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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4



 
 
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  #661  
Old March 26th, 2011, 9:14 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
Severus was entirely wrong in getting involved in the DEs. He was wrong for participating in their activities, to whatever extent, both at Hogwarts and after leaving. But, once something important enough occurred, i.e., Lily's life having been put in danger by his own actions, Severus turned away entirely and devoted the rest of his life to trying to make up for his wrongs.

IMO, it reflects very poorly on Snape that it was only "important enough" when it affected him personally. The murders of other innocent people, apart from Lily, did not matter to him.


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  #662  
Old March 26th, 2011, 10:52 pm
LyraLovegood  Female.gif LyraLovegood is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Severus was in the Shack, under the Invisibilty Cloak, long enough to hear the evidence that Pettigrew was the guilty party, not Sirius & Lupin. And as a expert in the Dark Arts, he should have known the difference between believing a truthful, though barely plausible, story, and a true Confundus charm. I believe he knew the truth at that time, but still wanted to see Sirius punished by the Dementors. Not because he still believed that Sirius was guilty of betraying Lily and of killing Peter + however many Muggles it was, but for tormenting him during their Hogwarts student years IMO.


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Last edited by LyraLovegood; March 26th, 2011 at 10:55 pm.
  #663  
Old March 27th, 2011, 12:36 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
To start out with, IMO, if James Potter could have gotten out of rescuing Severus from Lupin, he would have. But, had Severus been attacked, at the least it would have meant the exposure of the Marauders' little escapades -- and, an end to them, as well as their facing some type of investigation and possible punishment for being unregistered Anamagi. At the worst, if Severus had been killed, Sirius and Lupin would probably both have ended up in Azkaban...Lupin for killing him, Sirius as an accessory -- you know, guilt by association. So, I don’t think James had a choice but to rescue him and, by doing so, saving his own and his friends’ butts.

Could someone explain to me the difference in Severus' spying on the Marauders because he thought they were up to no good (which they were, sneaking a fully transformed werewolf out and running through the countryside with him), and Harry's spying on Draco? They both had their suspicions and acted upon them. Neither was totally right or wrong to do so. They were teenage boys and were doing what teenage boys do...following their gut instinct instead of thinking logically.

I keep seeing Sirius and Lupin being referred to as "innocent" in regards to Severus' wanting to turn them over to the Dementors. If I’m not mistaken, not only Severus, but the entire Wizarding World…even Lupin, up to the time he saw Pettigrew on the Marauder’s Map…thought Sirius had killed Pettigrew and a dozen Muggles, the crime he’d been sent to Azkaban for. And, they also thought he’d been the one who’d betrayed the Potters to Voldemort and caused Lily and James to be killed.

Severus was bringing Lupin his wolf’s bane potion when he saw the Marauder’s Map on his desk and that Lupin was headed for the Shrieking Shack. He knew, obviously, that Lupin hadn’t taken his potion and would be transforming. Then, when he enters the room he sees:
  • Sirius Black -- escaped convict, murderer, and betrayer of Lily (as far as he knew at the time).
  • Remus Lupin -- Hogwarts’ teacher, making nice with said escaped convict.
  • Three students -- one of which he’d vowed to protect (and who also happened to be Lily’s son), who appeared to be confunded and spouting gibberish about Sirius being innocent
Given that Severus had “sold his soul” to Dumbledore to protect Lily’s life after making his own mistake in carrying the Prophecy to Voldemort (which was wrong, but, IMO, was not a direct cause of Lily’s death, like betraying the position of Secret Keeper was), and seeing the person he thought was responsible and the rest of the ensemble in the room, Severus lost it. Plain and simple. I’m not sure how much restraint I would have had in his situation -- standing there with a wand pointed at the man who I thought had been responsible for the death of someone I loved so deeply…being turned over to the Dementors might have been the least of his worries.

Yes, Severus threatened to turn Sirius and Lupin over to the Dementors, after Sirius had taunted him and belittled him just the way he’d done years before. However, as someone accurately pointed out earlier, when given the chance, Severus did not do so, but took the stricken Sirius and Harry (on stretchers and not like puppets on strings with their heads being bounced off a rock ceiling) back to the castle.

I’ve said this many, many times before, but, just for the record, here goes again: Severus Snape was a flawed individual. He was not perfect. He made mistakes…really terrible ones. But, like Dumbledore and Regulus Black before him, when someone he loved was affected, it became a turning point in his life. Severus did turn his life around and spent a lot more years trying to do good than time he’d spent as a DE.

Where is the evidence that James would have got out of rescuing Snape?? We are given nothing in canon to believe that he would do so and the canon we do have indicates he did not want the prank to succeed. To say he would not have saved Snape is wrong IMO and diminishes the fact that James risked his life to help Snape when he was trying to get to him. If we accept that Snapes life was at risk as has been pointed out already in this thread then so was James. I seriously doubt James was only worried about their escapades being made public he was IMO more worried about his friend Remus and Snape. To diminish what James did by saying he was worried about punishment is not canon IMO. Again why doesn't Snape cop flak for being the one in the wrong as not only was he himself breaking several rules by trying to expose Remus (he was being protected by the School, wandering out to the Forbidden Forest) and also for being a hypocrite in that he was breaking the rules he was trying to get the Marauders expelled for! If they were breaking the rules so was Snape.

The difference was spite and personal gain. Snape wanted the Marauders gone because IMO he was jealous of them and wanted everyone else to see them the way he did and he wanted them away from Lily so he had no competition. Harry was trying to find out what Draco was up to for good reasons as in he knew he was up to something DE related. Motiviation was the main difference as Harry was focused on the good and Snape on the bad.

Snape was in the Shack long enough to listen to the conversation and see that not only were they Trio just fine they had wands and Remus and Sirius did not. There was conversation and when Snape made his presence known Sirius was happy to be taken back to the Castle as long as Scabbers went along and it was then that Snape went after both of them even Lupin who had done nothing wrong. He tied Lupin up and threatened to drage the wrewolf how is that acceptable?? Would you care to address my point that Snape is a hypocrite in this scene given that he was the actual one responsible for the Potters death and not Sirius or Remus?

IMO it was Snape who started the taunting and belittling NOT Sirius - as I pointed out above that Sirius told Snape he was happy to go to the Castle and Snape who went on about the Dementors. He walked in to a room which held 2 adults wandless and three students with wands listening. Snape did not sell his soul to Dumblefore he made a deal which in all likelihood kept him safe and out of Azkaban. He made the situation in the SS personal and could not want to hurt and humiliate Sirius and Remus enough to make sure they were actually guilty. Also Snape is responsible for the Potters death as he was the direct reason they were targeted because he delivered that Prophecy and nothing can change that. Snape had been a DE long enough to know what LV was going to do with that Prophecy and did not care about who died until he learned who LV targeted.

