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  #1501  
Old June 12th, 2012, 6:31 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

DH ch 36The bang was like a cannon blast and the golden flames that erupted between them, at the dead centre of the circle they had been treading, marked the point where the spells collided. Harry saw Voldemort's green jet meet his own spell, saw the Elder Wand fly high, dark against the sunrise, spinning across the enchanted ceiling like the head of Nagini, spinning through the air towards the Master it would not kill, who had come to take full possession of it at last. And Harry, with the unerring skill of the Seeker, caught the wand in his free hand as Voldemort fell backwards, arms splayed, the slit pupils of the scarlet eyes rolling upwards. Tom Riddle hit the floor with a mundane finality, his body feeble and shrunken, the white hands empty, the snake-like face vacant and unknowing. Voldemort was dead, killed by his own rebounding curse, and Harry stood with two wands in his hand, staring down at his enemy's shell.

Right, a couple of things I note from this passage:

The Elder Wand would not kill Harry, because it had recognised him as its Master. The fact that it says Harry had come to claim it 'at last' suggests to me that the wand already knew Harry was its Master and had for some time.

Harry's Expelliarmus worked - the wand immediately left Voldemort and spun to Harry - despite the spell never reaching Voldemort unless it travelled along with the rebounding AK. Harry may well have been casting a stronger spell since he was using a wand that he had full control of while Voldemort was using a wand which not only did not accept him as Master but which had no intention of allowing the AK it was used for to kill Harry.

The AK it cast was however effective since it immediately killed Voldemort.

The AK definitely rebounded as it says and as it never reached Harry it could only have rebounded from the point where the spells met. Although Expelliarmus would not normally have 'defeated' an AK, I think the Wand must have had to do something with the AK it had been obliged to cast at Harry and therefore used it to return to Voldemort and kill him instead. It's possible that the wand sensed its Master wanted Voldemort defeated and therefore used the AK to do that.

What I'm unsure about is whether the Wand was obliged to cast an AK if the wizard holding it said that spell and therefore had to decide how to avoid killing Harry with it or whether it had already decided to send the AK back to Voldemort and thus wanted to be used for that spell. I suppose it depends on just how sentient the Elder Wand was.


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  #1502  
Old June 15th, 2012, 3:00 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Jo further explained that this was a deliberate choice on her part - she wanted the transfer to occur in this moment specifically because it was a very human moment that put all the grandiose plans of Dumbledore and Voldemort in their place. A good use of irony, IMO.
I’m quite certain JKR rarely wrote anything that wasn’t deliberate. However, I see essentially no change occurring with the “very human moment” whether the wand knew at the exact instance that Harry took the wand from Draco or the wand realized later in the Great Hall that Harry was its master. In my opinion (obviously) the latter scenario works better–at least as the events are laid out in the last three chapters. However, there may be farther-reaching consequences that JKR wanted to take into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
In spite of that fascination, Ollivander was not a bad person and he didn't want to help Voldemort - if he had been willingly giving information, he would not have been tortured and Voldemort would have already found the Elder wand before the Seven Potters, IMO.
Harry’s musings indicate he wasn’t sure about Ollivander’s intentions. I don’t believe Ollivander was evil or that, if he did somewhat collude with Voldemort, it was because he was a bad person (or that he gave information before he was tortured.) But he had a distinct fascination for wands and was quite enthralled (Harry’s words, not mine) with the idea of Voldemort possessing the EW. And we see Ollivander willingly giving truthful information to Voldemort (Fallen Warrior–and remember LV is a Legilimens) but getting tortured anyway. Seems a hobby of LV’s to do so.

The reason LV didn’t go looking for the EW before Seven Potters was because he thought another wand, as he was told by Ollivander, would rid him of Harry. When it didn’t is when he sought something else. This is on page in King’s Cross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
We are also not told who the mysterious "source we discussed" was. What we are shown is that Snape did not give Mundungus the date for the move. Nor was he given any instruction to do so. Dumbledore's portrait only told him to tell Voldemort the correct date. It seems most likely that the mysterious "source we discussed" is how Snape found out what date the Order had chosen.
It seems to me that the ellipses ( . . . ) at the end of the scene quite likely indicate we didn’t see the whole thing. Who could the mysterious source have been? There isn’t that wide a selection available. It seems unlikely that Mundungus would have been privy to the date (from the Order) and informed Snape (which we don’t see); the remainder of the Order has impeccable credentials and we aren’t shown any of them in contact with Snape after he killed DD. So where did he get that information? It’s much more likely, imo, that Snape passed it to the Order via Fletcher. Fletcher living among the riff raff like he did, could easily have said he overheard DE’s talking about the possible date they would take the Ministry. No need to invent another “mysterious source.” Especially since DD says “Not to do so (give the date to LV) will raise suspicion, when Voldemort believes you so well informed“ This definitely suggests they used a false “source” to cover Snape providing the info–which only Snape would have been privy to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I found the quote from Jo's website where she explained what happened in the forest between Harry and Voldemort.
And now we come to the crux of this post. Thank you, meesha, for tracking down this quote and including references. I’ve done some research to verify it (my habit, no reflection on meesha) and found another significant addition. I’m concerned that JKR removed it from her website, but it appears to be genuine and if she doesn’t change her mind about it (seems unlikely) then I need to take this information into account.

As I said previously, if the facts don’t fit the theory, then the theory needs to change. The info from this quote appears to require just that. From what I understand at this point, one assumption that I made–that the EW would not harm/kill Harry if it knew him to be its master seems to be incorrect. And this opens up a slew of other questions as well. I would appreciate anyone’s opinions, observations and theories as to what they think is happening. Now to dissect...
J.K. Rowling Official Site - Courtesy of The Wayback MachineWhat exactly happened when Voldemort used the Avada Kedavra curse on Harry in the forest?

Again, Voldemort violated deep laws of magic he did not understand, but there is more to it than that.

Having taken Harry’s blood into himself, Voldemort is keeping alive Lily’s protective power over Harry. So Voldemort himself acts almost like a Horcrux for Harry – except that the power of Lily’s sacrifice is a positive force that not only continues to tether Harry to life, but gives Voldemort himself one last chance (Dumbledore refers to this last hope in chapter 35). Voldemort has unwittingly put a few drops of goodness back inside himself; if he had repented, he could have been healed more deeply than anyone would have supposed. But, of course, he refused to feel remorse.
I think we are all agreed that Lily’s sacrifice provided a tether for Harry. But for me, Lily’s sacrifice giving LV one last chance at repentance is completely new. I altogether passed over this part of DD’s comments, emphasis mine:
DH: King’s Cross “His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort’s one last hope for himself.”
When Harry tells LV to “try for a little remorse,” I always thought it referred to Hermione’s comment about repairing a ripped soul, emphasis mine:
DH: The Ghoul in Pajamas“And the more I’ve read about them,” said Hermione, “the more horrible they seem, and the less I can believe that he actually made six. It warns in this book how unstable you make the rest of your soul by ripping it, and that’s just by making one Horcrux!”
....
“Isn’t there any way of putting yourself back together?” Ron asked.
....
“Remorse,” said Hermione. “You’ve got to really feel what you’ve done. There’s a footnote. Apparently the pain of it can destroy you. I can’t see Voldemort attempting it somehow, can you?”
But now I see a very subtle difference. Hermione is talking about ripping the soul apart to make the horcrux, not to undo a horcrux. When a horcrux is destroyed, so is the piece of soul that lives within:
DH: The Ghoul in Pajamas“...But my point is that whatever happens to your body, your soul will survive, untouched,” said Hermione. “But it’s the other way round with a Horcrux. The fragment of soul inside it depends on its container, its enchanted body, for survival. It can’t exist without it.”

“That diary sort of died when I stabbed it,” said Harry, remembering ink pouring like blood from the punctured pages, and the screams of the piece of Voldemort’s soul as it vanished.

