Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14



View Poll Results: Did Snape pass Voldemort the information that led to Vance's capture and murder?
Yes, he told the Black sisters the truth and acted for the greater good. 14 13.33%
Yes, I believe he did. Dumbledore's orders. 19 18.10%
Yes. He cared about Lily and no-one else. 13 12.38%
Maybe. This does not become clear in the text. 47 44.76%
It is of course possible but he had changed so much by then that I don't believe it. 11 10.48%
No, he would not have caused another woman's death, no way. 8 7.62%
No, he was lying to the Black sisters to gain their trust. That's what spies do. 28 26.67%
Something else Moriath forgot to mention. 12 11.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
  #1081  
Old April 11th, 2010, 2:53 am
boushh's Avatar
boushh  Female.gif boushh is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4393 days
Location: Back in Sev's Corner
Age: 47
Posts: 2,557
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Exactly. If we read it through the Harry filter, it's a true love.

Post-TPT Harry - the young man who willingly offered up his life to save the Wizarding World and succeeded - is imo the True North, the moral compass, for this series. And I don't imagine that the man he became was psychologically sick enough to name his child after a man who had a creepy obsession with his mother.

I respect Harry Potter enough to respect his final judgment on Severus Snape.
So do I. Harry comes across as having learned a heck of a lot by the point of the final duel and going to see DD's portrait that last time. By the time of the epilogue he seems like a mature father who has really reflected on what has happened to him and what he's learned. His connection to Snape and Snape's story is part of that evolution of Harry's character. Again, I find that very important.

Also, Snape's love for Lily is part of the whole notion of the power of love in the story. Take that away and the story loses some of its richness, which is part of what makes the HP series so great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
IMO, based on the above, what Severus Snape felt for Lily was love and devotion. Had he been obsessed with her he would have stalked her, or tried to get at James (being a DE, trying to kill James Potter would probably have been something others would have looked up to). Severus also never tried to harm Lily directly, and, didn't even realize until later that the prophesy he had carried to Voldemort was about her son. I explained in my previous post what his reaction to that was.
He could have done any number of things that he does not do if he was harboring an unhealthy obsession. You mention some and I'll add that the WW has spells and potions that take away ones free will. He could have used one of those, but he does not. If he had then we would have heard of it. It would be too big of a deal not to have someone mention it, IMHO.


Sponsored Links
  #1082  
Old April 11th, 2010, 3:42 am
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5013 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Also, Snape's love for Lily is part of the whole notion of the power of love in the story. Take that away and the story loses some of its richness, which is part of what makes the HP series so great.
I definitely agree. I think Snape's story is a big part of DH. We see a few redemption subplots, but TPT is the last and the most crucial. It is that information Harry uses to finally defeat Voldemort (not to mention show him up by pointing out how long Snape had been duping him. )...and it also gives us a very touching moment in the epilogue addressing House prejudices.


As for obsession, I see only one time where that word could apply, and that is Severus at 21, completely absorbed in Lily's fate and uninterested in the fate of the rest of her family. But at 38, we see him develop a regard for all human life. He's not entirely fixated on Lily: he knows she married someone else (annoying though that fact may naturally be to him) and he ultimately makes the choice to tell Harry about the final Horcrux. Going from what Severus himself knows, that would destroy the last bit of Lily on earth, but would save everyone else. IMO, in developing a conscience of his own, he learns to really love Lily and what she believed in.


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
  #1083  
Old April 11th, 2010, 6:20 am
MinervasCat's Avatar
MinervasCat  Female.gif MinervasCat is offline
Professor Snape's Most Favored House Elf
 
Joined: 4593 days
Location: Snuggled in Sevvy's pocket.
Posts: 1,558
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Yes, Iggy, and, that is what seems to be overlooked so much.

Just because Severus was a shy, awkward boy who had poor social skills and whose first approach to Lily was less than "smooth," did not make him evil. He was raised in a home where, evidentally, his mother had been a Slytherin and had probably talked up the joys of being in Slytherin House. IMO, he watched Lily and Petunia until he had worked up enough courage to approach Lily and strike up a conversation with her. Petunia's initial put-down didn't do much to bolster his courage, so, he struckout in the way he had learned to do at home, by shouting and insult.

