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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 4:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I don't think your description comes close to capturing Snape's motives within the timeline of the series, and especially not in the final year and a half.(And I think that's an additional reason for Harry's admiration of Snape, that he sees it the way I do).

First of all, I do not see any evidence of "rage" being the main emotion Snape feels over the death of Lily. Remorse, emotional pain, and deep sadness seem closer to the mark, as suggested by this passage:

DH, "The Prince's Tale"Harry stood in Dumbledore’s office, and something was making a terrible sound, like a wounded animal. Snape slumped forward in a chair and Dumbledore was standing over him, looking grim. After a moment or two, Snape raised his face, and he looked like a man who had lived a hundred years of misery since leaving the wild hilltop.


And second - later in the scene I cited, Snape agrees to help Albus protect Harry from Voldemort. ("For Lily"). Yet many, many actions undertaken by Snape later, within the main body of the series rather than flashbacks, go beyond that charge. These include actions I find pretty unambiguously good, which contribute to Voldemort's downfall and/or save lives, such as the killing of Dumbledore, the giving of his memories to Harry, the attempt to interfere with the killing of Lupin by a Death Eater, etc.

It seems to me that the threat to Lily was what it took to make Snape realize he had been making a serious mistake with his life, but that over time, he adopted the cause and motives of the side he served so loyally. So I do not find it odd that Harry found this worthy.
I find attempting to look at the situation from an objective standpoint often leads to the clearest perception of the true situation. While it's possible that Lily's death was a "wake up call" that turned him into a great person, I find that I fully disagree with the notion that a person can "snap" out of being a "bad" individual. Snape never fully leaves behind his lovely personality that so ingratiated himself with the marauders, and thus doesn't seem to have changed 100%. He also seems to have retained his vindictiveness, his loathing, his grudges, and his ability to hate, as well as his inability to render sound judgement upon a subject to whom his feelings are ill-intended. Does he not rule over a school that allows students to use the Cruciatus curse on its students? Now, while Snape himself, presumably, is not actually administering the curse, the fact that he allows it to happen is fairly, to coin a phrase, Unforgivable.

Another thing... Severus allows Burbage to die in front of him, pleading for her life. Why does Severus allow this to happen, when he can stop it? Is it not because stopping it would lead to Severus' own death? Couldn't he run, grab her, and apparate out of there?

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Sorry, you've lost me. Could you clarify what you mean, and how you feel this relates to the belief that motive doesn't matter, because I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.



Probably, just like I think it probable for someone to have completely "unpure" motives. I'd say the vast majority of people will have motives that are complex or somewhere in between, though. For example, Order members might have joined up to protect their family, friends, perfect strangers, Wizarding culture, the Muggle world, the sense of right, justice, truth, etc. They could have many motives, and probably do. I don't see how multiple or complex motives don't matter, though. All motives matter a great deal to me in the interpretation of Harry Potter, because I feel that "intent matters" is a major running theme of the series.
I did a really poor job of saying what I meant here... My point is that Snape did what he did, saving Harry, protecting him until he died, out of either unrequited love or guilt. Not out of the goodness of his heart. And I think Harry is still thankful that he did it, regardless of intent. However, I don't think the motives taint the action for Harry, who is still alive because of him. I think it's the actions that matter.

I think the word you're looking for is "impure". Impurity of intent is not something that can be complete or incomplete, either you're doing it completely out of the goodness of your heart, or you have an ulterior motive which clouds the real reason for doing what you did.