“And once the diary was properly destroyed, the bit of soul trapped in it could no longer exist...”
So no amount of remorse could have put LV’s soul back together after the pieces he put into horcrux containers were destroyed because the pieces of soul no longer existed. This is why Lily’s sacrifice is LV’s one last hope: somehow it would have been able to heal LV’s soul if he could have repented.
J.K. Rowling Official Site - Courtesy of The Wayback MachineVoldemort is also using the Elder Wand - the wand that is really Harry’s. It does not work properly against its true owner; no curse Voldemort casts on Harry functions properly; neither the Cruciatus curse nor the Killing Curse.
As mentioned above, my assumption was that when JKR says the EW would not kill its master I took that to mean it would not cast a harmful/killing spell at Harry if it recognized him as master. Since it did perform the curses, I didn’t see how it could consider Harry its master. According to the quote, this is not the case. Apparently the power of the wizard can overcome, though not completely, the reluctance of the wand to perform a spell.

In “DH: The Final Hiding Place” we see LV using the EW to kill the goblin and wizards who brought him news that the cup was stolen. So the EW allows LV to cast, effectively, a full strength AK. But against Harry the curse is not full strength so evidently the wand is responsible for that diminishment of power. This is also significant in another way: Harry’s intent does not figure into the wand’s behavior at all.

And this quote clearly shows that the wand knows Harry is its master in the Forest. (Concede the point!) So instantaneous recognition is possible over distance, but this brings up my previous concern: If wands can sense at a distance when someone is defeated, how would that wizard ever get matched with another wand? There is one answer that fits: because of its uniquely great power, the EW is the only wand that can sense its master’s defeat over that great of a distance. Other wands have to be closer.
J.K. Rowling Official Site - Courtesy of The Wayback MachineThe Avada Kedavra curse, however, is so powerful that it does hurt Harry, and also succeeds in killing the part of him that is not truly him, in other words, the fragment of Voldemort’s own soul still clinging to his. The curse also disables Harry severely enough that he could have succumbed to death if he had chosen that path (again, Dumbledore says he has a choice whether or not to wake up). But Harry does decide to struggle back to consciousness, capitalizes on Lily’s ‘escape route’, and pulls himself back to the realm of the living.

Source (Note: my browser has identified this site as having an expired security certificate–proceed with caution.)
But there are still a few consequences that don’t make sense to me and also involves another quote from JKR:
JKR Website: (Question: “What exactly was the mutilated baby-like creature Harry saw at King’s Cross in chapter 35 of ‘Hallows’?”)

“I’ve been asked this a LOT. It is the last piece of soul Voldemort possesses. When Voldemort attacks Harry, they both fall temporarily unconscious, and both their souls – Harry’s undamaged and healthy, Voldemort’s stunted and maimed – appear in the limbo where Harry meets Dumbledore.”
www.hogwartsprofessor.com
I’ve always thought that the thing under the seat was the recently dispatched soul piece that had been attached to Harry, but apparently its what is left of LV’s current soul.

Why does LV fall unconscious? Harry absorbs the AK so it doesn’t appear to be a rebound. LV doesn’t feel when the other horcruxes are destroyed, nor did he notice the piece of his soul that went missing at Godric’s Hollow--why should this incident affect him so?

If Harry had the choice to go back, did LV? Of course Nagini was still alive–did that horcrux keep LV from passing “on”? If so, then it also kept Harry alive because his life was dependent on LV remaining alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I think that covers your question of why the Elder wand would have killed Harry in the forest, but not in the great hall. The answer is that it did not kill Harry - not completely anyway. It was a near death experience rather than actual death. The blood tether and the fact that Harry was the true master of the Elder wand were both factors in the killing curse not working properly. As Miracle Max would put it - Harry was not "all dead", he was only "mostly dead".
That “mostly” covers my question, yes. Thank you. (But channeling “The Princess Bride”?)

And there is something else here that I think needs to be looked at. DD says that as long as LV is alive, Harry is tethered to life also. This suggests that Harry could have come back from actual death (not just unconsciousness) without the EW “pulling its punches” so to speak. Why does JKR make the wand an accessory to this event when it doesn’t need to be? DD didn’t plan for Harry to master the EW, so that didn’t figure into his equation when he believed Harry would survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
In normal circumstances, something like this would not happen. The killing curse kills instantly - there is no chance of survival or being revived because you're completely dead as soon as the curse hits you. In normal circumstances, the killing curse cannot be blocked with defensive spells - though it can be dodged and/or blocked with objects - i.e. Harry diving behind a gravestone and Dumbledore throwing a statue in the path of the curse. In normal circumstances, the killing curse will not rebound off of a disarming charm.
It seems now that the reason the curse rebounded was due to the wand dampening the power of the spell. It would have been the same curse that Harry experienced in the Forest, but since he was casting his own counter spell, the weakened AK was pushed back onto LV. But I see a problem here too: if the weakened curse didn’t kill Harry in the Forest, why would the rebounded one kill LV? Of course it would send LV to the brink of death-like it did Harry; since LV has Lily’s protection as well, wouldn’t Harry be his tether while he was alive? Perhaps because LV’s soul was so damaged (as we see in King’s Cross) he was not capable of making that decision in the same way Harry did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Nah, I was just arguing a technicality. Again. Typical.
Ah, yes. Where is that jar of dead cockroaches . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Well, sure, but we aren't given any reason for that to be inaccurate. It could be something like the fact that rebounding is more dangerous for the caster than just plain not firing. I personally am not too comfortable with refuting points because I don't agree with them. It is, after all, JKR's party.
I wasn’t refuting the point because I didn’t agree–that rather defeats the purpose. But the facts have to be internally consistent. I have found that when they are not, there is usually a reason and I have to track it down.

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Are we not in agreement that Harry gained the wand through a thoroughly non-magical interaction with Draco?
We are. But my argument had been that the EW couldn’t know that until it magically interacted with the hawthorn wand in the Great Hall. Moot point now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
I don't think that can be offered as a conclusion, as you have also said both that you think the AK is unblockable, and that the Expelliarmus was not the cause of the curse rebounding on Voldemort. The AK is said to be an instantaneous cause of death; so if it is not blocked or otherwise avoided/repelled, Harry should have been back in King's Cross....If the Expelliarmus, as you suggest, could not repel the AK, then what is your explanation for its rebound back on Voldy, and the Elder Wand being knocked out of his hand?
Correct. But in my previous theory I saw the wand as interrupting the curse. The jet of light wasn’t completed and so the curse was pulled back onto LV. Moot point. I think your theory might be closer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
If the AK is not cast properly, it does not kill anyone, including Voldemort. But it does. If the Expelliarmus doesn't repel the AK, it should continue on to Harry, but it does not.
Except, according to the quote from JKR, the AK is not cast properly–the wand inhibits the full power of the curse. But that question remains–then why does it kill LV? In the forest it nearly kills Harry and if Harry had chosen to go “on” it would have. It looks like the flayed child that is LV’s soul is incapable, due to the damage he did to it, of making any decision whatsoever. I think this is what DD means when he says “But I know this, Harry, that you have less to fear from returning here than he does.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
The events in the book suggest both that the Expelliarmus did repel the spell and disarm Voldemort (as both of those things happened), and the AK was properly cast (resulted in Voldy's instant death).
I now think that Expelliarmus repelled the curse and disarmed LV. However, the AK was not properly cast–which is why Harry’s spell could work against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
I still hold the view that the most likely explanation is that the Elder Wand, knowing the curse Voldy was casting, and sensing the one Harry was casting -- it made a choice to side with its master (Harry) and cast the AK only after Harry's spell had left the hawthorn (a delay in releasing Voldy's curse).
Now here I still have to disagree. The wand does not sense intent–JKR’s quote shows it doesn’t need to. It will not kill its master, which it recognizes as Harry, and so only weakens the AK cast by LV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Here is my take on things. In the forest the AK kills Harry because he doesn't put up any resistance. He accepts what is coming. This also ensures that Voldemort didn't defeat Harry, which keeps the wand's loyalty with Harry. This was a good move in one other way as well, because if Harry did choose to move on (which he didn't) he would have broken the power of the wand (however I am sure he didn't realize all this at that particular point).
Apparently, Harry not putting up any resistance doesn’t have anything to do with the EW nearly killing him. I think Harry would have had to die a natural death for the power of the wand to be broken.