From the description of his family life, the word "Muggle" was probably used frequently as an insult, since his mother was married to a pretty sleezy Muggle. It may also have been that Sev's mother, living in the situation that she did, did not seen all that much wrong with Voldy's plan to subdue Muggles and do away with Mudbloods. We don't know how she came to marry Mr. Snape, Sr., but, obviously it was not a "match made in Heaven." IMO, the bitterness we see in Severus was probably ten-fold in his mother. This (my conjecture only) attitude on his mother's part may have contributed to Severus' acceptance of the DEs in Slytherin and his getting involved with them. He may have been raised to just kind of go with it since he and his family were in no danger.

So, coming from this home life, his friendship with Lily was an oddity. He must have felt so taken with her, possibly as the only other magical being he'd met outside his family, that it amplified his awkwardness during their first encounter. In spite of that, they became good friends. His attraction to her even overcame the fact that she was the product of two Muggle parents.

I'm not sure Lily's idea of "best friends" was the same as Sev's, especially once they got to school. And, feeling inferior to most of the other students, he was probably racked with jealousy every time she spent time with someone else. The taunting of the Marauders did not help this. Possibly, the invention of the Levicorpus spell was for self-defense, or, possibly it was to give him his own weapon to use -- or, a little of both. Whichever, it backfired on him, which had to be twice as humiliating.

Whether Severus was actually as deep into dark magic as Sirius stated, or, whether that was just a rumor that was circulated as a put-down, I don't think we're given enough information to determine. Remember what happened to Harry through most of OotP. He and Dumbledore, one of the most powerful and respected wizards of all time, were both nearly ostracized from the wizarding community by rumor in innuendo. Whether James Potter actually fell for Lily, which is most likely, or, whether he set his cap for her to undermine Snape, which might have been part of what first interested him in her, is a topic for another thread.

Lily, as a teenage girl, had every right to chose the person she wanted to be with. Snape was, most of the time, his own worst enemy when it came to dealing with her after they reached their teens. She grew both emotionally and socially, and, he didn't.

I don't blame Lily for his decision to turn to the dark arts, and, following that, to join the DE's. Snape brought most of his own problems on himelf and the decisions he made were his and were wrong.

But, once the final break was made with Lily, he did not stalk her, try to confund her, slip her a love potion, or anything else. He was obviously not happy with their estrangement, but, he accepted it. So, IMO, he was not obsessed with her, he loved her, as best he knew how then, and, as he matured, so did that love. I like CC's idea of the chivalrous love -- a love from afar.

I think I explained what I feel happened once he found out Lily was in danger, and, about his meeting with Dumbledore in my previous posts.

I just look at Lily and Severus as two young people who were traveling through life, and, whose lives took different directions, each for their own reasons. But, once Severus realized how wrong the path he had chosen was -- and it took Lily being in danger evidentally to bring that about -- he set off on his new path, and stuck to it up to his death.


__________________

I held you in my arms, although I knew that death
Had already taken you. I held you close, hoping for a faint heartbeat or breath
To prove me wrong.
But, you were still, and could not hear or see
My grief, my tears, my heartbreak knowing that the rest of my life would be
Spent without you.
  #1084  
Old April 11th, 2010, 8:47 am
bellatrix93's Avatar
bellatrix93  Female.gif bellatrix93 is offline
Malum Veneficus
 
Joined: 4373 days
Location: The Dark Lord's HQ (Mordor) :p
Posts: 2,394
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I looked up Obsessive Love. Not 'obsession' or 'love' on their own. And I thought it some of it applied to Snape in many ways:

Obsessive Love
A painful and all consuming preoccupation with a real or wished-for lover, an insatiable longing either to posses or be possessed by the target of their obsession, rejection by or physical and/or emotional unavailability of their target and being driven to behave in self defeating ways by this rejection or unavailability.

Characteristics of obsessive love:

Obsessive lovers believe that only the person they fixate on can make them feel happy or fulfilled.

The person obsessed cannot accept the other person to be happy when they are suffering.

Potential causes:

Feelings of vulnerability or perceived failure to belong.

Inequality between the lover and the beloved. i.e the beloved maybe married / taken.


The topic is very interesting. I just chose what I felt applied to Snape's case and his feelings toward Lily. .


