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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12



View Poll Results: What is Snape's greatest weakness?
his vindictiveness 73 36.14%
his inability to move on 97 48.02%
his unsocial behaviour 40 19.80%
his vanity in regard to his intellect 14 6.93%
his inability to take responsibility for his own actions 29 14.36%
his love for Lily 41 20.30%
I don't see Snape having any particular weaknesses. 9 4.46%
I bet Moriath liked this poll better than the last. 28 13.86%
Where is my favourite option? 18 8.91%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1421  
Old September 18th, 2009, 3:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Excellent posted meesha1971! You perfectly summed up everything I wanted to say! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts, thanks for posting!


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  #1422  
Old September 18th, 2009, 4:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
When I first read PoA, my interpretation was that Snape did want revenge on Remus and Sirius for their old schoolboy feud. At the same time, this seemed so incredibly over the top to me that I thought there had to be something more to it than that!
The 'over the top' bit is exactly why I believed it was about the Potters' death - at least as soon as Snape spit out his bit to Harry about how he would have died for trusting Sirius. We had never seen Snape as out of control as he was in this incident. Not even when a firework was thrown into a potion (a possibly truly dangerous action that luckly turned out to not be). He's practically spitting nails. I was truly waiting for a spectacular 'hissy fit' from Rickman that never happened in the movie.

And he's still so angry afterwards, that Fudge thinks he might be a bit 'unhinged'. But he does an abrupt about face and shuts up as soon as Albus hints that he might have had something to do with Sirius' escape. IF he's all that livid over the 'grudge' then he would still be shouting. In MY opinion, he stops because he's gotten the hint that there really is MORE to the situation than he knows.

I also compare it to the night Sirius first got into the castle. Snape reminds Albus that Sirius (in Snape's eyes) was capable of murder at 16 and Albus brushes him off a bit - but there isn't any kind of 'fit' over the 'prank' It doesn't anger him SO much that he's making a fool of himself.

And remember this is SNAPE. The man cannot stand to let his emotions show. To have such an enormous hissy-fit over something like getting even for pranks would be supremely unlikely for him. And IF he is - then why hasn't he been doing so all year with Remus?

I think most people just don't understand Snape's point-of-view here. He's been watching Remus all year. At least, since that first Hogsmeade visit when he finds Remus 'chumming' up to Harry over tea. On that very same night Sirius breaks in and slashes the Gryffindor Lady. Snape sees this as connected (we however know it was not). He even mentions just that on that same night. He believed Remus let Sirius in. And earlier that day he saw Remus becoming 'friendly' with Harry at a time when there were very few possible witnesses around. And at a time when Harry was feeling down and lonely for not being allowed to go to Hogsmeade.

On the NEXT Hogsmeade visit, Snape catches Harry acting suspiciously at the entrance to a tunnel to Hogsmeade. We cannot know whether Snape KNEW that was an entrance or if he just suspected it was or if the way Harry was acting just made him wonder. But especially in hindsight, when Harry WAS discovered to be in Hogsmeade on the NEXT Hogsmeade visit, Snape would begin to wonder just WHO told Harry HOW to sneak out.

And Snape is quite angry over Harry's having gone to Hogsmeade. He sounds the most like a parent scolding their child in this one instance than any other. About how the whole of Hogwarts is trying to protect Harry and he puts himself in danger anyways. IF I recall correctly, I think this is even the first time he compares Harry to James (at least to verbally to Harry)

In retrospect, we now know Snape had made it his top priority to protect Harry. And Sirius Black, (who everyone believes betrayed the Potters and then killed 13 people) has escaped Azkaban with the expressed mumblings that 'he's at Hogswart'. Snape is not the only one to assume Black wants to kill Harry. He's on high alert.

Hogsmeade Visit #1 - he found Remus making friends with Harry and then believed Remus also let Sirius into the castle that very same night

Hogsmeade Visit #2 - he's suspicious about Harry lurking around acting suspiciously himself. In retrospect, if not at the time, he probably realizes Harry is trying to sneak out. IF so, then he would suspect Remus as the one to tell Harry how to get out. Doesn't matter that Remus did not. It is what Snape suspects.

