Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Stone > Legilimency Studies

Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



View Poll Results: How do you think Dumbledore and Snape viewed their relationship?
Colleagues 122 27.85%
Collaborators 225 51.37%
Friends 150 34.25%
Other 127 29.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 438. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #141  
Old January 29th, 2008, 4:01 am
greenheart4life  Male.gif greenheart4life is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3975 days
Posts: 27
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I think that Dumbledore viewed Snape as a valuable spy. But he had to think of him as expendable to put him such dangerous situations


__________________
Proud Member
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #142  
Old January 29th, 2008, 7:06 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

That's how I saw it. Dumbledore had to have known that Snape's life was always at extreme risk. No one other than Snape could have filled that role and provided the information he did. But Snape was always walking on a very narrow tightrope.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old January 30th, 2008, 6:09 pm
LoonyMagic's Avatar
LoonyMagic  Female.gif LoonyMagic is offline
Beauxbatons Champion
 
Joined: 4226 days
Location: Dreaming
Age: 27
Posts: 1,899
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Eeek! This is the first time (I think) I've been brave enough to post in a Snape thread ...

1. What do you believe Snape and Dumbledore's relationship was based on?

In the beginning for Snape it was based upon guilt for his actions and what his actions had caused - the death of the woman he loved. He wanted to repent for what he had done and the best way to do that was to work with Dumbledore. For Dumbledore, initially I think he saw that he had a powerful wizard at his command and could make sure that Harry was safe. In the last few years, I think they had a bond made from mutual respect for one another.

2. How do you think Dumbledore felt about Snape through the course of the series? Did his views on Snape change?

I think in the beginning I think Dumbledore was digusted by the pitiful state that Snape presented himself to him. He saw him more as a tool, a puppet that he could make do his biding. However, in the end he could relate to Snape (their stories, I feel, could be seen as similar), and respected him for what he had done to try and protect Harry.

3. How do you think Snape felt about spying for Dumbledore? Did he resent his job?

In some ways, yes, I think he resented it. He did things without reasons, and only began working for Dumbledore to protect Harry, and now his life was in danger in the most scary way possible. It's not easy being a spy, and I'm sure he never enjoyed what he did.

4. Did Dumbledore and Snape fully trust one another?

I think Snape trusted Dumbledore fully, but that Dumbledore didn't trust Snape fully. Dumbledore never told Snape about the Horcruxes, or gave any explanation towards that. He could have had other reasons for that, but it does seem like a lack of trust. Or maybe DD would have told Snape if it had been neccessary...I'm not sure.

5. Do you think Severus was jealous (in a sibling-type way) of Dumbledore's fondness for Harry?

Not at all. I think Severus was above petty jealousy like that.

6. Do you believe Dumbledore consciously saw the parallels between his own story and Snape's?

Yes, I think he did. He saw that he could relate to Snape's situation as his was similar. I think that's why he ended up respecting Snape in such a way.

7. Dumbledore and Snape worked together for years before Harry showed up. How do you think their relationship changed once Harry came to Hogwarts? Did it change once Voldemort returned in GoF?

Before Harry came to Hogwarts, I doubt they would have met very often, or as urgently. I had the impression that Dumbledore really didn't like Snape at this point. When Harry arrived at Hogwarts, Snape's job began properly. When Voldemort returned, Snape was under much more pressure as a spy and would have probably met with Dumbledore more often. I'm sure he was under a lot of strain, and that at this time it would have been harder for him to get along with Albus. I think this is when Albus became more fond of Severus and began treating him with more care and respect.

8. How would you characterize their relationship when Severus was a student? Do you think that Albus may have been aware of Severus’ interest in the Death Eaters while he was at Hogwarts?

I doubt their relationship went more than teacher and student. Dumbledore seems to know more than the other teachers and I wouldn't be surprised if he had known who all the future Death Eaters would be, at this point.

9. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?

I think they are both connected in what they did for the war and the defeat of Voldemort. Dumbledore was the only person who knew Snape's secret of loving Lily, and of his sacrifice to protect Harry. The two of them worked together in HBP and DH to make sure that Harry could win against Voldemort. As for Harry naming his child after them, well they both were two very influential men, and they both gave up their lives to save Harry, whether it was for the right or wrong reasons.


