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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14



View Poll Results: Did Snape pass Voldemort the information that led to Vance's capture and murder?
Yes, he told the Black sisters the truth and acted for the greater good. 14 13.33%
Yes, I believe he did. Dumbledore's orders. 19 18.10%
Yes. He cared about Lily and no-one else. 13 12.38%
Maybe. This does not become clear in the text. 47 44.76%
It is of course possible but he had changed so much by then that I don't believe it. 11 10.48%
No, he would not have caused another woman's death, no way. 8 7.62%
No, he was lying to the Black sisters to gain their trust. That's what spies do. 28 26.67%
Something else Moriath forgot to mention. 12 11.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #61  
Old January 27th, 2010, 11:01 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
"Maybe this is all a big plan and Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him to further the cause".
No. They could instead ask themselves, 'I can't believe Dumbledore would be fooled by a DE for 16 years. I can't believe we are following a man who could not see through a known DE's loyalty. I think we should ask Dumbledore what happened, once his portrait comes up.'

I am quite sure Dumbledore would not reveal Snape's true loyalty; all it would show is that the other Order members thought better of their own leader, until he said otherwise.

I wonder if it did it not occur to them that to follow such a leader who would embrace any DE who came with a story of remorse into the Order and allowed them to mingle with other Order members could be dangerous?

They were IMO doing Dumbledore great disservice by accepting so easily that Snape was a DE.

They always suspected Snape to be a DE and put up with him only for Dumbledore's sake. This shows poor trust in Dumbledore IMO. Two, they believed Dumbledore could be fooled. Again, this shows poor trust in the man they were following in a fight that could lead to their death. I think it reflects on order members like Lupin, Kingsley, McGonagall, Tonks and others IMO.

=============
From the Marauder's thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I would hope that he did feel remorse and guilt even though we never actually hear him say so.
I thought that's what his story was all about. Remorse and redemption IMO.


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  #62  
Old January 27th, 2010, 12:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
No. They could instead ask themselves, 'I can't believe Dumbledore would be fooled by a DE for 16 years. I can't believe we are following a man who could not see through a known DE's loyalty. I think we should ask Dumbledore what happened, once his portrait comes up.'

I am quite sure Dumbledore would not reveal Snape's true loyalty; all it would show is that the other Order members thought better of their own leader, until he said otherwise.

I wonder if it did it not occur to them that to follow such a leader who would embrace any DE who came with a story of remorse into the Order and allowed them to mingle with other Order members could be dangerous?

They were IMO doing Dumbledore great disservice by accepting so easily that Snape was a DE.

They always suspected Snape to be a DE and put up with him only for Dumbledore's sake. This shows poor trust in Dumbledore IMO. Two, they believed Dumbledore could be fooled. Again, this shows poor trust in the man they were following in a fight that could lead to their death. I think it reflects on order members like Lupin, Kingsley, McGonagall, Tonks and others IMO.

=============
From the Marauder's thread



I thought that's what his story was all about. Remorse and redemption IMO.
The Order believed what DD and Snape worked very hard to make them believe. It is quite possible that McGonagall and the other teachers when they had to time to sit and think, did think that it couldn't be the way it looked. That DD could not have been fooled for so long, heck I thought it when I read the scene. But then Snape comes back under the new regime as Headmaster, the Carrows are there and his position is endorsed by the new powers at the MOM. What the heck were the teachers supposed to think? Now I may think that Snape could have taken McGonagall into his confidence and DD's portrait could have backed him up, but what I think doesn't matter in this instance. What counts is that it is not presented in canon that way. It had to be that way for the big reveal about Snape to actually be a big reveal.


  #63  
Old January 27th, 2010, 1:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I was also surprised by Snape flying. The last two books seemed to keep adding more super amazing powers to Snape's repetoir.
Iím a bit puzzled by this Ė could you give me some examples of the addition powers Snape was given iyo in the last 2 books so I can see where youíre coming from please.