__________________



Thanks to my secret sigswitch maker, for the wonderful avatar and signature!


Sig/avatar pictures by Cassandra Austen.
  #1085  
Old April 11th, 2010, 10:25 am
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 4589 days
Location: Bag End
Posts: 1,605
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
I looked up Obsessive Love. Not 'obsession' or 'love' on their own. And I thought it some of it applied to Snape in many ways:

Obsessive Love
A painful and all consuming preoccupation with a real or wished-for lover, an insatiable longing either to posses or be possessed by the target of their obsession, rejection by or physical and/or emotional unavailability of their target and being driven to behave in self defeating ways by this rejection or unavailability.

Characteristics of obsessive love:

Obsessive lovers believe that only the person they fixate on can make them feel happy or fulfilled.

The person obsessed cannot accept the other person to be happy when they are suffering.

Potential causes:

Feelings of vulnerability or perceived failure to belong.

Inequality between the lover and the beloved. i.e the beloved maybe married / taken.


The topic is very interesting. I just chose what I felt applied to Snape's case and his feelings toward Lily. .
Those are extremely important points Bella, It does read as if the author looked that up and appled every single point to Snape. The definition fits him like a glove. I also like how there is no trace of condemnation in the analysis, and it is recognized and it may even be a treatable disorder.

Quote:
Org posted by MinervasCat
From the description of his family life, the word "Muggle" was probably used frequently as an insult, since his mother was married to a pretty sleezy Muggle. It may also have been that Sev's mother, living in the situation that she did, did not seen all that much wrong with Voldy's plan to subdue Muggles and do away with Mudbloods. We don't know how she came to marry Mr. Snape, Sr., but, obviously it was not a "match made in Heaven." IMO, the bitterness we see in Severus was probably ten-fold in his mother. This (my conjecture only) attitude on his mother's part may have contributed to Severus' acceptance of the DEs in Slytherin and his getting involved with them. He may have been raised to just kind of go with it since he and his family were in no danger
I have never felt comfortable with the idea that blaming the parents is an acceptable explanation for a person's mistakes. After we don't credit Snape's good points to them, so why should we blame them for a bad influence. Many people grow up with bad parents and it leads them in later life to abhor their parents actions.We all have parents and yes they do have an influence, but if you run out and shout abuse at a child it's not your mother or father's fault, it's your's. I'm sure Minerva you would not blame your parents for your faults.

Quote:
Org posted by MinervasCat
Of course Snape realized he'd damaged his soul just by being a part of Voldemort's little band. But, maybe "mercy killing" is frowned upon in the WW, and, killing another person causes more extreme damage to one's soul, unless it's self defense, than just being part of a group who does the things the DEs did. Again, the point is that Snape was concerned with his soul. IMO, this would have deterred him from murder because he was conerned for the damage it would do.
I can go along with the notion that assisted suicide is frowned upon, and not just in the WW. I don't like the idea either, I think it is very dangerous and morally wrong. Besides it's being against my religion, but I'm trying not to bring my own personal beliefs into this discussion and the Mods don't like and I don't blame them. So working from the point of a plot point, the scene me reads very like Snape being sarcastic, he is going to do what DD wants in any case and a not to subtle reminder to DD that he also has a soul. In the last two scenes with DD there is a definite flavour of banter between them. It reminds me of the banter between my parents when they used to tease each other. So no I don't think Snape was worried too much about his soul, but you do seem to have concerns. so I can only tell you that from my point of view I think Snape will be judged kindly at the appropriate time. Remember, we are judged as we judge others.

Quote:
Org posted by MinervasCat
Snape was in love with Lily, or at least the only idea of "love" that he'd had any experience with.
Org posted by snapes_witch
What you perchieve as obsession I see only a great love.
See above definition of 'obsessive love.'

Quote:
Org posted by Ignasia
I definitely agree. I think Snape's story is a big part of DH. We see a few redemption subplots, but TPT is the last and the most crucial. It is that information Harry uses to finally defeat Voldemort (not to mention show him up by pointing out how long Snape had been duping him. )...and it also gives us a very touching moment in the epilogue addressing House prejudices.
This is a great example of how two people see thing differently. I am not too fond of how Harry uses Snape in this memory. He is literally using Snape as a weapon to bludgeon LV with. I know that in war a person will use any weapon available and I don't blame Harry for using Snape in this way, but it has always struck me as overkill. It is touching in the epilogue, this is using Snape in a positive way to give comfort to a troubled child even if it is something that IMO Snape personally would have curled his lip at. I love his snark.

