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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1461  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:15 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
One thing that keeps coming up is how this or that character is "flawed." There is not a character in the entire series of books that is NOT flawed.
Of course every character is flawed. It seems to me though, that when Severus Snape's flaws are brought up, they're excused away and he is turned into some kind of martyr, sinned against by all - defenceless against the Marauders (even though he invented spells like Sectumsempra and less seriously, Levicorpus); Lily didn't give him a chance; he had to use the word Mudblood against others and join the DEs because of pressure from his Slytherin friends; Dumbledore instructed him to be unpleasant to the students, etc etc. If these are the arguments, what faults is Severus Snape himself responsible for? I think that's why people point out rather regularly on this thread (and the main Snape thread) that Snape is flawed.


Quote:
Severus' noticing her abilities and realizing what they were might also have been a relief to her, giving her someone other than her parents who were aware of and approved of her powers. His knowledge of magic and what witches and wizards were capable of, and, more than likely sharing a lot of this with her, again IMO, would have drawn her to him.
I can see why Lily would have been drawn initially to someone else who shared her mysterious abilities.

Quote:
Later, at Hogwarts, Lily found a whole new world. She was not only in a whole group of magical people, but, as she grew older, she was a very attractive young woman who drew the notice of people like James Potter.

I'm not sure that Lily's and Severus' friendship was ever more to her than someone to share her magical knowledge and abilities -- her "secret" -- with. There's no indication of much else between them.

If their friendship had only been based on someone to share her magical knowledge, it would have fizzled out long before the end of fifth year. They would have grown apart as she made other friends if there hadn't been more to it than that mutual interest in their abilities.


Quote:
I feel that, as Lily found her own way she needed Severus less and less, and, the importance of his friendship also waned. Whether Lily, after all the teasing and criticism by others, was looking for an opportunity to rid herself of Severus or not, is up to personal interpretation. But, I don't feel that being called a name, even "Mudblood," should have been enough to end a true friendship. I agree with those who have suggested that a slap in the face would have been a more normal reaction. Besides, forgiving, as Donkey says in Shrek, "is what friends do."

That Lily deserts her friend at a time when she sees him moving closer and closer to the dark side of magic seems out of character for a person that everyone later describes as so kind and caring. This is why I'm more prone to believe she was looking for a reason to end the "friendship," as it was becoming more inconvenient and less useful to her.

A slap in the face? That's maybe suitable if someone calls you the b-word. Mudblood has been quite clearly shown as the Wizarding world's equivalent of the worst racial slurs in the real world. I think that isn't exactly "slap him and get over it" material. More worrying than that is what it implies -that he, at that time, i.e. his school years, Severus, on some level, saw Lily as a Mudblood, but it didn't matter as he loved her. What she needed in a friend was someone who didn't care about blood purity.

I'm not inclined to believe Lily was looking for an excuse to end the friendship -maybe she could have handled it better, but it wasn't as if she was just waiting for something to happen, imo. As for the opinions of other influencing her, Lily was someone who did her own thing -she'd been friends with Severus for years, though her friends didn't approve; as you said, she used her magic, even though Tuney didn't approve; she reacted angrily to Severus saying "I won't let you-" she confronted popular boys like James and Sirius over bullying Severus. I don't think she was motivated by what other people thought.



Quote:
This is not a criticism of Lily, so don't come after me with the torches and pitchforks. Lily, like Severus and all the others, had human faults. It was only natural as she became more and more popular with other students and with teachers, and, as her talents became acknowledged more, that Lily would seek to better herself. Severus would never measure up in looks, background, or money. The only thing he seemed to have was talent, and, that was taking a turn that Lily didn't like or agree with. So, her breaking away from him was almost a given.
This makes Lily seem extremely shallow and I can't see it from what we know of her. Lily made efforts to help Severus to see the direction he was taking but he wasn't inclined to take her concerns seriously, imo.


Quote:
I think the relationship was one of two people needing each other for different reasons. I think Severus eventually fell in love with Lily because of the type of person she was. I don't think Lily ever loved Severus. She grew away from him, and, he let her go. But, he still loved her. Maybe, as a minion of Voldemort, he saw a chance to have her. Then, he realized what he had done and ran to the only person he knew who could help, Dumbledore.