Last edited by giftedkid527; December 3rd, 2010 at 5:02 pm.
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  #42  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
I find attempting to look at the situation from an objective standpoint often leads to the clearest perception of the true situation. While it's possible that Lily's death was a "wake up call" that turned him into a great person, I find that I fully disagree with the notion that a person can "snap" out of being a "bad" individual. Snape never fully leaves behind his lovely personality that so ingratiated himself with the marauders, and thus doesn't seem to have changed 100%. He also seems to have retained his vindictiveness, his loathing, his grudges, and his ability to hate, as well as his inability to render sound judgement upon a subject to whom his feelings are ill-intended. Does he not rule over a school that allows students to use the Cruciatus curse on its students? Now, while Snape himself, presumably, is not actually administering the curse, the fact that he allows it to happen is fairly, to coin a phrase, Unforgivable.
Imo, just because Snape didn't socialize with the Order or wasn't a "nice" teacher, that doesn't mean he didn't change 100% as you say. People do not have to be friendly, nice, or have a winning personality in order to do the right thing. And Snape did the right thing for the majority of his life.

I could also argue that Snape was never totally "bad", but joined the Death Eaters in a misguided attempt to gain acceptance. He picked the wrong path as a teenager. As a young adult he saw how horrible his choices were and started, from the moment he meets Dumbledore on the hilltop, to work for the Order.

Imo, it's safe to say that Snape had to tolerate certain things at Hogwarts while he was Headmaster. After all, he was placed there by Voldemort and the Carrows were teaching. If he seemed to protest the punishment too much, Voldemort would have gotten suspicious. I think he did the best he could given the circumstances. We see him punish Ginny, Luna, and Neville by making them go to Hagrid's. Imo, even going into the forest with Hagrid is much better then what the Carrows would have done.

Also the other teachers protected the students as best they could. It was a terrible time at Hogwarts, but I don't see how Snape could have prevented the Carrows and the punishments with out blowing his cover.

Quote:
Another thing... Severus allows Burbage to die in front of him, pleading for her life. Why does Severus allow this to happen, when he can stop it? Is it not because stopping it would lead to Severus' own death? Couldn't he run, grab her, and apparate out of there?
If he grabbed her and ran for it, how would he continue to work against Voldemort? He would have been killed, imo. Even if he gotten away with it, Voldemort would know Snape wasn't loyal to him. The Carrows would have gotten control of Hogwarts, Snape couldn't help Harry get the sword of Gryffindor, he couldn't take orders from Dumbledore's portrait. Snape being in Hogwarts and having Voldemort believe he's loyal is extremely important to Voldemort's downfall, imo. So I do not see a way for him to save Charity (whom I believe he didn't know was captured until he walked into the room) and retain his cover.



Last edited by snapegirl; December 3rd, 2010 at 5:27 pm.
  #43  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:24 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

How exactly would Snape have been able to save Charity Burbage without blowing his cover and jeopardizing the rest of his mission? He needed to be close to Voldemort, he needed to be posted at Hogwarts, and he needed to have the freedom and means to aid Harry if could do so without revealing himself. He couldn't do any of that if he was found out as a spy. I think he was a great wizard, but I don't think he could win against Voldemort and his DEs if they chose to go after him.

Also, I don't for a moment think that Severus did not care that she was about to get murdered and he could do nothing about it. In fact, the line in TPT about only watching people die when he can't save them pretty much says that he'll save people when he can do so.

As for the school. Snape was headmaster, but he could only do so much, IMO. Voldemort was above him. If Voldemort approved of using curses and teaching Dark Arts, how was Snape supposed to oppose that aside from not giving out those types of punishments himself or ordering the other teachers to do so? IMO, he did what he could and it's unrealistic to expect him to have completely reigned in the DEs that were placed at the school.

I also don't think he started working for Dumbledore after Lily was threatened and suddenly became all goodness and light. I don't think he was an evil child, just a child that took the wrong path and made big mistakes. He evolved from that person. I think it's pretty clear that he did so. Some of his actions for the good side had nothing to do with Lily and Harry, even though I think his primary focus was Harry until that last year and half. At that point he moved beyond that and looked at the bigger picture.

I think he was a good man, but he came with a lot of baggage who also carried a lot of weight on his shoulders. He may not have behaved perfectly or nicely but plenty of people in real life have a bad attitude. I wouldn't assume that they are bad people, and in the case of Snape he does good and is understood, respected, and acknowledged by the hero of the series in a very significant way...


