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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #21  
Old December 9th, 2007, 3:54 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?


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  #22  
Old December 9th, 2007, 4:03 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?
Yes, I think it was part of it. It gave him the chance of completing the redemption process that he'd started by coming back to Dumbledore in the first place.

It also kept him away from the Dark Arts, as you say. The whole "not being trusted with the DADA" job thing was a bit of a put-on - Dumbledore didn't give him the position because of the curse, not the trust issue - but the reason that Snape gave Bella (being tempted to go back to his old ways) still had some truth in it, I think. By giving Snape some distance and time away from his DE life, Dumbledore gave Snape the opportunity to choose his own path, and he did, I think.


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  #23  
Old December 9th, 2007, 5:31 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I think Dumbledore was also thinking in the shorter term, when he talked Snape into agreeing to help protect Harry. It gave Snape a reason to live, at a time that he seemed not to see one.

Giving him a teaching job at Hogwarts may have had the aim of giving Snape some distance from the Death Eaters. The canon we have is that Voldemort sent Snape to get that job, but this had to be after the first conversation between Snape and Dumbledore. If it was before, there would have been no reason for Snape and Dumbeldroe to have the first conversation on some windy hilltop - Snape could have just popped into the Headmaster's office.


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  #24  
Old December 9th, 2007, 7:02 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?
Yes mentally perhaps, but I think Dumbldore always knew Voldemort would come back, (suggesting that he suspected Voldemort had created horcruxes) and he would come after Harry and by asking Snape to protect Harry would also mean that Snape would be going back to Voldemort and being a death eater with everything that entailed.

I felt that the moment Voldemort decided to attack the Potters, or rather Lily, that was the moment Snape resigned as a death eater.

He understood at that time that even though Voldmeort had agreed to spare Lily, Lily herself would not step aside and allow Harry to be killed. That would mean the death of both Lily and Harry. While at that time he was not bothered about Harry, he knew Lily was in danger of losing her life.

That was why he ran to Dumbledore. By the time he ran to Dumbledore, he had already stopped being a death eater in the true sense of the word and after Lily dies, Snape was a death eater only for everybody else. Not for himself.

So when Dumbledore asks Snape to protect Harry, he is actually giving information to Snape that Voldemort would surely return. And Snape agrees to do his part to bring down the man who killed Lily by agreeing to protect Harry Potter, because Voldemort would target Harry, the moment he returned to fulfil the Prophecy.


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  #25  
Old December 11th, 2007, 12:43 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

1. What do you believe Snape and Dumbledore's relationship was based on?

Imo, Dumbledore used Snape's guilt over what he had done to Lily to garner himself a prime spy in the fold of Voldemort (both before and after Voldemort was dusted by Harry). Snape, JKR tells us, was vulnerable and insecure and like Wormtail would look for a safe Harbor in a 'big friend'. For Snape, I believe he would have preferred it to have been Voldemort, but once Lily had been threatened that changed. I do not know why that was because he had been working against her interests for some time. However, for whatever reason, it affected him enough to turn to Dumbledore and allow himself to be used in exchange for his guilt. At first his guilt was for giving the prophecy which had implicated Lily and later for her death.


2. How do you think Dumbledore felt about Snape through the course of the series? Did his views on Snape change?

Dumbledore was wary of Snape at first, logically. But as time went on, he saw that he could trust Snape because Snape's feelings for Lily went much deeper than Dumbledore imagined. In an odd way, Dumbledore also knew that Snape's loathing for James would assist to keep Snape on his side as well. That loathing was built mostly on jealousy, imo, at that point and that too was tied to Lily.

3. How do you think Snape felt about spying for Dumbledore? Did he resent his job?

I do not know.

4. Did Dumbledore and Snape fully trust one another?

Dumbledore fully trusted no one. Snape didn't seem to fully trust Dumbledore either because he knew he was keeping things from him and imo, Snape felt those things were material. Dumbledore trusted Snape enough to be quite certain that Snape would allow himself to be used for as long as necessary and I believe he hoped that Snape's motivation would change over the years to match that of the others he was using for his plans (Order members, etc.) But that never occurred.