And there is this little bit between Harry and Dumbledore:
DH: King's Cross“And where would it take me?”

“On,” said Dumbledore simply.

Silence again.

“Voldemort’s got the Elder Wand.”

“True. Voldemort has the Elder Wand.”

“But you want me to go back?”

“I think,” said Dumbledore, “that if you choose to return, there is a chance that he may be finished for good.
Why is Harry concerned that LV has the EW if he goes "on"? If Harry died, wouldn't the power of the EW die with him if he didn't put up any resistance? I think he is concerned because his death would not be a natural one and so the power of the wand would not be broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
That's a reasonable conclusion, but you must also remember that a wand in itself cannot perform magic. Its simply a medium to channel the magic of a wizard. And since Voldemort was at the delivering end, he would have been able to produce the spell, even if the wand was unwilling (that is all hypothesis, without any canon to support )
The exception is Harry’s phoenix wand destroying Lucius Malfoy’s wand. But I think that is how it works–LV could still use the EW to produce his AK’s, but the EW prevented a fully powered AK to be produced against Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
Right, a couple of things I note from this passage:

The Elder Wand would not kill Harry, because it had recognised him as its Master. The fact that it says Harry had come to claim it 'at last' suggests to me that the wand already knew Harry was its Master and had for some time.
That does seem to fit now. However, in my previous version of my theory, that could have applied to Draco as well. Moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
Harry's Expelliarmus worked - the wand immediately left Voldemort and spun to Harry - despite the spell never reaching Voldemort unless it travelled along with the rebounding AK.
That is probably safe to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
Harry may well have been casting a stronger spell since he was using a wand that he had full control of while Voldemort was using a wand which not only did not accept him as Master but which had no intention of allowing the AK it was used for to kill Harry.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
The AK it cast was however effective since it immediately killed Voldemort.
And there is the rub. It would have cast an AK of the relatively same power that it did at Harry in the Forest. That harmed Harry enough to nearly cause his death because he chose to come back. I don’t think LV’s soul could have made that choice, as damaged as it was, as so he died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
The AK definitely rebounded as it says and as it never reached Harry it could only have rebounded from the point where the spells met. Although Expelliarmus would not normally have 'defeated' an AK, I think the Wand must have had to do something with the AK it had been obliged to cast at Harry and therefore used it to return to Voldemort and kill him instead. It's possible that the wand sensed its Master wanted Voldemort defeated and therefore used the AK to do that.
Agree the EW cast a weaker AK at Harry. Sensing Harry’s intent doesn’t seem to figure in with the way JKR describes it above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
What I'm unsure about is whether the Wand was obliged to cast an AK if the wizard holding it said that spell and therefore had to decide how to avoid killing Harry with it or whether it had already decided to send the AK back to Voldemort and thus wanted to be used for that spell. I suppose it depends on just how sentient the Elder Wand was.
I think if the AK was full strength, Harry’s Expelliarmus could not have pushed it back.


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  #1503  
Old June 15th, 2012, 3:40 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I wasn’t refuting the point because I didn’t agree–that rather defeats the purpose. But the facts have to be internally consistent. I have found that when they are not, there is usually a reason and I have to track it down.
But where is the internal inconsistency here? As I pointed out, anything here that seems inconsistent is generally through making the assumptions (externally) that wands can't sense intent, despite large amounts of support to the contrary, and that killing always counts as defeat.


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  #1504  
Old June 15th, 2012, 5:58 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Except, according to the quote from JKR, the AK is not cast properly–the wand inhibits the full power of the curse. But that question remains–then why does it kill LV? In the forest it nearly kills Harry and if Harry had chosen to go “on” it would have.
The Elder Wand did cast the curse properly. The full power of the curse was present in both the Forest and the Great Hall, because instant death resulted in each case -- Voldy's soul-piece behind Harry's scar, and Voldemort himself. The results prove that it was properly cast. What was held back was the full power of the Wand, and in my opinion, there was also the casting of it reluctantly so that Harry had time to get his spell away first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Now here I still have to disagree. The wand does not sense intent–JKR’s quote shows it doesn’t need to. It will not kill its master, which it recognizes as Harry, and so only weakens the AK cast by LV.
I don't think the quote shows that at all. A weakened AK would theoretically not kill anyone, much like fake-Moody's statement about the casting by novices with no intent to kill him. However, both AKs cast by the Elder Wand work perfectly fine, they both kill what they hit. An AK is either properly cast (meaning it kills) or not. I think there can be no disagreement due to the fact each AK cast killed properly.


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  #1505  
Old June 15th, 2012, 6:31 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
The Elder Wand did cast the curse properly. The full power of the curse was present in both the Forest and the Great Hall, because instant death resulted in each case -- Voldy's soul-piece behind Harry's scar, and Voldemort himself. The results prove that it was properly cast. What was held back was the full power of the Wand, and in my opinion, there was also the casting of it reluctantly so that Harry had time to get his spell away first.
Frankly, based on my interpretation of the King's Cross conversation, I think that we are able to conclude that the AK worked to its full capability not on the soul piece inside Harry (AK is a killing curse, not a soul-destroying curse), but on Harry's body itself. Harry's body was killed by the curse, and thus his soul and the soul-piece inside were forced out. Harry had the chance to move on, or return, due to the fact that the blood inside Voldemort's veins was capable of resurrecting his body.

I think that the way the Elder Wand enters into this- and there can be no doubt based on JKR's comments that it did- is that if the wand had been fully in Voldemort's power, his intent to permanently kill Harry may have been capable of overcoming the blood bond which gave Harry's soul the chance to hang around. This would be more to do with the wand being unbeatable than the AK being more 'powerful.'


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  #1506  
Old June 15th, 2012, 7:05 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I’m quite certain JKR rarely wrote anything that wasn’t deliberate. However, I see essentially no change occurring with the “very human moment” whether the wand knew at the exact instance that Harry took the wand from Draco or the wand realized later in the Great Hall that Harry was its master. In my opinion (obviously) the latter scenario works better–at least as the events are laid out in the last three chapters. However, there may be farther-reaching consequences that JKR wanted to take into account.
From what Jo said about it, the point was to show that all of Voldemort's and Dumbledore's grandiose plans and schemes were downfalls for each of them. They each have an agenda regarding the Elder wand and they each attempt to manipulate people and situations to bring those agenda's about. And they each fail because it came down to a couple of boys physically fighting over some wands. All those grandiose plans and schemes were, essentially, useless in the end. Voldemort's schemes led to him basically killing himself. Dumbledore's schemes hindered Harry and nearly resulted in him failing because of all the secrets and lies - it was luck that enabled Harry to succeed in the end rather than anything Dumbledore had done. In that respect, this moment between Harry and Draco does put those grandiose plans in there place, IMO.

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Harry’s musings indicate he wasn’t sure about Ollivander’s intentions. I don’t believe Ollivander was evil or that, if he did somewhat collude with Voldemort, it was because he was a bad person (or that he gave information before he was tortured.) But he had a distinct fascination for wands and was quite enthralled (Harry’s words, not mine) with the idea of Voldemort possessing the EW. And we see Ollivander willingly giving truthful information to Voldemort (Fallen Warrior–and remember LV is a Legilimens) but getting tortured anyway. Seems a hobby of LV’s to do so.

