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The Elder Wand



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:53 am
HPotter24  Male.gif HPotter24 is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Perhaps I missed something in my reading, but something confused me when reading through the final duel scene. I do not fully understand why the Avada Kedavra curse backfired on Voldemort? Was it because Voldemort attempted to kill Harry with the Elder wand? Did the wand refuse to murder what Harry called "its true master"? Why was the expelliarmus spell out of Draco's hawthorn wand more powerful? Did the hawthorn wand become the elder wand when Harry took it from Draco? Someone wanna shed some light on this?


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  #22  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:01 am
stunnedtina  Female.gif stunnedtina is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMagic View Post
In my mind I understand and accept how the wand came to recognize Draco as its master and not Snape, but I don't know if I can express the idea very well.

It all stems though from Draco disarming Dumbledore against his will in HBP. Once Draco showed some superiority and "defeated" Dumbledore by taking his wand, the wand chose Draco as its new master. It didn't matter that Draco fled shortly after and never had the wand in his posession.

The wands "last master" that Harry disarmed /defeated was Draco. Since Harry took Draco's wand against Draco's will the wand went on to chose Harry as its new rightful master. Snape was never the master of the wand because he didn't defeat Dumbledore against his will...Dumbledore asked him to kill him.
Yes that's how I took it as well. I understode it all the first time around. I re-read to make sure of my understanding but yes that's what I got from it as well.


  #23  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:35 am
PaulSSC  Male.gif PaulSSC is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

It was not that Snape's defeat of Dumbledore or Voldemort's defeat of Snape didn't count; DD had already been defeated by Draco, and so mastery of the wand was no longer his to lose, and Snape never had it.

I too find it improbable that Harry will never be "defeated." Perhaps Draco was the character to get the reprieve, and Harry was supposed to have killed him originally, to transfer ownership of the wand? Only that would've been a little gruesome.

Note that Harry DID need Draco in the end; although his help was unintentional, everything would have ended in disaster without it. (Not to mention Draco aided in Goyle's accidental destruction of the diadem.)

I do not see how Grindelwald's theft would have transferred ownership of the wand, unless Gregorovich was armed, and GW's stunning spell hit. Perhaps GW needed to find the true master and defeat him before he could master the wand; I find it difficult to believe that Gregor would have had mastery anyway, as he is a wand maker, not a duelist.



Last edited by PaulSSC; July 24th, 2007 at 1:35 am. Reason: forgot a letter :P
  #24  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:03 am
Keazlegirl  Undisclosed.gif Keazlegirl is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I think the clue is in the relationship to Harry's and Voldemort's first wands. Remember, in the escape from Privet Drive, Harry's wand reacted on it's own? It was explained that the two wands had formed a bond in GOF, and that some of Voldemort's wand in some way entered Harry's Wand. (Or something like that. It was explained in either King's Cross or in the Wandmaker, I forget which one.) Harry's wand in some way responded to Vodlemort by destroying the wand he was using (Lucius's wand) because some of Voldemort's wand's power now was in Harry's power. It was not well explained, but even the person explaining it said it was a unique situation.

So I would assume that the Eldar Wand must have recognized the wand that had disarmed it and honored it's master. In other words, the two wands, the Elder and Draco's, became in some way related just like Harry's and Voldemort's original wands were. So when used against each other, they could not, just like in GOF. They responded to the true master of both, and literally repeled Voldemort's curse.


  #25  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:44 am
Emma88  Female.gif Emma88 is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by BelleSnowyOwl View Post
Many questions still remain, though – like how the “undefeatable wand” has been defeated so many times.
I was wondering about this too. I mean, the wand has been around for how many years, and no one in that time has died a natural death undefeated? Maybe the wand itself has some form of magic that attracts trouble and makes it more likely for someone who holds it to be attacked?

And I'm still confused about Harry's putting the Elder Wand back where it came from. The idea of Harry reopening Dumbledore's tomb is slightly disturbing, even if it is for the right reasons.


  #26  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:46 am
i6uuaq  Undisclosed.gif i6uuaq is offline
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Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Disclaimer: Looked at all the threads, and i think this is different from the generic thread on wand-lore, so excuse me if some mod thinks otherwise.

Grindelwald stole the wand from Gregorovitch, having never defeated him in battle. Gregorovitch was still the recognised owner of the wand.

Voldemort killed Gregorovitch. Voldemort is the true master of the elder wand.

Unless you argue that the Elder wand eventually decided Grindelwald was it's master after being used by Grindelwald for so many years.... there was also the fact that Grindelwald's wand was known to be excessively powerful, meaning that the Elder wand had chosen to work for him.


  #27  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:46 am
Albrecht  Male.gif Albrecht is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Yes I also thought the fact that since Harry disarmed Malfoy and took his hawthorne wand he somehow also became the master of the Elder wand was a bit strange...I suppose it's because Malfoy was the previous master, and just the fact that he was disarmed showed the dominance of the other person and made them the rightly owner of the Elder Wand.


