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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13



View Poll Results: Snape's treatment of Neville...
was justified and reflects positively upon him. 3 1.96%
was justified but reflects negatively upon him. 5 3.27%
sits uncomfortably with me. 19 12.42%
was completely unjustifiable and should have been stopped. 49 32.03%
was completely unjustifiable but horrible teachers are part of life. 19 12.42%
cannot be judged objectively because we only get Harry's perspective. 36 23.53%
put Snape's worst instincts on display. 16 10.46%
does not justify a pony option! 6 3.92%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1441  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 1:12 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think that's the case - we've seen a lot of Hogwarts teachers assign essays. I would consider it extremely creepy and obsessive if I thought that was Snape's motivation in assigning essays. Even if he did steal the letter signed with love - that was actually from Lily.
Yea...that would border Edward Cullen obsessive really.

Taking Lily's letter on the other hand I don't think is anything out of the ordinary. The place was supposedly abandoned after all.


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  #1442  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 1:38 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Snape did save people's lives while still thoroughly disliking them (i.e. Lupin). I don't think saving Neville was any indication that he disliked him any less. While I don't think he would have traded another life for Lily's, I do think that he would have looked at Neville and seen a reminder of the past, as he did when he saw Harry. Yes, he moved on so completely from the Death Eater who carried the prophecy to Voldemort not caring who died. However, both boys would have surely been a constant reminder of that mistake. And while I don't think he would have wished Neville dead, I also do think he would have on some level, thought "Better the Longbottoms than Lily".
See my previous explanation of this. I was referring to any possible resentment against Neville for being alive. Disliking the boy and wishing he were dead are two different things. And I doubt that by the time of DH, Snape was thinking "Better ____ than ____" (You could fill in any name in those blanks). The point being that by the time of DH, thinking of trading one life for another is just no longer part of his makeup. That's Death Eater thinking. And the Death Eater has been purged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think that's the case - we've seen a lot of Hogwarts teachers assign essays. I would consider it extremely creepy and obsessive if I thought that was Snape's motivation in assigning essays. Even if he did steal the letter signed with love - that was actually from Lily.
I think it was a bit of a joke.


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  #1443  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 3:51 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
But Oh! Wait a minute, this brings a thought to mind. Remember when Harry found letter and obsessed over all the little ways that her handwriting was like his??? Perhaps Snape had an alterior motive in demanding so many hand written assignments from The Boy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I think it was a bit of a joke.
I don't believe it was a joke.
I think it's an interesting and new idea (and considering how many versions we are into the Snape thread, that's just plain amazing), but I'm inclined to believe it was just standard teaching practice for him, possibly with the additional intention of kicking James' son down a few perceived notches. We do know from the Quirrell memory in TPT that he saw very little of Lily in Harry during at least the first year and possibly a few of the subsequent ones. So, IMO, it's a bit of a stretch to imagine he would actively look for any sign of Lily on such a frequent basis-- especially since it's likely to cause him intense emotional pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
Yea...that would border Edward Cullen obsessive really.
Indeed. And Snape could kick Edward's sparkly behind any day.

Now, if you'll excuse me...*pulls a cord and an alarm sounds* Twilight reference! Everybody evacuate!


(Fun fact: Most of the time I took on this post was finding cute emoticons. I have great priorities!)


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Last edited by ignisia; January 22nd, 2010 at 3:55 am.
  #1444  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 5:22 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia

Indeed. And Snape could kick Edward's sparkly behind any day.

Now, if you'll excuse me...*pulls a cord and an alarm sounds* Twilight reference! Everybody evacuate!


(Fun fact: Most of the time I took on this post was finding cute emoticons. I have great priorities!)


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Last edited by silver ink pot; January 22nd, 2010 at 6:43 pm.
  #1445  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 5:30 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Indeed. And Snape could kick Edward's sparkly behind any day.

Now, if you'll excuse me...*pulls a cord and an alarm sounds* Twilight reference! Everybody evacuate!


"Cullen! You'll write an essay about Four Ways to Poison a Vampire! Eight rolls of parchement!"

Yes, I definitely can see Snape as a particularly hard-working teacher. Grading essays every evening or night... *shudder* I would be all the time in a very nasty mood if I were him.


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  #1446  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 7:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

I do find it interesting that Snape might see the similarities in their handwriting. I had never considered that before. It's an extension of the thought that it might cause conflicting emotions in him, which is how I think he feels about Harry in general. I don't know if he would actually assign extra essays to see the writing, though. I think on some level it would be unsettling for him.


  #1447  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 8:31 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by boushh View Post
I do find it interesting that Snape might see the similarities in their handwriting. I had never considered that before. It's an extension of the thought that it might cause conflicting emotions in him, which is how I think he feels about Harry in general. I don't know if he would actually assign extra essays to see the writing, though. I think on some level it would be unsettling for him.
Yes, I agree that it would be an usettling experience for him. He also seems to be unsettled during the Occlumency lessons when he sees the memory of Harry seeing his parents in the Mirror of Erised.