The reason LV didn’t go looking for the EW before Seven Potters was because he thought another wand, as he was told by Ollivander, would rid him of Harry. When it didn’t is when he sought something else. This is on page in King’s Cross.
It is also on page that Voldemort already knew about the Elder wand before the Seven Potters and that he wanted it for himself because he believed it would make him truly invulnerable - not just in regards to Harry, but with any enemy. That is what Dumbledore was certain would happen - Voldemort would want the Elder wand for himself and go after it regardless of what happened with Harry. Ollivander confirmed that was the case.

I would agree that Voldemort was willing to wait to go after the Elder wand because he believed Ollivander was right about another wizard's wand solving the problem. Once Voldemort learned about the twin cores, he was relieved - he believed that meant there was nothing special about Harry at all. He convinced himself that all those times Harry survived were due to other people intervening or accidents - lucky breaks. This is what Voldemort attempts to taunt Harry with in their final confrontation - accidents and luck saved him. His mother dying for him was intervention from her rather than anything special about Harry. Fawkes healing him in COS was intervention from Dumbledore - though indirect. The twin cores issue in GOF was a lucky break for Harry. Dumbledore intervened in OOTP.

Once Voldemort felt certain that there was nothing special about Harry, he wouldn't have felt the Elder wand was necessary to kill him - and Ollivander aided in that by telling him that any other wand would work. And even after that failed, Voldemort decided that Ollivander had lied to him - he still didn't think there was anything special about Harry. Regardless, there was no way to guarantee that there would be no confrontation between Harry and Voldemort - especially not with the Order including the real Harry in with the decoys instead of using the decoys as a diversion and getting the real Harry away from Privet Dr. using other means. Dumbledore would have known there was no way to guarantee that - just as he knew that Voldemort would eventually seek out the Elder wand regardless of what happened with Harry, IMO.

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It seems to me that the ellipses ( . . . ) at the end of the scene quite likely indicate we didn’t see the whole thing. Who could the mysterious source have been? There isn’t that wide a selection available. It seems unlikely that Mundungus would have been privy to the date (from the Order) and informed Snape (which we don’t see); the remainder of the Order has impeccable credentials and we aren’t shown any of them in contact with Snape after he killed DD. So where did he get that information? It’s much more likely, imo, that Snape passed it to the Order via Fletcher. Fletcher living among the riff raff like he did, could easily have said he overheard DE’s talking about the possible date they would take the Ministry. No need to invent another “mysterious source.” Especially since DD says “Not to do so (give the date to LV) will raise suspicion, when Voldemort believes you so well informed“ This definitely suggests they used a false “source” to cover Snape providing the info–which only Snape would have been privy to.
The ellipses mark the end of each memory - the end of that memory and then the scene shifts to the next memory. There is no evidence presented in the text that would suggest Snape gave the Order the date for the move at all. Dumbledore's portrait did not instruct him to do so. Snape did not give any date to Mundungus - which would have been included if that were the case, IMO. The Order chose the date on its own from what we're shown.

The identity of "the source we discussed" remains a mystery. It was not revealed in the book and, as far as I know, nobody has asked Jo about it since DH came out. All we can be sure of is that it was somebody important enough that Voldemort and Snape wanted to keep it a secret even from the other Death Eaters. That rules out Mundungus Fletcher, IMO. I doubt Snape would have even considered telling Voldemort that he could be a source - he had already proven himself to be unreliable and the last he was seen in HBP, he was on the run after Harry figured out he had stolen things from Grimmauld Place. Snape may have been referring to Dumbledore's portrait. His portrait could visit other portraits in the castle and get information from McGonagall - who was also a member of the Order and certainly more trusted than Mundungus ever was. Regardless, I think the text is clear that Snape's task was only to find out what date the Order had chosen and report that to Voldemort because that was the only instruction he was given in regards to the date.

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And now we come to the crux of this post. Thank you, meesha, for tracking down this quote and including references. I’ve done some research to verify it (my habit, no reflection on meesha) and found another significant addition. I’m concerned that JKR removed it from her website, but it appears to be genuine and if she doesn’t change her mind about it (seems unlikely) then I need to take this information into account.
No problem there - I would do the same. That's why I provided a link.

I'm not concerned about the changes to Jo's website - with a new book coming out that is separate from the HP series, it makes sense to revamp the website rather than limit it to HP information. I expect all of this information will eventually be available on Pottermore as well.

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So no amount of remorse could have put LV’s soul back together after the pieces he put into horcrux containers were destroyed because the pieces of soul no longer existed. This is why Lily’s sacrifice is LV’s one last hope: somehow it would have been able to heal LV’s soul if he could have repented.
I don't think that would have completely healed Voldemort's soul. The seven soul fragments had been destroyed already - they were gone forever, as Hermione explained. I think what was left of Voldemort's soul could potentially be "saved" - for lack of a better term - if he were capable of feeling remorse for what he had done. His remaining soul would still be a fragment, but possibly not the maimed and disfigured fragment Harry saw in Kings Cross.

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I’ve always thought that the thing under the seat was the recently dispatched soul piece that had been attached to Harry, but apparently its what is left of LV’s current soul.

Why does LV fall unconscious? Harry absorbs the AK so it doesn’t appear to be a rebound. LV doesn’t feel when the other horcruxes are destroyed, nor did he notice the piece of his soul that went missing at Godric’s Hollow--why should this incident affect him so?

If Harry had the choice to go back, did LV? Of course Nagini was still alive–did that horcrux keep LV from passing “on”? If so, then it also kept Harry alive because his life was dependent on LV remaining alive.
I think what happened in the forest was bigger than Harry just absorbing the killing curse. It didn't rebound like when Harry was a baby, but I think there was a significant amount of force involved. When Harry was a baby, not only did the curse rebound, there was also an explosion that destroyed part of the house. I think something similar happened in the forest - not like a bomb going off so much as the force of it knocking them both down and causing each to lose consciousness.

From what was revealed about how Horcruxes work, I don't think it was a matter of choice for Voldemort. A single Horcrux is binding - preventing the soul from moving on. In that respect, what was left of Voldemort's soul couldn't get on a train and move on - as Dumbledore told Harry he could do. It would have been pulled back to Voldemort's body regardless because Nagini still lived.

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That “mostly” covers my question, yes. Thank you. (But channeling “The Princess Bride”?)
I don't know why, but Miracle Max talking about the difference between mostly dead and all dead always pops into my head when discussing what happened to Harry in the forest.

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And there is something else here that I think needs to be looked at. DD says that as long as LV is alive, Harry is tethered to life also. This suggests that Harry could have come back from actual death (not just unconsciousness) without the EW “pulling its punches” so to speak. Why does JKR make the wand an accessory to this event when it doesn’t need to be? DD didn’t plan for Harry to master the EW, so that didn’t figure into his equation when he believed Harry would survive.
No, Dumbledore didn't intend to anyone to become master of the Elder wand. However, considering his comment to Snape that he felt Harry would arrange things so that his death would "truly mean the the end of Voldemort", I think Dumbledore was trying to manipulate the situation so that Harry would sacrifice himself in a manner similar to Lily in hopes that it would create a similar protection. In conjunction with his plan to break the power of the Elder wand, that would weaken Voldemort considerably because he would have been using a wand he could never master and no spell he cast against those Harry protected - which was everyone fighting against Voldemort - would be binding. That would have been the end of Voldemort in the sense that he would no longer be a true threat. Even if Dumbledore had been wrong about the blood tether, anyone would have been able to kill Voldemort once all the Horcruxes had been destroyed because Voldemort would not be able to truly hurt or kill any of his enemies.