  #44  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
I think he was a good man, but he came with a lot of baggage who also carried a lot of weight on his shoulders. He may not have behaved perfectly or nicely but plenty of people in real life have a bad attitude. I wouldn't assume that they are bad people, and in the case of Snape he does good and is understood, respected, and acknowledged by the hero of the series in a very significant way...


I pose another question:

If Snape found out about the DA in OOTP (I think it was likely that Dumbledore would've told him before leaving Hogwarts), what do you think his reaction would be to the idea? Do you think that he would be pleased/satisfied that students were trying to rise up against Umbridge (whom, in my opinion, he disliked very much) or do you think he would've thought that Harry was trying to get attention, and compared the boy with James again?


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  #45  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by snapegirl View Post
Imo, just because Snape didn't socialize with the Order or wasn't a "nice" teacher, that doesn't mean he didn't change 100% as you say. People do not have to be friendly, nice, or have a winning personality in order to do the right thing. And Snape did the right thing for the majority of his life.

I could also argue that Snape was never totally "bad", but joined the Death Eaters in a misguided attempt to gain acceptance. He picked the wrong path as a teenager. As a young adult he saw how horrible his choices were and started, from the moment he meets Dumbledore on the hilltop, to work for the Order.

Imo, it's safe to say that Snape had to tolerate certain things at Hogwarts while he was Headmaster. After all, he was placed there by Voldemort and the Carrows were teaching. If he seemed to protest the punishment too much, Voldemort would have gotten suspicious. I think he did the best he could given the circumstances. We see him punish Ginny, Luna, and Neville by making them go to Hagrid's. Imo, even going into the forest with Hagrid is much better then what the Carrows would have done.

Also the other teachers protected the students as best they could. It was a terrible time at Hogwarts, but I don't see how Snape could have prevented the Carrows and the punishments with out blowing his cover.

If he grabbed her and ran for it, how would he continue to work against Voldemort? He would have been killed, imo. Even if he gotten away with it, Voldemort would know Snape wasn't loyal to him. The Carrows would have gotten control of Hogwarts, Snape couldn't help Harry get the sword of Gryffindor, he couldn't take orders from Dumbledore's portrait. Snape being in Hogwarts and having Voldemort believe he's loyal is extremely important to Voldemort's downfall, imo. So I do not see a way for him to save Charity (whom I believe he didn't know was captured until he walked into the room) and retain his cover.
I think you view his actions through rose-colored glasses. Emotionally abusing 11 year olds isn't quite the same thing as being a shy person.

I think you'll find that I've consistently refused to refer to Snape as "bad", and it was my theory all along that he joined the DE for acceptance, see the page previous to this one where I psychoanalyze the decision.

So would you say, then, that Snape allowed the unforgivable curses to be used on the students, and allowed Charity Burbage to die "For the greater good"?

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
How exactly would Snape have been able to save Charity Burbage without blowing his cover and jeopardizing the rest of his mission? He needed to be close to Voldemort, he needed to be posted at Hogwarts, and he needed to have the freedom and means to aid Harry if could do so without revealing himself. He couldn't do any of that if he was found out as a spy. I think he was a great wizard, but I don't think he could win against Voldemort and his DEs if they chose to go after him.

Also, I don't for a moment think that Severus did not care that she was about to get murdered and he could do nothing about it. In fact, the line in TPT about only watching people die when he can't save them pretty much says that he'll save people when he can do so.

As for the school. Snape was headmaster, but he could only do so much, IMO. Voldemort was above him. If Voldemort approved of using curses and teaching Dark Arts, how was Snape supposed to oppose that aside from not giving out those types of punishments himself or ordering the other teachers to do so? IMO, he did what he could and it's unrealistic to expect him to have completely reigned in the DEs that were placed at the school.