5. Do you think Severus was jealous (in a sibling-type way) of Dumbledore's fondness for Harry?

Snape did not seem himself as a brother to anyone. Nor do I believe he saw Dumbledore as a father figure. For Snape, it was all work and his jealousy stemmed from wanting to be powerful within Dumbledore's fold (the #2 man). However, Dumbledore refused to pass pertinent information to him about things (as Voldemort did - but Snape no longer desired that from Voldemort). Thus, Snape realized that neither he nor anyone else would ever be #2 man in Dumbledore's eyes because it was a one-man show. However, prior to making that realization, I think Snape was highly jealous of all of the Order members and of Harry. Snape's unending joy at finding that taunting Sirius for being unable to help as he would like and continued distain shown in his attitude toward Tonks, Molly and Arthur while he was an Order member, serves as the basis for my conclusion in that regard.

6. Do you believe Dumbledore consciously saw the parallels between his own story and Snape's?

Answered this already above.

7. Dumbledore and Snape worked together for years before Harry showed up. How do you think their relationship changed once Harry came to Hogwarts? Did it change once Voldemort returned in GoF?

I believe Dumbledore thought everything was going peachy until POA. At that point Snape made his feelings about Harry clear. He had been unable to forgive James for winning Lily's heart and devotion and as a result, loathed him and thus his son. Snape's childhood memories of James as his enemy served as something for Snape to channel his loathing in, rather than admit that much of that had been fueled by jealousy as well.

I think Dumbledore would have been proud of Snape in the end. Snape knew the only way to gain Harry's trust before giving him the memories was to come clean. Snape did. He admitted that everyone at Hogwarts thought his father was 'wonderful' except for him - something he'd never admitted in life. And further showed a memory in which he explained exactly why he didn't think James was wonderful - jealousy - even before James and Lilly got together. He regarded Harry's father through eyes tainted with red and that is why he could never bring himself to let their enemity go. Basically he undid some of the damage of SWM by showing Harry that James was not as bad as he'd been saying all those years. If he'd been victimized by Harry's father, James would not have been seen as wonderful by everyone. Snape also showed himself to be friendly with and in participation with his school mates who were up to dark arts pranking. Harry understood then why his father and Snape hadn't gotten along because he'd had a similar relationship with Draco.

Dumbledore would have seen this as a huge step forward for Snape, imo. He'd placed the success of the plan ahead of his own desire in this instance. It was still quite possibly all for Lily, but even then, through Lily, Snape was doing the right thing.


8. How would you characterize their relationship when Severus was a student? Do you think that Albus may have been aware of Severus’ interest in the Death Eaters while he was at Hogwarts?


Sure Dumbledore knew. I have no idea if he tried to convince him not to become a death eater though. Did Dumbledore ever try to help Draco? That whole deal is very grey and confusing.

9. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?


None of the above. I am currently under the belief that Harry is totally bowled over by the idea of bravery. To him, his father was the bravest man in the world, even if he never really knew him. Harry sees himself as being just like his father and thus in a way, he sees himself as the bravest man in the world as well. So his first son got the name James. His mum is equally brave to Harry, so his daughter got her name. Next up, Albus followed by Snape. I suppose he'll have more sons and daughters and they will just continue to be named after those who died and should be honored. Little James may have Sirius for a middle name, we don't know, but if not, then I am sure he'd come along as the next son with Moody or someone attached. Harry already has his godson Remus, so that is taken care of, but there were many other brave people Harry knew, so he is probably planning to have a very big family...


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  #26  
Old December 16th, 2007, 11:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

1. What do you believe Snape and Dumbledore's relationship was based on?
I think it was based on Dumbledore's pechant for giving people second chances. Snape came to Dumbledore telling him he made a mistake and wanted to try and make it right. Though Dumbledore didn't at first trust Snape's motives, he did give him a second chance. Dumbledore's own past made him more receptive to giving others a fresh start, so it makes sense that he would do so with Snape.

2. How do you think Dumbledore felt about Snape through the course of the series? Did his views on Snape change?
At first I'm sure Dumbledore might have been a bit wary of Snape. But then as the relationship progressed, I think Dumbledore felt that Snape was a highly valuable and loyal person. So Dumbledore's views on Snape must have gotten better as Snape continued to do as Dumbledore wished.

3. How do you think Snape felt about spying for Dumbledore? Did he resent his job?
I think he felt it was the right thing to do, since he had once been a part of that group. Snape might have been a bit resentful, but since he was once a death eater I'm sure he felt empowered to be able to do something that would undermine them. Of course it was a dangerous job which could put him in a hard position if he was caught, which might have given Snape pause. But in the end, he still maintained his role as spy despite the danger.