On the question of Snapeís powers v his repentance being the cause of Dumbledoreís trust in him - I am very firmly of the belief that it was his repentance that was the cause of Dumbledoreís trust in him. In all honesty I think he could have been a squib and Dumbledore would still have trusted him as much if he had repented in the same way.
While I am not a Christian I recognise the JKR is and I can see many links between the ethics demonstrated in the HP series & some ethics in Christianity. I know some are uncomfortable with the idea of Dumbledore trusting him as much, or more depending on your interpretation, as someone who had not strayed but to me the ĎSevís repentanceí plot parallels the parable of the lost son (perhaps even with other order members paralleling the son who didnít stray ) In Sevís case I think Luke 15:7 is very apt. (not sure if that is part of the parable or not but is near it it ) ĎI say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.í While I understand that some might feel uncomfortable with it I think that the idea is that it is often harder to come back that it is never to leave, be that ones friends, family or a path of moral behaviour. Of course I may have misinterpreted that Ė I am after all not a Christian & they may interpret it differently

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Snape is known for irony. "Lately" to Snape actually could mean for well over a decade... and probably does, given that it's highly unlikely that he was watching people die in the years when Voldemort was not in power.
irony aside thought perception of time changes dramatically as we age. Lately could be quite recent for a young person but it could mean a much longer amout of time for an adult, (The amount of times I've saide 'recently' only to realise I'm refering to something a decade previously is very scary )

Quote:
The point of his statement is not so much about duration but about saving people. He actively saves all the people he is able to - which is probably more than your average Wizard or Muggle ever does.
On both counts!

I also think it is more a sign the Severus hasn't forgotten where he was as a DE - I think that memory stays with partly becasue of the horror of what he once was, to remind him how much he has changed and to help him stay changed / stop him having a relapse.


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  #64  
Old January 27th, 2010, 1:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
While I am not a Christian I recognise the JKR is and I can see many links between the ethics demonstrated in the HP series & some ethics in Christianity. I know some are uncomfortable with the idea of Dumbledore trusting him as much, or more depending on your interpretation, as someone who had not strayed but to me the ĎSevís repentanceí plot parallels the parable of the lost son (perhaps even with other order members paralleling the son who didnít stray )
This parallel struck me also. Particularly as we have Dumbledore saying of Severus to the Wizengamot:
'However he rejoined our side...' (GoF, The Pensieve)
He was lost, but then was found.


  #65  
Old January 27th, 2010, 1:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
The Order believed what DD and Snape worked very hard to make them believe. It is quite possible that McGonagall and the other teachers when they had to time to sit and think, did think that it couldn't be the way it looked. That DD could not have been fooled for so long, heck I thought it when I read the scene. But then Snape comes back under the new regime as Headmaster, the Carrows are there and his position is endorsed by the new powers at the MOM. What the heck were the teachers supposed to think? Now I may think that Snape could have taken McGonagall into his confidence and DD's portrait could have backed him up, but what I think doesn't matter in this instance. What counts is that it is not presented in canon that way. It had to be that way for the big reveal about Snape to actually be a big reveal.
Good point eliza - also for all we know the other teachers did talk to Dumbledore's portrait and Dumbledore let them believe that he had been fooled - after all any other answer could very easily have jepordised Sev's position and his life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
This parallel struck me also. Particularly as we have Dumbledore saying of Severus to the Wizengamot:
'However he rejoined our side...' (GoF, The Pensieve)
He was lost, but then was found.

Yes it is that last thing the father says when his other son gets angry that is the clincher for me too!

"'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found'" (Luke 15:11-32).


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  #66  
Old January 27th, 2010, 1:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Great Post KItt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
In my view, more and more powers kept being added to Snape, especially in the final two books, and my question is Why?
I don't think more powers were added in the last two Books. Snape was an accomplished Legillimens and Occlumens, knew Dark Arts, Potions, DADA, Duelling, Logical reasoning. In the last Book he could fly. I think in the last 2 Books an importance was given to Snape's magical prowess since Snape's true role needed to be revealed IMO.

