for a fantastic character.


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  #91  
Old July 14th, 2008, 6:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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I think it was completely unexpected all round. Dumbledore was planning heavily on the hope that Snape would become the Master of the Elder Wand, and I'm pretty certain that Snape still believed that he had done exactly that.
Albus did not explain the wand to Snape in their conversation of "The Prince's Tale" in which Albus asked Snape to kill him. So I am curious why you think Snape knew of the Elder Wand and believed himself its master. I'm a year later still up in the air about what exactly Snape and Albus discussed on this topic and when, so I am very interested in your answer.

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It only became clear to Snape that in fact Draco was the Elder Wand's master in the last minutes of his life.
I do not see what in that final conversation would have changed Snape's mind about his own mastery of the Elder Wand. Voldemort seemed convinced Snape was the man to kill.


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  #92  
Old July 14th, 2008, 7:00 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I thought Rowling established Voldemort's choice of weapon aginast Snape well. Nagini he has been using to kill, attack, or eat his victims since GoF. In DH, in addition to feeding her Charity Burbage, Voldemort used her to attack Harry. In addition, Rowling allowed Harry (and thus us) to inhabit the mind of Voldemort at the moment he retired the yew wand in favor of his new one:

DH,"The Wandmaker"He raised the old yew wand: How fitting that this would be its last great act.


While he could certainly have brought the yew wand out of retirement, I found it quite in character, because of both the points above, that he did not. It would be a step back from a previous decision, as it were, and Voldemort does not seem to me a person who favors such an approach.
So, zg, you think Dumbledore and Snape anticipated that Voldmeort would kill Nagini? For that pre-supposes two things; one Snape knew he was going to die and that too because of the elder wand and two, that Snape and Dumbledore would also know and anticipate that Voldmeort would use Nagini to do that act when the time came.


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  #93  
Old July 14th, 2008, 7:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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So, zg, you think Dumbledore and Snape anticipated that Voldmeort would kill Nagini? For that pre-supposes two things; one Snape knew he was going to die and that too because of the elder wand and two, that Snape and Dumbledore would also know and anticipate that Voldmeort would use Nagini to do that act when the time came.
No, that is not what I meant. I am not sure what, if anmything, Snape and Albus ever discussed about the Elder Wand.

I am saying that Voldemort was established as a character who would logically use Nagini to kill a wizard he believed it was wiser not to kill using the Elder Wand. To us, the readers. Not to Albus or Snape.

You seemed to me to be criticizing Snape's manner of death as contrived to make the plot work. While it certainly did make the plot work, to me it was not at all contrived, as it flowed smoothly and logically from the character development of Voldemort in DH and earlier books.


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  #94  
Old July 14th, 2008, 7:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Albus did not explain the wand to Snape in their conversation of "The Prince's Tale" in which Albus asked Snape to kill him. So I am curious why you think Snape knew of the Elder Wand and believed himself its master. I'm a year later still up in the air about what exactly Snape and Albus discussed on this topic and when, so I am very interested in your answer.
So, Snape didn't know? Gosh, it's been a while since I've read Deathly Hallows. I guess it makes sense that Snape wouldn't know about it because Snape couldn't know too much information in case he was found out as a spy. Yes, that does make more sense because Dumbledore couldn't risk Voldemort knowing his plan. But Snape must have known a bit about the Elder Wand because of the motive to kill Dumbledore - to pass the Elder Wand to Snape, right? Or was Snape under a different impression? As I said it's been a while since I've read Snape's death .


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Old July 14th, 2008, 7:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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posted by zgirniusYou seemed to me to be criticizing Snape's manner of death as contrived to make the plot work. While it certainly did make the plot work, to me it was not at all contrived, as it flowed smoothly and logically from the character development of Voldemort in DH and earlier books.
Contrived, yes, but only because Voldmeort killed using Nagini, and made it possible for Snape to hand over the memories to Harry (who came there right on time) and then die looking into Harry's eyes.

Had the memories been given in another manner I would not have felt so; in fact I feel that the killing of Snape by Nagini in itself was okay ( we could always say that Voldemort did not want to use thr EW and for some reason, perhaps he did not even have the yew wand with him and so used Nagini); but events did not stop there; what followed was what made it look as if it was for the plot IMO.

