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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4



 
 
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  #1441  
Old June 25th, 2011, 9:52 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape View Post
I apologize if I'm mistaken, but you did seem to be drawing parallels between Snape & Voldemort's internal workings, and I was hoping you could elaborate on these parallels that you see and why they're so significant. Personally, I don't think Snape is a sociopath or anywhere near it, and I think Jo has made that distinction as well, and that's why I felt the need to comment that being immature doesn't necessarily make you evil.

I think slytherin001 has expressed it very well, so I won't repeat it.



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Yes, all of her words -- including when she says that she redeemed him in Harry's eyes because she wanted Snape to find redemption:
I'm wondering in terms of when JKR has something negative to say about Snape. Does that count, too?


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It's unfair, and yet - he forgives. I find that intriguing because I think it means that Harry understands some of what Snape went through, and believes he paid his dues. I guess my question would be, short of becoming a saint, what did Snape have to do to redeem himself?
I think it says more about Harry than it does about Snape. Harry was able to forgive Snape - that is about Harry, not about Snape, IMO.

Perhaps Snape could have treated the actual victim of his crime with some compassion? Or, at the very least, not singled him out for humiliation and insult? It would show that he actually understood that he was not the person who was most hurt by his crime, and an acceptance of Lily's choices - her choice of partner, and her choice not to watch her baby being murdered.


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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
Less than 25% actually. Snape, Avery and Mulciber seem to be the only apprentice Death Eaters of their year. In Harry's year there seemed to be about 30 kids. The classes seem to have been bigger in Snape's time so maybe 40-50 kids. Out of that 40-50 there was 3 that we know about. I would be surprised if 10% of the WW were actual Death Eaters. Of course the Death Eaters were ruthless and didn't care who they killed so it is very feasible that they could terrorise a population like they did.
I agree, that less than 25% of wizarding Britain became DEs. I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I think it proves that not every Slytherin became a DE because DEs did not comprise 25% of the wizarding community. I don't know what percentage were, but it was not as many as 25%. For that reason, not every student sorted into Slytherin went on to become a DE. Snape was not surrounded by a House full only of budding DEs. There were many Slytherins during Snape's school years who did not aspire to become racist criminals.

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And in turn, why does that not constitute goodness and even empathy? What kind of selfish, uncaring, immoral, heartless and unempathic person would ever bother with a promise to justice to the memory of someone he had done wrong? And why would such a person even bother to hold to such a promise?
The same kind of person who would take part in something as terrible as the DEs, IMO. Snape acted for Lily only - not because a child deserved to be safe. IMO, Snape's obsessive love for Lily meant that he would keep his promise, when Dumbledore had emotionally blackmailed him into it. I do not see any empathy in his failure to understand that Lily loved her family, and did not want to see them slaughtered.

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On redemption, I think Snape needed, among many other things, to feel remorse. Genuine remorse. We know he felt remorse for his part in Lily's death. But I don't think he felt at all sorry for what Harry lost because of something Snape had a hand in. It's interesting that Snape spent almost half his life seeking penance in the way of protecting Harry because of his love for Lily. I think he thought Lily would have wanted Snape to protect Harry. Through this vein, it only begs the question of why Snape treated Harry the way he did. Did he really think Lily would have wanted him to treat her son in the vile way he did? Confusing.
I think that if Snape did acknowledge that he played a part in Lily's murder, he felt remorse. IMO, grieving is not the same as remorse, and we know that Snape grieved for Lily. Remorse for his part in her death is less clear.
I agree that he didn't regret what Harry had lost - it seems to be all about what Severus Snape lost, not about the child who lost his parents at the age of fifteen months.

I think Snape's treatment of Harry, for several reasons, shows that he did not understand Lily. As a teenager, he did not understan why Lily objected to his racist friends; as a grown man in his thirties, it did not occur to him that Lily would be furious at him for bullying her son.