Hogsmeade Visit #3 - Harry has been seen in Hogsmeade. Since it's just his 'head' that is seen, this is also the first time Snape might now KNOW Harry has an Invisibility Cloak. What Harry also has is some kind of Paper that is from the Marauders. He outright accuses Remus of giving it to Harry in order to lure him outside. Remus attempts to 'joke' it off by saying it came from Zonko's. Snape is well aware it is a lie since he has read the nicknames. Names that we learn in bk5 that the Marauders used even in Public.

And we also have Christmas with a broom from an unknown source. How would anyone outside of Hogwarts KNOW Harry needed a new broom? Snape suspects Remus of supplying the info to Sirius. He has no way of knowing that Sirius had been at the game himself and so knew a broom would be 'handy'. And it isn't as if a jinxed broom hadn't already been tried as a way of killing Harry - and if Snape hadn't been there, it would have worked. So, Snape sees this again as Remus helping Sirius to get to Harry.

Then there's one more attempt on Harry (from Snape's viewpoint) and Sirius actually made it into the boy's dorm room, he was just at the wrong bed (Snape's view). Somehow (actually Crookshanks) Sirius got ahold of a list of passwords in Neville's writing. Note that Remus was also very 'kind' to Neville - at least in Snape's eyes (Boggart class). Snape would see that as opportunity for Remus to get his hands on that list.

Then there's a long break without incident. Until the week of exams, the last full moon and the last Hogsmeade Visit all in one week. And what happens? Remus does not come to get his potion. Snape waits for him to do so. From earlier in the book we know the taking of the potion is either a daily thing that begins several days before the Full Moon (in which case neglecting just one dose ruins the effectiveness) OR one dose taken even 5 days ahead is enough to take. We don't know which.

So, either Remus DID take his daily doses everyday that week, despite giving 2 exams each day and just didn't come take the LAST one, even though the day was the same as the others (a morning and an afternoon exam to give) or Snape has been waiting for Remus to come get his dose for several days. We just don't know which.

Either way, Remus had several hours to go get his potion between the end of afternoon exams and sundown (approx 9:00 pm that far north in June). He probably even went to dinner in the Great Hall during that time. Which would seem the most likely time to go down to the dungeon and get his potion (he's already downstairs). But he doesn't.

So - the 'evidence' (as far as Snape sees it) all points to Remus having worked with Sirius all year to both 'gain Harry's trust', give Sirius inside information, tell Harry info just how to get out of the castle and actually let Sirius IN twice. Then he sees Remus on the Map, running off towards Hogsmeade on the night before the LAST Hogsmeade Visit. There's still time for a little 'planning session' between Sirius and Remus. Snape decides to go follow.

Horrors! He finds the Cloak. This indicates that not only is Harry down there, but that Harry entered on his own (Snape knows nothing about the actual way it happened) implying that Remus pre-arranged a meeting with Harry in the Shack on the Full Moon, without having taken his potion.

I just cannot see WHY, with all that Snape believed had happened that year implicating Remus, he would ever listen to him that night in the Shack, when Snape believes he has now just caught him red-handed! And Remus (not knowing Snape's belief that Remus was abetting an escaped mass murderer) is talking about old history.

WHEN Remus gets to the point where he says that Snape believed Remus was 'in on' the Werewolf Incident AND Snape sees what is happening as a REPEAT of said incident (with Harry as young Snape). THAT's when Snape announces himself. Because he sees Remus as 'in on it' again!


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; September 18th, 2009 at 5:50 pm.
  #1423  
Old September 18th, 2009, 5:14 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp
She wanted the readers to identify with Harry and identify with his wrong assumptions. His bias, his prejudices. The way he "sees" things is not always correct. It's not until Harry is adult that he begins to see the whole 360 view of many people in his life.