Quote:
Org posted by ccolinsmith
I do not recall indicating that Snape was a passive victim of peer pressure. Yes, it is his responsibility that he succumbed to the lure of the Dark Arts. However, I was discussing possible causality for why the Dark Arts had an allure.
Additionally, I do not see bitterness in the scene in Dumbledore's office. Anger that Dumbledore did something so stupid, yes. Shock that Dumbledore is asking him to kill him, yes. Bitterness? Not that I can recall.
There is no bitterness in the last scene, there is concern and banter, it's one of Snape's finest moment, but I did read real bitterness in the scenes where he is haranguing DD about Harry. Snape's redemption at this point is still a work in progress and I think he slipped back a bit here and definitely slipped back in POA. There he seems to regress to an angry, viscous teenager.

Quote:
Let's see...

7 Potters was Dumbledore's idea. And the mission succeeded. Harry arrived, alive, at the Weasleys. The other Order members were warriors putting their lives on the line to achieve that end. This is, remember, war.
The Sword can not be taken except "under conditions of need and valor" (i.e. danger).
And without dying the Forest, Voldemort would have ruled the Wizarding - and the Muggle - World.

Each instance you mention of Snape's help ultimately makes it possible for Harry to defeat Voldemort. I believe that is an end we can all support?
I'm afraid that I cannot see the 7 Potters as anything less than a disaster for the Order. They lost much more than was gained. The only positive thing that came out of it was that LV became more fixated on the wand and this distracted him from Harry and led his to acquire the Elder Wand. The thing is this plot point could have been resolved in another way, but it's JKR's book and she wrote it that way. It was a disaster but it completed a plot point,
there is nothing I can do to change it. When we come across something in the books that we personally do not like, we can't go around ignoring canon so that we can feel better. The point is in the books and that is that. It's the same thing with the so called filters. I personally feel that when a person says something in the book is not meant to be read as it appears because we have to take into account the filter, I simply feel that they are applying their own filter because they don't like how something is written. I like to think I don't fall into this trap, because I think it is a straw argument. The average person does not read any book in the supposed knowledge that there is a filter in place and the text has to be deciphered through it. That is something I am sure that JKR, Stephen King, Tolkien, Charles Dickens, Jane Austin or any of the Bronte's thought about, or inserted when they wrote their stories.
As to your other points you bring up, you are correct as far as you go with them, I agree that things had to work out a certain way and this is how it is written. I just think the 7 Potters was a case where Snape definitely had to think it through again as far as Moody went, but didn't. I don't think Harry was too happy about being nearly drowned and I don't think he was too thrilled with the idea of being a sacrificial lamb. But that in a way is my point, I don't like it that Moody got killed, George lost his ear and Harry nearly drowned, but I have to suck it up. That's the way it is and I can't superimpose a filter to change it to be more acceptable to me. I'm not to happy at the end of King Lear either, Cordelia is hanged and I cry a bucket of tears, but at least I don't go as far as some theatre presenters in the past. They rewrote the ending so that everybody lived. I think it might have been during the reign of George the First. Didn't work out, everybody went back to the original text by Shakespeare. Talk about fanfic, it went on then as well.



Last edited by eliza101; April 11th, 2010 at 10:27 am.
  #1086  
Old April 11th, 2010, 11:25 am
Tenshi's Avatar
Tenshi  Undisclosed.gif Tenshi is offline
She Who Walks Behind
 
Joined: 5434 days
Posts: 6,298
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
We can go around and around on this a million times. If you read it through the Oprah filter, it's obsession. If you read it through the Medieval literature filter, it's courtly love. If you read it through a traditional Latin or Eastern Catholic filter, it's a hagiographic devotion. If you read it through the Dante filter, it's Beatrice.