He fell in love because of the type of person she was? You mean someone who lost interest in him so she could better herself? Because Severus didn't have wealth, looks or money? That doesn't say much good about either of them, imo.


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  #1462  
Old January 27th, 2010, 6:00 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
A slap in the face? That's maybe suitable if someone calls you the b-word. Mudblood has been quite clearly shown as the Wizarding world's equivalent of the worst racial slurs in the real world. I think that isn't exactly "slap him and get over it" material. More worrying than that is what it implies -that he, at that time, i.e. his school years, Severus, on some level, saw Lily as a Mudblood, but it didn't matter as he loved her. What she needed in a friend was someone who didn't care about blood purity.
I was going to reply to that, but you beat me to it.

Though I don't agree the b-word is any less worse than a racial slur (and that's a whole other debate), it's true that a slap-in-the-face would not suffice one calling their best friend a mudblood. If anything, Snape is the one who should have known better. Not to mention that we're given the context of how/why mudblood is used all the way from Book 2. It's associated with blood purity, the indication that those who are mudbloods are less human. This is some pretty dark stuff if you think about it, as it really does reflect real life racism to a good degree. If there's one thing I got from reading Lily in the text, is that she doesn't take disrespect from anyone, even from the people she cares about. So being referred to as something that is less human and soiled blood, during a time where a war was brewing to persecute these people, that should not fly.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; January 27th, 2010 at 6:02 am.
  #1463  
Old January 27th, 2010, 6:11 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Deep down I think he in Love, he was hopelessly in love with her, and would believe anything she told him.


  #1464  
Old January 27th, 2010, 6:23 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
A slap in the face? That's maybe suitable if someone calls you the b-word. Mudblood has been quite clearly shown as the Wizarding world's equivalent of the worst racial slurs in the real world. I think that isn't exactly "slap him and get over it" material. More worrying than that is what it implies -that he, at that time, i.e. his school years, Severus, on some level, saw Lily as a Mudblood, but it didn't matter as he loved her.
I agree with the Lily-defenders on this matter. If one my ex-boss's friends had called her the n- word (just slipped out you know), I'm sure it would have had very serious repercussions beyond a slap in the face. That friendship would have been over yesterday... no last year! And in the Wizarding World, Mudblood is every bit as nasty a term as the n- word.


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  #1465  
Old January 27th, 2010, 7:10 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Just going back to that Doe patronus for a moment....while the doe is supposed to represent Lily there is also a VERY good literary reason for JKR to make his patronus take that form.

It's all about the scene where the Doe leads Harry to the Sword of Gryffindor. This scene relates back to a dream Harry once had, where he was following some white gleaming hoofed animal in the woods, while CARRYING his broom. Now, we KNOW the animal is a deer it is a pretty direct allusion to King Arthur's following a white hart (deer) alone, without his horse or hunting party to Sir Pellinore's well. Giving us a rather strong Harry/King Arthur vibe that leads us to the Sword of Gryffindor/ Excaliber parallels.

Also following or hunting white animals throughout celtic legend represent a trip to the 'otherworld' - this is not only another reference to all the 'underworld' symbology JKR has put in every book of the series (hinting in this case at Harry's close call with death in the pond AND the whole horcrux/immortality issue - especially since it is the Accidental Horcrux IN Harry that allows him to return from his 'otherworld' meeting later in the book with Albus at Kings Cross.

So - Snape's patronus MUST be a deer for this allusion to work - and JKR certainly wasn't going to make it a stag - that would be representative of either James' animagus form, who Snape could hardly see as any kind of protector or more likely Harry's patronus (since medieval symbology has the deer as a symbol for Christ), for whom Snape is actually the protector, not the other way around. Therefore it MUST be a doe instead.

And what better patronus for the man who protects Harry than a symbol of Harry's mother whose protection of Harry laid in Harry's 'very skin'? Especially since Snape's love of Lily was the reason Voldy offered her a chance to live - thus leading to her protection of Harry by her death in the first place.