In the end, one could also argue, that JKR didn't make clear enough - or didn't want to make clear- to many readers how and why Snape would come to be idolized by Harry so many years later. This provides controversy. Rowling's purpose was not to dictate how the readers should feel about a character- but to present a story and let them feel how they want.
I think that's why she warned readers before DH came out that not everyone would like the ending, but she was going to leave it the way she had written it years before. I feel that Albus Severus was always planned to be there, and I believe the "bravest man" quote was always going to be there, too. So it couldn't have come out of nowhere if she had that chapter in a vault for ten years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arithmancer
The memories of "The Prince's Tale" are not there to explain and/or excuse every thing in the world Harry or the reader may disapprove of regarding Snape, staring with his personal hygiene and ending with his murder of Dumbledore. They focus on the big picture, the ways in which Snape's actions had a huge impact on Harry's life. So they look at actions that rise to the level of criminality/evil, and convey either the story of Snape's true and lasting remorse for them, or (in the case of his actions in the second war) explain the necessity of those actions in the struggle against Voldemort or protection of Harry.
Yes, I think showing "necessity" is a good way of putting it.


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  #1424  
Old September 18th, 2009, 9:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Snape loses it in the Shrieking Shack, and yet it is the only time we see Snape behave that in that over the top way with Sirius. If his behaviour in the Shack was all about the schoolboy grudge, then why did he not continue to behave in that way around Sirius when they were both working for the Order. Yes, Snape was snarky towards Sirius, but never again do we see him behave in a similar way as he did in the Shack. I just think that the evidence points to there being something more to Snape's behaviour in the Shack, and I think that something is Lily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
He is the classic literary model of a scapegoat. She wrote him and all the events around him in such a way to leave the worse possible impression- yet left enough things open-ended and vague and non-exact for the direct purpose of allowing those events to be re-read and re-interpreted after all the facts about Snape's motives are known post -DH. It's a pretty typical writing strategy when it comes to mysteries and dramas that rely on narrative misdirection. Obviously if she had laid everything out there- there would be no mystery or mis-reading of Snape that Harry could reflect back upon.
Exactly, the clues are there, but we are deliberately misdirected as to Snape's real motivations.


  #1425  
Old September 18th, 2009, 10:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

I think the Snape character was so much like the average person at first. He was unsure of himself, and used his prejudices to make himeslf feel better. That is a natural tactic of children. Then, that vulnerablity was used by Voldemort to lure him in. Look around at the gangs that draw kids in because it makes them feel that they belong, and, through that, makes them feel stronger. The more he was picked on and criticized as a youngster, the more attractive Voldemort's group became. When Snape and Lily had their blow up, I think that sealed it until she was killed. Then, realizing he had helped bring about her death, in remorse, he turned to Dumbledore, who was the only one who could offer him a chance at redemption. I feel it was his guilt about Lily's death that caused such a reaction to Sirius in the Shaking Shack. I think, in truth, he was striking out at himself as well as Sirius, who he thought helped bring about Lily's death.

The way JKR wrote this and the way she intertwined the characters and developed Snape throughout the series was masterful. IMO


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Last edited by MinervasCat; September 18th, 2009 at 10:39 pm.
  #1426  
Old September 18th, 2009, 10:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
He is the classic literary model of a scapegoat. She wrote him and all the events around him in such a way to leave the worse possible impression- yet left enough things open-ended and vague and non-exact for the direct purpose of allowing those events to be re-read and re-interpreted after all the facts about Snape's motives are known post -DH. It's a pretty typical writing strategy when it comes to mysteries and dramas that rely on narrative misdirection. Obviously if she had laid everything out there- there would be no mystery or mis-reading of Snape that Harry could reflect back upon.
I completely agree with this. But, in my honest opinion, even though Snape was the misunderstood scapegoat, that doesn't mean all of his faults and mistakes were erased the moment he renounced Lord Voldemort and turned to the good side. (Just his most important faults and mistakes ) I still think that Snape had moments when he was inexcusably nasty. IMO, JK wouldn't deal in absolutes like that (in a character like Snape, at least.) She needed to make him seem like the all-around bad guy before the 7th book, but that doesn't mean that after we found out about Snape's great goodness, that he actually was never mean to anyone (after he turned to the light, I mean.) IMO, Snape is the greatest human of the entire series, not just in his one big change from being a DE, but also afterward in what I think was still sometimes a great struggle for him to do good (and I think he slipped up sometimes in this struggle, too.)