So if Snape is good for turning his life around why not Sirius or James?? They did far more good than Snape yet are still being referred to as bullies because they were allegedly that way when teenagers?? James Remus and Sirius never joined the DE's and never killed anyone but they are somehow worse than Snape - how does that work??


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  #664  
Old March 27th, 2011, 6:33 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
IMO, it reflects very poorly on Snape that it was only "important enough" when it affected him personally. The murders of other innocent people, apart from Lily, did not matter to him.
Yes, it does. And, as has been stated again and again, no one is giving Severus a bye for that.

He was not perfect, by any means. IMO, he didn't care, at that time, if the Prophecy meant Voldemort was going after another family. It was one of his major character flaws during that period in his life. But, I also feel that he did not recognize this flaw until Dumbledore pointed it out to him when he told him "You disgust me." And, that, IMO, was the beginning of Severus' turn around and redemption.

Once he recognized what he had become, he made an effort to change. Not everyone can take an action just because it's the "right thing to do." I would say it is pretty normal to need a bit of an impetus for us to make major changes in our lives, and I think that is what happened to Severus when he put Lily in danger...his fear for her safety was the driving force, at that time, to go to Dumbledore -- even in fear of his own life or of imprisonment, either of which he was facing by meeting with Dumbledore. But, Lily's safety was more important to him than his freedom or his life. I think that kind of love has to say something positive about young Severus, even though, as I said, he was in no way perfect.

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Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
Where is the evidence that James would have got out of rescuing Snape?? We are given nothing in canon to believe that he would do so and the canon we do have indicates he did not want the prank to succeed. To say he would not have saved Snape is wrong IMO and diminishes the fact that James risked his life to help Snape when he was trying to get to him. If we accept that Snapes life was at risk as has been pointed out already in this thread then so was James. I seriously doubt James was only worried about their escapades being made public he was IMO more worried about his friend Remus and Snape. To diminish what James did by saying he was worried about punishment is not canon IMO. Again why doesn't Snape cop flak for being the one in the wrong as not only was he himself breaking several rules by trying to expose Remus (he was being protected by the School, wandering out to the Forbidden Forest) and also for being a hypocrite in that he was breaking the rules he was trying to get the Marauders expelled for! If they were breaking the rules so was Snape.
I disagree. Yes, he was worried about Remus and Sirius and the "prank" that Sirius had set up. But, to say that James was putting his own life in danger, IMO, is an overstatement. James was used to running around with Lupin while he was a fully transformed werewolf. What would have put him in anymore danger just because he was going to "rescue" Severus?

Where in canon does it say that James went to save Severus out of the goodness of his heart? I really do not see any indication in canon that James had any concerns about Severus well-being other than where it directly affected him and his friends.

Yes, Severus was out after hours. There was certainly enough rule-breaking to go around. But, if we did a comparison list, I feel the rule-breaking on Severus' side compared to the rule-breaking on the Marauders' side, would be negligable.

As you asked for canon, I would, too: where does it state that Severus' intention was to get the Marauders expelled? Is there a statement by anyone other than a Marauder to this effect?

And, I stand by my statement. If Severus had been going into that tunnel to face a werewolf that was in no way connected to James, I do not believe that James would have lifted a finger to save him.

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The difference was spite and personal gain. Snape wanted the Marauders gone because IMO he was jealous of them and wanted everyone else to see them the way he did and he wanted them away from Lily so he had no competition. .
I'm sure he did, and I'm sure he was. They'd been a very negative (to say the least) part of his school experience from the first ride on the Hogwarts Express. I would have wanted them gone...anyone who is a constant target of bullying wants the bullies gone. It would also have been hard, IMO, for Severus not to feel threatened by James. He even told Lily that James fancied her. For an adolescent boy who is unsure of himself, unattractive, poor, not athletic, and not popular, I'm sure Severus perceived rich, handsome, athletic, popular James Potter as a definite threat to him where Lily was concerned. James couldn’t help being those things mentioned, but, that did not lessen the feelings of inadequacy that Severus seemed to have when it came to James.

This was not an emotionally healthy state, but, I think we see enough of young Severus to know that he suffered from an extreme lack of self-esteem. If he'd been a bit more sure of himself, it might have made a huge difference in his relationship with Lily and he might not have been such an easy target for James and Co. But, he had all of his emotional eggs in one basket, and that was his love for Lily. I don't think he could see a problem with that. It had worked for them for several years.

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Harry was trying to find out what Draco was up to for good reasons as in he knew he was up to something DE related. Motiviation was the main difference as Harry was focused on the good and Snape on the bad.
Harry did not know that Draco was up to something DE-related, he only assumed that based on his own feelings, and, Harry had been mistaken before...like thinking that Severus was trying to steal the Sorcerers Stone, among other things. Harry was not totally driven by "pure" intentions in all of his actions anymore than any other character in the series. Harry had his own personal agenda with Draco from the beginning, as well. Just because it is Harry doing something does not automatically make it good anymore than something being automatically bad just because Severus is doing it.

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Snape was in the Shack long enough to listen to the conversation and see that not only were they Trio just fine they had wands and Remus and Sirius did not. There was conversation and when Snape made his presence known Sirius was happy to be taken back to the Castle as long as Scabbers went along and it was then that Snape went after both of them even Lupin who had done nothing wrong. He tied Lupin up and threatened to drage the wrewolf how is that acceptable??
I don't feel, in the emotionally charged state he was in at finding Sirius and Lupin together, especially since he'd warned Dumbledore about Lupin's loyalties, that Severus was able to make totally rational conclusions any more than Harry would have if Severus had been able to yell, "Dumbledore had me kill him because he was already dying and didn't want to be tortured by Bella or Greyback," during FotP.

I seriously doubt that he took Sirius' and Lupin's statements about Pettigrew as very truthful. He would probably have considered them a ruse that the two were pulling on vulnerable children...and seemed to be succeeding with. I also doubt that he thought Sirius would really go quietly back to the castle and to Azkaban.

Sirius was the first wizard ever to break out of Azkaban. Did Severus think he could hold on to him and Lupin and bring the three (possibly confunded) students along without the possibility of Sirius getting away?

Besides, I don't think he had all that much time to consider everything. He came upon what he evaluated as a dangerous situation and took steps to control it. Sirius greeting him with his pet name would hardly have added warmth to the reunion, and Lupin accusing Severus of reacting to a boyhood grudge, not knowing he was reacting to having caught the person he thought betrayed Lily to her death, did not make things any better.

During the entire episode, though, Severus did no physical harm to either Sirius or Lupin, yet, on the return trip through the tunnel, Sirius did not make any effort to keep Severus' head from bumping the top of the tunnel.