For Dumbledore's plan, it wouldn't make any difference what wand Voldemort was using when he killed Harry because that wasn't about the wand. However, for Harry, Voldemort using the Elder wand and failing to kill him - as well as feeling no pain from the Cruciatus curse - helps him figure out the truth about the Elder wand. Using the information he got from Ollivander at Shell Cottage, from Dumbledore in Kings Cross, and what he saw in Snape's memories, Harry is able to put all the pieces in place and figure out what Dumbledore was actually trying to do - as well as what went wrong and why.

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It seems now that the reason the curse rebounded was due to the wand dampening the power of the spell. It would have been the same curse that Harry experienced in the Forest, but since he was casting his own counter spell, the weakened AK was pushed back onto LV. But I see a problem here too: if the weakened curse didn’t kill Harry in the Forest, why would the rebounded one kill LV? Of course it would send LV to the brink of death-like it did Harry; since LV has Lily’s protection as well, wouldn’t Harry be his tether while he was alive? Perhaps because LV’s soul was so damaged (as we see in King’s Cross) he was not capable of making that decision in the same way Harry did?
I don't think the curse itself was weakened actually. I think it's more that the curse would not work on Harry specifically because he was the true master of the Elder wand. That's where Harry's intentions are significant I think. In the forest, he allows the curse to hit him - does not resist, attempt to defend, or dodge it. It does not kill him, but it does do enough damage that he could have succumbed to death. In the great hall, Harry does resist and defends himself with Expelliarmus - the spells collide and both spells hit Voldemort so that he dies and is disarmed all at once.

I think that was limited to Harry because he was the true master of the Elder wand - spells would work on others, but not on Harry. Not being able to master the Elder wand only prevented Voldemort from getting that extra power boost so he could use it, but it was basically the same as using his yew wand or Lucius' wand. Voldemort wanted that extra power the wand was supposed to give and he couldn't get it. Snape pointed that out - Voldemort had done extraordinary magic with the Elder wand, but he was disappointed because it was his usual magic - not the extra powerful magic the wand was supposed to provide. But he could do magic with the Elder wand and it would work on everyone prior to Harry's sacrifice - except for the true master of the Elder wand.

For example, if Ron had rushed into the forest and shoved Harry out of the way at the last minute, Ron would have died because he was not the master of the Elder wand and the curse would have worked as it was supposed to. I don't think it was something that the wand did itself because wands just channel a wizard's magic and the Elder wand only has the added effect of amplifying the magic so it is more powerful. I think it was more along the lines of a kind of immunity specific to Harry because he was the true master of the Elder wand. In the great hall, Voldemort's killing curse would not have killed Harry - and probably would not have killed anyone else that Harry protected with his sacrifice - but it would kill Voldemort and anyone fighting with him.

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Apparently, Harry not putting up any resistance doesn’t have anything to do with the EW nearly killing him. I think Harry would have had to die a natural death for the power of the wand to be broken.
Harry would still have to die undefeated as well. The only way to ensure that nobody else could master the Elder wand is for Harry to retain mastery of the Elder wand into death. If he were to be defeated by any means before he dies, the Elder wand would transfer it's allegiance - just as it did with Draco when he disarmed Dumbledore.

Killing someone does not equal defeat - and that is where intent matters. The information from Jo does not change that, IMO. You cannot defeat someone who is letting you win because you have not overcome anything - you have not conquered them. Harry choosing to let Voldemort kill him had nothing to do with his survival - that was due to the blood tether and him being master of the Elder wand. The significance of Harry allowing Voldemort to kill him was that it ensured his death was not a true defeat. Harry retained mastery of the Elder wand into death because he let Voldemort kill him. The Elder wand did not change allegiance because it knew that Harry let Voldemort win so it was not a true defeat. There was nothing for Voldemort to overcome so he did not conquer Harry. As Jo said, to become master of the Elder wand, you have to conquer its current master. The Elder wand would rather belong to a dead master who was undefeated - the ultimate sign of power - than a living master who only won because Harry let him win.

Jo discussed this in the Pottercast interview in regards to situations in which a wand would not change allegiance.

PotterCast Interviews J.K. Rowling, part twoJKR: No, I don't think so. I have been asked a lot of times, well what about Dueling Club and so on? Well I think it's clear there that in practice, where there's no real weight attached to the transference of a wand, where it's almost all for fun or purely for competition, there's no enormous significance attached in either wizard's mind to a wand flying out of someone's hand. But there are situations in which the emotional state of wizards where a lot hangs on a duel, that's something different. That's about real power and that's about transference that will have far-reaching effects in some cases. So I think the wand would behave differently then.


So intent is significant in regards to wands transferring allegiance. What is going through the wizard's mind, their emotional state - these are important factors every wand will use to determine what the circumstances are. If Harry and Ron are just fooling around and practicing the disarming charm, their wands are not going to transfer allegiance - and that would include the Elder wand - because the wands would know that they are not truly fighting each other. There's no enormous significant to it because it's not a real duel. Harry walking into the forest and Voldemort killing him was not a real duel and that enables him to retain mastery of the Elder wand into death.

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Why is Harry concerned that LV has the EW if he goes "on"? If Harry died, wouldn't the power of the EW die with him if he didn't put up any resistance? I think he is concerned because his death would not be a natural one and so the power of the wand would not be broken.
Harry was still figuring it all out at this point - processing all the information and putting the pieces together. And he had also heard this exchange between Voldemort and Snape.

DH, pg 653“I have a problem, Severus,” said Voldemort softly.

“My Lord?” said Snape.

Voldemort raised the Elder Wand, holding it as delicately and precisely as a conductor’s baton.

“Why doesn’t it work for me, Severus?”

In the silence Harry imagined he could hear the snake hissing slightly as it coiled and uncoiled — or was it Voldemort’s sibilant sigh lingering on the air?

“My — my Lord?” said Snape blankly. “I do not understand. You — you have performed extraordinary magic with that wand.”

“No,” said Voldemort. “I have performed my usual magic. I am extraordinary, but this wand . . . no. It has not revealed the wonders it has promised. I feel no difference between this wand and the one I procured from Ollivander all those years ago.”

Voldemort’s tone was musing, calm, but Harry’s scar had begun to throb and pulse: Pain was building in his forehead, and he could feel that controlled sense of fury building inside Voldemort.

“No difference,” said Voldemort again.


So Harry knew that Voldemort could use the Elder wand to cast spells. The wand was not producing the extra power it was supposed to, but it was working as well as Voldemort's yew wand. By the time he confronts Voldemort in the great hall, Harry had figured out that his sacrifice had created a protection charm similar to Lily's and that he was the true master of the Elder wand, but I don't think he had quite put it all together when he decides to return instead of taking a train.

I do think Harry was starting to put it all together though. I think his comment about Voldemort having the Elder wand is as much a question as it is an observation. Harry was asking Dumbledore if Voldemort having the Elder wand made a difference, IMO. He's figuring it out, but he wasn't entirely sure if he was right - even in the final moments where he confronted Voldemort and explained what he had figured out, he wasn't 100% sure. I think Harry was hoping that Dumbledore would - for once - just tell him exactly what he should do and why. But Dumbledore never worked that way. He never really gave a straight answer or explained things in detail to Harry - he always gave cryptic responses and let Harry figure things out on his own.


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  #1507  
Old June 16th, 2012, 5:29 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Frankly, based on my interpretation of the King's Cross conversation, I think that we are able to conclude that the AK worked to its full capability not on the soul piece inside Harry (AK is a killing curse, not a soul-destroying curse), but on Harry's body itself. Harry's body was killed by the curse, and thus his soul and the soul-piece inside were forced out. Harry had the chance to move on, or return, due to the fact that the blood inside Voldemort's veins was capable of resurrecting his body.
We do have book canon, Dumbledore in King's Cross, telling us that Harry was not killed by the Elder Wand; and we had JKR saying much the same, explaining that Harry's body was injured, not dead, and only with a decision by Harry's soul to "move on" and abandon his body would it have died.