4. Did Dumbledore and Snape fully trust one another?
I do think they trusted one another pretty fully, though I'm sure there were likely times where each questioned the decisions/actions/motives of the other. I see their relationship as a strategic alliance of sorts, and not really as a personal relationship, so I think there were bound to be times when each was thinking about preserving his own interests.

5. Do you think Severus was jealous (in a sibling-type way) of Dumbledore's fondness for Harry?
That's a thought I'd never considered. Honestly, I don't think so. Snape has shown that he can be jealous at times, but I don't think he saw Harry as a threat as far as Dumbledore's affections went. I think he looked on Dumbledore's fondness for Harry with disdain, since he himself hated the boy, but I didn't get the sense that he was jealous of Dumbledore's attention toward Harry or that he ever saw Harry as a competitor for Dumbledore's affection.

6. Do you believe Dumbledore consciously saw the parallels between his own story and Snape's?
Probably. I think that's why he was willing to give Snape the benefit of the doubt. In Snape he likely saw a man who had unwittingly caused the death of someone he loved (Lily), just like he himself was involved with the death of his sister. Also, he likely saw the parallel between Snape's association with Voldemort and his own association with Grindelwald.

7. Dumbledore and Snape worked together for years before Harry showed up. How do you think their relationship changed once Harry came to Hogwarts? Did it change once Voldemort returned in GoF?
I think perhaps Snape and Dumbledore may have butted heads a bit more when Harry showed up. Snape was always trying to punish Harry, many times unfairly, causing Dumbledore to intervene on Harry's behalf. That likely caused some tension, but I don't think the core of their relationship changed very much - the trust they'd forged was still in place. Once Voldemort returned, I'd also say their relationship probably didn't change either.

8. How would you characterize their relationship when Severus was a student? Do you think that Albus may have been aware of Severus’ interest in the Death Eaters while he was at Hogwarts?
As a student I have a feeling the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore was very different. I imagine Snape didn't have a very high opinion of Dumbledore, especially since he forbade Snape from saying anything to reveal the nature of Lupin's condition. I'm sure Snape resented Dumbledore for that. And I have a feeling Dumbledore may have been keeping an eye on Snape, as I'm sure he knew of Snape's interest in the Dark Arts and the Death Eaters.

9. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?
Though I don't particularly like Harry's choice of names, I think he felt that Albus and Severus had very influential roles in shaping both his life and the outcome of the war against Voldemort.


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  #27  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 4:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

1. What do you believe Snape and Dumbledore's relationship was based on?
I think they originally came together because they both needed something from the other. Snape needed Dumbledore to protect Lily. Dumbledore needed a spy. Once Lily was dead, Snape needed a way to atone for his role in her death. Dumbledore needed help keeping Harry alive.

2. How do you think Dumbledore felt about Snape through the course of the series? Did his views on Snape change?

I think Dumbledore’s opinion of Snape changed quite a bit as the years went on. Snape was very loyal and brave, two things that Dumbledore valued. I think he was more lenient with Snape than he should have been, in my opinion, because he valued him so much.

3. How do you think Snape felt about spying for Dumbledore? Did he resent his job?

I don’t think he resented his spying job. I always felt that the way he talked to Bellatrix in Spinners End showed how proud he was to have achieved such a high place in Voldemort’s camp. He also had an important role in the Order. I think the spying job allowed him to use some of his best talents and skills.

4. Did Dumbledore and Snape fully trust one another?
I think Dumbledore’s trust in Snape was very good, but limited. He would not tell him about the horcruxes for instance. Dumbledore is very aware that too much power is very tempting. He also can’t take a chance that Voldemort will learn something that would really ruin his plans. I think that Snape trusted Dumbledore for the most part. He was angry that Dumbledore wasn’t telling him everything. He probably wondered how many things Dumbledore was really hiding from him.

5. Do you think Severus was jealous (in a sibling-type way) of Dumbledore's fondness for Harry?
Absolutely. Snape considered himself to be Dumbledore’s main confidant when it came to Voldemort, in my opinion. He probably knew that Dumbledore was spending a lot of time with Harry. I think he was jealous of it. And it probably has a parallel to the feelings Snape felt when he found out that Lily liked James better than she liked him.