Quote:
posted by Eliza101
It is quite possible that McGonagall and the other teachers when they had to time to sit and think, did think that it couldn't be the way it looked. That DD could not have been fooled for so long, heck I thought it when I read the scene.
I hope they did. This is what canon says.

HBP - The Phoenix's Lament'Snape,' repeated McGonagall faintly, falling into the chair. 'We all wondered .... but he trusted ....always .... Snape .... I can't believe it.'

......

'He always hinted he had an iron clad reason for trusting Snape,' muttered Professor McGonagall....

'I mean with Snape's history ... of course people were bound to wonder .... but Dumbledore told me explicitly that Snape's repentance was absolutely genuine ... wouldn't hear a word against him.'

.....

'Snape passed information that made Voldemort hunt down my mum and dad. Then Snape told Dumbledore that he hadn't realised what he was doing, he was really sorry he had done it, sorry that they were dead.'

'And Dumbledore believed that?' said Lupin incredulously. 'Dumbeldore believed Snape was sorry James was dead? Snape hated James ...'


============

Taking the last paragraph I was stuck by one thing as I copied it out. Dumbledore told Harry that Snape felt deep remorse for both Lily and James. The remorse Snape felt according to Harry was for the deaths of both his parents, not just Lily. I wonder if Dumbledore understood that by Snape coming to meet him on the hill, he was wanting to protect all the Potters instead of Lily.


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  #67  
Old January 27th, 2010, 1:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
'Snape passed information that made Voldemort hunt down my mum and dad. Then Snape told Dumbledore that he hadn't realised what he was doing, he was really sorry he had done it, sorry that they were dead.'

'And Dumbledore believed that?' said Lupin incredulously. 'Dumbeldore believed Snape was sorry James was dead? Snape hated James ...' [/fieldset]

============

Taking the last paragraph I was stuck by one thing as I copied it out. Dumbledore told Harry that Snape felt deep remorse for both Lily and James. The remorse Snape felt according to Harry was for the deaths of both his parents, not just Lily. I wonder if Dumbledore understood that by Snape coming to meet him on the hill, he was wanting to protect all the Potters instead of Lily.
No, thats a step too far for me, Greenwoods. The thing is we are all agreed that Snape was redeemed. To be redeemed there has to be something to be redeemed from. At the time on the hill I firmly believe that the only thought in Snape's head was saving Lily. He changed after time, I also believe that, but for me, the important word is change. He had to change from something into something else. The redemption arc doesn't work if there was nothing to change.


  #68  
Old January 27th, 2010, 2:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

IMO, the reason for Dumbledore's trusting Snape the way he did went back to the stormy night on the hill. Having taken a similar path in his youth, as ccollinsmith pointed out, I think Dumbledore recognized true remorse and a desparate need to try to set things right. Lily's death sealed this even more. Dumbledore, as a Legilimens, would have been able to penetrate Snape's thoughts, especially at a time when he was weakened by remorse. Since canon does not state this, it is only my speculation. But, Dumbledore, IMO would have used all of his powers to verify Severus' loyalties. There was way too much at stake not to.


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  #69  
Old January 27th, 2010, 2:28 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
No, thats a step too far for me, Greenwoods. The thing is we are all agreed that Snape was redeemed. To be redeemed there has to be something to be redeemed from. At the time on the hill I firmly believe that the only thought in Snape's head was saving Lily. He changed after time, I also believe that, but for me, the important word is change. He had to change from something into something else. The redemption arc doesn't work if there was nothing to change.
Dumbledore believed it and told Harry in Book 6. I think there is something in it. I don't know when Dumbledore started believing this; I think it could be on the hill, because of Snape's attitude there, which would have convinced Dumbledore about his intentions IMO.