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Would you care to address my point that Snape is a hypocrite in this scene given that he was the actual one responsible for the Potters death and not Sirius or Remus?
Yes, I'll be glad to.

Severus carried a Prophecy which could have referred to any couple. We do not know that he was aware that Lily was pregnant or that her child might be the one mentioned. I'm not going into whether he cared about any other child/person, as it is the Potters we are talking about.

Once Severus realized what he had set into motion, he took responsibility and went to Voldemort to try to secure Lily’s safety. When he could not be sure that Voldemort would guarantee it, he went to Dumbledore. Things were done by the Order to ensure the Potters' safety, including them moving around quite a bit (as per canon). I would say that when Harry was born that was when they were settled into Godric's Hollow.

Severus was probably the one carrying information to Dumbledore about Voldemort's efforts to find the Potters, as we know he was acting as a spy after the hilltop scene. When it became apparent that Voldemort was closing in on them, Dumbledore suggested the Fidelius Charm. As far as everyone knew, including Severus, Sirius Black was the Secret Keeper and was the one who betrayed the Potters' whereabouts to Voldemort. Even Lupin thought this, and didn't question it until he saw Pettigrew on the Marauders' Map.

To break it down to a simpler version:

1. Severus carried the Prophecy which, eventually, put Lily in danger. He did not do this with the intent of putting her in danger, though. (And, no, he did not consider the consequences to others.)
2. Severus found out Lily was in danger and made every effort to protect her. Even though they were no longer "best friends," Severus still loved Lily enough to put himself at great personal risk (both from Voldemort and from, he thought, Dumbledore) to try to protect her.
3. The Potters were betrayed by their Secret Keeper -- who everyone thought was their Best Friend, Sirius Black.
4. Voldemort found the Potters and killed Lily and James.
5. If the Secret Keeper (who was thought to be Sirius) had not given away the location of their hiding place: "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!"
6. It was the Secret Keeper, who we all now know was Wormtail, who was directly responsible for the Potters' deaths by exposing their secret location, not the person who carried the initial prophecy.

Severus, IMO, took responsibility onto himself for doing that and thus went about trying to set it right by going first to Voldemort and then to Dumbledore. But, his carrying of the Prophecy was an indirect action. Therefore, I do not see any hypocracy, since he had assumed responsibility for his actions and tried to make amends for them.

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IMO it was Snape who started the taunting and belittling NOT Sirius - as I pointed out above that Sirius told Snape he was happy to go to the Castle and Snape who went on about the Dementors. He walked in to a room which held 2 adults wandless and three students with wands listening. Snape did not sell his soul to Dumblefore he made a deal which in all likelihood kept him safe and out of Azkaban. He made the situation in the SS personal and could not want to hurt and humiliate Sirius and Remus enough to make sure they were actually guilty. Also Snape is responsible for the Potters death as he was the direct reason they were targeted because he delivered that Prophecy and nothing can change that. Snape had been a DE long enough to know what LV was going to do with that Prophecy and did not care about who died until he learned who LV targeted.
As I pointed out above, I don't think Severus would have believed anything that Sirius or Lupin said at that point.

When asked what he would do in return for the guarantee of Lily’s safety, Severus answered: “Anything.“ He did not know what Dumbledore was going to ask of him, and he did not question or bargain. He just promised to do anything as long as Lily was kept safe. There is nothing here that suggests Severus felt he was staying out of Azkaban. Quite the contrary, “Anything,” means that Dumbledore could have told him he’d have to go to Azkaban, that he’d have to undergo interrogation and give information about Voldemort, and so on….”Anything” literally means all of those and anything else Dumbledore might come up with.

As far as I'm concerned, as we watch the things that Dumbledore asks of Severus throughout the series, Severus did "sell his soul" to him. Dumbledore had almost total control over Severus. Whether it was guilt, loyalty, a determination to make up for past wrongs, or a bit of all of that, Severus never had "a life of his own" after the meeting on the hillside.

I think you contradict yourself when you say that "Snape is responsible for the Potters' deaths" for carrying the Prophecy, then say that he didn't care who died until he learned it was Lily that LV was targeting. The last part, to me, indicates that there was not direct responsibility for the Potters’ deaths, but there is a responsibility for setting things in motion. IMO, there’s a big difference.

Yes, Severus was responsible for carrying the Prophecy which, had he given it any thought, he should have known would lead to someone's death. Yes, this was wrong and he cannot be excused for doing it. But, No, he, IMO, was NOT directly responsible for the Potters' deaths. Wormtail and Voldemort were.

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So if Snape is good for turning his life around why not Sirius or James?? They did far more good than Snape yet are still being referred to as bullies because they were allegedly that way when teenagers?? James Remus and Sirius never joined the DE's and never killed anyone but they are somehow worse than Snape - how does that work??
I don't think I've seen Sirius or Lupin referred to as bullies as adults. I don't see any major change in Sirius' as an adult: he was still all about "adventure for adventure's sake" and even tried to encourage Harry to be so by telling him that's what his father would have done. This is not a very positive thing, IMO. To encourage Harry to risk the life his mother died to save is not something I would consider a mature and caring act.

We don't know how James would have turned out, as he was killed. Remus, IMO, was a good guy who felt a lot of guilt for just sitting by and letting things happen as a teenager. He did a lot of good things as an adult, and had a lot of his own ghosts to deal with. But, all in all, I think he really tried, and he died a hero's death fighting Voldemort and his forces...along side his wife, Tonks.

I'm not sure of all the good things James and Sirius did as members of the Order as we are not given any more details about this than we are about Severus' being a murderer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyraLovegood
Severus was in the Shack, under the Invisibilty Cloak, long enough to hear the evidence that Pettigrew was the guilty party, not Sirius & Lupin. And as a expert in the Dark Arts, he should have known the difference between believing a truthful, though barely plausible, story, and a true Confundus charm.
See above statement on the action when Severus entered the room in the Shrieking Shack.


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I believe he knew the truth at that time, but still wanted to see Sirius punished by the Dementors. Not because he still believed that Sirius was guilty of betraying Lily and of killing Peter + however many Muggles it was, but for tormenting him during their Hogwarts student years IMO.
I couldn’t disagree more. IMO, Severus caps-lock rage was caused by seeing the man he held responsible for thwarting all of the efforts to protect Lily’s life, and, who he felt had betrayed her to Voldemort. I don’t think he cared about the Muggles or Pettigrew at that moment, but, Sirius was considered a dangerous murderer, and, I feel Severus entered the room with that in mind as well.

Given the depth of the emotional scars left by the bullying by the Marauders (and mentioned in canon by Dumbledore), I’m sure that had some influence, but, IMO, not nearly as much as getting revenge on the person Severus thought responsible for Lily’s betrayal.