6. Do you believe Dumbledore consciously saw the parallels between his own story and Snape's?
Yes. That is why Dumbledore knew he could ask so much of Snape. He knew what the power of love could do.

7. Dumbledore and Snape worked together for years before Harry showed up. How do you think their relationship changed once Harry came to Hogwarts?
I think before Harry showed up, Dumbledore and Snape had a normal Head master-teacher relationship. There would not be a whole lot to do.
Did it change once Voldemort returned in GoF?
I think that once Voldemort returned, Snape’s role became much more dangerous. This was the real test, too. Dumbledore would need to work very closely with Snape to make sure Voldemort was convinced that Snape was still his spy. Dumbledore would need to depend a lot more on Snape then he had before.

8. How would you characterize their relationship when Severus was a student? Do you think that Albus may have been aware of Severus’ interest in the Death Eaters while he was at Hogwarts?
I think that Dumbledore wouldn’t really have paid much attention to Snape until the werewolf incident. He may have kept a close eye on students that were interested in joining the Dark Side, though.

9. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?
I think Harry valued the fact that both of these men worked really hard to help him, protect him, and devote so much of their life to him. He also valued Snape’s loyalty to Dumbledore and his love for his mother.


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  #28  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:05 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?
Well Voldemort had been vaporized. Dumbledore knew he'd return and I believe he hoped to win Snape over to his bidding prior to Voldemort's return. That way he could have a spy. Dumbledore telling Snape to go to Voldemort in GoF is proof of this. I think Dumbledore was compassionate and wished for everyone to have a better life. However, that was not his primary concern for Snape or anyone else. He wanted to bring Voldemort down and whatever it took to do that, Dumbledore did it, independent of whether or not it may make someone on the good side have a worse life. Kingsley, Lupin, Sirius, Snape and Harry all had a worse life at times due to Dumbledore and his plan. Only Kingsley and Harry lived to tell about it.


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Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:20 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?
I think DD was giving him a chance to do something to ease the pain of being the one who had led Voldemort to Lily´s death,Besides I think he also saw in him a potential spy that would prove to be very useful in the future,he knew of his abilities,he had been at hogwarts,probably he had been his teacher...so he knew having him on his side would be a great thing in their favor...

That DD actually cared about bringing Snape to the good side for his own benefit...I think a hint,very slight of it,might be there,as long as he could bring death eaters from the wrong side it was good.Set aside of who it was,in this case ,it was no only good for the fellow but for the early sketches of a plan to bring down the dark lord.

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However, that was not his primary concern for Snape or anyone else. He wanted to bring Voldemort down and whatever it took to do that
I agree,and having snape on his side ,was good.very good.


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  #30  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:45 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?
I think that was partly the reason. Snape was not in good shape when Lily died. I think Dumbledore recognized the danger of Severus doing harm to himself and so suggested a way for him to channel his grief into something positive, and not self-destructive.

And, of course, having someone out there who will keep an eye on Harry is an added bonus.


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  #31  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:50 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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a way for him to channel his grief into something positive, and not self-destructive.
i like this one ,besides what i have said above..


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Old December 23rd, 2007, 10:08 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?
That's actually a very interesting view point, Dumbledore I think was one of those wonderful teachers who truely cared about how his pupils turned out and liked to know how they were doing after they left. Someone so talented magically as Snape no doubt was would definitely be someone to keep an eye of ~ also the fact that Dumbledore knew a lot more about what was going on under the surface with just about everyone he would probably have been very very aware about Snape's feelings for Lily. We've seen that Snape's feeling ran very deep so knowing that, and knowing Dumbledore's mode of operation it is a very plausible scenario.

I'm not sure if it's quite though the "ticket to the better life" but it would have given Snape something to live for other than Dark Magic even if he couldn't totally get away from the death eaters.


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Old December 23rd, 2007, 10:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Did anyone feel that one of the reasons that Dumbledore asked Snape to help him protect Harry was because he wanted to give Snape an opportunity to get away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters and have a better life?
I did, and I think I've mentioned it before. I've always seen their relationship (even before DH) as a very close one, seeing as they shared something very specific and exclusive to everyone else (Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape) - this sort of thing bonds people.