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  #70  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
The Order believed what DD and Snape worked very hard to make them believe. It is quite possible that McGonagall and the other teachers when they had to time to sit and think, did think that it couldn't be the way it looked. That DD could not have been fooled for so long, heck I thought it when I read the scene. But then Snape comes back under the new regime as Headmaster, the Carrows are there and his position is endorsed by the new powers at the MOM. What the heck were the teachers supposed to think? Now I may think that Snape could have taken McGonagall into his confidence and DD's portrait could have backed him up, but what I think doesn't matter in this instance. What counts is that it is not presented in canon that way. It had to be that way for the big reveal about Snape to actually be a big reveal.
I agree that the other teachers have good reason to believe he's truly a Death Eater and that they acted accordingly.

Upthread I discussed the reasons I don't think McGonnagall or the other teachers could have been brought into confidence by Snape/DD's portrait. The key reason is that no matter how trustworthy they are (and they are trustworthy), they are not accomplished in Occlumency. Therefore, it would be very bad indeed for them to know of Snape's real mission. The mission could be compromised if a skilled Legilimens (say, Voldemort) got into a position to question one of them. Even Hogwarts' protections, as we know from HBP, are not infallible.

So I personally am of the opinion that it was crucial for them to believe he was truly a Death Eater. And this would be standard spy stuff. The fewer people who know of the mission, the less chance for the mission to be compromised. So I think Rowling does this for more reasons than just the big reveal - though the big reveal is a good motivation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
No, thats a step too far for me, Greenwoods. The thing is we are all agreed that Snape was redeemed. To be redeemed there has to be something to be redeemed from. At the time on the hill I firmly believe that the only thought in Snape's head was saving Lily. He changed after time, I also believe that, but for me, the important word is change. He had to change from something into something else. The redemption arc doesn't work if there was nothing to change.
I would agree with this.


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  #71  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:36 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I agree that the other teachers have good reason to believe he's truly a Death Eater and that they acted accordingly.

Upthread I discussed the reasons I don't think McGonnagall or the other teachers could have been brought into confidence by Snape/DD's portrait. The key reason is that no matter how trustworthy they are (and they are trustworthy), they are not accomplished in Occlumency. Therefore, it would be very bad indeed for them to know of Snape's real mission. The mission could be compromised if a skilled Legilimens (say, Voldemort) got into a position to question one of them. Even Hogwarts' protections, as we know from HBP, are not infallible.

So I personally am of the opinion that it was crucial for them to believe he was truly a Death Eater. And this would be standard spy stuff. The fewer people who know of the mission, the less chance for the mission to be compromised. So I think Rowling does this for more reasons than just the big reveal - though the big reveal is a good motivation.



I would agree with this.
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  #72  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

It's a shame that Severus couldn't share his part in DD's plan with Minerva. I think, as I said previously, that they were close and I hat to think how much it must have cost him emotionally to have to hear her call him "coward."


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Old January 27th, 2010, 4:46 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Good news, my temperature is normal.
Maybe our collective fever was yesterday, and today we're all back to normal?

Of course, here at least, the day is still young.


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  #74  
Old February 1st, 2010, 2:52 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

From the Lily Ė Severus thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
1. How does Severus know that the Marauders sneak out at night? Shouldn't he have been in the Slytherin Common room or even tucked up safely in his bed? If he does know that the Marauders are sneaking out then it has to be that he is following them. Confirming Sirius' statement that he got so fed up with Snape's sneaking around
Well in a world full of magic I think there could be many other ways of him knowing that information. He could simply have got the information from a ghost or a portrait, or he could have had access to some magic that allowed him to find out. The fact that he knew does not mean that he could only have found out one way esp when the series provides us with 3 known ways to find that information (marauders map, ghosts, portraits) as well as pointing to the fact that there are other ways we donít know about (how did Dumbledore know Harry was not only not at Privet Drive when he sent out book lists but he also knew that he was staying at he Burrows for example)

Please note I am not saying Sev never followed the marauders, or that this was not the way he found out the information Ė I am simply saying that the reasoning that if he knew he must have been following does not work in a world with magic (or technology for that mater! )


Quote:
2. Why is Severus so concerned with Remus? Does his suspicions warrant his actions? IMO, no. Remus is not hurting him and what Remus does in his absence from school once a month is not any of Severus' business. This inquisitiveness on his part has never sat well with me.
We know he had a reason Ė he believed that Remus was a dangerous dark creature (which he was).You donít have to like his reason but it did exist.