Lastly, we KNOW it is indicative of the strength of his love because JKR gave us a direct comparison when Harry first sees Tonks new patronus in Bk6. Snape sneers over the weakness of it. And he IS correct - Tonks' patrounus is so weak in that instance that Harry cannot even tell that it not Padfoot (whose form Harry knows well) and is instead Remus' werewolf form - which would not really have the same bulk of size that 'padfoots' (grims) are supposed to have.

The main reason Tonks' patronus is weak is because she is depressed over Remus' not wanting to admit returning her love at that time. And yet Snape's patronus is shining so brightly, showing Harry the way to the sword, even though Snape is absolutely CONVINCED that his own love for Lily was unrequited. In other words, similar situations - unrequited love - and yet vastly different patroni strengths. Tonks' is dependent upon being loved back. Snape's love is exceedingly strong even knowing it is not returned.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; January 27th, 2010 at 7:57 am.
  #1466  
Old January 27th, 2010, 8:25 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
The main reason Tonks' patronus is weak is because she is depressed over Remus' not wanting to admit returning her love at that time. And yet Snape's patronus is shining so brightly, showing Harry the way to the sword, even though Snape is absolutely CONVINCED that his own love for Lily was unrequited. In other words, similar situations - unrequited love - and yet vastly different patroni strengths. Tonks' is dependent upon being loved back. Snape's love is exceedingly strong even knowing it is not returned.
That is just brilliant, hwyla! I never thought of it that way, but it makes alot of sense.

So . . . Snape is perhaps really saying to Tonks that if love is real, then rejection shouldn't make any difference. She should have faith in her own ability to love, and not let emotional problems destroy her magical ability. That's poignant because Snape has (possibly) been there, done that.

ETA: I don't mean that Snape losing Lily destroyed his magical skill, but the depression resulting from her death nearly made him lose his will to live. So he of all people would understand what Tonks was going through.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; January 27th, 2010 at 9:21 am.
  #1467  
Old January 27th, 2010, 9:15 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Brilliant post Hwyla.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think we can say for certain that Severus never approached Lily again just because it isn't shown. We weren't shown all their conversations over the years, just some crucial ones. I don't see someone as determined as Severus Snape giving up that easily.
I don't think it was because he was not determined; what made him stay away IMO was Lily's feeling about their friendship. She did not want that friendship; she did not want him and that's why I think he stayed away.

Quote:
Snape passed on the prophecy, knowing it would condemn a baby and his family to their deaths, and felt no remorse.
Yes.

But what I find surprising is that he could have been stopped at the Hog's Head itself; he was allowed to get away IMO.

Quote:
He only felt guilt when someone he loved was in peril. I know he eventually came to protect people he disliked. I know he eventually regretted he couldn't save people like Charity Burbage. However, this cold indifference before Lily was threatened is the hardest thing for me to get past.
That's exactly what makes Snape most interesting for me. He was blind like Dumbledore was to the bad things associated with the DEs; perhaps he never even knew or perhaps he knew and yet was blind to it; Lily being targeted was what shook him up, just like Ariana's death made Dumbledore see how far he had fallen IMO.

Once Snape realised his terrible mistake in not just passing the prophecy, but also in joining the DEs, I think the long walk towards seeking forgiveness from himself followed. I don't think Snape was quite successful in that endeavour, but I think he tried until he died, just like Dumbledore did IMO.

I think Snape's anchor was Lily. When Snape lost his anchor, I think he tilted towards the only other attraction that fascinated him. (again I hasten to add none of this was because of Lily; she only played a part where her loss proved disastrous to Snape).

He joined the DEs and I really believe that he did not know of the true extent of their activities like so many others. Draco did not know how tough it could be when he signed up for instance. He joined them and then walked away when Lily was targeted, because of him IMO.


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  #1468  
Old January 27th, 2010, 10:57 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Just going back to that Doe patronus for a moment....while the doe is supposed to represent Lily there is also a VERY good literary reason for JKR to make his patronus take that form.

It's all about the scene where the Doe leads Harry to the Sword of Gryffindor. This scene relates back to a dream Harry once had, where he was following some white gleaming hoofed animal in the woods, while CARRYING his broom. Now, we KNOW the animal is a deer it is a pretty direct allusion to King Arthur's following a white hart (deer) alone, without his horse or hunting party to Sir Pellinore's well. Giving us a rather strong Harry/King Arthur vibe that leads us to the Sword of Gryffindor/ Excalibur parallels.