I know how I read it, and it's not through the Oprah filter.
We don't live in the middle age anymore and I apply it to today's standard and how such a behaviour is viewed during these times and not hundreds years ago. But everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I definitely agree. I think Snape's story is a big part of DH. We see a few redemption subplots, but TPT is the last and the most crucial. It is that information Harry uses to finally defeat Voldemort (not to mention show him up by pointing out how long Snape had been duping him. )...and it also gives us a very touching moment in the epilogue addressing House prejudices.
To be honest I don't see how Snape's story helped Harry defeat Voldemort. He could've done without hearing it, afterall it was only sheer luck Harry was there at that moment to see him die and it was a coincidence that he went to check on him. He easily could have run away and left him dying there without ever seeing the memory.


__________________


The End of the Dream.
  #1087  
Old April 11th, 2010, 11:54 am
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 4589 days
Location: Bag End
Posts: 1,605
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
We don't live in the middle age anymore and I apply it to today's standard and how such a behaviour is viewed during these times and not hundreds years ago. But everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

To be honest I don't see how Snape's story helped Harry defeat Voldemort. He could've done without hearing it, afterall it was only sheer luck Harry was there at that moment to see him die and it was a coincidence that he went to check on him. He easily could have run away and left him dying there without ever seeing the memory.
I to have always wondered at how JKR brings the element of chance into the story here. It is pure chance that Harry is there to catch the memories. I can understand why he watchd them. In many ways it echoes DD's question to Snape in the hilltop memory. JKR really hammers home the paralells in this chapter. So many of them are grouped together. Harry echoing DD's question to Snape about what he would give him in return for saving Lily. Snape's silence at both points when he is presented with a clear choice of how he is going to live his life, Lily's statement about becoming a DE and DD's question. These occor only a page apart, I don't think it is coincidence. When Snape calls Lily a Mudblood it directly echoes Draco's name calling to Hermione. It is like this chapter is one big echo chamber showing where and how Snape fell and then how he started to painfully and hestitantly came to climb out of the pit. I like how she shows this but it doesn't change Snape's snarkiness and it doesn't present him as a hollow plaster saint either. Snape has many, many faults but he never denies them and he never excuses them. But despite this we are never in any doubt that he has his regrets and he is brave. I just wish he had laughed at least once in the books.


  #1088  
Old April 11th, 2010, 8:07 pm
boushh's Avatar
boushh  Female.gif boushh is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4393 days
Location: Back in Sev's Corner
Age: 47
Posts: 2,557
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Actually, I don't think obsessive love fits the bill for me either. If he wanted to possess her he could have tried any number of times even while he was in school and we aren't told that he did. I don't even believe that he went to Dumbledore in an attempt to possess Lily, or have her for himself by letting her husband and child die. That was something Dumbledore assumed on the hilltop. I never read his actions that way. However, it may have been a comment (and DD's following "You disgust me.") that hit him hard. If he was obsessively in love with her and wanted to possess her then I don't feel he would have gone to Dumbledore at all. At the very least I don't think he would have agreed to protect her family so quickly. If all he wanted was to have her I think things would have played out differently.

Personally, I think he was desperate to protect her because he loved her, not have her for himself. I don't see this as being that different than others in the series who want to help or protect their loved ones. I think he was indifferent towards the lives of others that he personally did not have any reason to care for. I just don't think that had to do with his feelings for Lily. I think it had more to do with how he was neglected as a child. I also think that in the following years he grew to care for all human life. I could post canon references, but I honestly don't want to make a huge post. Suffice it to say, this is my interpretation of the text, and to me it works best with the conclusion of the series and how Harry has grown and matured. The people who knew of Snape's love for Lily (Dumbledore and Harry) did not look upon it in a negative context, but as something moving and powerful, IMHO. That's how I look at it as well.


  #1089  
Old April 12th, 2010, 7:19 pm
ccollinsmith's Avatar
ccollinsmith  Female.gif ccollinsmith is offline
Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!
 
Joined: 3709 days
Location: The Village
Posts: 2,273
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
We don't live in the middle age anymore and I apply it to today's standard and how such a behaviour is viewed during these times and not hundreds years ago. But everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
We may not live in the Medieval period, but the series is utilizing many Medieval literary motifs. I judge the behavior by its literary antecedents - and by the fully informed hero's final verdict. "Informed Harry" called it "love."