Quote:
Now as to Snape's assumption that the Marauder's were working as a group in an attempt to murder him. These are schoolchildren, not Murder Inc.
They were also a gang and gangs do work together. Murder may have overstated the point a little but he believes that James got cold feet and that James acted as he did to save his friends not to save Severus. Now I am more than willing to agree that many will not view it in the same light but in all honesty I canít help feeling that James may well have been more interested in stopping his friends becoming killers & getting expelled (if it is indeed possible to be expelled from Hogwarts Ė personally Iím fairly sceptical about that atm ) I canít help feeling that there is at least a grain of truth in Sevís belief that James was trying to save his friends Ė jmho

Quote:
The thought never seems to cross his mind that it was a murder attempt when he goes into the tunnel, it only occurs after James has risked his life to save him?
Well if murder attempts could be spotted before they were actually enacted the murder rate would drop dramatically! Iíve said it before Sev could easily have thought that Sirius wouldnít have given him the information if it had been that dangerous. This would have sparked more curiosity not less imo and in all honesty one doesnít really think anyone one actually knows is a potential murderer even when we really donít like them Ė we just donít expect that of people unless they appear to have tried to kill us or someone else of course.


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  #75  
Old February 1st, 2010, 3:16 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
They were also a gang and gangs do work together.
Quite aside from generalizations, the facts of the case suggest cooperation.

1) Sirius knew how to get into the Willow. As this was not information provided to all students by the staff, the information had a source. My own faculty of logic tells me that source was named Remus Lupin.

I know of a reason other than the plot to lure Sev into danger for why Remus would have told his friends. Young Sev was not aware of this other reason. (That the Marauders were Animagi and paid visits to their werewolf friend, that is).

2) James knew what was happening, and knew how to get in as well.

The only Marauder not implicated to some degree by these two facts is Peter.


Quote:
I canít help feeling that there is at least a grain of truth in Sevís belief that James was trying to save his friends Ė jmho
We are not given any evidence to the contrary, certainly. I find it reasonable that Sev would have believed this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Now I am more than willing to agree that many will not view it in the same light but in all honesty I canít help feeling that James may well have been more interested in stopping his friends becoming killers & getting expelled (if it is indeed possible to be expelled from Hogwarts Ė personally Iím fairly sceptical about that atm )
We know it can happen (Hagrid). So it would seem the prerequisite is that someone has to die.


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  #76  
Old February 1st, 2010, 4:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
From the Lily Ė Severus thread



Well in a world full of magic I think there could be many other ways of him knowing that information. He could simply have got the information from a ghost or a portrait, or he could have had access to some magic that allowed him to find out. The fact that he knew does not mean that he could only have found out one way esp when the series provides us with 3 known ways to find that information (marauders map, ghosts, portraits) as well as pointing to the fact that there are other ways we donít know about (how did Dumbledore know Harry was not only not at Privet Drive when he sent out book lists but he also knew that he was staying at he Burrows for example)

Please note I am not saying Sev never followed the marauders, or that this was not the way he found out the information Ė I am simply saying that the reasoning that if he knew he must have been following does not work in a world with magic (or technology for that mater! )




We know he had a reason Ė he believed that Remus was a dangerous dark creature (which he was).You donít have to like his reason but it did exist.



