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  #41  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:13 am
Sibe Sibe is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladam24 View Post
Harry didn't kill Draco, just stole his wand. I think if you disarm or steal the wand, it's yours.
You're getting confused, Harry's speech wasn't telling Voldemort that he had the wand, he was only telling Voldemort that Voldemort didn't have the power of the Elder Wand. Irony that Voldemort and Harry were fighting with Draco's wands, the wand Harry stole from Draco didn't have any Elder Wand powers at all. For Harry to have the power of the Elder Wand is to actually have the original Elder Wand.

However I get confused past that point. Was the Elder Wand still Malfoy's since he wasn't using it when Harry disarmed him, or was it now Harry's because he was the first person to defeat Malfoy in a duel since he disarmed DD? So did the spell reflect back to Voldemort because he was using Harry's own wand, or because he was using a wand that wasn't his in general?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hershlag View Post
exactly!
it doesnt matter if they were killed in the process..it changes owner ship when the wand is taken from the owner weather its killing or defeat..there can be defeat without death....
Yah, we clearly see that when DD imprisons Grindelwald (after defeating him in a duel) without killing him.


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  #42  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:15 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Grindelwald stunned Gregorovitch when the latter ran into his workshop. Grindelwald was sitting on the window sill and hit Gregorovitch with a stunner, before jumping out the window.


  #43  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:17 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Harry says something to Voldemort to the effect of "let's see if the wand knows I disarmed him". He was talking about the fact that even though the wand had recognized Draco, it was not in Draco's possession at the time Harry disarmed him, Harry defeated Draco. His question to Voldemort was whether or not the Elder Wand would recognize the fact that Harry had defeated Draco even though it (the Elder Wand) had not been present.


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  #44  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:18 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

"The wand chooses the wizard."

It has nothing to do with battle. Snape killed Dumbledore, but Draco was still the true owner of the Elder Wand simply for disarming Dumbledore. The wand does truly choose the wizard. If you can take it, it's yours.


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  #45  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:20 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by i6uuaq View Post
Disclaimer: Looked at all the threads, and i think this is different from the generic thread on wand-lore, so excuse me if some mod thinks otherwise.

Grindelwald stole the wand from Gregorovitch, having never defeated him in battle. Gregorovitch was still the recognised owner of the wand.

Voldemort killed Gregorovitch. Voldemort is the true master of the elder wand.

Unless you argue that the Elder wand eventually decided Grindelwald was it's master after being used by Grindelwald for so many years.... there was also the fact that Grindelwald's wand was known to be excessively powerful, meaning that the Elder wand had chosen to work for him.
I think it counts because Grindelwald obtained the wand through outwitting or outplaying Gregorovitch, I think it has nothing to do with killing him. The thing was, though, that even if it was Dumbledoreís still, it took no effort for Voldemort to get it. It took nothing for him to steal from a dead man. At least thatís what I thought.


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  #46  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:21 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

The previous master doesn't need to die, the wand needs to at least be forcibly taken from them.


  #47  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:27 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

I think the Elder wand recognized that Harry was using Draco's wand, which has recognized Harry as its new master. Since the DD was defeated by the same wand, Elder Wand would recognize whoever the owner of Draco's wand as its master.


  #48  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:29 am
Sibe Sibe is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinLooWho View Post
Harry says something to Voldemort to the effect of "let's see if the wand knows I disarmed him". He was talking about the fact that even though the wand had recognized Draco, it was not in Draco's possession at the time Harry disarmed him, Harry defeated Draco. His question to Voldemort was whether or not the Elder Wand would recognize the fact that Harry had defeated Draco even though it (the Elder Wand) had not been present.
Yah, it's quite hard to know. Question that comes up, while Voldemort tried to steal it from DD and Snape, it wasn't their, and Draco never had the wand, so while Draco disarmed the actual Elder Wand from DD, Harry never disarmed the actual Elder Wand from Draco, he only defeated Draco with a normal one. With Gregorovitch, he had the wand, even though not in his hand.


  #49  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:31 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Did Gregorivitch steal or kill for it? To me, Gregorivitch was not presented in a sinister manner, and I read it as if he purchased it.


  #50  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:35 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

why did the elder wand voldemort was using the first time "kill" harry, but the 2nd time, it didnt, it backfired?


  #51  
Old July 24th, 2007, 5:09 am
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Dangerous way to leave the Elder Wand

Mods - Did not see this as part of the Elder wand thread, but maybe my eyes are bleary from reading....

So here's the world's most powerful wand and it has this bloody past, with people fighting over it and seeking to capture it over the ages. A room full of people watch and hear LV and Harry battle, and know that Harry ends up with it. But no one ever comes looking for it, to get it from Harry? Yes, few may guess that he left it with DD's remains. But there's no one evil left? to come in later years and try to crucio the location out of Harry? ( I am guessing the story of the final battle got around...)

Did this bother anyone else?


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  #52  
Old July 24th, 2007, 5:55 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super_Man View Post
why did the elder wand voldemort was using the first time "kill" harry, but the 2nd time, it didnt, it backfired?
i think it might have something to do with the fact that harry wasnt defending himself the first time. maybe because the second time he was defending himself with malfoys wand, the elder wand realized that he was its new master? im not sure. the whole wand ownership confused me a little too...