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Last edited by FurryDice; June 25th, 2011 at 10:03 pm.
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  #1442  
Old June 25th, 2011, 10:07 pm
Charlotte_Snape  Female.gif Charlotte_Snape is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by slytherin001 View Post
Well, I can't speak for FurryDice about why she decided to compare Snape to LV. Why not point them out though? We're analyzing Snape's character, his personality and motives.
But you've both agreed that he isn't evil, so my questions still stand: why make the comparison if you yourself don't believe there's any substance to it?

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It's easy to take complex and subjective-based characters like Snape and compare them to others (ie LV, James, Sirius, etc). Although, I'm not sure this is the thread to be comparing.
Yup.

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On redemption, I think Snape needed, among many other things, to feel remorse. Genuine remorse. We know he felt remorse for his part in Lily's death. But I don't think he felt at all sorry for what Harry lost because of something Snape had a hand in
And you base this on his outward demeanor?

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It's interesting that Snape spent almost half his life seeking penance in the way of protecting Harry because of his love for Lily. I think he thought Lily would have wanted Snape to protect Harry. Through this vein, it only begs the question of why Snape treated Harry the way he did.
I don't think it begs the question at all.

It's similar to the situation of a divorce -- hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't expect my boyfriend to give a hoot about me or the new person in my life, but do I expect him to do right by our son (because it's his loved one too).

The analogy I draw is that people aren't always expected to love where they aren't capable of it, but to show loyalty to love when they do feel deeply for another person - that is expected of most people. At least, that is my understanding of why Harry eventually sees the good in Snape, despite the way Snape treated him.

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Did he really think Lily would have wanted him to treat her son in the vile way he did? Confusing.
No, but do you really think that Lily & James would still hold all of that against Snape after his death? After their own son had forgiven him?????? Talk about Confusing...


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  #1443  
Old June 25th, 2011, 10:13 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Please note: People are allowed to have a different opinion from you. Feel free to disagree with other posters - vehemently, if necessary - but can you all quit aggressively questioning their right to believe what they do/implying that your own view is better.


  #1444  
Old June 25th, 2011, 10:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape View Post
But you've both agreed that he isn't evil, so my questions still stand: why make the comparison if you yourself don't believe there's any substance to it?
I don't quite understand how you think that a parallel made between Snape and LV is considered void or having no substance to it just because the parallel doesn't conclude that Snape isn't inherently evil like LV. I personally don't believe the parallels that were made don't have any substance. I think they do. But, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to think that a parallel between Snape and Voldemort can only be seen as valid if the end result is that Snape is as evil as Voldemort.

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And you base this on his outward demeanor?
I base it on the behavior Snape displayed towards Harry. Seeing as how we have no concrete 'inward demeanor' to judge by, yes, I'm basing it on his 'outward demeanor'.

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It's similar to the situation of a divorce -- hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't expect my boyfriend to give a hoot about me or the new person in my life, but do I expect him to do right by our son (because it's his loved one too).
Yes, but hopefully you wouldn't want your ex to treat your son the equivalent of the way Snape treated Harry. Snape protected Harry, yes that's been established, but to make a mockery of Harry, taunt him about his dead father, and much more isn't something Lily or James wouldn't have wanted Harry's 'protector' to do.

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No, but do you really think that Lily & James would still hold all of that against Snape after his death? After their own son had forgiven him?????? Talk about Confusing...
I wasn't talking about what Lily or James would hold against Snape based on his actions toward Harry, nor anything about forgiveness. I was merely commenting about the contradictive nature of Snape wanting to do right by Lily by protecting her son, yet at the same time bullying and insulting her son.



Last edited by slytherin001; June 25th, 2011 at 10:27 pm.
  #1445  
Old June 25th, 2011, 10:38 pm
Charlotte_Snape  Female.gif Charlotte_Snape is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I'm wondering in terms of when JKR has something negative to say about Snape. Does that count, too?
I'm wondering in terms of the redemption JKR speaks of, why that doesn't seem to count? To be redeemed is to be redeemed of exactly those negative things that you "count" in your analysis (it certainly factors into mine).

If what she says is canon - why does his redemption not count?