(It’s a shame that there was such bitterness between Severus and Lupin. I think that Lupin had matured so much by PoA, that, had he and Severus ever been able to just sit down and talk, Lupin would probably have apologized for not taking more action to deter James’ and Sirius’ activities. I think, once that was out of the way, the two of them could have worked together and been a lot more cordial than they were. But, we’re back to the “deep scars” thing again…some are just too deep to heal.)


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  #665  
Old March 27th, 2011, 1:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
In that case, Snape repeatedly targetting Harry and Neville constitute bullying, IMO. And I'm aware that Snape had his "reasons" for disliking Harry, but I believe he took advantage of a position of authority to bully Harry as payback for James' misdeeds.
Neville was a danger to himself and the other students. I really don't think Neville would have attracted Snape's displeasure if he wasn't so incompetent,and so I don't see him actually targetting Neville. However, Snape's method of dealing with Neville is not good teaching practice imo, and was counter productive in Neville's case.

As for Harry, Snape has so many conflicting emotions were Harry was concerned, and I agree that he didn't deal with them very well which resulted in him treating Harry very unfairly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
Severus was in the Shack, under the Invisibilty Cloak, long enough to hear the evidence that Pettigrew was the guilty party, not Sirius & Lupin.
I have to disagree here. Snape only overhears the part were Lupin explains, how his friends became Animagi to keep him company when he transformed; and about the so called "werewolf prank". There is no indication in the part of the conversation Snape overhears that Peter was the guilty and Sirius innocent.



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I believe he knew the truth at that time, but still wanted to see Sirius punished by the Dementors. Not because he still believed that Sirius was guilty of betraying Lily and of killing Peter + however many Muggles it was, but for tormenting him during their Hogwarts student years IMO.
I think DH makes clear that Snape's love for Lily was his strongest motivation. I see the scene in the Shack as classic misdirection from JKR. I think JKR wrote it very cleverly in such a way that we are meant to think that it is all about one thing, Snape's schoolboy grudge. However, on looking back at the scene post DH are supposed to see it in a new and different light. Like so many scenes involving Snape,imo.


  #666  
Old March 27th, 2011, 3:39 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

reading the above comments about the werewolf incident and people changing after something major happened makes me wonder if the werewolf incident didn't happen after SWM. That would explain what happened to make James change and stop being a bully.I bet after that happened he went to Lily and apoligised for being such a jerk and that added to Snape's opinion that he did it for self glorification.
He probably thought James told her about the werewolf incident and made himself out to be a right hero saving poor Severous. That would have infuriated Snape the most James making him out to be a coward to Lily.
I think what everyone needs to remember about all the charactors is that they all made mistakes. It is not the mistakes they made that defined them, it is how they made up for their mistakes and lived their lives afterward.


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  #667  
Old March 27th, 2011, 4:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
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But, I also feel that he did not recognize this flaw until Dumbledore pointed it out to him when he told him "You disgust me." And, that, IMO, was the beginning of Severus' turn around and redemption.
He didn't recognise that destroying lives was wrong? Limiting it to just the situation with Lily - he loved her, but didn't recognise that Lily would be heartbroken if her husband and child were murdered? IMO, not recognising something like that is a huge flaw in Snape's character.

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Once he recognized what he had become, he made an effort to change. Not everyone can take an action just because it's the "right thing to do."
And yet, most of the Order members joined without first supporting Voldemort and having an evil deed come back to bite them.

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I disagree. Yes, he was worried about Remus and Sirius and the "prank" that Sirius had set up. But, to say that James was putting his own life in danger, IMO, is an overstatement. James was used to running around with Lupin while he was a fully transformed werewolf. What would have put him in anymore danger just because he was going to "rescue" Severus?
James was always in his stag form around Lupin at full moon. He would not have fit down the tunnel as Prongs, he had to go in human form.

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Yes, Severus was out after hours. There was certainly enough rule-breaking to go around. But, if we did a comparison list, I feel the rule-breaking on Severus' side compared to the rule-breaking on the Marauders' side, would be negligable.
Would the same apply to the Marauders' school-rule breaking compared to Snape's membership of a criminal organisation and spying for his criminal master?

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As you asked for canon, I would, too: where does it state that Severus' intention was to get the Marauders expelled? Is there a statement by anyone other than a Marauder to this effect?
Why is a statement from Sirius or Remus less trustworthy than one from Bellatrix? I can't see the reasoning there.

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1. Severus carried the Prophecy which, eventually, put Lily in danger. He did not do this with the intent of putting her in danger, though. (And, no, he did not consider the consequences to others.)
Why is it less wrong because he did not know who would die because of his information? Causing the murder of a stranger is just as wrong as causing the murder of a loved one, IMO. It is not a less evil thing to do just because he didn't know Lily would be the target.

I think Snape knew very well what would happen to the child the prophecy mentioned. He had been a DE long enough to know what happened to opponents of Voldemort. IMO, he lacked empathy for others, at this time in his life, and simply did not care that people would die because of his actions.

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As far as I'm concerned, as we watch the things that Dumbledore asks of Severus throughout the series, Severus did "sell his soul" to him. Dumbledore had almost total control over Severus. Whether it was guilt, loyalty, a determination to make up for past wrongs, or a bit of all of that, Severus never had "a life of his own" after the meeting on the hillside.
Snape had a job in a prestigious wizarding school. He had an opportunity to make friends, and do as he wished in the summers, prior to GoF. It was a lot more than Lily and James had, because of the prophecy Snape ran to his master with. IMO, Snape got off lightly, for a Death Eater.

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Yes, Severus was responsible for carrying the Prophecy which, had he given it any thought, he should have known would lead to someone's death. Yes, this was wrong and he cannot be excused for doing it. But, No, he, IMO, was NOT directly responsible for the Potters' deaths. Wormtail and Voldemort were.
Snape did not know who would be targeted, but that does not mean he bears no responsibilty for the Potters' deaths. It does not matter who would be targeted, someone was going to die because of that information, and IMO, Snape bears partial responsibility, just as Wormtail does.

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I don't think I've seen Sirius or Lupin referred to as bullies as adults. I don't see any major change in Sirius' as an adult: he was still all about "adventure for adventure's sake" and even tried to encourage Harry to be so by telling him that's what his father would have done. This is not a very positive thing, IMO. To encourage Harry to risk the life his mother died to save is not something I would consider a mature and caring act.
Sirius broke out of Azkaban to protect Harry. He took his responsibility as godfather seriously. In OotP, he acted recklessly - but this is a man who spent twelve years in a hellish prison, and is now under virtual house arrest in his hated childhood home. Sirius was not "all about adventure" in GoF, when he warned Harry to stay inside after hours, to not go about alone, etc. IMO, encouraging Harry to be reckless was a by-product of being trapped at 12GP.