  #1427  
Old September 18th, 2009, 11:41 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_WandStick View Post
I completely agree with this. But, in my honest opinion, even though Snape was the misunderstood scapegoat, that doesn't mean all of his faults and mistakes were erased the moment he renounced Lord Voldemort and turned to the good side. (Just his most important faults and mistakes ) I still think that Snape had moments when he was inexcusably nasty. IMO, JK wouldn't deal in absolutes like that (in a character like Snape, at least.) She needed to make him seem like the all-around bad guy before the 7th book, but that doesn't mean that after we found out about Snape's great goodness, that he actually was never mean to anyone (after he turned to the light, I mean.) IMO, Snape is the greatest human of the entire series, not just in his one big change from being a DE, but also afterward in what I think was still sometimes a great struggle for him to do good (and I think he slipped up sometimes in this struggle, too.)
No he wasn't perfect in every way after he was redeemed. He had bad days and he struggled with a bad temper (that he learned from his own father and not Voldemort).

But I think in some ways JKR is telling us that some things were "erased" by turning to the good side. That fits the view of Christian redemption that I believe she was going for. Once someone shows that moment of remorse then their sins are forgiven. That happens over and over in the books, not just with Snape, but with any character you can name who turned to the good side even at the last minute like the Malfoys. Sirius is another good example who wasn't perfect and who could be unkind (to Kreacher for instance) but even the Ministry forgave him after death when they realized he didn't kill Muggles or Peter after all.

I also think it's important that Dumbledore was the first to forgive Snape, because he had been at that point himself when he was young. Because he could change, he knew Snape could change. Outward personality isn't the key to this because who would have ever thought Dumbledore had a dark past or was friends with Grindelwald, who was also Mr. Handsome Mischief-Maker and not apparently bad at all?

And there are plenty of people with pleasant personality traits in the books who are the most devious, fake, and nasty people - Umbridge, Lockhart, Fudge, etc.

In Christianity the change comes from within but is judged by good works and not suddenly being Mr. Perfect all the time. Snape is more associated with the idea of "the truth will set you free" or something instead of suddenly being holier than anyone else. Righteous, but not perfect.

Just my opinion.


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  #1428  
Old September 18th, 2009, 11:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
[A few new thoughts on this subject occurred to me today while coming back from work.

1) The Full Moon is more than ONE day long - presumably Remus would again turn into a werewolf on the very same night (and the next one after it) after the morning Snape 'outed' Remus. IF so, then Snape was not just 'outing' him to prevent him from returning as a teacher in the next year, but to ensure that all of his Slytherin charges stayed safely away from wherever they might run into Remus THAT night!
The moon is full for 1 night only, the lunar cycle moves every single day.
It was 1 week till the end of term, (I reread the chapter.) Remus knew better that Snape the consequences of being bitten. IMO he never took his condition lightly.

Quote:
2) Snape goes to the Willow solely because he saw Remus running down the tunnel. He does not KNOW whether Sirius will be at the other end or not, but he 'suspects' Remus is going to meet him. It is after all the last Full Moon of the year and the night before the very last Hogsmeade visit. And there have been 'suspicious' (to Snape) incidents happening around every Hogsmeade visit that year (and many of the Full Moons)
Snape saw the Map, he didn't look real close or he would have seen Pettigrew's name on it, but heat of the moment just like Remus that has to be forgiven. Snape knew exactly where Remus was during the other full moons. He was sleeping through his transformations.


Quote:
When Snape gets there, he discovers the Invisibility Cloak. This leads to one conclusion. Harry is down at the other end - suddenly it isn't about sneaking down the tunnel to eavesdrop on whatever plans Remus and Sirius might be making for the next day. Now it's about a rescue.
A rescuer would have got the children out first instead of indulging in a fit of temper.