They were also a gang and gangs do work together. Murder may have overstated the point a little but he believes that James got cold feet and that James acted as he did to save his friends not to save Severus. Now I am more than willing to agree that many will not view it in the same light but in all honesty I canít help feeling that James may well have been more interested in stopping his friends becoming killers & getting expelled (if it is indeed possible to be expelled from Hogwarts Ė personally Iím fairly sceptical about that atm ) I canít help feeling that there is at least a grain of truth in Sevís belief that James was trying to save his friends Ė jmho



Well if murder attempts could be spotted before they were actually enacted the murder rate would drop dramatically! Iíve said it before Sev could easily have thought that Sirius wouldnít have given him the information if it had been that dangerous. This would have sparked more curiosity not less imo and in all honesty one doesnít really think anyone one actually knows is a potential murderer even when we really donít like them Ė we just donít expect that of people unless they appear to have tried to kill us or someone else of course.
You state your case very well except that I cannot under any circumstances see the Marauders as probable murderers. Remus was at the school under Dumbledore's aegis and that was good enough for every student except Snape. Remus was dangerous 1-2 days out of every month and steps had been taken to keep that danger well away from the other students. Frankly it was none of Snape's business what Remus was doing on those days and I have to say that he should have stayed out of it completely. That however does not make Sirius' actions palatable in any way, but I do not believe he meant murder and if Snape did believe that, then it says more about his thought processes at that time than it does about Sirius.

I am not so naive as to think that gangs do not exist, I live down from a school that is rife with them. Nasty as some of those children are at times I don't believe that they are a bunch of would be murderers either. Think about what this means if true. Dumbledore let a gang of children roam his school who would not stop at killing another student. That he would sanction murder rather than take appropriate steps. IMO,Snape hated the Marauders and he projected his feelings of hate onto them. I cannot forget that he devised the Sectumsepra spell for his enemies, that says a lot about him while he was going to school. Snape, the schoolboy needed a lot of help, help he never got. Snape the man evolved from that troubled boy and became someone to admire, but there had to be a lot of evolution in the process. All of this is of course my opinion only.


  #77  
Old February 1st, 2010, 5:00 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treacle Tartlet
This parallel struck me also. Particularly as we have Dumbledore saying of Severus to the Wizengamot:
'However he rejoined our side...' (GoF, The Pensieve)
He was lost, but then was found.
Yes it is that last thing the father says when his other son gets angry that is the clincher for me too!

"'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found'" (Luke 15:11-32).
Yes, I notice the Prodigal Son didn't need 20 years of proving himself before he was seen as changed. He was accepted because he got back on the path by himself. If someone has to drag you back to the right path then that change doesn't come from within. But Snape made his own choice. That fits with Harry's statement to Voldemort that "Snape was never yours from the moment you threatened her."

To me this is simple. The act of returning to the fold in the first place is the redemptive act according to the canon of these books, in my opinion. When Snape realizes his love for Lily is stronger than his loyalty to Voldemort, that seems to be enough. Yes, Dumbledore gave him something to do with his life, and demanded an exchange of information, but the fact that Snape said he would do "Anything" shows that he was not going right back to his old ways, and he never does.

In the books, we see that same turning of the leaf in Narcissa, who no longer cared if Voldemort won because she loved Draco, so she did the right thing in the end. When Draco no longer wants to help to identify Harry and Hermione, he shows his own humanity and ability to change from a selfish spoiled brat, and I personally think that happened before then on the night Dumbledore died. When Regulus realized how Voldemort treated Kreacher, he chose to sacrifice himself for the greater good - no one forced him to do that, or watched over to be sure he wouldn't slip and give up. He had no witness except Kreacher. He was already redeemed in the act of changing, which didn't take him 20 years to prove (since he only lived a few days or hours anyway). Like Snape, they acted on their impulses to change, but that had to come from within them, and the amount of time spent proving their salvation is not really an issue in these books, imo.

To me it is not the outward acts that completely define redemption, but the internal decision to change. Yes, both are needed for proof to Harry and some readers, but I love it that Dumbledore assumes that people want to change and tries to accept them from the beginning. Almost anyone else would write these people off as hopeless cases.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; February 1st, 2010 at 5:02 pm.
  #78  
Old February 1st, 2010, 6:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

[quote=silver ink pot;5490987]Yes, I notice the Prodigal Son didn't need 20 years of proving himself before he was seen as changed. He was accepted because he got back on the path by himself. If someone has to drag you back to the right path then that change doesn't come from within. But Snape made his own choice. That fits with Harry's statement to Voldemort that "Snape was never yours from the moment you threatened her."