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We don't know how James would have turned out, as he was killed.
We saw that James joined the Order of the Phoenix when he left school. He never, ever joined Voldemort, or helped the DEs. He fought against Voldemort without having his misdeeds put a loved one in mortal peril. His first choice was always to oppose Voldemort.

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I'm not sure of all the good things James and Sirius did as members of the Order as we are not given any more details about this than we are about Severus' being a murderer.
"born to those who have thrice defied him". James, together with Lily, defied Voldemort three times by the age of twenty. Not a lot of information, but they were not sitting around doing nothing. They were active members of the Order until they had to protect their child.

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I couldn’t disagree more. IMO, Severus caps-lock rage was caused by seeing the man he held responsible for thwarting all of the efforts to protect Lily’s life, and, who he felt had betrayed her to Voldemort. I don’t think he cared about the Muggles or Pettigrew at that moment, but, Sirius was considered a dangerous murderer, and, I feel Severus entered the room with that in mind as well.
Yes, he entered the room with a suspected murderer. And stood listening to the conversation for several minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Neville was a danger to himself and the other students. I really don't think Neville would have attracted Snape's displeasure if he wasn't so incompetent,and so I don't see him actually targetting Neville. However, Snape's method of dealing with Neville is not good teaching practice imo, and was counter productive in Neville's case.
It was Snape's responsibility as Potions teacher to teach all the students fairly. Not just those who were clever, but didn't volunteer information in class, and were not related to childhood rivals. He was the adult, the person in a position of responsibility in his classroom. He does not get a bye on humiliating a student because he considered that student not good enough. Also, on learning that he was a teenager's worst fear - a teenager whose parents had been tortured to insanity, I think that Snape should have been ashamed of himself rather than taking it out on Neville. Neville did not choose for his Boggart to be Snape, after all.

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I have to disagree here. Snape only overhears the part were Lupin explains, how his friends became Animagi to keep him company when he transformed; and about the so called "werewolf prank". There is no indication in the part of the conversation Snape overhears that Peter was the guilty and Sirius innocent.
However, he stood listening to a conversation. He did not take immediate action to protect students, he stood long enough to see that the Trio were armed, and were not Confunded. He stood long enough to hear that some kind of explanation was going on.


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  #668  
Old March 27th, 2011, 4:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by storyteller View Post
reading the above comments about the werewolf incident and people changing after something major happened makes me wonder if the werewolf incident didn't happen after SWM. That would explain what happened to make James change and stop being a bully.I bet after that happened he went to Lily and apoligised for being such a jerk and that added to Snape's opinion that he did it for self glorification.
He probably thought James told her about the werewolf incident and made himself out to be a right hero saving poor Severous. That would have infuriated Snape the most James making him out to be a coward to Lily.
We know the werewolf incident happened before SWM, as we see in the Pensieve memories in DH that Lily mentions it to Snape while they are still friends.

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ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
It was Snape's responsibility as Potions teacher to teach all the students fairly. Not just those who were clever, but didn't volunteer information in class, and were not related to childhood rivals. He was the adult, the person in a position of responsibility in his classroom. He does not get a bye on humiliating a student because he considered that student not good enough.
I did say that Snape's methods in dealing with Neville were not in my opinion good teaching practice, and were actually counter productive.


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However, he stood listening to a conversation. He did not take immediate action to protect students, he stood long enough to see that the Trio were armed, and were not Confunded. He stood long enough to hear that some kind of explanation was going on.
I think Snape realised the students weren't in any immediate danger whilst Lupin was talking. Maybe he thought he might learn something regarding the reason for the strange explanation, especially if he thought it may be part of an elaborate plan involving Voldemort, who he knows is alive in some form.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; March 27th, 2011 at 4:23 pm.
  #669  
Old March 27th, 2011, 4:29 pm
gabriele87  Undisclosed.gif gabriele87 is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Regarding the comments that James didn't risk much when he saved Snape: I was under the impression that James and his friends didn't become Animagi until their fifth year, and that James saved Snape before their fifth year. So James wouldn't have been able to transform to save himself. He knew what Lupin was, and he risked his life by going down their to save Snape.


  #670  
Old March 27th, 2011, 5:16 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I did say that Snape's methods in dealing with Neville were not in my opinion good teaching practice, and were actually counter productive.
IMO, saying that Snape's behaviour was because Neville was "incompetent" seems a lot like holding a teenager responsible for the behaviour of a grown man.

Quote:
I think Snape realised the students weren't in any immediate danger whilst Lupin was talking. Maybe he thought he might learn something regarding the reason for the strange explanation, especially if he thought it may be part of an elaborate plan involving Voldemort, who he knows is alive in some form.

And yet, Snape chose to reveal his presence dramatically during the conversation, and pointed his wand at Lupin, rather than at Sirius, the suspected murderer.


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  #671  
Old March 27th, 2011, 6:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
IMO, saying that Snape's behaviour was because Neville was "incompetent" seems a lot like holding a teenager responsible for the behaviour of a grown man.
Just to clarify things, I was not blaming Neville for Snape's behavior towards him. What I was trying to say was as I see it, Snape didn't "target" Neville for such attention, but reacted to Neville's incompetence in his classes, and I see a big difference between "targeting" and "reacting". "Targeting" to me is deciding in advance to single someone out for particular treatment, whilst "reacting" is a response to an incident.

To me Snape is a teacher who doesn't suffer students who are incapable of following simple instructions, and Neville unfortunately is such a student and we see this in some of his other classes also. Snape's way of dealing with such students is, in my opinion not particularly good teaching practice and in Neville's case was very counter productive.


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And yet, Snape chose to reveal his presence dramatically during the conversation, and pointed his wand at Lupin, rather than at Sirius, the suspected murderer.
I think Snape pointed his wand at Lupin, because he thought he had been aiding Sirius and he had a wand whilst Sirius didn't.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; March 27th, 2011 at 6:51 pm.
  #672  
Old March 27th, 2011, 6:56 pm
slytherin001  Female.gif slytherin001 is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

I don't think Snape just "reacted" to Neville's incompetence. IMO, Snape knew how much Neville feared him, and he took every opportunity to exploit that fear. Which to me, is similar to targeting Neville. Snape targeted Gryffindors while he turned a blind eye towards his Slytherins. Why should Neville be any different? Indeed, I think Snape targeted Neville, IMHO.


  #673  
Old March 27th, 2011, 7:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Just to clarify things, I was not blaming Neville for Snape's behavior towards him. What I was trying to say was as I see it, Snape didn't "target" Neville for such attention, but reacted to Neville's incompetence in his classes, and I see a big difference between "targeting" and "reacting". "Targeting" to me is deciding in advance to single someone out for particular treatment, whilst "reacting" is a response to an incident.