Quote:
And the one thing that had never occurred to me before today? Snape has to wonder HOW Harry knew how to get past the Willow. After all, Snape did not watch (on the Map) as Sirius dragged Ron down the tunnel, nor would he know that Harry and Hermione saw how to get past the Willow by watching Sirius with Ron. As far as Snape knows, the only person who might have given Harry the info on getting past the Willow would be Remus himself.
Oh how I wish I could believe that. I thinnk the only thing on Snape's mind was Sirius. He is the one he goes after first.

Quote:
Therefore, Snape would then believe that Remus was running down that tunnel to meet HARRY as pre-arranged by Remus himself (who else would have told Harry how to get in? - remeber this is in Snape's mind). For Snape, it's like facing the Werewolf Incident all over again - only with Harry as the one being tricked into meeting a werewolf and Snape playing James the rescuer. After all, the trick 'almost' worked before, why not try it again?
If Snape had been thinking 'Danger WereWolf Danger', would he have forgotton the potion?


Quote:
3) Both Remus and Snape presumably had 2 exams to give that day. One in the morning and one in the afternoon. We know that Remus could not have seen Sirius dragging Peter (with Ron) down the tunnel until after sunset because it happened after Buckbeak was supposed to be executed. It's June in the relatively far north. That means close to 9:00 for sunset - and sometime after for Remus to actually SEE Peter's name pop up.
Actually it's closer to 11:30 at night. I just love those long summer nights, some times it doesn't get dark at all, and June is Midsummer Night time. Ron took Scabbers from Hagrids House when the Ministery Men got there, Trewlawnie's Prophecy said 'The Dark Lord's servant would rise before midnight. It had to be close to midnight when they came out of the tunnel and that would fit in with moonrise. The scene in the Shack would have taken at least 30-45 mins.

Quote:
Therefore, Remus had 'probably' at least 3 hours (depends upon how long it took him to clean up his 'obstacle' course exam IF that was the exam he held in the afternoon - we know he held that exam in the morning for Harry's class, but we do not know which year/class had his afternoon exam, so we don't know whether he had the same 'practical' exam or a written one for his 6th years even). Anyways - probably 3 hours in which to go get his potion - including 'dinner' when he could have just met up with Snape and walked down with him
That would seem correct, leaving enough time for Snape to go get the potion and take it to Remus. That seems to have been the practice between them judging on what was already in the books. But all of this to my mind is beside the point. Snape had reason to be there in the Shack, he had a lot of reasons, whether we believe they were good reasons for his actions or not, he believed they were. I just say he was out of control. My whole point throught this entire conversation is not that he didn't have his reasons for his actions, because he did. I am saying that he had no right to expose Remus the way he did. That was wrong, IMO.

I don't buy the idea that the children were in danger from Remus. There was 1 week left to the end of term and the full moon had passed. I don't think Fudge would have exposed the fact that he knew a werewolf was teaching at Hogwarts under any circumstances. Fudge was too afraid of bad opinion to expose himself like that. I think he would have covered it up in a heartbeat as long as Remus left quietly. The more quietly the better, probably.
I think Snape acted on impulse through sheer spite. I also think he regretted it later. IMO it was an act that he was ashamed of, we all do things like it so I am not casting blame. It was a 'small mean thing', unworthy of him.



Last edited by eliza101; September 18th, 2009 at 11:53 pm.
  #1429  
Old September 18th, 2009, 11:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Eliza: Lupin later (in HBP) seemed to forgive Snape and told Harry not to be prejudiced against him. Lupin also expressed gratitude that Snape made the Wolfsbane Potion for him "perfectly," so the story moved on from PoA and what happened. Lupin and Snape also worked together for the Order and seemed to get along fine, and I believe Lupin did not blame him for losing his job, but even by OotP seemed to blame Fudge and Umbridge for the fact that he was unemployed.


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  #1430  
Old September 19th, 2009, 12:05 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Righteous, but not perfect.
How you worded this just made my day. This was exactly the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to portray Snape as a lesser man than he was. I was just pointing out that he was not perfect, as you said.