To me this is simple. The act of returning to the fold in the first place is the redemptive act according to the canon of these books, in my opinion. When Snape realizes his love for Lily is stronger than his loyalty to Voldemort, that seems to be enough. Yes, Dumbledore gave him something to do with his life, and demanded an exchange of information, but the fact that Snape said he would do "Anything" shows that he was not going right back to his old ways, and he never does. QUOTE]

Well Christian belief does say that forgiveness is there for the asking, all you have to do is ask.
I like the story of The Prod cal Son a lot. The father takes his son back with true joy in his heart. He does not change his will though. The Prodigal received his share of his father's estate and wasted it. The son who stayed and worked would on his father's death get the rest, all of it. Anything the Prodigal got after his father's death would be up to the largess of his brother and I think he would have to work for it. But all fairness to him, I think he would work for it and I think his brother would give it.


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Old February 1st, 2010, 6:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Now as to Snape's assumption that the Marauder's were working as a group in an attempt to murder him. These are schoolchildren, not Murder Inc.
I think it also needs to be remembered that from Sev's viewpoint, none of these guys have ever attacked him alone. He yells that at Harry in the Flight of the Prince.

So, why would he suddenly believe Sirius was acting alone? Because not just their prior history suggests to Snape that they were in it together. As pointed out above, just the fact that Sirius actually KNEW how to get into the tunnel suggests Remus' help. And if Remus was involved then surely James would be (after all - Remus didn't ALWAYS join in). Understand that I am speaking of what SEV would believe, whether it is actually what happened or not.

And I do think Sev was correct about James only saving him to save his friends. I rather hope the whole plot wasn't done for the sole purpose of James getting to appear heroic to Lily (the absolute WORST spin I think one can put on this, short of attempted murder) - however, I do believe that when Harry tells Remus and Sirius that he thinks his father wouldn't want them to become murderers, that JKR is giving us that scene as a parallel to what actually happened with the Werewolf Incident.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #80  
Old February 1st, 2010, 8:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
I think it also needs to be remembered that from Sev's viewpoint, none of these guys have ever attacked him alone. He yells that at Harry in the Flight of the Prince.

So, why would he suddenly believe Sirius was acting alone? Because not just their prior history suggests to Snape that they were in it together. As pointed out above, just the fact that Sirius actually KNEW how to get into the tunnel suggests Remus' help. And if Remus was involved then surely James would be (after all - Remus didn't ALWAYS join in). Understand that I am speaking of what SEV would believe, whether it is actually what happened or not.

And I do think Sev was correct about James only saving him to save his friends. I rather hope the whole plot wasn't done for the sole purpose of James getting to appear heroic to Lily (the absolute WORST spin I think one can put on this, short of attempted murder) - however, I do believe that when Harry tells Remus and Sirius that he thinks his father wouldn't want them to become murderers, that JKR is giving us that scene as a parallel to what actually happened with the Werewolf Incident.
Why would you even consider that the Marauders would concoct a such labyrinthine scheme to make James look good. IMO that is ludicrous.
As we only see one occasion when Snape is attacked by 2 Marauders I don't think his claim about 4 on 1 is quite accurate. I wonder if he counted all the times he attacked James in 7th year in that.
I suppose Sirius and James could have easily discovered how to open the tunnel by following Poppy and Remus under the Invisibility Cloak. In fact I think that a much more likely explanation, to tell the truth. I also think he really should have used a little bit of common sense before going into the tunnel. I suppose he was blinded by the hope that he was at last going to get the proof that Remus was a werewolf and that would get him expelled. It was unfortunate from that point of view that James did save him. Why James went to get doesn't change the fact that he was got, and he wasn't grateful at all. Do you think that the young Sev would have been happier dead and his point proven, than alive and having to be grateful to James for saving his life? And then having to face Dumbledore and admit why he went into the tunnel in the first place.


 
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