OotP, Occlumency
...his father and mother were waving at him out of an enchanted mirror... Cedric Diggory was lying on the ground with blank eyes.starring at him....
NOOOOOOOOO!
'Get up!' said Snape sharply. 'Get up! You are not trying, you are making no effort. You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!'
Harry stood up again, his heart thumping wildly as though he had really just seen Cedric dead in the graveyard. Snape looked paler than usual, and angrier, though not nearly as angry as Harry was.



Another time Severus is described as being "paler than usual" is in GoF.



GoF, The Parting of the Ways
'Severus,' said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, 'you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready...if you are prepared...'
'I am,' said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, an his cold black eyes glittered strangely.


  #1448  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 9:36 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
OotP, Occlumency

... Snape looked paler than usual, and angrier, though not nearly as angry as Harry was.[/i]
Oh, that bit always struck me.

Re: the Occlumency stuff, I'd not connected Snape's white face to Harry's vision of his parents in the mirror (although obviously that memory would have been very disturbing for Severus to see ) -- I had previously taken his reaction as shock to Harry calling up such a traumatic memory as seeing Cedric murdered.

It's probably one of the nearest clues that we have -- since Snape gives so much and so little away at the same time! -- that despite his professed dislike of Harry, he was capable of feeling empathy for the boy and his suffering.

At least, that was (and is) the way I choose to interpret it.


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  #1449  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 9:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Oh, that bit always struck me.

Re: the Occlumency stuff, I'd not connected Snape's white face to Harry's vision of his parents in the mirror (although obviously that memory would have been very disturbing for Severus to see ) -- I had previously taken his reaction as shock to Harry calling up such a traumatic memory as seeing Cedric murdered.

It's probably one of the nearest clues that we have -- since Snape gives so much and so little away at the same time! -- that despite his professed dislike of Harry, he was capable of feeling empathy for the boy and his suffering.

At least, that was (and is) the way I choose to interpret it.
And then, of course he gets mad at himself for feeling empathy and berates the boy!


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  #1450  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 9:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

I think both the memory of Lily and that of Cedric are likely to get a reaction from Snape. He probably took a lot of points from Cedric while the boy was in school, but seeing the dead body of a kid you've taught for 7 years is not a pleasant sight, nor is the idea that another student actually saw that.


Looking back at that quote, I think that Cedric might have been there to partially hide the Snape/Lily hint.

Quote:
Harry stood up again, his heart thumping wildly as though he had really just seen Cedric dead in the graveyard. Snape looked paler than usual, and angrier, though not nearly as angry as Harry was.
Harry recalls Cedric's face in the sentence right before he notices Snape's expression...linking them together just in case any of us thought that maybe the other memory may have affected him too.


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  #1451  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Looking back at that quote, I think that Cedric might have been there to partially hide the Snape/Lily hint.

Harry recalls Cedric's face in the sentence right before he notices Snape's expression...linking them together just in case any of us thought that maybe the other memory may have affected him too.
That is the way I see it. I am sure seeing Cedric's dead body was unpleasant for Severus, but it wasn't the first time he saw it so it wasn't a complete shock. However, I think seeing Lily in the mirror would have been quite a shock as it would have been completly unexpected. As far as Severus was concerned Harry wouldn't have any memories of his mother, being as she died when Harry was so young.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; January 22nd, 2010 at 10:41 pm.
  #1452  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:41 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
That is the way I see it. I am sure seeing Cedric's dead body was unpleasant for Severus, but it wasn't the first time he saw it so it wasn't a complete shock.
Actually, it is the first time he has seen Cedric's body in the graveyard. If I'm not mistaken, Harry's memory takes him back to the moment right after Cedric's death - when Harry notices his blank eyes gazing up.

Severus saw the body when it came back to Hogwarts with the portkey. But he hasn't seen the body in the graveyard immediately after the moment of death. Harry is the only person at Hogwarts who has ever seen that before.


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  #1453  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Actually, it is the first time he has seen Cedric's body in the graveyard. If I'm not mistaken, Harry's memory takes him back to the moment right after Cedric's death - when Harry notices his blank eyes gazing up.

Severus saw the body when it came back to Hogwarts with the portkey. But he hasn't seen the body in the graveyard immediately after the moment of death. Harry is the only person at Hogwarts who has ever seen that before.
Yes this is true, Severus didn't see Cedric's body in the graveyard. However, I still think that the greater shock in those memories for Severus, was probably that of seeing Lily looking out of a mirror.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; January 22nd, 2010 at 10:53 pm.
  #1454  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 11:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Yes this is true, Severus didn't see Cedric's body in the graveyard. However, I still think that the greater shock in those memories for Severus, was probably that of seeing Lily looking out of a mirror.
Well, I'm sure that seeing Lily looking out of the mirror would be pretty shocking to him.