I also don't think he started working for Dumbledore after Lily was threatened and suddenly became all goodness and light. I don't think he was an evil child, just a child that took the wrong path and made big mistakes. He evolved from that person. I think it's pretty clear that he did so. Some of his actions for the good side had nothing to do with Lily and Harry, even though I think his primary focus was Harry until that last year and half. At that point he moved beyond that and looked at the bigger picture.

I think he was a good man, but he came with a lot of baggage who also carried a lot of weight on his shoulders. He may not have behaved perfectly or nicely but plenty of people in real life have a bad attitude. I wouldn't assume that they are bad people, and in the case of Snape he does good and is understood, respected, and acknowledged by the hero of the series in a very significant way...
Harry refers to him as the "bravest man he ever knew", not the "man possessing the best heart". Snape made a ton of bad decisions that led to the loss of many lives, and made some very good decisions that led to the saving of many lives. I'm not sure how out of that you can pull a "good" man. I think doing so is an insult to the actual good people.


  #46  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:41 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by snapegirl View Post


Also the other teachers protected the students as best they could. It was a terrible time at Hogwarts, but I don't see how Snape could have prevented the Carrows and the punishments with out blowing his cover.
I agree with that. I would say that he was in the similar position than the other teachers when it came to protecting the students. He probably had a bit of an edge because he was on the inside, but it still would be very difficult to openly oppose the Carrows or Voldemort's wishes. The teachers could disapprove but if they were too open in protesting then they'd be fired at the very least... and I personally think they'd be more than fired. Then they'd be replaced by more DEs... what good would that do? Same goes for Snape. Things would have been worse if the headmaster was another DE, IMO.

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Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13 View Post


I pose another question:

If Snape found out about the DA in OOTP (I think it was likely that Dumbledore would've told him before leaving Hogwarts), what do you think his reaction would be to the idea? Do you think that he would be pleased/satisfied that students were trying to rise up against Umbridge (whom, in my opinion, he disliked very much) or do you think he would've thought that Harry was trying to get attention, and compared the boy with James again?
I think he'd be fine with the DA, but he might still think that Harry thought himself more important and knowing better than the adults around him. I think the latter is a product of the Occlumency sessions and how Harry was trying to learn what was behind the door rather than learn Occlumency. Snape might be angry that Harry didn't put as much of an effort in Occlumency as he did in the DA.

That's just off the top of my head. I never really thought about it before.


  #47  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
I did a really poor job of saying what I meant here... My point is that Snape did what he did, saving Harry, protecting him until he died, out of either unrequited love or guilt. Not out of the goodness of his heart. However, I don't think the motives taint the action for Harry, who is still alive because of him. I think it's the actions that matter.
Thank you for clarifying, and I hope I'm not misinterpreting you. Set me right if I am. . Is it your belief then that Harry's action is an authorial comment on Rowling's intent with the issue of intentions? That they don't matter?

Harry is silent on his motive, beyond declaring Snape to be brave. The how and why is not explored. So what motivated Harry is beyond me. The only thing I think we can tell is that he thought Snape brave and is honoring Snape's bravery. Harry's action does seem to put the authorial stamp of approval on Snape's actions because it places bravery above all else. But as I'm not sure if that is Rowling's intention, and in so many places throughout the book it was emphasized that intent matters, I simply cannot reinterprete the entire series through one unexplained action of Harry's. Intent mattered in far too many places in the series for it to be rendered suddenly moot, in my opinion. Lily's intention to die for her child made a difference, as did Voldemort's intent to let her live if she stood aside. Voldemort's intent to commit murder mangled his soul, while other people sometimes killed but their souls seem to be unharmed because of their intent. Regulus Black intended to make Voldemort mortal so someone could eventually kill him (a good thing), but all his action did was cause more trouble as Dumbledore covered the same ground and drank an icky potion that had dire effects but only recovered a fake locket (a bad thing); caused Kreacher distress because he couldn't talk about what happened and he couldn't destroy the locket (a bad thing); caused the Trio to have to go on yet another dangerous mission to recover what they could have already had (a bad thing). Tom Riddle's intent was to kill Harry (a bad thing) yet he ended up killing himself even after Harry warns him of the danger (a good thing). I think intent and actual outcome were both shown to be important throughout the series.