__________________
Voted Noobie of the Year in The Hogsmeade Awards.

Writing Contest ~ CoS Graphics Contest ~ LoonyMagic's Icons ~ loonyabby_icons at LiveJournal
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old January 30th, 2008, 6:30 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4885 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoonyMagic View Post
Eeek! This is the first time (I think) I've been brave enough to post in a Snape thread ...
Fresh meat!

(Just kidding, , it is always nice to see a new perspective on the issues we are discussing!)
Quote:
4. Did Dumbledore and Snape fully trust one another?

I think Snape trusted Dumbledore fully, but that Dumbledore didn't trust Snape fully. Dumbledore never told Snape about the Horcruxes, or gave any explanation towards that. He could have had other reasons for that, but it does seem like a lack of trust. Or maybe DD would have told Snape if it had been neccessary...I'm not sure.
I'm probably bringing in my baggage as a once-avid reader of spy thrillers, here, but to me, Dumbledore in his dealings with Snape, seems to be sticking to the fundamental rule of "need to know". Consequently, I think he is sincere in his statements to Harry about his 'complete' trust of Severus, but he nonetheless keeps secrets from him for the reasons he gives Severus during their argument in the Forest (Severus's precarious position, 'dangling' on Voldemort's arm). Because there are ways other than deliberate betrayal, that Severus might pass vital information on to Voldemort. (Accident, failure of Occlumency, etc.)


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old January 31st, 2008, 2:27 am
Lord Godric's Avatar
Lord Godric  Male.gif Lord Godric is offline
Squee-worthy
 
Joined: 4895 days
Posts: 4,524
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I'm probably bringing in my baggage as a once-avid reader of spy thrillers, here, but to me, Dumbledore in his dealings with Snape, seems to be sticking to the fundamental rule of "need to know". Consequently, I think he is sincere in his statements to Harry about his 'complete' trust of Severus, but he nonetheless keeps secrets from him for the reasons he gives Severus during their argument in the Forest (Severus's precarious position, 'dangling' on Voldemort's arm). Because there are ways other than deliberate betrayal, that Severus might pass vital information on to Voldemort. (Accident, failure of Occlumency, etc.)
In all of Dumbledore's dealing he was on a "need-to know" basis. If you look at what Dumbledore told members of the Order - they knew nothing about the horcruxes, or why Dumbledore trusted Snape, it you look at Dumbledore and Harry's relationship, only after Harry saw Snape's memories and talked to Dumbledore at King's Cross, did he finally find out everything. Dumbledore was a master manipulator -- which is not a bad thing at all -- but the way Snape treated Snape was no different than how he treated anyone else. Dumbledore and Snape just had a different relationship than anyone else, Dumbledore had to tell Snape certain pieces of information as his spy, that no one else needed to know.


Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old January 31st, 2008, 8:55 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
In all of Dumbledore's dealing he was on a "need-to know" basis. If you look at what Dumbledore told members of the Order - they knew nothing about the horcruxes, or why Dumbledore trusted Snape, it you look at Dumbledore and Harry's relationship, only after Harry saw Snape's memories and talked to Dumbledore at King's Cross, did he finally find out everything. Dumbledore was a master manipulator -- which is not a bad thing at all -- but the way Snape treated Snape was no different than how he treated anyone else. Dumbledore and Snape just had a different relationship than anyone else, Dumbledore had to tell Snape certain pieces of information as his spy, that no one else needed to know.
This is spot on. Not only were all the Order members given information on a need to know basis, but that was very specific to the individual roles each played. In Snape's case, his treatment was unique since none of the other Order members were spies in Voldemort's inner circle. But we did see that he kept certain pieces of information away from Snape in case Voldemort was able to penetrate Snape's mind.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old February 1st, 2008, 12:27 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4263 days
Posts: 6,025
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
This is spot on. Not only were all the Order members given information on a need to know basis, but that was very specific to the individual roles each played. In Snape's case, his treatment was unique since none of the other Order members were spies in Voldemort's inner circle. But we did see that he kept certain pieces of information away from Snape in case Voldemort was able to penetrate Snape's mind.
I agree. But the other Order members knew the dangers of the situation they were in at any time. Snape did too, for almost all things. Only I am not sure, if he was also made aware of the facts pertaining to the Elder wand and was also made aware of the problems that may arise because of that knowledge, considering the fact Dumbledore wanted him to pass on the message to Harry before something happened to him.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old February 1st, 2008, 12:44 pm
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Only I am not sure, if he was also made aware of the facts pertaining to the Elder wand and was also made aware of the problems that may arise because of that knowledge, considering the fact Dumbledore wanted him to pass on the message to Harry before something happened to him.
I don't think he knew. But this would have just been another case of Dumbledore keeping as much information as possible to himself.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old February 1st, 2008, 1:42 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4263 days
Posts: 6,025
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
I don't think he knew. But this would have just been another case of Dumbledore keeping as much information as possible to himself.
Yes, but in this case my opinion is the he should have told Snape about a wand that was surely going to get him killed. We don't know for sure of course because it is not stated so in canon, but well, I seem to see it only that way.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old February 1st, 2008, 2:21 pm
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I think that Dumbledore was wise to keep as much as possible from Snape. It had to be that way to keep Voldemort in the dark, as well.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #151  
Old February 1st, 2008, 2:39 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4263 days
Posts: 6,025
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Even the fact that Snape would be surely hunted down and killed by Voldemort because of the Elder wand? I think it is here I seem to differ from others.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old February 1st, 2008, 3:05 pm
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