LoonyMagic, Snape IMO did not know about the elder wand and he did not know why Dumbledore wanted him to kill DD; he was IMO under the impression he was doing Dumbledore a favour, so that he could die the way he wanted to.


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  #96  
Old July 14th, 2008, 7:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by LoonyMagic View Post
I think it was completely unexpected all round. Dumbledore was planning heavily on the hope that Snape would become the Master of the Elder Wand, and I'm pretty certain that Snape still believed that he had done exactly that. It only became clear to Snape that in fact Draco was the Elder Wand's master in the last minutes of his life.
He definitely knew that Draco was the Elder Wand's Master. Draco disarmed Dumbledore on the Tower, then Snape came there and he must have realised it. And he must had been known that disarming provides the Elder's Wand's passing to the new Master. And even if he hadn't noticed it, Dumbledore definitely would have said it to Snape, because he Dumbledore exactly knew he was disarmed and he wasn't the Elder Wand's Master any more.

Snape could just pretend to be died to let Voldemort go. And Draught of Living Death is pretty right for that. And in any case Snape couldn't have died for such little space - platelets are still in wizards' bodies


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Old July 14th, 2008, 7:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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He definitely knew that Draco was the Elder Wand's Master. Draco disarmed Dumbledore on the Tower, then Snape came there and he must have realised it. And he must had been known that disarming provides the Elder's Wand's passing to the new Master. And even if he hadn't noticed it, Dumbledore definitely would have said it to Snape, because he Dumbledore exactly knew he was disarmed and he wasn't the Elder Wand's Master any more.

Snape could just pretend to be died to let Voldemort go. And Draught of Living Death is pretty right for that. And in any case Snape couldn't have died for such little space - platelets are still in wizards' bodies
Where is he? You feel he is drifting in space under the affects of the Draught of Living Death?


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Old July 14th, 2008, 8:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by LoonyMagic View Post
So, Snape didn't know? Gosh, it's been a while since I've read Deathly Hallows.
Oh, OK, I thought you might have had a theory about stuff that was only hinted atm or something like that.

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Or was Snape under a different impression? As I said it's been a while since I've read Snape's death .
Snape was under the impression Albus wanted him to be the one to kill him to spare Draco, and to save Albus from the pain and humilitation that would likely result if he died at the hands of a Death Eater of the Bella/Greyback ilk.


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  #99  
Old July 14th, 2008, 11:17 pm
LusciousLucius  Female.gif LusciousLucius is offline
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

I think that Snape definately knew that Draco disarmed Dumbledore. He knew that Draco was suppose to kill Dumbledore and when he arrived on the scene Draco was facing Dumbledore, and Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to obviously kill him. He told Snape he wanted to die a painless death, unlike how a lot of the death eaters kill their prey. I think Snape felt that he was doing Dumbledore a favor. And, when Snape was talking to Voldemort in the shack, he must have sensed that Voldemort was going to kill him. He couldn't have told Voldemort that he wasn't the owner of the wand and that Draco was the one who was the true owner, because he made that blood promise to Narcissa, which he obviously had to keep. When he was bitten by the snake, I doubt he could have done anything at that point. It was a huge snake and the way that Rowling described how the blood was coming from his neck, I wouldn't be surprised if the snake bit the (what's it called) jugular vein (the main vein in your neck). If the snake did then Snape really couldn't have stopped the bleeding. I still think he could have tried to fight for his life. He had an opportunity to attack Voldemort right after Voldemort made it clear he was going to have to kill him in order to get the Elder Wand. *Sigh* I just loved Snape and wish he had lived .


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Old July 15th, 2008, 2:51 am
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The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by LusciousLucius View Post
I think that Snape definately knew that Draco disarmed Dumbledore. He knew that Draco was suppose to kill Dumbledore and when he arrived on the scene Draco was facing Dumbledore, and Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to obviously kill him.
Even if Snape had observed Dumbledore's wand that was lying down (and that's a great point) I still feel that he would not have made the connection with the Elder wand. Not unless Dumbledore told him all about it. In which case he would have been watching Draco carefully, because Draco held in his hands the most deadly weapon, and that point would have been mentioned in the books because of the importance of the Elder wand IMO. But I don't think Snape knew.

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*Sigh* I just loved Snape and wish he had lived .
Me too.


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