Quote:
I think the word you're looking for is "impure". Impurity of intent is not something that can be complete or incomplete, either you're doing it completely out of the goodness of your heart, or you have an ulterior motive which clouds the real reason for doing what you did.
I put "unpure" in quotes as a joke (a poor one). "Pure" can have the connotation of "good" as well as "in a simple state". I think it possible for a person to have a very simple motive for an action. The simple motive might be good, or ill. They also might have several motives or complex motives for what they do. I think using "ulterior motive" doesn't make what I mean clear, because it is possible to have many reasons for what one does, which are not outlying or intentionally kept secret, which is what "ulterior" implies. So, I may or may not have answered your question at this point. I think I lost track .


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Last edited by OldMotherCrow; December 3rd, 2010 at 5:47 pm.
  #48  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:51 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
So would you say, then, that Snape allowed the unforgivable curses to be used on the students, and allowed Charity Burbage to die "For the greater good"?
It was war, and in times of war men have to make tough decisions, which sometimes include having to sacrifice men in order to win the battle.


Quote:
Snape made a ton of bad decisions that led to the loss of many lives, and made some very good decisions that led to the saving of many lives.
A ton of bad decisions? Other than Lily and James, I can't recall anyone losing their lives because of a bad decision on Snape's part.


  #49  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:55 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Thank you for clarifying, and I hope I'm not misinterpreting you. Set me right if I am. . Is it your belief then that Harry's action is an authorial comment on Rowling's intent with the issue of intentions? That they don't matter?

Harry is silent on his motive, beyond declaring Snape to be brave. The how and why is not explored. So what motivated Harry is beyond me. The only thing I think we can tell is that he thought Snape brave and is honoring Snape's bravery. Harry's action does seem to put the authorial stamp of approval on Snape's actions because it places bravery above all else. But as I'm not sure if that is Rowling's intention, and in so many places throughout the book it was emphasized that intent matters, I simply cannot reinterprete the entire series through one unexplained action of Harry's. Intent mattered in far too many places in the series for it to be rendered suddenly moot, in my opinion. Lily's intention to die for her child made a difference, as did Voldemort's intent to let her live if she stood aside. Voldemort's intent to commit murder mangled his soul, while other people sometimes killed but their souls seem to be unharmed because of their intent. Regulus Black intended to make Voldemort mortal so someone could eventually kill him (a good thing), but all his action did was cause more trouble as Dumbledore covered the same ground and drank an icky potion that had dire effects but only recovered a fake locket (a bad thing); caused Kreacher distress because he couldn't talk about what happened and he couldn't destroy the locket (a bad thing); caused the Trio to have to go on yet another dangerous mission to recover what they could have already had (a bad thing). Tom Riddle's intent was to kill Harry (a bad thing) yet he ended up killing himself even after Harry warns him of the danger (a good thing). I think intent and actual outcome were both shown to be important throughout the series.



I put "unpure" in quotes as a joke (a poor one). "Pure" can have the connotation of "good" as well as "in a simple state". I think it possible for a person to have a very simple motive for an action. The simple motive might be good, or ill. They also might have several motives or complex motives for what they do. I think using "ulterior motive" doesn't make what I mean clear, because it is possible to have many reasons for what one does, which are not outlying or intentionally kept secret, which is what "ulterior" implies. So, I may or may not have answered your question at this point. I think I lost track .
I don't know that it's authorial intent, but I do know that bravery can exist without goodness driving it. That is my point.

Another question... Do you think Voldemort's death was "good"? I think it was a necessary evil. If it was "good" then Harry would've done it.


  #50  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
Harry refers to him as the "bravest man he ever knew", not the "man possessing the best heart".
I don't believe that Harry named his son after the man simply because he was brave. He was making a particular point with that statement. I look at how Harry reacted to everything in TPT and how he brought up Snape from that moment on. I think the way he defends Snape and uses him in his duel with words against Voldemort is very telling.