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Originally Posted by willfitz
I think that the way the Elder Wand enters into this- and there can be no doubt based on JKR's comments that it did- is that if the wand had been fully in Voldemort's power, his intent to permanently kill Harry may have been capable of overcoming the blood bond which gave Harry's soul the chance to hang around. This would be more to do with the wand being unbeatable than the AK being more 'powerful.'
I would disagree that the Wand is unbeatable, because we have been shown that it is not. Dumbledore beat Grindelwald in their duel, for example, proving the Elder Wand can be beaten. The way Dumbledore explains the Hallows in King's Cross gives the distinct impression that the "unbeatable" part is likely legend.

I'm not sure we can properly draw a conclusion here because Voldemort was not the true master of the Wand, and the Wand has not been shown to be unbeatable.


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  #1508  
Old June 16th, 2012, 6:07 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
We do have book canon, Dumbledore in King's Cross, telling us that Harry was not killed by the Elder Wand; and we had JKR saying much the same, explaining that Harry's body was injured, not dead, and only with a decision by Harry's soul to "move on" and abandon his body would it have died.
Okay, sorry, I had to go back and read that quote one more time. It seems that this is indeed one of the ways that the soul piece in Harry does not act like a Horcrux.

I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that the soul piece was destroyed in the act was due to Harry's intent, and the power of the Wand.

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I would disagree that the Wand is unbeatable, because we have been shown that it is not.
Of course, this has long been a source of debate. Given that we never actually get any insight into what happened, I tend not to like to read too much into that. It is not ever shown that the wand is truly unbeatable, but it is certainly shown that it has power above and beyond normal wands (see the power to repair Harry's wand), thus perhaps we could call it an unmatchable wand.


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  #1509  
Old June 17th, 2012, 1:04 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
But where is the internal inconsistency here? As I pointed out, anything here that seems inconsistent is generally through making the assumptions (externally) that wands can't sense intent, despite large amounts of support to the contrary, and that killing always counts as defeat.
It has to be consistent for me. I accept a different set of facts than you do and/or weight their importance differently. I am not saying that your theory is inconsistent according to how you view what the text is saying. Since I don’t accept (at this point and based on what I think is convincing evidence) that the EW considers wizard(s) intent, then I’m not going to accept intent as a consistent element in my theory. Just as you will not accept the opposite in yours, correct?

I felt there was insufficient evidence that wands could sense a change in ownership from the distance between Malfoy Manor and DD’s tomb at Hogwarts. Yes, house elves can be called from that distance, owl posts can magically find their destinations and there are objects that can sense certain information from afar, though they are mostly unique objects; we have no examples of wands being able to do so. However, with JKR telling us that was the case, I have to include that fact in my theory. But the EW appears to be unique, probably because it is uniquely powerful. So my theory changes, but without explicit information to the contrary, it can still hold that the EW is the only wand that could have sensed the change in its master from that distance.

As for the EW sensing or considering intent–I do not accept that at all. You claim there are large amounts of support for this, but I don’t see it that way. In the quote meesha brought to the table, there is no indication that intent on Harry’s part had anything to do with the EW’s behavior–it was strictly protecting its master and acted consistently the same with all three of LV’s curses (AK, CC, AK.) Is that conclusive proof that intent is not considered? Not at all–I don’t think you would see it that way–but what I see is a very definite tick in my “Intent is irrelevant” column.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
The Elder Wand did cast the curse properly. The full power of the curse was present in both the Forest and the Great Hall, because instant death resulted in each case–Voldy's soul-piece behind Harry's scar, and Voldemort himself. The results prove that it was properly cast. What was held back was the full power of the Wand, and in my opinion, there was also the casting of it reluctantly so that Harry had time to get his spell away first.
JKR says “no curse Voldemort casts on Harry functions properly; neither the Cruciatus curse nor the Killing Curse.” It’s the curse that isn’t working. In the Great Hall JKR says the wand would not kill its master–indicating it is the wand itself that is hampering LV’s curse. And the CC does not cause Harry any pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I think what happened in the forest was bigger than Harry just absorbing the killing curse. It didn't rebound like when Harry was a baby, but I think there was a significant amount of force involved. When Harry was a baby, not only did the curse rebound, there was also an explosion that destroyed part of the house. I think something similar happened in the forest - not like a bomb going off so much as the force of it knocking them both down and causing each to lose consciousness.
But Lily’s protection–what caused the curse to rebound and blast the house apart–was somewhat neutralized when LV took Harry’s blood to reincarnate. If it hadn’t been, LV never would have dared try AK him again in GoF, OotP and DH. The whole reason LV chose to use Harry’s blood was so he could kill him. And we aren’t shown any sort of blast in the Forest–it would have knocked the attending DE’s unconscious too–not just LV and Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
From what was revealed about how Horcruxes work, I don't think it was a matter of choice for Voldemort. A single Horcrux is binding - preventing the soul from moving on. In that respect, what was left of Voldemort's soul couldn't get on a train and move on - as Dumbledore told Harry he could do. It would have been pulled back to Voldemort's body regardless because Nagini still lived.
I agree. However, in Godric’s Hollow, he wasn’t sent to “King’s Cross” or it’s equivalent. So why does he show up there in DH? Seems to be an inconsistency.

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
No, Dumbledore didn't intend to anyone to become master of the Elder wand.
I’m afraid I don’t agree. There is sufficient evidence to indicate that he wanted Snape to master the wand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
However, considering his comment to Snape that he felt Harry would arrange things so that his death would "truly mean the the end of Voldemort", I think Dumbledore was trying to manipulate the situation so that Harry would sacrifice himself in a manner similar to Lily in hopes that it would create a similar protection.
Here, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
In conjunction with his plan to break the power of the Elder wand, that would weaken Voldemort considerably because he would have been using a wand he could never master and no spell he cast against those Harry protected - which was everyone fighting against Voldemort - would be binding.
If it was DD’s plan to break the power of the wand, then when Draco disarmed him, his portrait should have informed Snape of what was going on. Why not continue on with that plan? He knew the mastery of the wand passed to Draco before he died and he knew that, if LV for some reason would go after it (sooner rather than later), then Snape would be in danger because LV would kill him for it. That endangers the rest of DD’s plan because Snape has to tell Harry he has to let LV kill him–that is the most crucial part.

Also–if the power of the wand is broken, I think that means the wand no longer works at all, not that its power is simply diminished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I don't think the curse itself was weakened actually. I think it's more that the curse would not work on Harry specifically because he was the true master of the Elder wand. That's where Harry's intentions are significant I think. In the forest, he allows the curse to hit him - does not resist, attempt to defend, or dodge it. It does not kill him, but it does do enough damage that he could have succumbed to death. In the great hall, Harry does resist and defends himself with Expelliarmus - the spells collide and both spells hit Voldemort so that he dies and is disarmed all at once.
JKR’s specific wording is “no curse Voldemort casts on Harry functions properly.” That indicates the power of the curse itself is diminished. And only if the power of the curse is lessened could Expelliarmus counter it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
So intent is significant in regards to wands transferring allegiance. What is going through the wizard's mind, their emotional state - these are important factors every wand will use to determine what the circumstances are.
But then that works both ways. If DD wanted Snape to become master of the EW, then all he would have to do is have that intent when he died at Snape’s hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Harry was still figuring it all out at this point - processing all the information and putting the pieces together. And he had also heard this exchange between Voldemort and Snape.
But DD agrees with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Jo discussed this in the Pottercast interview in regards to situations in which a wand would not change allegiance.
But do you realize what JKR is saying here? Emphasis mine.
PotterCast Interviews J.K. Rowling, part two[/fieldsetJKR: No, I don't think so. I have been asked a lot of times, well what about Dueling Club and so on? Well I think it's clear there that in practice, where there's no real weight attached to the transference of a wand, where it's almost all for fun or purely for competition, there's no enormous significance attached in either wizard's mind to a wand flying out of someone's hand. But there are situations in which the emotional state of wizards where a lot hangs on a duel, that's something different. That's about real power and that's about transference that will have far-reaching effects in some cases. So I think the wand would behave differently then.
This clearly indicates that intent can be one-sided. Someone may attack with intent and it won’t matter if the other party matches that intent or not–especially with the Elder Wand. I think we see this happen several times in its history. And it’s not particularly just intent. JKR states above that emotional states are involved. Antioch was in drunken stupor, may even have been unconscious, and there’s no evidence he fought back at all–no emotional state exists. And rereading Gregorovitch’s account for the umpteenth time I just realized something:
DH: The ThiefAnd now Harry was hurrying along a dark corridor in stout little Gregorovitch’s wake as he held a lantern aloft: Gregorovitch burst into the room at the end of the passage and his lantern illuminated what looked like a workshop; wood shavings and gold gleamed in the swinging pool of light, and there on the window ledge sat perched, like a giant bird, a young man with golden hair. In the split second that the lantern’s light illuminated him, Harry saw the delight upon his handsome face, then the intruder shot a Stunning Spell from his wand and jumped neatly backward out of the window with a crow of laughter.
There is no mention of the EW at all. When Gregorovitch enters the room he doesn’t even know if anything has been taken or whether the thief is coming or going.