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I think it says more about Harry than it does about Snape. Harry was able to forgive Snape - that is about Harry, not about Snape, IMO.
I think that's half of it. Harry forgiving Snape must have something to do with Snape himself, otherwise it's a compeltely arbitrary conclusion that he (and by extention - Jo) came to.

I include Snape's redemption in character analysis because Snape cannot logically be "redeemable" without his own actions being sufficiently redemptive. To me, it's about his actions just as much as other people's judgement thereof.

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Perhaps Snape could have treated the actual victim of his crime with some compassion? Or, at the very least, not singled him out for humiliation and insult?
Perhaps he couldn't because he was immature. Does that make him evil/comparable to Voldemort in any substantial way/shape/form?

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
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What kind of selfish, uncaring, immoral, heartless and unempathic person would ever bother with a promise to justice to the memory of someone he had done wrong? And why would such a person even bother to hold to such a promise?
The same kind of person who would take part in something as terrible as the DEs, IMO. IMO, Snape's obsessive love for Lily meant that he would keep his promise, when Dumbledore had emotionally blackmailed him into it. I do not see any empathy in his failure to understand that Lily loved her family, and did not want to see them slaughtered.
I think the question here is his "obsessive" love. When she broke the friendship off, he went his own dark way - how is breaking contact and walking off in your own direction "obsessive"???

If his actions after her death seem "obsessive" - well, isn't that what makes love the greatest power?? If Love wasn't something that could literally possess people to do the right thing, then what "power" at all would it be against Voldemort?

IMHO His love was deep and real - it was the "best of him", and it saved Harry's life.


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Originally Posted by slytherin001 View Post
Yes, but hopefully you wouldn't want your ex to treat your son the equivalent of the way Snape treated Harry.
No I wouldn't expect that because my ex has a previous positive connection to our son -- Snape had no previous positive connection to Harry (so the direct parallel I am drawing would be having no previous positive connection to another person).


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Last edited by Charlotte_Snape; June 25th, 2011 at 10:56 pm.
  #1446  
Old June 25th, 2011, 10:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape View Post
But you've both agreed that he isn't evil, so my questions still stand: why make the comparison if you yourself don't believe there's any substance to it?
Is Snape evil? Evil is a very strong word. Do I think that Snape committed evil acts, yes I do. Joining a group of terrorists is IMO evil. Willingly giving a murderer information that would lead that murderer to target an innocent family, yes I believe that was evil. To try and save the mother of that faimly at the expense of her husband and child, yes I think that was fairly evil. Is it evil to bully schoolchildren in a classroom where you have total control, well it sure wasn't nice. I argued earlier in another thread that there is no real way to measure evil, so I will say this. Snape committed evil acts of his own free will and we can't say that his acts are less evil than Voldemort's because evil is evil, but Snape did try to redeem himself, Voldemort never did.

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And you base this on his outward demeanor?
It's kind of hard to base it on anything else.


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I don't think it begs the question at all.

It's similar to the situation of a divorce -- hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't expect my boyfriend to give a hoot about me or the new person in my life, but do I expect him to do right by our son (because it's his loved one too).
That presupposes that your hypothetical ex loves your child in the first place. If your child was his child then you could assume that your ex loves the child. If the hypothetical child is not his child but rather the child of a man he hates and the hypothetical ex hates the hypothetical father of said child then you can't assume the your ex would love that child. And as Rowling has stated, Snape loathed Harry. He was not Harry's father, Harry's father was a man that Snape IMO wrongly blamed for a lot of things. So in a hypothetical case as you have just described, with the emotions as they are described in the books I think a mother would want to get her child as far from the jealous ex as possible. Just my opinion on this scenario.

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The analogy I draw is that people aren't always expected to love where they aren't capable of it, but to show loyalty to love when they do feel deeply for another person - that is expected of most people. At least, that is my understanding of why Harry eventually sees the good in Snape, despite the way Snape treated him.
Harry was a man with a large and forgiving heart. His forgiveness is more his gift than what Snape deserved.