Quote:
Snape made a ton of bad decisions that led to the loss of many lives,
We know that he was partially responsible for the deaths of James and Lily. IMO, his bad choice was joining the DE and after working for them for less than a handful of years he then worked for 17 years or so on the opposite side. IMO, in that time he learned and improved a lot.

Quote:
and made some very good decisions that led to the saving of many lives.
Shouldn't that count for more, especially since all we really know of his work as a DE was that he was a glorified eavesdropper? IMO, he made mistakes, but his mistakes don't negate all the stuff he did after that. And yeah, I know he was a mean teacher, but I don't believe he wanted bad things for his students or others.

Quote:
I'm not sure how out of that you can pull a "good" man. I think doing so is an insult to the actual good people.
I'm sorry, but I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm trying to talk about a fictional character and expressing my opinion of him. It happens to not agree with yours, but I don't think voicing my opinion that I think Severus Snape was at his core a good if flawed man should be taken as an insult towards real life people. If one finds that opinion insulting then that is not my problem. I don't mean it as a personal insult towards good people in the world.



Last edited by boushh; December 3rd, 2010 at 5:59 pm.
  #51  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
It was war, and in times of war men have to make tough decisions, which sometimes include having to sacrifice men in order to win the battle.




A ton of bad decisions? Other than Lily and James, I can't recall anyone losing their lives because of a bad decision on Snape's part.
I think Harry would've abhorred the fact that Snape's decisions were so utalitarian, as opposed to just.

As I've mentioned before, Charity Burbage died directly because of Snape. I'll throw Moody in, because had Snape not ratted out the movements of Harry, Moody would have lived. I think it's safe to say that Harry's death that he returned from was partially the fault of Snape, since had Voldy not heard of the prophecy, he'd have never targeted Harry. Additionally, unless you believe that we have a full account of the acts of Severus Snape, there is a good chance there are more deaths out there that came at the hand of Severus.


  #52  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 5:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
I don't know that it's authorial intent, but I do know that bravery can exist without goodness driving it. That is my point.
I agree with that, and I also believe it applies to Snape.

Quote:
Another question... Do you think Voldemort's death was "good"? I think it was a necessary evil. If it was "good" then Harry would've done it.
A good question-- but I should reply in a different thread where it will be more on topic. When I figure out which one , I'll do so.


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  #53  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
I don't believe that Harry named his son after the man simply because he was brave. He was making a particular point with that statement. I look at how Harry reacted to everything in TPT and how he brought up Snape from that moment on. I think the way he defends Snape and uses him in his duel with words against Voldemort is very telling.




We know that he was partially responsible for the deaths of James and Lily. IMO, his bad choice was joining the DE and after working for them for less than a handful of years he then worked for 17 years or so on the opposite side. IMO, in that time he learned and improved a lot.



Shouldn't that count for more, especially since all we really know of his work as a DE was that he was a glorified eavesdropper? IMO, he made mistakes, but his mistakes don't negate all the stuff he did after that. And yeah, I know he was a mean teacher, but I don't believe he wanted bad things for his students or others.



I'm sorry, but I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm trying to talk about a fictional character and expressing my opinion of him. It happens to not agree with yours, but I don't think voicing my opinion that I think Severus Snape was at his core a good if flawed man should be taken as an insult towards real life people. If one finds that opinion insulting then that is not my problem. I don't mean it as a personal insult towards good people in the world.
Why do the good deeds outweigh the bad ones?


  #54  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
It was war, and in times of war men have to make tough decisions, which sometimes include having to sacrifice men in order to win the battle.
Defeating Voldemort was the ultimate goal and achieving that goal meant making tough decisions.