To me Snape is a teacher who doesn't suffer students who are incapable of following simple instructions, and Neville unfortunately is such a student and we see this in some of his other classes also. Snape's way of dealing with such students is, in my opinion not particularly good teaching practice and in Neville's case was very counter productive.
The way I see it, I think Snape did target Neville, much in the same way that he targeted Harry (although his behavior toward Harry is much more complex). Perhaps Neville didn't have the necessary skills to be really good at potion-making; but perhaps he would have been better had Snape not badgered him instead of trying to help him. Potion textbooks aren't perfect, and it seems a subtle art. Snape himself made corrections to his Advanced Potions book, and Hermione, who was quite adept at following instructions and being careful, was unable to brew an acceptable Draught of the Living Dead from the textbook.

It's not just a matter of instructions...and we know Snape is aware of that; yet he singles out students who are struggling, refuses to help them, and then mocks them when they fail to get it right. Not to mention that Crabbe & Goyle often do miserably in potions, yet are not called out and mocked. I don't see how Snape's behavior toward Neville and Harry can be interpreted in any other way except targeting.


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  #674  
Old March 27th, 2011, 7:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by gabriele87 View Post
Regarding the comments that James didn't risk much when he saved Snape: I was under the impression that James and his friends didn't become Animagi until their fifth year, and that James saved Snape before their fifth year. So James wouldn't have been able to transform to save himself. He knew what Lupin was, and he risked his life by going down their to save Snape.
We are not given a specific timeline for the werewolf incident, but, it is my understanding that it took place during their Fifth Year in school, which means James would have been able to transform into "Prongs."

The main point of my statement, however was not that James didn't risk his life...I'm not sure if he did or not...but, that, had the werewolf not been in any way linked to him or his friends, IMO, James would not have stopped Severus from encountering it. James, I am convinced, acted only because he and his friends would have faced dire consequences if Severus had been injured or killed.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
He didn't recognise that destroying lives was wrong? Limiting it to just the situation with Lily - he loved her, but didn't recognise that Lily would be heartbroken if her husband and child were murdered? IMO, not recognising something like that is a huge flaw in Snape's character.
I thought I was very clear in stating that Severus had several major character flaws during that point in his life. If I haven't, I will state in again:
  • Severus Snape was a flawed individual, and during his last years of school he hung around with some unsavory characters. About 3-4 years after that he got involved with a group who sought the domination of Muggles and Muggle-borns by purebloods. It was wrong of him to hang around with fledgling DEs, to join that organization, and to provide any support to its members.
  • During this time he overheard and carried a prophecy which concerned a baby to be born at the end of July who would be able to vanquish Voldemort.
  • It was wrong of him to carry this prophecy and to not care about the people it pertained to, no matter who they were.
  • It was wrong of him not to think of the lives of Lily's family as well as hers when he heard her child had been targeted by Voldemort. It was wrong of Severus to offer to trade that child for Lily's safety.
But, IMO, based, again, on Bella's statements, Severus distanced himself from the "dirty work" and concentrated mostly on spying and providing information to Voldemort. Hence, Voldemort's idea to plant him at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore. Yes, Severus is guilty by association with the DEs. Yes, this was another character flaw.

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And yet, most of the Order members joined without first supporting Voldemort and having an evil deed come back to bite them.
We don't know for sure why most Order members joined. Was it peer pressure on Gryffindors and other House members to join the Order? Would it have been "socially unacceptable" not to? Or, did James and Sirius join because it offered them yet another opportunity for "adventure for adventures' sake"? We are not given their reasons for joining so we don't know for sure. Some may have had family members killed. Some may have joined because they wanted to fight Voldemort. Sirius may have joined just to irritate his family...they'd already disowned him, so another shot at them wouldn't have hurt. We really aren't given motivations for "most" of them.


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James was always in his stag form around Lupin at full moon. He would not have fit down the tunnel as Prongs, he had to go in human form.
James did not automatically change into a stag during the full moon. He was an Animagi, not a werewolf. Also, he knew the tunnel and Shrieking Shack well from the group's adventures there, so he was in less danger than Severus. He would have known Lupin's habits, where Madam Pomphrey kept him in the Shack, etc. So, he wouldn't have just been blundering around like someone who knew nothing.

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Would the same apply to the Marauders' school-rule breaking compared to Snape's membership of a criminal organisation and spying for his criminal master?
The Marauders' school rule breaking was during school. Severus' being a DE and spying for Voldemort was after they'd left Hogwarts. Apples and oranges.

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Why is a statement from Sirius or Remus less trustworthy than one from Bellatrix? I can't see the reasoning there.
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here either. Bellatrix statement was made as a direct affront to Severus at Spinner's End. She was actually a DE and knew that Severus was absent when the DEs were in action. She taunted him about this.

Lupin's statements about Severus wanting them to be expelled would be based on his perception and on speculation, not on what was really in Severus' mind.

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Why is it less wrong because he did not know who would die because of his information? Causing the murder of a stranger is just as wrong as causing the murder of a loved one, IMO. It is not a less evil thing to do just because he didn't know Lily would be the target.
I didn't say it was less "evil." It was equally wrong to give Voldemort information that would set him on a hunt for any family.

My point here is that it was not a direct action -- Severus might have suspected what Voldemort would do with the information from the Prophecy, but he did not know for sure. He might have just cast it aside and not believed anyone had the power to vanquish him, especially a child. Or, he might have done what he did, go after the family fitting the description in the Prophecy.

Wormtail, on the other hand, by providing Voldemort with the Potter's location knew exactly why he wanted it and what he was going to do with it. He knew that Voldemort was setting out, not to kill just anyone, but to kill Harry Potter, and, if need be, his parents.

So, I'm saying that Wormtail's betrayal as Secret Keeper was worse than Severus carrying the prophecy. One was a direct action against a known target, the other was general informtion that might or might not have been used.

And, once again, when it became clear that he had set in motion actions that put Lily in danger, Severus stepped forward and took responsibility, at risk to himself, to protect her -- and, eventually her family.

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I think Snape knew very well what would happen to the child the prophecy mentioned. He had been a DE long enough to know what happened to opponents of Voldemort. IMO, he lacked empathy for others, at this time in his life, and simply did not care that people would die because of his actions.
Yes. Snape probably would have guessed what Voldemort would do, if he'd given it much thought. I don't think he did. I think he was so glad to have something to take back to Voldemort that might win him favor -- especially if there was grumbling from Bella and the likes about his lack of participation -- I don't think he gave the consequences for the subject of the Prophecy any thought.

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Snape had a job in a prestigious wizarding school. He had an opportunity to make friends, and do as he wished in the summers, prior to GoF. It was a lot more than Lily and James had, because of the prophecy Snape ran to his master with. IMO, Snape got off lightly, for a Death Eater.
That is your opinion. I see it differently.