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No, but do you really think that Lily & James would still hold all of that against Snape after his death? After their own son had forgiven him?????? Talk about Confusing...
Again Harry's forgiveness is not his parents and children are not stamped out from his parents characteristics. I think Lily and James would be plenty angry at Snape, the author of their misfortunes, not happy with being the indirect cause of the end of their family, but actually bullying and tormenting their son. I wouldn't have forgiven him no matter what he did. But then I never claimed to be as nice as Harry's parents. Snape worked for Dumbledore for many reasons and we can't forget where he would have ended up if Dumbledore had not shown him mercy. He would have been in Azkaban. All of this IMO just can't be forgiven because Snape spied for Dumbledore. Also we never hear if Neville forgave Dumbledore. I wouldn't be surprised if Neville did forgive him, but Neville was a sweet boy and a very courageous man with a big heart, much like Harry. What is telling is that Harry forgave Snape for his very real wrongs against him, Snape never forgave anybody any wrong, ans so many of those wrongs were IMO imagined.


  #1447  
Old June 25th, 2011, 11:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
Snape loathed Harry. He was not Harry's father, Harry's father was a man that Snape IMO wrongly blamed for a lot of things.
When Snape looked at Harry, he saw:
a reminder of the man who won Lily - the woman he loved as well


Later, once he really got to know him, he began to see Harry for Harry.

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
Harry was a man with a large and forgiving heart. His forgiveness is more his gift than what Snape deserved..
I'd say it was more than kind forgiveness. IMHO, there had to have been genuine understanding - otherwise, he would never have named his son Albus Severus. People don't name their children after those they don't deeply respect (unless they are rock stars, or they simply love the name itself).

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
Also we never hear if Neville forgave Dumbledore. .
He probably did.


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Last edited by MerryLore; June 25th, 2011 at 11:09 pm. Reason: content
  #1448  
Old June 25th, 2011, 11:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

The question of teenage James's treatment of teenage Snape and whether or not it constituted "bullying" is a contentious one and not one you may discuss here. Discussion of who started or who is most to blame for the feud between Snape and the Marauders is banned.


  #1449  
Old June 25th, 2011, 11:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Later, once he really got to know him, he began to see Harry for Harry.
Do we really know whether or not he did, though? Methinks not.


  #1450  
Old June 25th, 2011, 11:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Really? I see him losing interest in her concerns as soon as she criticises his rivals. I don't see him ever acknowledging, even by silence, that Lily's concerns about his DE wannabe pals are valid.
I should say I don't have any particular problem with that reading. But once again, I do not believe his feelings about her and his feelings about Death Eating were as interrelated as even the author seems to be suggesting but that his Lily and real Lily had some key differences. I don't really see it as his making a choice between Lily and his friends, but as his trying to find a way to have both.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I agree, he did consider her special - she was an exception, apart from the other "filthy little Mudbloods". But I do not think much of how he treated Lily, even though he "loved" her. That is a pretty odd way to treat a loved one, IMO. He would have saved Lily, and let her beloved family be murdered. And even before Lily's child was the focus of the prophecy - he supported and later joined a criminal organisation that wanted to oppress and kill Muggleborns - that's a strange way to behave towards a "loved" one.
Right, and I'm with you there on his behavior throughout the memories we can look at. He evidently considers blood purity somewhat significant from the very beginning--at least I believe so based on how he treats Petunia. There's also his sorting into Slytherin for what that's worth. However, none of his actions I'm aware of following his betrayal of the prophesy even suggest to me that his mature beliefs are aligned with the Death Eaters.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think that does demonstrate a lack of understanding. He did not understand that Lily had morals that said that oppression of all Muggleborns was wrong. Not just oppression of the Muggleborn who mattered to Severus Snape. And, as I said above, I believe expecting her to appreciate being an exception was very disrespectful and objectifying.
I'm not sure her comments can be interpreted on such a broad scale. Had she elaborated on her own beliefs, maybe I'd agree, but as it is I think they both knew where the other stood on the issues. Snape simply imagined a Lily who somehow didn't care what he was up to, and meanwhile she was imagining a Snape who would abandon his friends and be a good kid like she wanted. Neither one was really close I guess.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Lily was advising him not to become involved with a group of racists who were on the way to joining the most evil wizard of their time. IMO, that is the kind of thing a good friend does. Could one ask instead, why was Snape more willing to be influenced by the racists than by Lily? IMO, it is a tremendous stretch to expect Lily to adapt to a friend's belief that she was the exception to the rule that Muggleborns were scum.
Well that is the question... I was only suggesting that if you ignore the moral aspect of what she suspected (which I consider a necessity for complete understanding of the situation), she made what I find to be some pretty unfair demands. Anyway, the author claims the Dark Arts had such a strong pull on Snape that he believed Lily would be impressed. I don't see that working, as we've discussed... but I would be comfortable believing he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't find that plausible. I do not think it makes Snape a rounded character if all his actions, even the ones many readers find reprehensible, like joining a group of murderers had a positive sweet loving motivation. I think it would turn him into a boring Garry Stu.
Oh I don't know how plausible it is either, but I disagree with you about the implications of it. I see several threads of Snape running through the books, and his love for Lily is the one that remains true irrespective of circumstances. Several of his key decisions involve his feelings for Lily, and so all I've supposed is that he began making such decisions earlier. His motives would have been slightly different, but given that they were unknown to the reader until relatively late, I don't agree that he'd have been boring or especially more likable.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
As well as making Snape's mistakes, once again, Everyone Else's Fault.
Well I must beg your pardon, as this appears to be some form of Snape Jargon I'm not familiar with I do not see how that scenario requires anyone else to be blamed for Snape's mistakes though.