  #55  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by snapegirl View Post
Defeating Voldemort was the ultimate goal and achieving that goal meant making tough decisions.
I completely understand that this was the only choice that could be made. However, I completely disagree that his decision to take the life of at least one person, and subject students to the effects of the cruciatus curse makes him a "good" person.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I agree with that, and I also believe it applies to Snape.
So you agree, then, that Harry's statement that Snape was the bravest man he knew does not mean anything towards our discussion?

I wonder why Harry considers Snape braver than James, who sacrificed his life for Harry's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boushh View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm trying to talk about a fictional character and expressing my opinion of him. It happens to not agree with yours, but I don't think voicing my opinion that I think Severus Snape was at his core a good if flawed man should be taken as an insult towards real life people. If one finds that opinion insulting then that is not my problem. I don't mean it as a personal insult towards good people in the world.
I just feel that including Snape in the tier of "good" people along with Harry, Lily, Hermione, Ron, and others lessens the meaning of "good".



Last edited by giftedkid527; December 3rd, 2010 at 6:06 pm.
  #56  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
I completely understand that this was the only choice that could be made. However, I completely disagree that his decision to take the life of at least one person, and subject students to the effects of the cruciatus curse makes him a "good" person.
He never used an Unforgivable on any student. He was Headmaster during a time when Voldemort was in charge of the Wizarding world. As Headmaster, I believe he did everything in his power to protect the students. He vowed this to Dumbledore.

Decision to take the life of who? Charity? He didn't capture her, kill her or feed her to a snake. Voldemort did. The Carrows tortured the students, he didn't. Without blowing his cover as a spy, it is my opinion he did the best he could.


  #57  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
So you agree, then, that Harry's statement that Snape was the bravest man he knew does not mean anything towards our discussion?
You had brought it up in the discussion about whether or not Snape's motives were relevant. Harry's statement does not change my opinion that motives do matter. I thought you were of the opinion that only actions matter. It depends on how much stock and influence you allow Harry's declaration to have on your opinion, I suppose.

Quote:
I wonder why Harry considers Snape braver than James, who sacrificed his life for Harry's?
Probably a good question for the Harry Potter thread, since it is about what Harry would be thinking.


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  #58  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by snapegirl View Post
He never used an Unforgivable on any student. He was Headmaster during a time when Voldemort was in charge of the Wizarding world. As Headmaster, I believe he did everything in his power to protect the students. He vowed this to Dumbledore.

Decision to take the life of who? Charity? He didn't capture her, kill her or feed her to a snake. Voldemort did. The Carrows tortured the students, he didn't. Without blowing his cover as a spy, it is my opinion he did the best he could.
Refusing to stop the taking of her life, and passing up an opportunity to prevent it from happening is just as good as doing it himself. Allowing the cruciatus curse to be performed on his students is as good as doing it himself.


  #59  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by giftedkid527 View Post
As I've mentioned before, Charity Burbage died directly because of Snape.
I disagree.Charity being at Malfoy Mansion had nothing to do with Snape and he did not kill her, that was all Voldemort's doing. If Snape had in anyway attempted to save her, both of them would most certainly have been killed. This would have left the Carrows full reign at Hogwarts and more importantly, Harry would never have received the message that he had to die in order to finish Voldemort. Under the circumstances Snape did the right thing, imo.

Quote:
Additionally, unless you believe that we have a full account of the acts of Severus Snape, there is a good chance there are more deaths out there that came at the hand of Severus.

As I see, it this being a work of fiction all that we have is in the books. Therfore, if JKR didn't write about it it never happened.


  #60  
Old December 3rd, 2010, 6:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
You had brought it up in the discussion about whether or not Snape's motives were relevant. Harry's statement does not change my opinion that motives do matter. I thought you were of the opinion that only actions matter. It depends on how much stock and influence you allow Harry's declaration to have on your opinion, I suppose.



Probably a good question for the Harry Potter thread, since it is about what Harry would be thinking.
It's still about Snape's character... I'm wondering if Jo may have overplayed the bit when she was trying to convince us of the redemption of Snape. It seems as if she's overlooked a couple people on the "bravest man" list.


 
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