I think Dumbledore could have protected Harry very well without Snape's help, and he didn't need a spy anymore, for the time being at least, since Voldemort was gone. So I believe his main idea was to take Snape away the prospect of utter misery and give him something to occupy him.


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Old December 26th, 2007, 4:15 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I think Dumbledore could have protected Harry very well without Snape's help, and he didn't need a spy anymore, for the time being at least, since Voldemort was gone. So I believe his main idea was to take Snape away the prospect of utter misery and give him something to occupy him.
Not only to occupy him, but to do it for Lily. It was the one way to reach Snape in his despair at Lily's death. Help and protect Lily's son. The fact that he was also James' son, was a thorn in Snape's side, but a welcome one since it punished him while he protected Harry. He could direct his hate toward Harry, while still protecting him for Lily.

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Old December 26th, 2007, 4:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Dumbledore needed someone who could be accepted in Voldemort's camp and, therefore, feed V information (in DH Dumbledore tells Snape to tell Voldemort when Harry is leaving 12G), Dumbledore himself could hardly do this. Snape was also able to protect Harry when Dumbledore wasn't around--as in the Quidditch match in Book 1 when Quirrell was trying to hex Harry off of his broom and Snape was casting a spell to counter that.


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  #36  
Old December 26th, 2007, 5:06 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Dumbledore needed someone who could be accepted in Voldemort's camp and, therefore, feed V information
Not at the time he asked for Snape's help. Voldemort was vapour then.


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Old December 28th, 2007, 4:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I think Snape saw Dumbledore as his advisor and mentor, but also as sort of a "confessor" with whom he could confide his problems and his secrets.

I think there at the end, they had a father-son relationship, especially when Snape realized Dumbledore was going to die from the horcrux injury.

I agree that though Dumbledore wanted to protect Harry above everything, he also did not want Severus to give up on life after Lily died. So he gave him a purpose and a practical job, and the trust to go on living.


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  #38  
Old January 2nd, 2008, 3:03 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
think Snape saw Dumbledore as his advisor and mentor, but also as sort of a "confessor" with whom he could confide his problems and his secrets.

I think there at the end, they had a father-son relationship, especially when Snape realized Dumbledore was going to die from the horcrux injury.
I would have thought that before Hallows,but seiing how at any expense DD had planned for Snape to become a killer ,i dont think so anymore...

I think he saw Snape more as the means to an end,as a valuable knight in a big chessboard,

as an isntrument of his biding,more than as a son...I think he did came to appreciate him,I dont doubt he did,still I think of it more as a captain- soldier realtions ship ,than that of a teacher or a father -son.


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  #39  
Old January 3rd, 2008, 2:32 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I believe their relationship was that of a father/son or mentoring sort. When Snape first came to DD, DD gave him firm guidance and showed him the compasion he needed to mend his broken soul. I don't think Snape knew how to show regret or even had a strong male figure in his life considering his unstable upbringing, housemates and companions.
As for having Snape killing DD. I liken this to the euthanasia issue. DD knew that the end wasn't far off and chose to have control over his death. Just as a father relies on his family to carry out his last wishes, DD entrusted Snape to carry out his. No one else would have done it. The other professors would have protested. Although Snape protested somewhat, he respected DD and knew DD was right in how things must work to ensure Harry had the best chance to kill Voldermort.


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  #40  
Old January 4th, 2008, 9:03 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I didn't really get the father/son vibe from the Dumbledore - Snape relationship. Dumbledore didn't seem to allow people to get that close to him with the exception of Harry and perhaps some of his off page friends - oh, and perhaps Minerva. But with Snape I think Dumbledore had a more co-worker attitude, even in their private dealings. I think Dumbledore felt that Snape wanted to be seen as his #1 man in the Order - but Dumbledore ran a dictatorship, so that was impossible. Snape didn't seem happy being kept out of the loop on so many levels. He wanted to know what Dumbledore and Harry had met about and I suspect he felt that way when Dumbledore met with other Order members as well. I think Snape eventually gave up on the power quest because it was obvious that Dumbledore wasn't going to ever have a right hand man. Nonetheless, Snape was manipulated by Dumbledore, imo, and I think Snape at times felt that was the case and was none too happy about it. Dumbledore often called for 'promises' made by others - and in Snape's case, the promises had been wreched from him via a bit of trickery - he was not likely the only one. So I think there was likely a bit of resentment on Snape's part in their relationship.


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