  #1451  
Old June 25th, 2011, 11:18 pm
MsJPotter  Undisclosed.gif MsJPotter is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[
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QUOTE=MerryLore;5761239]When Snape looked at Harry, he saw:
1) a reminder of the man who won Lily - the woman he loved as well
and
2) the son of a man who bullied HIM.
And he was correct on both accounts.

Later, once he really got to know him, he began to see Harry for Harry.
Did he? When?
What Snape saw when he looked at Harry had nothing to do with Harry IMO and everything to do with Snape's lack of maturity.
Forgive me if I don't believe that Lily was won by anybody. She was not a prize at a fairground booth.

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I'd say it was more than kind forgiveness. IMHO, there had to have been genuine understanding - otherwise, he would never have named his son Albus Severus. People don't name their children after those they don't deeply respect (unless they are rock stars, or they simply love the name itself).
As I said Harry was a great man with a big heart. I think he felt sorry for Snape.



Last edited by MsJPotter; June 25th, 2011 at 11:21 pm. Reason: Inthread warning
  #1452  
Old June 26th, 2011, 12:14 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
He had 10 years of twiddling his thumbs then while he was waiting for Harry to come to Hogwarts. He then had another 3-4 years of waiting till Voldemort returned in a body that could do harm. He did have a bit of work to do in Harry's First year but Harry was doing OK IMO of looking out for himself. Well he had help from Hermione and Ron. That leaves a lot of time doing nothing.
We aren't told exactly what Snape was doing during those years, but we do know that Dumbledore and Snape both knew that Voldemort would return.

" - the Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does."
(Dumbledore, DH, The Prince's Tale)

I would think that Dumbledore would have had Snape keep his ear to the ground during the years leading up to Voldemort's return. So I think it is unlikely that he was doing nothing. Somebody must have informed Dumbledore that someone was planning on stealing the Philospher's Stone for him to have it removed from Gringotts to Hogwarts.

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Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
It could be but as it is never shown that he worked on his skills and the only time we see him outisde with leasuretime he is finding his newspaper interesting we can't really say that he was practicing a lot can we.
As far as I recall we never see Snape reading the newspaper in the books. That is seen in the film only. The only time we see Snape at leisure,he has Wormtail there spying on him which can't have been very relaxing.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; June 26th, 2011 at 12:36 am.
  #1453  
Old June 26th, 2011, 12:17 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape View Post
I'm wondering in terms of the redemption JKR speaks of, why that doesn't seem to count? To be redeemed is to be redeemed of exactly those negative things that you "count" in your analysis (it certainly factors into mine).