If some wish to believe that the hero named his child after a creepy obsessive, they are welcome to do so. I personally have more respect for "Informed Harry" than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
To be honest I don't see how Snape's story helped Harry defeat Voldemort. He could've done without hearing it, afterall it was only sheer luck Harry was there at that moment to see him die and it was a coincidence that he went to check on him. He easily could have run away and left him dying there without ever seeing the memory.
We can certainly discuss the element of "chance" in the retrieval of the memories. That is certainly a valid question. But it is certainly not true that Harry could have defeated Voldemort without knowing that he needed to sacrifice himself in order to defeat Voldemort - something that he learned only from the memories. Snape was actively seeking Harry to try to give him this information when he was killed.

At any rate, had Harry never known that information, he would have continued to fight Voldemort, the piece of Voldemort's soul in Harry would not have been destroyed, and Voldemort would not have been defeated.

I personally don't think it's "chance" but "providence" that brings Harry and Snape together in the moments before Snape's death and that causes Harry to stay by Snape's side. But then, I believe that JKR is writing the story from an essentially Christian worldview - a point which she, actually, has verified. Of course, how that worldview plays out in the retrieval of the memories (or in any of the other things that were "too easy") is a matter of interpretation. I have stated my interpretation.


__________________



Hogsmeade Awards 2013: Voted #1 - Biggest Cat Lover | Voted #2 - Most Creative Member |
Voted #2 - Most Likely to Make a Doctor Who Reference


VIVA LA GLITTELUTION!
  #1090  
Old April 12th, 2010, 7:42 pm
snapes_witch's Avatar
snapes_witch  Female.gif snapes_witch is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5237 days
Location: afternoon tea at Granny's
Posts: 2,973
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Were Severus Snape the obsessed murderous DE (and cunning Slytherin) it seems to me it would have simple matter for him to murder Potter before the marriage to Lily. At that point the obsessed genius potioneer would give Lily his own superior love potion; they marry and live happily ever after. There's no Harry Potter, Voldemort attacks the Longbottoms, and the story is Neville Longbottom and the Philosopher's Stone!


__________________

SEVERUS SNAPE
HEADMASTER
HOGWARTS SCHOOL OF WITCHCRAFT AND WIZARDRY
1997-98

REQUIESCAT IN PACE
9 JANUARY, 1960 - 2 MAY, 1998
  #1091  
Old April 12th, 2010, 7:58 pm
bellatrix93's Avatar
bellatrix93  Female.gif bellatrix93 is offline
Malum Veneficus
 
Joined: 4373 days
Location: The Dark Lord's HQ (Mordor) :p
Posts: 2,394
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by boushh View Post
Actually, I don't think obsessive love fits the bill for me either. If he wanted to possess her he could have tried any number of times even while he was in school and we aren't told that he did.
In my opinion he most certainly tries to obsess her. During one of their conversation in TPT, he says :

The Prince's Tale"You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to --- I won't let you.."
"Let me? Let me?"
Lily's bright green eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.


I think Snape tried. But Lily wasn't the sort of person who'd accept such a thing.


__________________



Thanks to my secret sigswitch maker, for the wonderful avatar and signature!


Sig/avatar pictures by Cassandra Austen.
  #1092  
Old April 12th, 2010, 7:59 pm
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 6043 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I think it's rather odd that Snape is expected to be so magnanimous and highly evolved at age 17-20 when everyone is almost completely self-absorbed with themselves and their own small circles of friends. The Marauders worked for the Order, but all their plans circled around each other and they didn't even want to include Dumbledore! Harry of all the characters had extreme likes and dislikes towards others even though he is the heroic main character. When he has free time he isn't thinking about the fate of everyone in the world - he is worrying about Ginny and watching her on the Marauders Map.

In my opinion, young love is often self-absorbed and slightly obsessive, especially in the context of these books. If Snape had stolen the Marauders Map and watched Lily on it, would that make him a creepy obsessive? He didn't have a map, but Harry watched Ginny, and James probably watched Lily, so what are they?

What about the Ron/Hermione/Lavender triangle - they were all distracted/angry/overly emotional. We can't call one character obsessive without labeling them all obsessive, but none of them were murderously jealous like the Bloody Baron and the Gray Lady - now they had real problems!


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #1093  
Old April 12th, 2010, 8:11 pm
ccollinsmith's Avatar
ccollinsmith  Female.gif ccollinsmith is offline
Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!
 