Also following or hunting white animals throughout celtic legend represent a trip to the 'otherworld' - this is not only another reference to all the 'underworld' symbolic JKR has put in every book of the series (hinting in this case at Harry's close call with death in the pond AND the whole horcrux/immortality issue - especially since it is the Accidental Horcrux IN Harry that allows him to return from his 'otherworld' meeting later in the book with Albus at Kings Cross.

So - Snape's patronus MUST be a deer for this allusion to work - and JKR certainly wasn't going to make it a stag - that would be representative of either James' animagus form, who Snape could hardly see as any kind of protector or more likely Harry's patronus (since medieval symbology has the deer as a symbol for Christ), for whom Snape is actually the protector, not the other way around. Therefore it MUST be a doe instead.

And what better patronus for the man who protects Harry than a symbol of Harry's mother whose protection of Harry laid in Harry's 'very skin'? Especially since Snape's love of Lily was the reason Voldy offered her a chance to live - thus leading to her protection of Harry by her death in the first place.

Lastly, we KNOW it is indicative of the strength of his love because JKR gave us a direct comparison when Harry first sees Tonks new patronus in Bk6. Snape sneers over the weakness of it. And he IS correct - Tonks' patronus is so weak in that instance that Harry cannot even tell that it not Padfoot (whose form Harry knows well) and is instead Remus' werewolf form - which would not really have the same bulk of size that 'padfoots' (grims) are supposed to have.

The main reason Tonks' patronus is weak is because she is depressed over Remus' not wanting to admit returning her love at that time. And yet Snape's patronus is shining so brightly, showing Harry the way to the sword, even though Snape is absolutely CONVINCED that his own love for Lily was unrequited. In other words, similar situations - unrequited love - and yet vastly different patroni strengths. Tonks' is dependent upon being loved back. Snape's love is exceedingly strong even knowing it is not returned.
This theory is very interesting. I find it interesting for several reasons. The allusion to the White Hart as presented in Celtic Mythology. A messenger from the other side representing all that is pure and good. Now who on the other side had a White Stag as his Patronus? Not Snape, but James. Who loved Harry unconditionally, independent of Lily? Not Snape, but James. James and Lily were the original White Hart and Mate. Does this mean that Snape's love for Lily is modeled on their love for each other and Harry? When Harry has his dream, was it Snape's Patronus he was following or was it one of his parents reaching out from the other side? Snape was a Legilimens, was he telepathic as well? If it wasn't Snape then it had to be one of Harry's parents and if the large white animal he was following in his dream was male, then he was following his father.

Sometimes it does seem to me that the doe is representative of Snape's futile love for Lily. I don't mean futile in the sense that it could never be consummated or that it was a negative feeling to have. But futile in the sense that in the end there could be no reward for the emotion invested. Snape loved Lily and love can never be wrong, but it was a love that could never lead to anything. It circled around him, and it could be said, imprisoned him away from any one else. The one single thing that has always made an impression on me about Snape, is his solitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think Snape's anchor was Lily. When Snape lost his anchor, I think he tilted towards the only other attraction that fascinated him. (again I hasten to add none of this was because of Lily; she only played a part where her loss proved disastrous to Snape).

He joined the DEs and I really believe that he did not know of the true extent of their activities like so many others. Draco did not know how tough it could be when he signed up for instance. He joined them and then walked away when Lily was targeted, because of him IMO.
A friend can only anchor you if you are willing to hold on to the rope. It takes an effort on both parts, Lily could only do so much, Snape had to do a lot more, IMO.

Snape was older than Draco and Regulus when he joined. There was more publicity in the first war as The Prophet was not under an embargo about publishing news about Voldemort and the Death Eaters, Also they were not in control of the Ministry then. If Snape didn't know, I can only conclude he didn't want to know. Snape cannot be both a very intelligent person with a deductive and inquiring mind or a naive, impressionable, and easily led young man. The information would have been available, he only had to look for it.