If what she says is canon - why does his redemption not count?
Yes, I include what JKR said about Snape being redeemed. My question was, if all of JKR's statements are counted, does that include those where she has something negative to say about Snape?

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I think that's half of it. Harry forgiving Snape must have something to do with Snape himself, otherwise it's a compeltely arbitrary conclusion that he (and by extention - Jo) came to.
I think it is to do with Harry, much, much more than Snape - it says that Harry is a forgiving, generous-hearted person. It doesn't say that everything Snape did from "Anything" to "Look..at...me" was right or justified.

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I include Snape's redemption in character analysis because Snape cannot logically be "redeemable" without his own actions being sufficiently redemptive. To me, it's about his actions just as much as other people's judgement thereof.
If Snape's story is about redemption, then, logically, he must have done something to need redemption. Namely, his involvement in something evil, and his actions in serving and spying for Voldemort - which are deeds I would consider evil. His deeds, and not Snape himself, to be specific.

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I think the question here is his "obsessive" love. When she broke the friendship off, he went his own dark way - how is breaking contact and walking off in your own direction "obsessive"???
Snape had no choice but to go. Lily made it quite clear that she wasn't going to have any involvement with a budding DE. Snape did not accept Lily's choices - Lily's son was a clear and tangible sign of Lily's choices - her choice of a non-DE partner, her choice not to watch her son die. Snape's treatment of Harry shows that he did not accept Lily's choices.

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If his actions after her death seem "obsessive" - well, isn't that what makes love the greatest power?? If Love wasn't something that could literally possess people to do the right thing, then what "power" at all would it be against Voldemort?
I think obsessive love objectifies the "loved" one. Obsession is not a healthy thing, IMO. Love can be powerful without being obsessive.

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No I wouldn't expect that because my ex has a previous positive connection to our son -- Snape had no previous positive connection to Harry (so the direct parallel I am drawing would be having no previous positive connection to another person).
But that doesn't justify Snape's treatment of Harry, IMO. Harry was an innocent child, who was not responsible for things that happened before he was born. Whatever Snape's connection to Harry's parents, Harry was a child, and a child who never knew his parents, in part thanks to Snape's crime. That complicates the situation even further. Snape is a part of the reason why Harry has no parents - I don't think he gets to be the injured party where Harry is concerned.

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
I should say I don't have any particular problem with that reading. But once again, I do not believe his feelings about her and his feelings about Death Eating were as interrelated as even the author seems to be suggesting but that his Lily and real Lily had some key differences. I don't really see it as his making a choice between Lily and his friends, but as his trying to find a way to have both.
I think he failed to recognise that he couldn't have both. I think a lack of respect for Lily was a factor in failing to see that.

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Right, and I'm with you there on his behavior throughout the memories we can look at. He evidently considers blood purity somewhat significant from the very beginning--at least I believe so based on how he treats Petunia. There's also his sorting into Slytherin for what that's worth. However, none of his actions I'm aware of following his betrayal of the prophesy even suggest to me that his mature beliefs are aligned with the Death Eaters.
I wasn't talking about Snape in his thirties. I was talking about Snape in his late teens, beginning of his twenties who did align himself with the DEs, and bought into their bigotry.

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I'm not sure her comments can be interpreted on such a broad scale. Had she elaborated on her own beliefs, maybe I'd agree, but as it is I think they both knew where the other stood on the issues. Snape simply imagined a Lily who somehow didn't care what he was up to, and meanwhile she was imagining a Snape who would abandon his friends and be a good kid like she wanted. Neither one was really close I guess.
Lily was unwilling to be the Mafia wife type of person that Snape seemed to want her to be so, and Snape was unwilling to give up his plans to become a criminal. That sounds about right.