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Snape did not know who would be targeted, but that does not mean he bears no responsibilty for the Potters' deaths. It does not matter who would be targeted, someone was going to die because of that information, and IMO, Snape bears partial responsibility, just as Wormtail does.
I didn't say he didn't bear any responsibility. He bears the same responsibility he would have if it had been the Longbottoms who were targeted and killed. He carried the initial Prophecy which set the wheels in motion.

Wormtail knew, absolutely, who Voldemort was looking for. Wormtail had taken on the position of Secret Keeper (which must have been like winning the Lottery...imagine, being about to have the very information that LV was looking for and being able to hand the Potters over to him with practically no effort). Wormtail was a trusted friend of the Potters and betrayed that friendship, resulting in their deaths.

I see a definite distinction between carrying a Prophecy which could have pertained to a number of people and carrying specific information, gained as a trusted friend, and knowing that the information you were giving Voldemort was going to result in your friends' deaths. One was a non-specific, indirect action. The other was an intentional, specific, direct action taken against friends.

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Sirius broke out of Azkaban to protect Harry. He took his responsibility as godfather seriously. In OotP, he acted recklessly - but this is a man who spent twelve years in a hellish prison, and is now under virtual house arrest in his hated childhood home. Sirius was not "all about adventure" in GoF, when he warned Harry to stay inside after hours, to not go about alone, etc. IMO, encouraging Harry to be reckless was a by-product of being trapped at 12GP.
My understanding was that Sirius broke out to catch Wormtail, whose picture he'd seen in the Daily Prophet "Weasley's Win the MoM Funds" article. I have always seen his actions based on getting revenge on Wormtail (which I don't blame him for) and clearing his name. Neither of these pertain to protecting Harry.

Sirius was constantly champing at the bit in Goblet of Fire and having to be told what he'd be risking if he was seen.

You see his encouraging Harry to be reckless as a "by-product" of being shut in at Grimmauld Place. That may be. But, I see it as a continuation of his thirst for adventure and to suggest to Harry that something is what his father would have done is, IMO, putting undue pressure on Harry. Not a mature and caring act.

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We saw that James joined the Order of the Phoenix when he left school. He never, ever joined Voldemort, or helped the DEs. He fought against Voldemort without having his misdeeds put a loved one in mortal peril. His first choice was always to oppose Voldemort.
So did a lot of people. Why does this make James special? I was responding to your statement about all of the good he and Sirius had done. But, we are given no specifics as to what they did. Just being a member of the Order didn't mean that James did or did not do "a lot of good." It just means he was a member of the Order.

Also, there were other witches and wizards who never joined the Order or Voldemort and probably did a lot of good. So, I'm not seeing where we are shown that James and/or Sirius did anything outstanding after they left school.

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"born to those who have thrice defied him". James, together with Lily, defied Voldemort three times by the age of twenty. Not a lot of information, but they were not sitting around doing nothing. They were active members of the Order until they had to protect their child.
This could be interpreted many ways...maybe they just refused three times to join him. Or, maybe it was something more dangerous and confrontational. It is, as you said, not a lot of information. And, I'm not sure if we are given information about what "active members" of the Oder actually did. Were they like Aurors, or soldiers, or security police?


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Yes, he entered the room with a suspected murderer. And stood listening to the conversation for several minutes.
I'm not sure the point here.


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  #675  
Old March 27th, 2011, 7:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by slytherin001 View Post
I don't think Snape just "reacted" to Neville's incompetence. IMO, Snape knew how much Neville feared him, and he took every opportunity to exploit that fear. Which to me, is similar to targeting Neville. Snape targeted Gryffindors while he turned a blind eye towards his Slytherins. Why should Neville be any different? Indeed, I think Snape targeted Neville, IMHO.
I'm not sure Snape did know exactly how much Neville feared him, at least until PoA. Also, apart from Harry, Neville and Hermione, I don't recall Snape being particularly mean to any individual Gryffindors in Potions classes, and there were many others in the class. Although, I do think he showed a bias to his own House, yet he never gives them any House points as far as I remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Perhaps Neville didn't have the necessary skills to be really good at potion-making; but perhaps he would have been better had Snape not badgered him instead of trying to help him.
Oh, I agree Snape didn't use good strategies when dealing with Neville.

Quote:
Not to mention that Crabbe & Goyle often do miserably in potions, yet are not called out and mocked.
This is true, but from what I undersood, they were not nearly as bad as Neville who melted more cauldrons than Harry had hot dinners.


  #676  
Old March 27th, 2011, 9:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I'm not sure Snape did know exactly how much Neville feared him, at least until PoA. Also, apart from Harry, Neville and Hermione, I don't recall Snape being particularly mean to any individual Gryffindors in Potions classes, and there were many others in the class. Although, I do think he showed a bias to his own House, yet he never gives them any House points as far as I remember.


Oh, I agree Snape didn't use good strategies when dealing with Neville.



This is true, but from what I undersood, they were not nearly as bad as Neville who melted more cauldrons than Harry had hot dinners.
Snape is going to be nice to his house because all of their parents are DE and had probably been his friends, which can't be said of any of the Gryffendor's.

I think the big thing with the way Snape treated students is that no matter how hard you fight it, sometimes you just can't help but becoming your parent. That is how Snapes father treated him and that is how he learned you are supposed to relate to children and it had encouraged Snape to get better at everything, why should Neville be any different? He did not take into account that Neville had a different personality and he did not have a good friend like Lily to help him. Sure none of the other students were mean to him, but they didn't seek him out on a regular basis to do things with him.


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  #677  
Old March 27th, 2011, 10:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Perhaps Neville didn't have the necessary skills to be really good at potion-making; but perhaps he would have been better had Snape not badgered him instead of trying to help him. Potion textbooks aren't perfect, and it seems a subtle art. Snape himself made corrections to his Advanced Potions book, and Hermione, who was quite adept at following instructions and being careful, was unable to brew an acceptable Draught of the Living Dead from the textbook.
That's a good point -the textbooks aren't perfect. Also, I agree, Snape should have tried to help Neville - that was what he was there for, as Potions teacher. Yes, I know he was there as a spy, but he was also responsible for the Potions education of sixteen years worth of students, and I don't think they got the best Potions education they could have had. I think it's telling that both Harry and Neville are more relaxed in their Potions OWL practical exam than they ever are in Snape's classroom.

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
But, IMO, based, again, on Bella's statements, Severus distanced himself from the "dirty work" and concentrated mostly on spying and providing information to Voldemort. Hence, Voldemort's idea to plant him at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore. Yes, Severus is guilty by association with the DEs. Yes, this was another character flaw.
Spying isn't dirty work? Passing on information that will get innocent people killed isn't dirty work?