  #1469  
Old January 27th, 2010, 11:25 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Sometimes it does seem to me that the doe is representative of Snape's futile love for Lily. I don't mean futile in the sense that it could never be consummated or that it was a negative feeling to have. But futile in the sense that in the end there could be no reward for the emotion invested.Snape loved Lily and love can never be wrong, but it was a love that could never lead to anything. It circled around him, and it could be said, imprisoned him away from any one else. The one single thing that has always made an impression on me about Snape, is his solitude.
I think Severus' silver doe Patronus represents what Dumbledore described as "the best" of Severus. A love that led to Severus turning away from being a DE, and to his eventual redemption. Redemption being his reward.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; January 27th, 2010 at 11:30 am.
  #1470  
Old January 27th, 2010, 11:31 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I think Severus' silver doe Patronus represents what Dumbledore described as "the best" of Severus. A love that lead to Severus turning away from being a DE, and to his eventual redemption. Redemption being his reward.
I really wouldn't disagree with the fact that Snape was redeemed, but I think he was redeemed in spite of his love for Lily. And that didn't come out right. Redemption has to come from inside a person. I don't think you can be redeemed just because you love someone/something. Redemption is much deeper than that. The love can start the process of redemption, but true redemption comes from a much deeper part of the soul. I think thats my opinion anyway. I still don't think I'm conveying what I feel



Last edited by eliza101; January 27th, 2010 at 11:34 am.
  #1471  
Old January 27th, 2010, 11:36 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I really wouldn't disagree with the fact that Snape was redeemed, but I think he was redeemed in spite of his love for Lily. And that didn't come out right. Redemption has to come from inside a person. I don't think you can be redeemed just because you love someone/something. Redemption is much deeper than that. The love can start the process of redemption, but true redemption comes from a much deeper part of the soul. I think thats my opinion anyway. I still don't think I'm conveying what I feel
Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. I didn't mean he was redeemed because he loved Lily, but because of what that love eventually led him to do.I think it began the process and changed him from within. It was an important part, the catalyst for his eventual change and therefore very important and as such I don't think can be considered as futile.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; January 27th, 2010 at 12:11 pm.
  #1472  
Old January 27th, 2010, 11:42 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. I didn't mean he was redeemed because he loved Lily, but because of what that love eventually led him to do.I think it began the process and changed him from within.
That we can agree on. I think that Lily cannot carry the can for Snape becoming a DE, but neither can his love for her get the credit for his redemption. Just as he made the choice to joine the DE's, he made the choice to turn away and work for the light. Both were his choices, for ill and then good. I really admire that about him.

Lily's choices led her down a different path than Snape's and she never had to make the difficult choice between the Dark and Light parts of her soul.


  #1473  
Old January 27th, 2010, 12:04 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I think he was redeemed in spite of his love for Lily.


Quote:
I don't think you can be redeemed just because you love someone/something. Redemption is much deeper than that. The love can start the process of redemption, but true redemption comes from a much deeper part of the soul. I think thats my opinion anyway. I still don't think I'm conveying what I feel
I think that's rather well said.


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  #1474  
Old January 27th, 2010, 12:17 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post




I think that's rather well said.
Wow GreenWoods, we cannot be agreeing. Let me go get my thermometer.


  #1475  
Old January 27th, 2010, 12:23 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

LOL! I fainted in utter shock already.

I agree with what you said. I also think Snape was redeemed in spite of Lily and you expressed it very well.


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There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

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  #1476  
Old January 27th, 2010, 2:46 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I think Severus' silver doe Patronus represents what Dumbledore described as "the best" of Severus. A love that led to Severus turning away from being a DE, and to his eventual redemption. Redemption being his reward.
I really like the way you put this -- IMO Severus sought no other reward than to try and do what he could to make up for the wrong he'd done Lily. This was the selflessness that, again, IMO, ensured his redemption. He didn't risk his life all that time for power, wealth, fame -- but, only to save Lily's son. I think we see this in how insensed he is with Dumbledore when he learns what is in store for Harry.

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I really wouldn't disagree with the fact that Snape was redeemed, but I think he was redeemed in spite of his love for Lily. And that didn't come out right. Redemption has to come from inside a person. I don't think you can be redeemed just because you love someone/something. Redemption is much deeper than that. The love can start the process of redemption, but true redemption comes from a much deeper part of the soul. I think thats my opinion anyway. I still don't think I'm conveying what I feel
I don't think Severus was redeemed because of his love for Lily, but, because of what he did to show that love. IMO he redeemed himself by risking death, or, even worse, the tortures that Voldemort could come up with (and, maybe even some he made up on the spot out of anger).