I don't want to accuse anyone, but my main reason in posting that comment was that I was concerned that some people may take the other extreme, that is, be so determined that Snape not be still thought of in a negative light that they won't hear a word against him. I think that most people now have at least a little respect for Snape. We musn't be too annoyed when it seems like people are continuing to accuse him for everything, because I doubt that's the case.


  #1431  
Old September 19th, 2009, 12:50 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Eliza: Lupin later (in HBP) seemed to forgive Snape and told Harry not to be prejudiced against him. Lupin also expressed gratitude that Snape made the Wolfsbane Potion for him "perfectly," so the story moved on from PoA and what happened. Lupin and Snape also worked together for the Order and seemed to get along fine, and I believe Lupin did not blame him for losing his job, but even by OotP seemed to blame Fudge and Umbridge for the fact that he was unemployed.
Well yes, I made that point earlier. It was in the GOF, Christmas at the Burrow when Remus was speaking about Snape to Harry. I'm not saying that Snape shoukld be condemned to Outer Mongolia, I'm saying he should not have exposed Remus the way he did at the end of POA. That's my opinion, and as I keep saying, it was unworthy of Snape. He was capable of mor honourable behaviour. And still keep his snark.
I love his snark, I like he has that edge, and I don't look at him through a romantic haze. I'm not saying that about anyone in particular, but IMO there is more to his charactor development than TPT. Snape is very complicated and he has more layers than an onion. IMO more of those layers are sour than they are sweet, that and his mystery is why I like him so much.


  #1432  
Old September 19th, 2009, 3:47 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
...Snape saw the Map, he didn't look real close or he would have seen Pettigrew's name on it, but heat of the moment just like Remus that has to be forgiven. Snape knew exactly where Remus was during the other full moons. He was sleeping through his transformations.
Actually - Peter doesn't show on the Map for Snape because Peter (and Sirius) were already in the Shack - which isn't on the Map. He didn't even see the kids f- for the same reason. He sees Remus running off the edge of the page (too far along the tunnel towards the Shack to show up on the Map)


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #1433  
Old September 19th, 2009, 4:22 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Well yes, I made that point earlier. It was in the GOF, Christmas at the Burrow when Remus was speaking about Snape to Harry.
No, it's in Half-Blood Prince, "A Very Frosty Christmas." In GoF,

HBP, Chap. 16, "Very Frosty""I neither like nor dislike Severus," said Lupin. "No, Harry, I am speaking the truth," he added, as Harry pulled a skeptical expression. "We shall never be bosom friends, perhaps; after all that happened between James and Sirius and Severus, there is too much bitterness there. But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to suffer as I usually do at the full moon."

"But he 'accidentally' let it slip that you're a werewolf, so you had to leave!" said Harry angrily.

Lupin shrugged. "The news would have leaked out anyway.
We both know he wanted my job, but he could have wreaked much worse damage on me by tampering with the potion. He kept me healthy. I must be grateful."

"Maybe he didn't dare mess with the potion with Dumbledore watching him!" said Harry.

"You are determined to hate him, Harry," said Lupin with a faint smile. "And I understand; with James as your father, with Sirius as your godfather, you have inherited an old prejudice.


I'm not even sure Lupin is correct there about Snape wanting his job as DADA. Snape surely knew about the curse on DADA - Hagrid says in Book 2 that all the teachers knew. And basically, Lupin leaving the job didn't mean that Snape got the job anyway, as first Moody and then Umbridge took it. For one thing, Snape wasn't that easily replaced as Potions Master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza
I love his snark, I like he has that edge, and I don't look at him through a romantic haze. I'm not saying that about anyone in particular, but IMO there is more to his charactor development than TPT.
I think there are seven books worth of character development.

Romantic Haze? It's in the eye of the beholder. Snape is a tragic hero much like those revered by the writers of the Romantic Period in the 19th century. In that respect he is romantic, but there's also his undying love for Lily. JKR must have been a bit romantic to throw that into the mix of Snape's character development. I'm not going to argue with her about it, since I like Snape's romantic side. Just my opinion.