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We don't know for sure why most Order members joined. Was it peer pressure on Gryffindors and other House members to join the Order?
I agree, the Order members joined for a lot of different reasons. However, as far as we know, Snape is the only one who joined Voldemort first, the only one who supported oppression and murder before karma bit him on the backside. I see a difference there.

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James did not automatically change into a stag during the full moon. He was an Animagi, not a werewolf. Also, he knew the tunnel and Shrieking Shack well from the group's adventures there, so he was in less danger than Severus. He would have known Lupin's habits, where Madam Pomphrey kept him in the Shack, etc. So, he wouldn't have just been blundering around like someone who knew nothing.
I'm aware that James was not a werewolf, and had to consciously transform. However, he would not have fit down the tunnel in his stag form. Even knowing the tunnel, he was at risk in human form.

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I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here either. Bellatrix statement was made as a direct affront to Severus at Spinner's End. She was actually a DE and knew that Severus was absent when the DEs were in action. She taunted him about this.

Lupin's statements about Severus wanting them to be expelled would be based on his perception and on speculation, not on what was really in Severus' mind.
As I see it here, Bellatrix's statement is being taken as fact, whereas Lupin must be lying. Why is a fanatic more trustworthy than Lupin?
Bellatrix seems to consider anyone who didn't go to prison for her master a lesser DE. Also, she was not with Snape 24/7 in his DE days. She does not know what Snape did at all times. Plus, Snape himself admits to Dumbledore that he watched murders and chose to do nothing. That is hardly avoiding danger/keeping a low profile.

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I didn't say it was less "evil." It was equally wrong to give Voldemort information that would set him on a hunt for any family.
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So, I'm saying that Wormtail's betrayal as Secret Keeper was worse than Severus carrying the prophecy. One was a direct action against a known target, the other was general informtion that might or might not have been used.
This strikes me as a contradiction.

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So, I'm saying that Wormtail's betrayal as Secret Keeper was worse than Severus carrying the prophecy. One was a direct action against a known target, the other was general informtion that might or might not have been used.
Snape was many things, but he was certainly not stupid, IMO. I think he knew well what Voldemort did to anyone he considered a threat, or anyone who would oppose him. It was quite plain that the information would be used. He wasn't carrying information to a reasonable person, he was carrying it to a crazed megalomaniac, who murdered without compunction.

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I see a definite distinction between carrying a Prophecy which could have pertained to a number of people and carrying specific information, gained as a trusted friend, and knowing that the information you were giving Voldemort was going to result in your friends' deaths. One was a non-specific, indirect action. The other was an intentional, specific, direct action taken against friends.
The only difference I see is that Wormtail knew who would die because of his actions, and Snape did not. Both of them committed a terrible deed that would cost someone their life.

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My understanding was that Sirius broke out to catch Wormtail, whose picture he'd seen in the Daily Prophet "Weasley's Win the MoM Funds" article. I have always seen his actions based on getting revenge on Wormtail (which I don't blame him for) and clearing his name. Neither of these pertain to protecting Harry.
I believe he pointed out in PoA that Wormtail was in a perfect position to hand Harry over if he learned that his master was gaining strength. I don't think any concerned godparent would want a murderer and DE anywhere near their charge.

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Sirius was constantly champing at the bit in Goblet of Fire and having to be told what he'd be risking if he was seen.
He knew that Harry had been entered in a dangerous tournament, that Voldemort may be getting stronger, that Wormtail may have returned to Voldemort. He had plenty reason to be champing at the bit in GoF.

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So did a lot of people. Why does this make James special? I was responding to your statement about all of the good he and Sirius had done. But, we are given no specifics as to what they did. Just being a member of the Order didn't mean that James did or did not do "a lot of good." It just means he was a member of the Order.
It means that he always opposed Voldemort, IMO. It means that he opposed genocide and oppression. Without needing to put someone he loved in mortal peril before he realised these things were wrong.

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This could be interpreted many ways...maybe they just refused three times to join him. Or, maybe it was something more dangerous and confrontational. It is, as you said, not a lot of information. And, I'm not sure if we are given information about what "active members" of the Oder actually did. Were they like Aurors, or soldiers, or security police?
Considering the Order members were being picked off one by one by the DEs during the first war, I think it's safe to say the Order were doing something active and constructive against Voldemort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I'm not sure Snape did know exactly how much Neville feared him, at least until PoA. Also, apart from Harry, Neville and Hermione, I don't recall Snape being particularly mean to any individual Gryffindors in Potions classes, and there were many others in the class. Although, I do think he showed a bias to his own House, yet he never gives them any House points as far as I remember.
Perhaps he didn't know before, but he certainly knew by early in third year that he was the worst fear of a teenager whose parents were tortured to insanity. That doesn't seem to have had any effect on Snape.

He may not have given his House points, but he didn't dock points from his own house, either.


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  #678  
Old March 28th, 2011, 12:17 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I'm not sure Snape did know exactly how much Neville feared him, at least until PoA. Also, apart from Harry, Neville and Hermione, I don't recall Snape being particularly mean to any individual Gryffindors in Potions classes, and there were many others in the class. Although, I do think he showed a bias to his own House, yet he never gives them any House points as far as I remember.
We only see the students in Harry's class, though. He may have targeted other students in other classes as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTart
This is true, but from what I undersood, they were not nearly as bad as Neville who melted more cauldrons than Harry had hot dinners.
I can only recall Neville melting a cauldron once. And Crabbe & Goyle both failed to get "exceeds expectations" to continue potions with Slughorn, so were likely in the same boat as Neville with "acceptable". There were a few times where Harry is upset to notice that Crabbe or Goyle's potions are not any better, or worse, than his own, yet Snape only fails Harry.


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  #679  
Old March 28th, 2011, 12:28 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Remember this is the Snape thread, not the Marauders thread. I'm seeing way too much about James and Sirius at the moment.

Also, a reminder to everyone to make sure they make clear that what they post is an opinion, not the inarguable gospel truth.


  #680  
Old March 28th, 2011, 1:28 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Remember this is the Snape thread, not the Marauders thread. I'm seeing way too much about James and Sirius at the moment.

Also, a reminder to everyone to make sure they make clear that what they post is an opinion, not the inarguable gospel truth.
Amen, sista!

Good point you bring up, HedwigOwl, about the cauldron and the Crabbe & Goyle situation. If I am not mistaken, which I very well may be, since it has been about two years since I last re-read the books, Neville did only melt his cauldron once. Not that it's particularly important to anything though.

But I stand by my opinion that Snape very well targeted particular Gryffindors, if not generally speaking, and that he did target Neville. All IMHO, of course.


 
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