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  #1510  
Old June 17th, 2012, 6:27 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
JKR says “no curse Voldemort casts on Harry functions properly; neither the Cruciatus curse nor the Killing Curse.” It’s the curse that isn’t working. In the Great Hall JKR says the wand would not kill its master–indicating it is the wand itself that is hampering LV’s curse. And the CC does not cause Harry any pain.
The curse does not work on Harry. But that doesn't mean the curse is not properly cast, it means that Harry is protected from its effects. The AK was perfectly fine, there was nothing wrong with it; it killed Voldemort. If we have the effect confirmed on page, I don't see how it can be dismissed as "not working".

Despite any role the Elder Wand may have played in the final confrontation, it wasn't ineffective curses. We also have to consider that perhaps, due to Voldemort's actions in the Forest, Harry's blood protection reverted to its original state where Voldemort can't kill him, and can't even touch him as well.


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  #1511  
Old June 17th, 2012, 6:36 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
JKR says “no curse Voldemort casts on Harry functions properly; neither the Cruciatus curse nor the Killing Curse.” It’s the curse that isn’t working. In the Great Hall JKR says the wand would not kill its master–indicating it is the wand itself that is hampering LV’s curse. And the CC does not cause Harry any pain.
No curse that Voldemort cast on Harry would function properly because Harry was the true master of the Elder wand. Voldemort had been able to use the Elder wand on others with no problem - it didn't give him the boost of power he expected because he wasn't its true master, but it did work for him essentially as well as his yew wand did. The significant factor in that is Harry being the master of the wand rather than the wand itself, IMO.

Quote:
But Lily’s protection–what caused the curse to rebound and blast the house apart–was somewhat neutralized when LV took Harry’s blood to reincarnate. If it hadn’t been, LV never would have dared try AK him again in GoF, OotP and DH. The whole reason LV chose to use Harry’s blood was so he could kill him. And we aren’t shown any sort of blast in the Forest–it would have knocked the attending DE’s unconscious too–not just LV and Harry.
Lily's protection would have been the catalyst for that - and that occurred almost immediately after that protection was created. However, the same is true for Harry because his sacrifice created a protection charm as well. I also think the deep connections between Voldemort and Harry were significant to all of that. We are with Harry throughout and he was not aware of what happened after the curse hit him because he immediately went to Kings Cross. It was when he returned and woke up that he realized something had happened that caused Voldemort to get knocked unconscious as well.

Quote:
I agree. However, in Godric’s Hollow, he wasn’t sent to “King’s Cross” or it’s equivalent. So why does he show up there in DH? Seems to be an inconsistency.
Because in Godric's Hollow, Harry did not go to Kings Cross or its equivalent. Voldemort and Harry were connected in various ways - the first connection being forged that night in Godric's Hollow when that fragment of Voldemort's soul attached itself to Harry. Voldemort using Harry's blood in GOF forged another connection between them. Harry's "death" destroyed that fragment of Voldemort's soul so that connection was broken, but the blood tether still existed. When Voldemort was knocked unconscious, what was left of his soul was dragged into Kings Cross with Harry's because of that connection, IMO.

Quote:
I’m afraid I don’t agree. There is sufficient evidence to indicate that he wanted Snape to master the wand.
Snape might have ended up with the Elder wand in his possession after he killed Dumbledore, but that would not have made him master of the wand. As was explained on page, having possession of the wand is not enough. The only way to master the Elder wand is to defeat its current master. Dumbledore ensured that Snape could not become master of the Elder wand by giving him permission to kill him. There was nothing for Snape to overcome so there was no defeat. The Elder wand would not transfer its allegiance to someone who only won because they were allowed to by its current master because that would not demonstrate them to be more powerful. From what we are shown, Dumbledore knew that. Dumbledore's portrait confirms that as well when Harry asks after Voldemort was defeated. Harry's conclusions about Dumbledore's plan to break the power of the wand by dying undefeated are not contradicted in any way by the text, IMO.

Quote:
If it was DD’s plan to break the power of the wand, then when Draco disarmed him, his portrait should have informed Snape of what was going on. Why not continue on with that plan? He knew the mastery of the wand passed to Draco before he died and he knew that, if LV for some reason would go after it (sooner rather than later), then Snape would be in danger because LV would kill him for it. That endangers the rest of DD’s plan because Snape has to tell Harry he has to let LV kill him–that is the most crucial part.
Actually, that didn't endanger Dumbledore's plan at all. There were various alternatives that Dumbledore or his portrait could have utilized to ensure Harry got the sword and found out that he had to die. His portrait could visit other portraits within Hogwarts so it would be a simple matter for him to go to a portrait in McGonagall's office and explain the situation to her if need be. Since McGonagall was also a member of the Order, she could pass messages to them. He could also utilize Phineas Nigellis for that purpose if Harry went to Grimmauld Place - which was likely and did occur. Likewise, Dumbledore's portrait would have known that Hermione had taken Phineas Nigellis' portrait out of Grimmauld Place so that was a constant means of communication if he felt it necessary. Phineas could have delivered messages from Dumbledore's portrait to Harry at any time - like he did for Dumbledore in OOTP. Dumbledore's portrait could also utilize the house-elves - again, he could visit any portrait in the castle so he could search for one or even just wait until one showed up to clean the Headmaster's office. He could send any house-elf to Harry - or even ask for Dobby or Kreacher specifically. Snape being killed wouldn't really change anything beyond Harry getting the sword and finding out that he had to die a different way.

Telling anyone about the Elder wand and that Draco had become its master on the tower that night would only serve to put Draco in danger - which is precisely what Dumbledore was trying to avoid by asking Snape to kill him in the first place. He only told Snape that he was concerned about Draco's soul, but the primary reason that he did not want Draco to kill him was that he was certain Voldemort would eventually go after the Elder wand and that would put Draco in danger, IMO. Dumbledore felt that Draco was still young enough to change - to choose a different path - and wanted him to have that chance. Dumbledore never told Snape about the Horcruxes or the Elder wand because he did not want him to know about those things. Snape knowing presented the risk of Voldemort finding out - as Dumbledore explained when he and Snape argued in HBP. He didn't really want Harry to know about it either, but he realized that Harry might need to know about the Deathly Hallows so he left the fairy tales to Hermione as a cryptic clue - but he also hoped Hermione would be able to slow Harry up in finding out about them.