It's unfortunate that it left Snape in a bad position. But all of Snape's spying was exceptionally dangerous. His life was always at risk.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old February 1st, 2008, 3:26 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4263 days
Posts: 6,025
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Without his knowledge. In all other matters, he knew the risks and took them willingly. If it comes to light that he did not know, then it would mean in this case he was fighting blind, and that too, when it is clearly apparent he would be killed by Voldemort. My opinion is that decision should have been Snape's to die for the cause and not Dumbledore's to sacrifice him for the same.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 2:36 am
Lord Godric's Avatar
Lord Godric  Male.gif Lord Godric is offline
Squee-worthy
 
Joined: 4895 days
Posts: 4,524
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Without his knowledge. In all other matters, he knew the risks and took them willingly. If it comes to light that he did not know, then it would mean in this case he was fighting blind, and that too, when it is clearly apparent he would be killed by Voldemort. My opinion is that decision should have been Snape's to die for the cause and not Dumbledore's to sacrifice him for the same.
Who is to say it wasn't Snape's decision? Snape would have died for Lily -- or protecting Harry for Lily, and that is just exactly what he did. Also, as pertaining to Dumbledore, Dumbledore knew people would have to be sacrificed for the "Greater Good," it was a chance Dumbledore was willing to take himself, and a chance he assumed those who joined the Order were willing to take as well. Snape knew that his life was always in danger, and he took the risk that all other Order members (and Death Eaters for that matter) took when joining the War.


Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 2:46 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

That's exactly it. All the Order members knew that they were risking their lives. They also put their trust in Dumbledore that all his objectives were for the cause, no matter how risky the assignments. And I'm certain that they all understood that he kept much of the information secret so that Voldemort could not learn their plans.

Snape was already under extreme peril, no matter what he knew about the wand. He had pledged himself to this dangerous task of spying on Voldemort. Knowing more than he needed to would actually put him in more peril, since he might behave differently or Voldemort might accidentally learn something that would hamper the Order in their work. Snape wanted Voldemort defeated, he would not have wanted information that could have aided Voldemort in any way.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 2:58 am
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 4746 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
That's exactly it. All the Order members knew that they were risking their lives. They also put their trust in Dumbledore that all his objectives were for the cause, no matter how risky the assignments. And I'm certain that they all understood that he kept much of the information secret so that Voldemort could not learn their plans.

Snape was already under extreme peril, no matter what he knew about the wand. He had pledged himself to this dangerous task of spying on Voldemort. Knowing more than he needed to would actually put him in more peril, since he might behave differently or Voldemort might accidentally learn something that would hamper the Order in their work. Snape wanted Voldemort defeated, he would not have wanted information that could have aided Voldemort in any way.

I agree in theory. But in the specific case of Snape, Dumbledore, imo, pretty much knew that Snape was going to die for certain over the Elder Wand business. I would put it at 99%. Whereas Snape's normal chance at death, all of which he was aware of, was more like 30%. So it just seems that informing him that he was most probably going to be killed over this matter, would have been the morally correct thing to do, imo. I do agree however, that Dumbledore felt that everyone was worth sacrificing for the greater good - including himself, Harry and anyone else in the wizard world, as long as Voldemort was brought down in the end.