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Well that is the question... I was only suggesting that if you ignore the moral aspect of what she suspected (which I consider a necessity for complete understanding of the situation), she made what I find to be some pretty unfair demands. Anyway, the author claims the Dark Arts had such a strong pull on Snape that he believed Lily would be impressed. I don't see that working, as we've discussed... but I would be comfortable believing he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
I cannot ignore the moral issue, because it was a moral issue. A Muggleborn did not want her friend hanging around with people who considered Muggleborns scum. There are direct real-world parallels to that kind of situation, which as far as I know, are forbidden in discussion here, but they exist and they are blatantly obvious, IMO. I cannot see how Lily was being unreasonable. She did not want her friend hanging around with racists who looked down on her. In what way is it an unfair demand?

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Oh I don't know how plausible it is either, but I disagree with you about the implications of it. I see several threads of Snape running through the books, and his love for Lily is the one that remains true irrespective of circumstances. Several of his key decisions involve his feelings for Lily, and so all I've supposed is that he began making such decisions earlier. His motives would have been slightly different, but given that they were unknown to the reader until relatively late, I don't agree that he'd have been boring or especially more likable.
If one uses Snape's love for Lily to argue that everything from "Anything" to "Look...at...me" was justified or was done for the right reason, then yes, I think it does turn Snape into a less complex character. If Snape's treatment of Harry, Hermione and Neville is insignificant, or somehow "acceptable" because Snape loved Lily, where is the complexity? If Snape was some martyr figure who, because he loved Lily, never did any wrong by her or her child, where is his much-vaunted complexity?
Even more so if Snape's love for Lily is used to say that Snape's actions were not that bad because he loved one person.

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Well I must beg your pardon, as this appears to be some form of Snape Jargon I'm not familiar with I do not see how that scenario requires anyone else to be blamed for Snape's mistakes though.
I'm referring to Snape's actions being blamed on others - on his parents, Lily, other peers, Dumbledore.


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  #1454  
Old June 26th, 2011, 2:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape View Post
No I wouldn't expect that because my ex has a previous positive connection to our son -- Snape had no previous positive connection to Harry (so the direct parallel I am drawing would be having no previous positive connection to another person).
Well the issue I still have with it, is that you said The analogy I draw is that people aren't always expected to love where they aren't capable of it, but to show loyalty to love when they do feel deeply for another person - that is expected of most people. If you mean that Snape showed loyalty to Lily by protecting her son, I understand that. But it's a bit contradictive that he turns around and torments her son.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think obsessive love objectifies the "loved" one. Obsession is not a healthy thing, IMO. Love can be powerful without being obsessive.
Precisely. There is nothing healthy about ripping Lily out of the photo with her family. It's beyond creepy and a little disturbing. There's nothing healthy about taking out the loss of a loved one on said loved one's child. It's crude and also disturbing. I think that Snape's obsessive love for Lily was both a blessing and a curse. It allowed him to change his path, yet it also caused him to become a creepy, rude and immature adult. JMO.



Last edited by slytherin001; June 26th, 2011 at 2:54 am.
  #1455  
Old June 26th, 2011, 4:40 am
Charlotte_Snape  Female.gif Charlotte_Snape is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Yes, I include what JKR said about Snape being redeemed. My question was, if all of JKR's statements are counted, does that include those where she has something negative to say about Snape?
Yes they do - but I'm just asking how much do they count in light of redemption, if redemption implies a "clearing of debt" or absolution from past misdeeds? I don't think it matters much anyway tho, so I'll forfeit the argument.


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Last edited by Charlotte_Snape; June 26th, 2011 at 11:40 am.
  #1456  
Old June 26th, 2011, 5:12 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

It is okay to post quotes of what JK Rowling said, but let's not bring her into the discussion. She isn't here to defend herself.


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  #1457  
Old June 26th, 2011, 5:14 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

When we were waiting for DH to come out, we were all divided between those who thought Snape was a good guy and those who thought he was a bad guy. That's how complex his character was. We weren't in the same doubt about any other character I can think of. Since DH we understand now what he was and so some of his complexity is simplified. He still remains however a man who was both good and bad, at different times and to different degrees. When Harry called him the bravest man he ever knew, I think he was referring to the years Snape spent as a double agent, risking his life constantly to spy on Voldemort, which he did so well that even at the end, Voldemort couldn't believe Snape had been Dumbledore's man. He had kept his promise to do what he could to ensure Harry's safety, whatever his motives for that were. These two I feel are the things that redeemed him.