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  #53  
Old July 24th, 2007, 6:17 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

I got the feeling that the Elder Wand wasn't a wand at all. It was more the magical essence of a wand. Therefor, wands don't have to change hands. When a person defeats the Elder Wand, it's magical essence joins their wand. So, when Draco disamred Dumbledore, his wand recieved the essence. From that point on, you don't see Draco in any wand fights. When Harry took Draco's wand by force, he became the master of the essence. As such, a spell made by the essence(Disarming spell) is the only magic(besides Lily's unique sacrifice) to block or rebound an unforgivable.

If it was the actual wand, Harry wouldn't have been the master, as he never defeated it. Draco wasn't using the Elder Wand when Harry took his wand by force.


  #54  
Old July 24th, 2007, 6:17 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

I had assumed that the wand sensed that Harry was not fighting back the first time, and was willingly sucumbing to the avada kedavra. Therefore, the wand did not feel that it needed to protect.


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  #55  
Old July 24th, 2007, 6:19 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenDay View Post
I don't know, though...when GW took it from Gregorovitch it wasn't a deathly duel...he pretty much just stole it! What if someone just stole Harry's wand (thus "conquering" it)...I suppose the EW would transfer its allegiance as well? Someone could just sneak up on Harry, shout Expelliarmous! and Accio Wand! and then disapparate.

I hope Harry never becomes an Auror! It would be all too easy to be disarmed, and the chances of dying a natural death would decrease considerably.

So, if someone, anytime in the future, disarms Harry (or steals his wand?), they'd have control of the EW. Seems pretty easy to me! Although one could argue that no one but the trio really knows that Harry put the EW back in DD's grave, that wouldn't be too hard to guess. And a lot of people know about the Elder Wand's existence now, since Harry announced it to all of Hogwarts during the final duel.
I *so* agree. Seems to me that the details of Harry and LV's final encounter, witnessed by so many, would be the stuff of legends.

Here's this wand that's been fought over for ages, with an awful bloody history. And no one is going to go after Harry to try to get it!? Seems to me that there'd be baddies just waiting for the chance to Crucio the wand's location out of Harry...

Seems like a rather dubious way to leave it...


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  #56  
Old July 24th, 2007, 7:43 am
rhianne  Female.gif rhianne is offline
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Why did Dumbledore intend Snape to have the Elder Wand?

I am a bit confused as to why Dumbledore intended Snape to have the Elder wand. It's almost like he sacrificed Snape because:

1. Dumbledore tells Harry in the Chapter "Kings Cross" that he was sure Voldemort would desire the wand; and
2. Dumbledore knew that the wand would pass to the person who defeated him ie Snape and he arranged Snape to "kill" him. This would lead Voldemort directly to Snape for the Elder Wand.

Even despite Draco's disarming of Dumbledore being unintended, Dumbledore must have known that Voldemort would persue and kill Snape for that wand. After all, Voldemort believed Snape murdered Dumbledore as Dumbledore intended.

Any ideas anyone?


  #57  
Old July 24th, 2007, 8:18 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

I'm still not convinced by this Elder Wand thing. The "Expelliarmus" spell has been used countless times in the series, but wands haven't switched loyalties. Harry used it on Voldemort before DH and it didn't make Voldemort's wand useless.

Is this a plot hole?


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  #58  
Old July 24th, 2007, 8:26 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atma View Post
It appears to me, the Elder Wand "knew" that it's master (Draco) had been defeated. And it was waiting for it's rightful new master to take possession of it. Voldemort just holding the Elder Wand, without having the alliegance of the wand, would cause it to perform like any other wand. In Voldemort's hand, the Elder Wand was just a simple "stick". (I love Dumbledore's reference to Lucius' wand in Kings Cross.)
I agree - this was, as far as I am concerned, one of the cleverest parts of the book. We had all the clues about wandlore. We knew from HBP that Draco had disarmed Dumbledore and in this book Harry disarmed Draco but it was a complete surprise to me when Harry faced up to Voldemort.


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  #59  
Old July 24th, 2007, 8:39 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Which "last master" is he referring to? Dumbledore? Draco? Snape?
It was referring to Draco.

Dumbledore had the wand, then Draco disarmed him and thus became the master. Then Harry disarmed Draco at Malfoy Manor and he became the master. Snape never was the master of the wand. Voldemort got it wrong when he thought that you had to kill the previous owner of the wand to become its master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Oh and when Harry said he was going to put the Elder Wand back "where it came from" where is that, exactly?
I think he is going to put the wand back in Ignotus's grave, where no one will be able to find it and hence breaking its charm when Harry dies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
I'm still not convinced by this Elder Wand thing. The "Expelliarmus" spell has been used countless times in the series, but wands haven't switched loyalties. Harry used it on Voldemort before DH and it didn't make Voldemort's wand useless.

Is this a plot hole?
No it is not. The Elder wand like other wands could switch masters if its new master had won it from its previous owner. When Harry had disarmed Draco and had become the rightful owner of the wand, the wand could no longer function against him and hence the "Expelliarmus" spell forced Voldemort's AK to work against him, thereby killing him.


  #60  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:08 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalhead View Post
I got the feeling that the Elder Wand wasn't a wand at all. It was more the magical essence of a wand. Therefor, wands don't have to change hands. When a person defeats the Elder Wand, it's magical essence joins their wand. So, when Draco disamred Dumbledore, his wand recieved the essence. From that point on, you don't see Draco in any wand fights. When Harry took Draco's wand by force, he became the master of the essence. As such, a spell made by the essence(Disarming spell) is the only magic(besides Lily's unique sacrifice) to block or rebound an unforgivable.
I think this explanation is the best one I've heard so far! I had to read that part of the book twice because I couldn't understand how that whole thing happened. This is the only logical conclusion that makes any sense to me.


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