Dumbledore felt that the Elder wand was too dangerous in that it presented a terrible temptation. He was concerned that Harry would fall victim to that temptation - which he admitted and apologized for in Kings Cross. I think he had that same concern regarding Snape - as well as the added risk of Voldemort discovering the truth. There really wasn't anything Snape could have done to fix the situation and telling him would have likely only made things worse. If Snape attacked Draco to master the wand, he would have to come up with an explanation for why he did so. Either way, Snape would still be killed by Voldemort because Voldemort believed it was necessary to kill in order to master the Elder wand and Snape was the one who killed Dumbledore. Having the Elder wand wouldn't prevent that - many of its previous masters had been killed. It was only legend that the wand was unbeatable - the reality was that, while it was a very powerful wand, its master could still be defeated and Snape was no match for Voldemort even with the Elder wand, IMO. As such, I can't see Dumbledore's portrait telling Snape anything about the Elder wand because that would have been a pointless endeavor that only served to put Draco in danger and Snape would still have been killed regardless, IMO. And that would make Voldemort the master of the Elder wand - which is exactly what Dumbledore wanted to prevent.

Quote:
Also–if the power of the wand is broken, I think that means the wand no longer works at all, not that its power is simply diminished.
That only means that nobody could ever master the wand again. It could still be used, but it would not provide any extra power. Voldemort could use the Elder wand even though he was not the true master of it, but it did not work any better or provide any more power than his yew wand did - he said there was no difference. The "power" of the Elder wand - and what made it such a temptation - was that its true master would be able to do more powerful magic with it. It would do things that other wands could not - i.e. Harry being able to repair his broken phoenix wand with the Elder wand where Hermione's wand had failed and even Ollivander said he could not do it. If its true master dies undefeated, that power dies with them because only the true master could get that kind of power from the Elder wand. In that event, the Elder wand would be no different than any other wand.

Quote:
JKR’s specific wording is “no curse Voldemort casts on Harry functions properly.” That indicates the power of the curse itself is diminished. And only if the power of the curse is lessened could Expelliarmus counter it.
That is still specific to Harry - as I said above. The common factor in all of that is the fact that Harry was the true master of the Elder wand. It would not work properly against him. It worked fine against other people - and Voldemort himself. The killing curse rebounded because Harry was the true master of the Elder wand and he fought back. From what we're shown, the killing curse itself was no different - it killed Voldemort when it hit him. The only person it would not have killed was Harry, IMO.

Quote:
But then that works both ways. If DD wanted Snape to become master of the EW, then all he would have to do is have that intent when he died at Snape’s hand.
Only if Snape actually defeated Dumbledore. The wand chooses the wizard. Dumbledore couldn't make that decision - it was up to the Elder wand. And Dumbledore ensured that there would be no defeat by asking Snape to kill him. You cannot defeat someone when they're letting you win. The Elder wand would rather belong to a dead master who died undefeated than someone who could only win because they were given permission from what we're shown.

Quote:
But DD agrees with him.
Dumbledore confirms that Voldemort has the Elder wand - he does not elaborate beyond that. Harry was still putting the pieces together and working it all out, IMO. That was always Dumbledore's style - he used cryptic clues and asked questions that would lead Harry to figure things out on his own. That's what made him such an excellent teacher, IMO. However, that could also be an annoying trait - particularly when Harry needed answers.

Quote:
But do you realize what JKR is saying here? Emphasis mine.
PotterCast Interviews J.K. Rowling, part two[/fieldsetJKR: No, I don't think so. I have been asked a lot of times, well what about Dueling Club and so on? Well I think it's clear there that in practice, where there's no real weight attached to the transference of a wand, where it's almost all for fun or purely for competition, there's no enormous significance attached in either wizard's mind to a wand flying out of someone's hand. But there are situations in which the emotional state of wizards where a lot hangs on a duel, that's something different. That's about real power and that's about transference that will have far-reaching effects in some cases. So I think the wand would behave differently then.
This clearly indicates that intent can be one-sided. Someone may attack with intent and it won’t matter if the other party matches that intent or not–especially with the Elder Wand. I think we see this happen several times in its history. And it’s not particularly just intent. JKR states above that emotional states are involved. Antioch was in drunken stupor, may even have been unconscious, and there’s no evidence he fought back at all–no emotional state exists.
The Elder wand would still know that Antioch was not letting himself be killed - that he did not want to die. Antioch had spent his time bragging about having an unbeatable wand and challenging people to duels to prove it. He wanted to win and keep that wand for himself. Being drunk only rendered him incapable of fighting back - it did not change what he wanted. Antioch did not willingly sacrifice himself - he was murdered in cold blood. That was a true defeat.

Quote:
And rereading Gregorovitch’s account for the umpteenth time I just realized something:
DH: The ThiefAnd now Harry was hurrying along a dark corridor in stout little Gregorovitch’s wake as he held a lantern aloft: Gregorovitch burst into the room at the end of the passage and his lantern illuminated what looked like a workshop; wood shavings and gold gleamed in the swinging pool of light, and there on the window ledge sat perched, like a giant bird, a young man with golden hair. In the split second that the lantern’s light illuminated him, Harry saw the delight upon his handsome face, then the intruder shot a Stunning Spell from his wand and jumped neatly backward out of the window with a crow of laughter.
There is no mention of the EW at all. When Gregorovitch enters the room he doesn’t even know if anything has been taken or whether the thief is coming or going.
There doesn't need to be any mention of the Elder wand. There was no mention of the Elder wand at Malfoy Manor either - it wasn't even there when Harry defeated Draco. Gregorovitch rushed into that room to stop Grindelwald, but Grindelwald defeated Gregorovitch by stunning him. That made Grindelwald master of the Elder wand because he conquered Gregorovitch.

That is the significant factor. The only way to master the Elder wand is to defeat - to conquer - its current master. That's how the Elder wand chooses its master - whoever conquers its current master is deemed more powerful and it will switch its allegiance. Regular wands may choose not to switch allegiance depending on the circumstances and the intent of the wizards involved. All wands are quasi-sentient so they know what's going on - whether it's a real duel or just practice or competition for fun. They know what their master wants. The only difference with the Elder wand is that it will always change allegiance to anyone who conquers its current master because that is how it decides who is more powerful.

Dumbledore's intent is only significant in that he was willingly sacrificing himself. The primary reason for that was the curse that was slowly killing him - the curse that was set by Voldemort. Dumbledore could not allow the curse to kill him because that would mean that Voldemort had defeated him and Voldemort would then become the master of the Elder wand. Dumbledore could not allow that to happen so he planned his own death to prevent it and hoped to break the power of the Elder wand by dying undefeated.

It was not possible for Dumbledore to arrange for anyone else to become master of the Elder wand because that would involve giving them permission - which would mean that they did not actually defeat him. The only way to master the Elder wand is to conquer its current master. You cannot conquer someone who is letting you win. Dumbledore planned his own death and gave Snape permission to do it so that was not a defeat. Had Draco not managed to disarm Dumbledore first, Dumbledore would have died undefeated because that was suicide - not murder.


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  #1512  
Old June 17th, 2012, 7:13 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
The curse does not work on Harry. But that doesn't mean the curse is not properly cast, it means that Harry is protected from its effects. The AK was perfectly fine, there was nothing wrong with it; it killed Voldemort. If we have the effect confirmed on page, I don't see how it can be dismissed as "not working".

Despite any role the Elder Wand may have played in the final confrontation, it wasn't ineffective curses. We also have to consider that perhaps, due to Voldemort's actions in the Forest, Harry's blood protection reverted to its original state where Voldemort can't kill him, and can't even touch him as well.
I definitely agree with this interpretation, HedwigOwl. The curse didn't function properly on Harry, but it did function properly on Voldemort, so the wand was clearly able to produce a functional curse.


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  #1513  
Old June 17th, 2012, 10:30 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Time for a new version!


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