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  #1458  
Old June 26th, 2011, 6:57 am
canismajoris  Male.gif canismajoris is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think he failed to recognise that he couldn't have both. I think a lack of respect for Lily was a factor in failing to see that.
Well, what you're calling lack of respect is what I see as a more particular symptom of his feelings for her. If I'm right, Snape saw her as something of a non-entity... an idealized and nonexistent version of Lily that he cherished and projected onto her when they were together. While this is by no means a healthy thing, I'm not sure at that point it was a matter of respect or anything else resembling normal social interaction that he could control.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I wasn't talking about Snape in his thirties. I was talking about Snape in his late teens, beginning of his twenties who did align himself with the DEs, and bought into their bigotry.
Oh, I was only pointing out that for some reason his views appear to have evolved, and I'm not entirely certain when it happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Lily was unwilling to be the Mafia wife type of person that Snape seemed to want her to be so, and Snape was unwilling to give up his plans to become a criminal. That sounds about right.
I'm curious why you suppose that's what Snape wanted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I cannot ignore the moral issue, because it was a moral issue [...] I cannot see how Lily was being unreasonable. She did not want her friend hanging around with racists who looked down on her. In what way is it an unfair demand?
I can't stress this enough: it's not why she did it, but how she did it that bothers me. I would go into more detail, but it seems like we simply don't read those passages the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
If one uses Snape's love for Lily to argue that everything from "Anything" to "Look...at...me" was justified or was done for the right reason, then yes, I think it does turn Snape into a less complex character.
But who said anything about the right reason? I was only suggesting that his lifelong obsession led him to make some particular choices. And we already know of some instances where this has been explicitly described in the text. So, consider the following lines, among the last ones presented that Lily speaks to Snape:

The Prince's TaleI've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends-- you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?

[...]

I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine.

Following this, what should we conclude Snape might have been thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
If Snape's treatment of Harry, Hermione and Neville is insignificant, or somehow "acceptable" because Snape loved Lily, where is the complexity? If Snape was some martyr figure who, because he loved Lily, never did any wrong by her or her child, where is his much-vaunted complexity? Even more so if Snape's love for Lily is used to say that Snape's actions were not that bad because he loved one person.
I would prefer if we stuck to things I actually argued, please...

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I'm referring to Snape's actions being blamed on others - on his parents, Lily, other peers, Dumbledore.
All I can say is people screw up sometimes. I don't really feel any need to defend or condemn his actions, but I think it would be remarkable if nobody else had any influence on him throughout his entire life.


  #1459  
Old June 26th, 2011, 11:13 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Dear posters,

Last warning! The tone in here needs to improve drastically. Stop accusing others of reading sinister motives into your post, stop reading sinister motives into other posters' posts, stop insinuating that only you are right and that every other viewpoint is somehow inferior and not the pinnacle of good analysis and please stop with the snarkiness and the sarcasm. You can make your point without wielding a double edged sword.

You've had several in-threads very recently. Everyone who thinks that others are to blame for their own shortcomings and that baiting someone will only get the other person in trouble is sorely mistaken.

The thread will not be closed again but several posters may find themselves excluded from the discussion if they cannot adhere to our rules.


  #1460  
Old June 26th, 2011, 12:38 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by slytherin001 View Post
There is nothing healthy about ripping Lily out of the photo with her family. It's beyond creepy and a little disturbing.
I think we have to look at the circumstances and Snape's emotional state here. He had just killed Dumbledore who was the only person who knew Snape's true feelings and loyalties and the nearest thing he had to a friend. He had by killing Dumbledore isolated himself from everyone on the "good" side and become the most wanted man in the wizarding world next to Voldemort. He was in an extremely emotional state,and I think he probably went to Grimmauld Place because he was so emotional as no DE's could find him there. So think Severus was acting whilst suffering from an emotioanl trauma when he tore the photograph.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; June 26th, 2011 at 12:52 pm.
 
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