Snark isn't all there is to Severus, and I'm glad about that.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; September 19th, 2009 at 4:26 am.
  #1434  
Old September 19th, 2009, 4:56 am
thelovelybones  Undisclosed.gif thelovelybones is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Welcome to the thread, thelovelybones.



Not sure about that, myself. Although it's fascinating to speculate.

And I agree with you on the rest.
Thanks ^_^
And it's a possiblilty. Of course he could just dislike Harry, but he does try to save him, and Harry looks like James so there is the constant reminder there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
Actually - Peter doesn't show on the Map for Snape because Peter (and Sirius) were already in the Shack - which isn't on the Map. He didn't even see the kids f- for the same reason. He sees Remus running off the edge of the page (too far along the tunnel towards the Shack to show up on the Map)
Are you sure about that? Since James, Remus, Sirius and Wormy made the map, i thought they'd have the Shack listed since it was made for them while they were in school, and they put all passageways they knew about on the map.


I think some people are wanting to believe Severus was always good, and had Harry and the rest of the students in Hogwarts', best intentions all of the time. This isn't the case. We know he hated James and that his aim in protecting Harry was because he felt as though it would mean he had repaid Lily.

If he really was the 'nice guy' he wouldn't be giving everyone, not from Slytherin, detention and taking points off them. You've got to keep this in mind.


  #1435  
Old September 19th, 2009, 5:37 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

I think JKR intentionally wrote Snape as a flawed individual with the same shortcomings and weaknesses that others have, which made him more real. Even when he turned against Voldemort and became Dumbledore's spy, he was still Severus Snape, and was carrying all of the same baggage he had been for his whole life.

He wasn't raised to be a kind, caring, warm, fuzzy person. I think that's why his love for Lily was so deep and her death affected him the way it did, because it went against the feelings he'd usually experienced. Just my thoughts.


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  #1436  
Old September 19th, 2009, 7:42 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelovelybones
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
Actually - Peter doesn't show on the Map for Snape because Peter (and Sirius) were already in the Shack - which isn't on the Map. He didn't even see the kids for the same reason. He sees Remus running off the edge of the page (too far along the tunnel towards the Shack to show up on the Map)
Are you sure about that? Since James, Remus, Sirius and Wormy made the map, i thought they'd have the Shack listed since it was made for them while they were in school, and they put all passageways they knew about on the map.
It's explained in PoA: The passageway under the Willow was marked by the Marauders, but until the night of the full moon Harry had no idea that it would lead to the Shack. The Willow is on there, but not the Shack.

From Chapter 10 "The Marauder's Map"

This map showed a set of passages he had never entered. And many of them seemed to lead -

"Right into Hogsmeade," said Fred, tracing one of them with his finger. "There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four" -- he pointed them out -- "but we're sure we're the only ones who know about these. Don't bother with the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked. And we don't reckon anyone's ever used this one, because the Whomping Willow's planted right over the entrance.


*snip*

From Chapter 17 "Cat Rat Dog."

"This way," said Harry, setting off, bent-backed, after Crookshanks.

"Where does this tunnel come out?" Hermione asked breathlessly from behind him.

"I don't know... It's marked on the Marauder's Map but Fred and George said no one's ever gotten into it.... It goes off the edge of the map, but it looked like it was heading for Hogsmeade..."


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Last edited by silver ink pot; September 19th, 2009 at 9:45 am.
  #1437  
Old September 19th, 2009, 9:04 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

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Originally Posted by TM_WandStick View Post
How you worded this just made my day. This was exactly the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to portray Snape as a lesser man than he was. I was just pointing out that he was not perfect, as you said.
Indeed Snape is nasty, vindictive and bitter and I have mentioned before that I completly see all these aspects of his character. However, I think JKR wrote some scenes in which she used these parts of his character to misdirect the reader so we wouldn't be alerted to his true loyalties and motivations too early in the story. I think we are supposed to look back at these particular scenes differently after TPT and say "Ah, so that's what was really going on." JKR was really very clever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Romantic Haze? It's in the eye of the beholder. Snape is a tragic hero much like those revered by the writers of the Romantic Period in the 19th century. In that respect he is romantic, but there's also his undying love for Lily. JKR must have been a bit romantic to throw that into the mix of Snape's character development. I'm not going to argue with her about it, since I like Snape's romantic side. Just my opinion.

