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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



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  #1281  
Old August 16th, 2008, 10:49 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
We've had others size up both Dumbledore and Voldemort as students. Griselda Marchbanks said Dumbledore did things with a wand that she had never seen before, and she's certainly done her share of testing students. And Dumbledore thought Tom Riddle was the most brilliant student that Hogwarts had ever seen. But I can't remember anyone sizing up Snape's abilities that way--other than Ron saying the Prince was brilliant, and Ron was hardly the one to size up magical ability.

Snape was obviously a talented wizard, but we can't know that he was in Dumbledore's league. We know he was an accomplished Occlumens since he was able to conceal his role as a spy from Voldemort. And he did invent a few spells, but other wizards have done the same or there wouldn't be spells. However, we don't know what the remaining wizarding world was doing in the way of creating spells. Therefore, we have no idea if what Snape did as a student was extraordinary.

For instance, the Marauders created the map and it's an amazing tool. And they became Animagi as students, which was also a difficult accomplishment. Also we've been told the Marauders were bright students at the top of the class, which is more than we've heard about Snape. This isn't intended as a Marauders vs. Snape comment, rather it illustrates that we have evidence that shows that Snape was bright and talented, but no evidence that he was extraordinary like Dumbledore or Voldemort. So lacking a reliable assessment from another character in the story, we can't know exactly where on the spectrum his abilities lie.
I have to agree. My impression at the close of canon was that Snape was on level with the other talented wizards like Kingsley, Molly, etc., but certainly not at the level of Dumbledore or Voldemort who were both much older and far more experiened than him. Voldemort taught Snape magic, not the other way around. JKR insinuated Snape would not have been able to pass by Moody's magic at #12 either and stressed he had arrived before it was implemented to keep him out. I also agree we see young wizards creating magic as Snape did and so that does not serve as a basis for his being any more talented than his peers. I feel there were likely many wizards who were more talented than Snape - purely based on their age and experience and canon does not remark that Snape is to be regarded in a league above anothers, certainly not at the level of the greats like Grindlewald, Dumbledore, Salazar, Helda, Rowena, Godric, the Perevell Brothers, Voldemort and ultimately Harry Potter. The creation of Levicorpus or Sectumsempra is on par with the Marauders Map to me as well - not comparable to the philosopher's stone, creation of the Hallows, divining a spell for flying or advanced escapism magic, for example.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 16th, 2008 at 10:57 am.
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  #1282  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:18 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Molly, Kingsley and others would not have been able to fool Voldemort for over 18 yearsand I am sure they did not invent spells before their OWLS and nor did they make corrections to their Advanced Potion Making Book, wicked!


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  #1283  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:43 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Molly, Kingsley and others would not have been able to fool Voldemort for over 18 yearsand I am sure they did not invent spells before their OWLS and nor did they make corrections to their Advanced Potion Making Book, wicked!
Actually we don't know what they did when youngsters, they may have created spells - we simply don't have their backstories. But Molly killed Bella and Kingsley fooled "Many People" - not just one - at the Ministry "for years". We don't know if Snape could do that, but we know he was not qualified to attempt it like Kingsley was, because he was not a well reputed Auror, who had worked at the Ministry for years. In the same way Kingsley had never been a loyal Death Eater and would never be trusted by Voldemort. So it came down to having the best man in the job. We know that Snape was a good occlucmens, but not the only very good one. Bella was also good as was Narcissa (although Bella better). And Kingsley would have had to practice it too. But Kingsley was a wicked Auror and had those skills down pat - whatever they were - which Snape did not. So I feel it is all relative.

In my judgment, the evidence you provided does not show anything but that Snape was good at skills and had the reputation and backgorund to make him perfect for the job as spy with Voldemort (and note there were other spies at various times.) Kingsley was skilled and had the background making him a perfect spy in the Ministry (and there were other spies). But it does not place either of them on the level of Dumbledore, Grindlewald, the House Founders and the Perevell Brothers or Voldemort. Those individuals were shown to be far and above the others. Snape did not invent flying - he learned it from Voldemort, who was the one who divined how to do it and flew in 7 Potters when Snape was still on a broom. Further, in comparison the magic we saw from Dumbldore - or the Hallows created by the brothers - or Voldemort Flying and the other magics he worked in canon are far more advanced to any of Snape's efforts we saw in canon, imo. Indeed in the end, Voldemort killed Snape at a time when it was crucial for Snape to remain alive (so he could deliver the memories), but Voldemort defeated Snape and killed him - so that I think speaks for itself. Thus, that is what I base my opinion on - though I respect your view.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 16th, 2008 at 11:50 am.
  #1284  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:52 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Molly, Kingsley and others would not have been able to fool Voldemort for over 18 yearsand I am sure they did not invent spells before their OWLS and nor did they make corrections to their Advanced Potion Making Book, wicked!
Well we don't know what they did as students. BTW, being a good Occlumens doesn't necessarily mean all Snape's skills were on a par.


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  #1285  
Old August 16th, 2008, 3:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Actually we don't know what they did when youngsters, they may have created spells - we simply don't have their backstories. But Molly killed Bella and Kingsley fooled "Many People" - not just one - at the Ministry "for years".
What makes these three (DD, Snape and voldemort) formidable is their application of their skills, more than anything else IMO.

I agree we don't have others back stories, but we have to go with what we have. I am sure there were others who were just as brilliant if not more brilliant than Dumbledore or Voldmeort or even Snape.