Joined: 3709 days
Location: The Village
Posts: 2,273
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
In my opinion he most certainly tries to obsess her. During one of their conversation in TPT, he says :

The Prince's Tale"You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to --- I won't let you.."
"Let me? Let me?"
Lily's bright green eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.


I think Snape tried. But Lily wasn't the sort of person who'd accept such a thing.
The irony with using that specific example is that Snape probably would have said "I won't let you" to anybody (male or female) who was trying to suggest that James Potter was a hero in the Werewolf Incident.

"I won't let you try to tell me that he saved my life when I know that all he did was try to save his own skin!" is how I've always read the line. Whether young Severus' interpretation of James' actions is fair or not is another matter entirely.

So that doesn't seem like a great example of obsession or possessiveness to me. Lily interprets it that way, I think. But more likely than not, Snape would have said the same thing to anyone who made the suggestion Lily was making. He later says it in so many words to Harry, in fact. And I would imagine he gave Dumbledore a piece of his mind about giving Harry the "shiny James" interpretation of the event.


__________________



Hogsmeade Awards 2013: Voted #1 - Biggest Cat Lover | Voted #2 - Most Creative Member |
Voted #2 - Most Likely to Make a Doctor Who Reference


VIVA LA GLITTELUTION!
  #1094  
Old April 12th, 2010, 11:43 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5241 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by boushh View Post
If he was obsessively in love with her and wanted to possess her then I don't feel he would have gone to Dumbledore at all. At the very least I don't think he would have agreed to protect her family so quickly. If all he wanted was to have her I think things would have played out differently.Personally, I think he was desperate to protect her because he loved her, not have her for himself.
I agree, boushh! I think that if possessing Lily was Severus' goal in going to Dumbledore, then he would not have asked Dumbledore to "Hide them all, then." I think this shows that Severus was primarily concerned for Lily's life but not to possess her, as this request could never lead to such an eventuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
What an obessesive factory Hogwarts is turning into. It's almost like a school filled with teenagers bursting with hormones.
OotP and HBP anyone!



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; April 13th, 2010 at 12:28 am.
  #1095  
Old April 12th, 2010, 11:46 pm
Krums_Girl  Female.gif Krums_Girl is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3839 days
Location: SleepyTown
Age: 25
Posts: 292
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I agree, boushh! I think that if possessing Lily was Severus' goal in going to Dumbledore, then he would not have asked Dumbledore to "Hide them all, then." I think this shows that Severus was primaraly concerned for Lily's life but not to possess her, as this request could never lead to such an eventuality.


OotP and HBP anyone!
I think that Snape asked Dumbledore to "Hide them all, then." was not because he was really did not want to possess her, it was because he knew that Dumbledore would not help him if all he really cared about was Lily.


__________________
Pottermore: FelicisRose142
Wand: Laurel, Phoenix Feather Core, 10 Inches, "Unyielding"
House: Hufflepuff (wuuuut?)


Deathly Hallows Part 2 almost made me a Snape-fan. . .almost. But then I re-read Deathly Hallows and I came back to my senses and the world was the way it's supposed to be.
  #1096  
Old April 12th, 2010, 11:53 pm
Slartibartfast's Avatar
Slartibartfast  Female.gif Slartibartfast is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 3658 days
Location: Magrathea
Age: 38
Posts: 971
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krums_Girl View Post
I think that Snape asked Dumbledore to "Hide them all, then." was not because he was really did not want to possess her, it was because he knew that Dumbledore would not help him if all he really cared about was Lily.
I dont really think so. Dumbledore's comments snap Snape out of it. He considers Dumbldore's comments. Especially the one that went something like "You dont care about her feelings as long as you get what you want?" That really made Snape pause. If one truly obsesses, one doesnt care about what the object of the obsession feels as long as one gets that object. Snape considers this and realizes how foolish he sounded. Thus he responds with "Save them all." I think he realized if Voldy had granted his request, Lily would never ever be happy. He changes to I Want My Beloved To Be Happy.


__________________


Pottermore: PatronusBat
Please do not add me on Pottermore without owling me first! Or else my wand will speak for me!
  #1097  
Old April 13th, 2010, 12:20 am
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5241 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krums_Girl View Post
I think that Snape asked Dumbledore to "Hide them all, then." was not because he was really did not want to possess her, it was because he knew that Dumbledore would not help him if all he really cared about was Lily.
Harry didn't seem to think for one moment that Snape ever wanted to possess his mother.