__________________
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 3:19 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I think that Snape would have willingly accepted that he would die over the wand. He seemed willing to die in HBP over the vow, which was why Dumbledore had to plead with Snape at the end of HBP. But I don't see Dumbledore as Machiavellian because he didn't tell Snape. I see it more as grim pragmatism, just like his approach with Harry's possible death.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 5:29 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4263 days
Posts: 6,025
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
Who is to say it wasn't Snape's decision? Snape would have died for Lily -- or protecting Harry for Lily, and that is just exactly what he did. Also, as pertaining to Dumbledore, Dumbledore knew people would have to be sacrificed for the "Greater Good," it was a chance Dumbledore was willing to take himself, and a chance he assumed those who joined the Order were willing to take as well. Snape knew that his life was always in danger, and he took the risk that all other Order members (and Death Eaters for that matter) took when joining the War.
No one, because we really don't know. In previous posts there was much argument about this specifically. I would be very happy to know if it was Snape's decision, because I believe and agree with zgirnius, when she said, the book we read would still be the same and nothing would change if snape did not know. I agree with that. For me, though, it would mean Dumbledore showed Snape that respect and fully trusted him about making the right choices if he told Snape about the Elder wand. And even if Voldemort somehow got this information from snape, even then there are only 2 possibilities IMO and both will not aid Voldemort. One is for him to think Dumbledore remained the master and throw away the wand and the otehr would be to think Snape was lying to him and kill him and think he has become master of the wand.

Both cases he will fail; because only Dumbledore knows that Draco is the owner of the wand; not him and not Snape.

Dumbledore knew people had to be sacrificed for the greater good and I agree with you. All Order members too knew they had a risk of dying, as did Snape. But when it looks like a particular activity is surely going to have only one result and that is death and we have information in canon in the King's Cross Chapter that Dumbledore knew from the time Harry came back with the Prior Incantatem information that Voldemort would start his search for another more powerful wand, and he knows that Voldemort's obsession over the Elder wand rivalled that of his obsession with Harry, the question that has remained unanswered is

'Did Dumbledore let Snape die? or Did Snape choose to die?'

In both cases the book will not change, but it would IMO show the respect Snape commanded from the one man who literally ran his life for the past 18 years and to whom Snape remained completely faithful and totally obedient and fully willing to do anything for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
I think that Snape would have willingly accepted that he would die over the wand. He seemed willing to die in HBP over the vow, which was why Dumbledore had to plead with Snape at the end of HBP.
I agree, and it is because it would show that Dumbledore knew Snape would only choose right that I want Dumbledore to tell Snape. It will also tell me that Dumbledore did respect Snape, who IMO did enough for Dumbledore to command it from him.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:

Last edited by The_Green_Woods; February 2nd, 2008 at 5:31 am.
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 5:35 am
ComicBookWorm's Avatar
ComicBookWorm  Female.gif ComicBookWorm is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5289 days
Location: Embedded in my sofa
Posts: 16,292
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I agree, and it is because it would show that Dumbledore knew Snape would only choose right that I want Dumbledore to tell Snape. It will also tell me that Dumbledore did respect Snape, who IMO did enough for Dumbledore to command it from him.
It has nothing to do with whether he respected him or not. It would have been dangerous for Snape to know. It's the same reason Dumbledore didn't tell Snape about horcruxes.


__________________

Sometimes dreams do come true
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 6:08 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4263 days
Posts: 6,025
Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
It has nothing to do with whether he respected him or not. It would have been dangerous for Snape to know. It's the same reason Dumbledore didn't tell Snape about horcruxes.
In fact I believe he should have known about the horcruxes too, because he would have only helped and I also believe that he would have successfully defended himself and made sure that any information he had would be protected somehow from Voldemort. I have that kind of confidence in Snape. But that's only my opinion.

Dumbledore not telling him about the horcruxes would mean that Harry would have to go it alone, without help from an brilliant wizard who was very knowledgeable about the dark arts.

Dumbledore not telling Snape that he was going to get killed by Voldemort in the space of a year IMO is something else entirely. This is where I think I differ from all of you, because I think Snape should have known about this from Dumbledore.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Stone > Legilimency Studies

Bookmarks

Tags
albus dumbledore, character analysis, dumbledore, half blood prince, lightning struck tower, severus snape, snape


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:13 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.