Snark isn't all there is to Severus, and I'm glad about that.
I happen to think one of the reasons Snape is such a popular character is that JKR wrote him to be a flawed human and believable.
Like all humans he has many facets to his character, not just the mean snarky teacher.


  #1438  
Old September 19th, 2009, 9:22 am
thelovelybones  Undisclosed.gif thelovelybones is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
The shrieking shack is in Hogsmeade and the map only covers Hogwarts and the immediate territory; not even Hagrid's cottage IIRC.

eta: The primary purpose of the Marauders' Map was to spy on people. Since no one else knew about the Whomping Willow entrance to the Shack (other than Dumbledore and Pomfrey, of course) there was no need to put it on the map.



Has anyone here ever said everything Severus Snape does is good? Seems to me it's more like 'not everything he does is bad.'
Ah, but the actual shack is still connected to the school, so it would be logical if they had it on the map.

Okay that makes sense. lol.

And yeah actually a few, but i was reading the entire thread and forgot to quote them, my bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
It's explained in PoA: The passageway under the Willow was marked by the Marauders, but until the night of the full moon Harry had no idea that it would lead to the Shack. The Willow is on there, but not the Shack.

This map showed a set of passages he had never entered. And many of them seemed to lead -

"Right into Hogsmeade," said Fred, tracing one of them with his finger. "There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four" -- he pointed them out -- "but we're sure we're the only ones who know about these. Don't bother with the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked. And we don't reckon anyone's ever used this one, because the Whomping Willow's planted right over the entrance.

*snip*

"This way," said Harry, setting off, bent-backed, after Crookshanks.

"Where does this tunnel come out?" Hermione asked breathlessly from behind him.

"I don't know... It's marked on the Marauder's Map but Fred and George said no one's ever gotten into it.... It goes off the edge of the map, but it looked like it was heading for Hogsmeade..."
Oh okay. But if it says the Willow is planted on top of the passageway then that's it?

The second bit's from when?

And the Shack isn't listed but they've for the passageways, wouldn't they have also led into the Shack?

lol, sorry if this has been covered before, i'm re-reading the series at the moment and it's got me thinking heaps


  #1439  
Old September 19th, 2009, 9:43 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelovelybones View Post
Ah, but the actual shack is still connected to the school, so it would be logical if they had it on the map.

Okay that makes sense. lol.
Here's the way it is: the Willow is on the School Grounds, but the Shack is in Hogsmeade. The village is not anywhere on the map. The tunnels lead to the edge of the map and that's all.

The Shack is connected to the tree on the grounds, but not to the school itself.

So the book says the Shack is not on the map or Harry would know where the tunnel was going, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelovelybones
Oh okay. But if it says the Willow is planted on top of the passageway then that's it?

The second bit's from when?

And the Shack isn't listed but they've for the passageways, wouldn't they have also led into the Shack?

lol, sorry if this has been covered before, i'm re-reading the series at the moment and it's got me thinking heaps
The first quote is from Chapter 10 "The Marauder's Map"

The second quote is from Chapter 17 "Cat Rat Dog."


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  #1440  
Old September 21st, 2009, 11:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
But in this case Snape also knows that he is going to risk his life to protect this kid who is much too willing to put himself in danger all the time. Harry is a risk-taker just like his Dad, and Snape is the one trying to protect him. It's maddening.
Spot on - Snape may be a bully to Harry in the earlier books, but he consistently shows his regard for Harrys ultimate well being.

Indeed, one of the finest examples is where Snape teaches Harry Occlumency. Presumably Snape knew the risk of opening his mind to Harry. Not only would he run the risk of exposing Harry to his personal feelings, but also run the risk of exposing Harrys mind to Voldemort, were Snape to be interrogated by Voldemort at some point.

It is a risk - but Snape showed his ability to take risks where they were for Harrys good.


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