"Snape's Patronus was a doe,'said Harry, 'the same as my mother's because he loved her for all of his life, from the time when they were children. You should have realised,' he said as he saw Voldemort's nostrils flare, ' he asked you to spare her life didn't he?"

'He desired her that was all sneered Voldemort, 'but when she had gone, he agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier of him -'
'Of course he told you that,' said Harry, 'but he was Dumbledore's spy from the moment you threatened her, and he's been working against you ever since!
(DH, The Flaw in The Plan)



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; April 13th, 2010 at 12:29 am.
  #1098  
Old April 13th, 2010, 12:25 am
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 5560 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I just deleted a bunch of posts that had the lovely and always exciting problems with sarcasm, sarcastic responses to sarcasm, responses to sarcastic posts that were deleted ,discussion of whether using sarcasm when discussing sarcastic characters is okay, and just general off topic stuff.


__________________


avatar artwork by Ruth Sanderson
  #1099  
Old April 13th, 2010, 12:35 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
Registered Animagus
 
Joined: 5448 days
Location: Sev's Wine Cellar
Age: 61
Posts: 4,552
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krums_Girl View Post
I think that Snape asked Dumbledore to "Hide them all, then." was not because he was really did not want to possess her, it was because he knew that Dumbledore would not help him if all he really cared about was Lily.
I find it hard to believe that Snape thought Albus would really just leave the Potters in danger and not tell them Voldy was after them. I've always felt that the pause he makes before replying 'Anything' is because he's shocked Albus is asking for 'payment' - I know 'I' was, after all - he has just given info that Voldy has decided to kill the one that a prophecy says might possibly be able to defeat Voldy.

The very idea that Snape might think Albus wouldn't try to protect this prophesied one (once Snape tells him who is targeted) is quite far-fetched to me. I realize JKR has Albus accuse Snape of only worrying about Lily - but Snape was a smart guy and a logical thinker - I believe he was shocked when Albus implied he wouldn't protect any of them without Snape somehow 'paying' for it. Snape went there fully-suspecting he might die before even getting the important info out.

HOW can he then be hoping to end up possessing Lily if he's admitting to being a DE to the leader of the 'Light'? It's almost a foregone conclusion that he would expect to be sent to Azkaban at the end of the 'meeting'

He's focused on Lily alone because she's the only one who matters to him - but IF he wanted to 'have' her then going to Albus would be the wrong way to 'get' her. He cannot sensibly think that if he tells Albus that Voldy has chosen Lily's son that Albus would then allow the child of prophecy to simply be killed off. IF JKR expected us to believe that, then I find her own logic flawed. Of course Albus would hide the whole family - and I think Snape fully expected him to do so. He only mentions Lily because SHE's the one who matters to him and so she's the one he's focused on - but surely one cannot be expected to believe that the leader of the light wouldn't hide the rest of her family with her.


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; April 13th, 2010 at 12:38 am.
  #1100  
Old April 13th, 2010, 12:56 am
Slytherin_12  Female.gif Slytherin_12 is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 3618 days
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 104
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Actually, a page or two back, was quite interesting.

Especially when it came to the whole love aspect (obsessive, devoted, true love). I'll have to admit he fits in the "devoted" and "truly loved". He would never cared about Lily for that long, if it was an obsession as well as all the other opinions on it all. Obsessions, by my experience, don't last very long. There may be a burst of activity obsessing over something, then it's out of your grasp. Snape wasn't like this.

And as for the Dark Arts interest: I think he got into it, curious about it, and felt attracted to it. Not that he was pressured into liking it, or anything.
For those who think he was pressured: Do you know (or, better yet, think) he must have had an already thirst for the Dark Arts?
(not trying to viciously attack you guys here, if it comes across like that in any way)

Quote:
Also, Snape's love for Lily is part of the whole notion of the power of love in the story. Take that away and the story loses some of its richness, which is part of what makes the HP series so great.
Definitely.
Plus, it shows the deepness of the whole story.


__________________
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks

Tags
character analysis, severus snape


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:04 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright its respective owners.