But let's go back to that image in the graveyard for a moment. As I believe you noted upthread, the other time we saw Severus blanch was at the end of GoF. Now this is actually very interesting (imo) because at the end of GoF, he blanched right before heading to that very same graveyard a couple of hours after Cedric died to meet up with Voldemort with the first time in about 15 years, not knowing whether he would be killed or spared.

I can imagine him blanching at the memory of that night - perhaps even more so than blanching at the sight of Lily in the mirror. And it's connected via the same imagery.

Anyway, I find it likely that both images - Lily in the mirror and that graveyard (with or without Cedric) - carry a lot of emotional weight for Severus. I would suggest that perhaps he's experiencing a double shock from the images he finds in Harry's memories - one shock on top of another, if you will.

What do you think?


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  #1455  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 12:21 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post

Anyway, I find it likely that both images - Lily in the mirror and that graveyard (with or without Cedric) - carry a lot of emotional weight for Severus. I would suggest that perhaps he's experiencing a double shock from the images he finds in Harry's memories - one shock on top of another, if you will.

What do you think?
I agree with you that both images are likely to illict strong emotions from Severus. I also agree with Iggy, that it was probably not by chance that these two memories are together. I think the placing of these memories together was probably done deliberately, so we the readers would assume that it was seeing Cedric dead, that caused Snape to become pale. And, so cleverly disguising the fact that seeing Lily had indeed shaken Severus. Yet, another clue hidden by JKR's clever writing.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; January 23rd, 2010 at 12:33 am.
  #1456  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 1:32 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I agree with you that both images are likely to illict strong emotions from Severus. I also agree with Iggy, that it was probably not by chance that these two memories are together. I think the placing of these memories together was probably done deliberately, so we the readers would assume that it was seeing Cedric dead, that caused Snape to become pale. And, so cleverly disguising the fact that seeing Lily had indeed shaken Severus. Yet, another clue hidden by JKR's clever writing.
What's wild, though, is that until you mentioned the connection with the other pale look, I had latched on to the image of Lily in the mirror as being the source of his turning pale - either that or his anger.

So it was actually the image of Cedric and the graveyard that were hidden in my personal experience of the passage... until I started analyzing. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, of course - just noting that different readers will have different experiences of it.


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  #1457  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 2:53 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
What's wild, though, is that until you mentioned the connection with the other pale look, I had latched on to the image of Lily in the mirror as being the source of his turning pale - either that or his anger.

So it was actually the image of Cedric and the graveyard that were hidden in my personal experience of the passage... until I started analyzing. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, of course - just noting that different readers will have different experiences of it.
Maybe the vision of Cedric affected Snape because that could easily have his own fate that night as soon as he returned to the graveyard.

Or maybe it's foreshadowing for Snape's death by Voldemort in DH?


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  #1458  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 6:58 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Or maybe it's foreshadowing for Snape's death by Voldemort in DH?
Hmm...I can't see the connection here. Can you elaborate?

By the way, here's a link to "The Field Guide to Severus Snape," which suggests translations for a lot of things, including the pale face.

Re: the memory of Lily and James in the mirror, I wonder how much Severus knew about that memory. Did he figure that it was the Mirror of Erised showing Harry his deepest desire or did he come up with another explanation? We know he worked together with Dumbledore and the other teachers to protect the Stone, but did Severus know about the mirror's presence in the castle and what it did?


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  #1459  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 8:16 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

I think Snape's pale face was more to do with his guilt, because he saw what Harry's deepest desire was in the Mirror. I think it would bring home the point his own role in the Potters deaths. I am not sure that Cedric's death would have equal horror for him.

I think he would have felt bad that Cedric had to die; that another life was lost because of Voldemort and one he knew, taught and saw everyday; but I think he was pale more because Harry's deepest desire would have disturbed him very deeply and brought his guilt to the surface. He was sharper after that and I think that's his way of dealing with what he'd seen.

Harry was livid that Snape had seen his deepest desire; it made him look weak in front of Snape, while Snape was disturbed because he had seen Harry's deepest desire; something that brought forth his own weakness IMO. (his guilt born out of his wrong actions).


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  #1460  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 8:59 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Hmm...I can't see the connection here. Can you elaborate?

By the way, here's a link to "The Field Guide to Severus Snape," which suggests translations for a lot of things, including the pale face.

Re: the memory of Lily and James in the mirror, I wonder how much Severus knew about that memory. Did he figure that it was the Mirror of Erised showing Harry his deepest desire or did he come up with another explanation? We know he worked together with Dumbledore and the other teachers to protect the Stone, but did Severus know about the mirror's presence in the castle and what it did?
I'm sure Severus must have known about the mirror and what it did, given that it's part of the protection for the Philosopher's Stone - and he was definitely one of the Professors helping provide the protection for the Philosopher's Stone.


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