  #28  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:48 am
Keazlegirl  Undisclosed.gif Keazlegirl is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

[quote=Emma88;4632868]I was wondering about this too. I mean, the wand has been around for how many years, and no one in that time has died a natural death undefeated? Maybe the wand itself has some form of magic that attracts trouble and makes it more likely for someone who holds it to be attacked?

I think it is not the wand that attracts trouble, but the kind of person who would want the wand who would attract trouble.


  #29  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:04 am
Tlg  Undisclosed.gif Tlg is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Dumbledore explanantion makes it fit with the "unbeatable wand" just being made by some extremely clever wizard that was aroggant and it got him killed and started the whole hype about it being unbeatable.


  #30  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:09 am
Badgers_Rule  Male.gif Badgers_Rule is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

The way I understand it was when Draco disarmed Dumbledore, and then Dumbledore died because he was wandless, the power transfered to Draco's wand. when Harry took the Wand from Draco he became the new owner of the Elder Wand.

The part that gets tricky is when Harry say's that he will put the Elder Wand back where it belongs, with Dumbledore. Now Draco's wand has the power so when Harry gets his wand back and gives Draco his wand back I am guessing that the original Elder Wand got its power back and will be with Dumbledore.


  #31  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:10 am
Tlg  Undisclosed.gif Tlg is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I don't think Harry is putting it back in Dumbledore's tomb. I think he is gonna put it with Ignotus so it goes back where it belongs, with one of the three brothers.


  #32  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:20 am
Keazlegirl  Undisclosed.gif Keazlegirl is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I think he will put it back in Dumbledore's tomb, because that is the only place it can go "back" to, somewhere it has already been.

I don't think he will return Draco's wand, specifically to make sure the power or the Eldar wand never goes to the Malfoys.


  #33  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:41 am
Atma  Undisclosed.gif Atma is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

American hardback, page 653

"... you have performed extraordinary magic with that wand."
"No," said Voldemort. "I have performed my usual magic. I am extraordinary, but this wand ... no. It has not revealed the wonders it has promised. ..."


Page 494

"Oh yes, if you are any wizard at all, you will be able to channel your magic through almost any instrument. The best results, however, must come where there is the strongest affinity between wizard and wand. These connections are complex. An initial attraction, and then a mutual quest for experience, the wand learning from the wizard, the wizard from the wand."
...
"I took this wand from Draco Malfoy by force," said Harry. "Can I use it safely?"
"I think so. Subtle laws govern wand ownership, but the conquered wand will usually bend its will to its new master."


It appears to me, the Elder Wand "knew" that it's master (Draco) had been defeated. And it was waiting for it's rightful new master to take possession of it. Voldemort just holding the Elder Wand, without having the alliegance of the wand, would cause it to perform like any other wand. In Voldemort's hand, the Elder Wand was just a simple "stick". (I love Dumbledore's reference to Lucius' wand in Kings Cross.)


  #34  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:41 am
ted baker  Male.gif ted baker is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

this whole thing is not that complicated.

1. Draco disarms DD using his hawthorn wand
2. DD dies and is not able to recover his wand - this means that Draco's wand (the hawthornm i think) is now the wand of its master
3. Harry disarms Draco and wins Draco's wand (Ollivander explained this)
4. Harry (using Draco's wand) and Voldy's spells meet and the Elder wand recognizes the wand of its master (the hawthorn) and harry as his new master

there's a number things that are important to consider as well:

1. The Elder Wand is unique among wands
2. DD dies and does not recover the wand
3. Harry specifically uses Draco's wand, not any other, in the duel against the Elder Wand


  #35  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:44 am
PaulSSC  Male.gif PaulSSC is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

This probably should be condensed into the Elder Wand thread.


  #36  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:04 am
ladam24  Male.gif ladam24 is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Harry didn't kill Draco, just stole his wand. I think if you disarm or steal the wand, it's yours.


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  #37  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:06 am
Sibe Sibe is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Defeated, in terms of, he was able to steal it. Snape never defeated DD since DD was already defeated, by the curse, or by Malfoy who disarmed him.


  #38  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:09 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

As was stated before, if Grindelwald managed to take the wand from Gregovitch, than it became his.


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  #39  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:11 am
hershlag  Female.gif hershlag is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

exactly!
it doesnt matter if they were killed in the process..it changes owner ship when the wand is taken from the owner weather its killing or defeat..there can be defeat without death....


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  #40  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:12 am
Reo  Male.gif Reo is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Who's to say it was Gregovitch's in the first place maybe its old master was still alive and Gregovitch stumbled upon it, I don't remeber reading he defeated its previous owner.


 
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