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
That we can agree on. I think that Lily cannot carry the can for Snape becoming a DE, but neither can his love for her get the credit for his redemption. Just as he made the choice to joine the DE's, he made the choice to turn away and work for the light. Both were his choices, for ill and then good. I really admire that about him.
I agree. A person makes their own choices. We even see that Dumbledore had made serious mistakes in his life choices as a young man -- and, I think it has to be remembered that Severus was still a teenager when he was becoming a DE. As I mentioned in an earlier post, groups like Voldemort's prey on people like Snape; lonely, isolated, "different." One thing that strikes me about Severus as a young man was that, even though he was able to invent spells such as Levicorpus and Sectumsempra, he never seemed to use them against anyone. Just because he was talented in the Dark Arts, he seemed to be condemned, but, even Bellatrix complains about how little he did when he was a DE when she and Cissy meet with Severus at Spinners End.

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Lily's choices led her down a different path than Snape's and she never had to make the difficult choice between the Dark and Light parts of her soul .
I agree with this too. It was a shame that their lives took such opposite paths.

Also, I have to agree with those who say a slap in the face wasn't sufficient for the slur "Mudblood." Maybe a slap along with dumping the person as a friend. I guess I was looking at the situation from the angle that Severus was using the worst insult that he could in the situation. I was thinking that, being frequently exposed to the dislke/hatred (depending on the witch or wizard) of half-bloods and persons of non-magical parents, he might have tossed it around within his own group. I'm pretty sure that, the same as Lily's friends telling her not to have anyting to do with Severus, his friends were telling him the same thing and probably using the "M" word in reference to her. But, that doesn't excuse him using it.

Looking at the way Severus and Lily were separated and judging from the way Harry gravitated to Gryffindors more than members of other houses, it seems their friendship was doomed from the time they were sorted. But, to see how deeply he'd grown to love her and how that was reflected in his patronus is still so romantic.


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  #1477  
Old January 27th, 2010, 3:28 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I really wouldn't disagree with the fact that Snape was redeemed, but I think he was redeemed in spite of his love for Lily. And that didn't come out right. Redemption has to come from inside a person. I don't think you can be redeemed just because you love someone/something. Redemption is much deeper than that. The love can start the process of redemption, but true redemption comes from a much deeper part of the soul. I think thats my opinion anyway. I still don't think I'm conveying what I feel
My goodness, Eliza! We are agreeing with each other a lot today! I totally agree with this. His love for Lily was the starting point in the redemption arc, not the ending point.


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  #1478  
Old January 27th, 2010, 3:34 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
My goodness, Eliza! We are agreeing with each other a lot today! I totally agree with this. His love for Lily was the starting point in the redemption arc, not the ending point.
Yes, I'm starting to think that ir's not me posting. Maybe I'm running a fever, I even looked up Dante and Beatrice on the web last night to see if I could spot what everyone else was speaking about. You got to keep an open mind, right?


  #1479  
Old January 27th, 2010, 3:34 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Must be something in the air, ladies.


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I held you in my arms, although I knew that death
Had already taken you. I held you close, hoping for a faint heartbeat or breath
To prove me wrong.
But, you were still, and could not hear or see
My grief, my tears, my heartbreak knowing that the rest of my life would be
Spent without you.
  #1480  
Old January 27th, 2010, 6:28 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Also following or hunting white animals throughout celtic legend represent a trip to the 'otherworld' - this is not only another reference to all the 'underworld' symbology JKR has put in every book of the series (hinting in this case at Harry's close call with death in the pond AND the whole horcrux/immortality issue - especially since it is the Accidental Horcrux IN Harry that allows him to return from his 'otherworld' meeting later in the book with Albus at Kings Cross.
Absolutely great post!

Just a little funny thing... I'm reading a book where I've just seen a legend about the foundation of Frankfurt, in Germany. Well, it was founded by the emepror Carolus Magnus (Charlemagne), who crossed the river following a white doe... and then the city name means a "ford of Franks".


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