Aong those whom we see, I think Snape was in no way less capable than Dumbledore or Voldemort. Ironically he became the most trusted person of the leader of the 2 sides. He was able to command the trust from them, knowing about Voldemort's plan of killing Dumbeldore and Dumbledore's plan of killing Harry. Both very 9important to the war and the final result.

But even if we argue that Snape was in the position of a spy and because of that he was aware of what he was, no other member of the Order knew what he did and no DE knew Voldmeort's plan. He was able to inspire confidence because of his skills and capabilities from the 2 leaders.

This kind of respect I think he was able to command because he had the skills necessary to deliver. Otherwise each side had many loyal and brilliant followers.

Snape was Master of potions, DADA, Dark Arts and he had enough knowledge of Charms to craft spells. I think combined with his courage and reflexes (he exhibits them with Minerva in DH) and his presence of mind and his ability to remain calm under pressure (the whole of 6th year must have been terrible), GOF: going back to Voldemort a couple of hours late and convincing him that he was indeed a DE, all come under skill, capability and proper application of knowledge IMO.

Brilliance unless applied properly IMO would be useless. I am sure there were brilliant witches and wizards more than even Albus Dumbeldore, better in logic and everything; Nicholas Flamel springs to mind and there must have been others also. But it was Dumbeldore who applied his intelligence and his skill in such a way that he stood out. In that way, I feel Snape too was brilliant; brilliant in the application of his skills, brains and knowledge in a way that made him formidable. More than others IMO.

Quote:
So it came down to having the best man in the job.
I agree with this.

Quote:
We know that Snape was a good occlucmens, but not the only very good one. Bella was also good as was Narcissa (although Bella better). And Kingsley would have had to practice it too. But Kingsley was a wicked Auror and had those skills down pat - whatever they were - which Snape did not. So I feel it is all relative.
Snape was able to stand Voldemort's Legilimency after GOF when he went 2 hours late. This alone showed his expertise of that Art IMO.


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  #1286  
Old August 16th, 2008, 4:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
What makes these three (DD, Snape and voldemort) formidable is their application of their skills, more than anything else IMO.

I agree we don't have others back stories, but we have to go with what we have. I am sure there were others who were just as brilliant if not more brilliant than Dumbledore or Voldmeort or even Snape.

Aong those whom we see, I think Snape was in no way less capable than Dumbledore or Voldemort. Ironically he became the most trusted person of the leader of the 2 sides. He was able to command the trust from them, knowing about Voldemort's plan of killing Dumbeldore and Dumbledore's plan of killing Harry. Both very 9important to the war and the final result.
I would respectfully disagree. Dumbledore kept many secrets from Snape. Most of what Harry was doing and what he discussed with Harry and Snape was not privy to any of the private conversations that Dumbledore had with other Order members. Despite Snape's excellence at Occulmency, Dumbldore did not trust Snape's skill enough to divulge everything to Snape because he had more faith in Voldemort's skill at Legilimency and feared he might be able to get the truth out of Snape. So I am not sure why you feel Snape was the most trusted - it seems to me, Dumbledore had equivalent faith in everyone, and trusted Snape as much as the others; he simply told each person all that he felt they needed to know. Volemort too divulged nothing to Snape that we know of that he had not divulged to others about his plans. We know he taught Snape magic, but he also taught Peter and Lucius magic - and I would guess Bella as well seeing as she was in a higher position than either Peter and Lucius.

Quote:
But even if we argue that Snape was in the position of a spy and because of that he was aware of what he was, no other member of the Order knew what he did and no DE knew Voldmeort's plan. He was able to inspire confidence because of his skills and capabilities from the 2 leaders.
What plan of Voldemort's are you referring to that Snape knew and no one else did? To my recollection, all of the DEs knew Voldemort's plan with respect to Harry - both as an infant and as an adult.

Quote:
Snape was Master of potions, DADA, Dark Arts and he had enough knowledge of Charms to craft spells.
Snape was a potions master and he definitely was good at the subject. He was also well versed in the dark arts. But many, many others had equivalent skills, both in these arts and others. There is no evidence that he was a better potions master than Slughorn, for instance. There was also no evidence that he had more mastery over the dark arts than Voldemort. On the contrary - Voldemort seemed to know much more about the subject than Snape did. I would respectfully disagree that Snape mastered DADA, but I respect your view.

Quote:
I think combined with his courage and reflexes (he exhibits them with Minerva in DH)
I believe that numerous wizards showed courage and quick reflexes in canon - including McGonagall in that very encounter. Dumbledore's against Voldy; Voldy's against Dumbledore's; Lupin's against Lucius'; Hermione's against the DEs in the battle and more. I don't think this serves to show Snape standing out among others in the series in as far as ability.

Quote:
and his presence of mind and his ability to remain calm under pressure (the whole of 6th year must have been terrible),
I am not certain what this has to do with skill or fighting expertise as a wizard. Could you clarify?

Quote:
GOF: going back to Voldemort a couple of hours late and convincing him that he was indeed a DE, all come under skill, capability and proper application of knowledge IMO.
Again, I am not certain why this would apply to Snape's skill as a wizard. This speaks to his ability to be convincing, imo. Lucius did the same, managing to talk his way out of torture in GoF and convince Voldemort to accept him back. Other DEs were not so lucky.

Quote:
Brilliance unless applied properly IMO would be useless. I am sure there were brilliant witches and wizards more than even Albus Dumbeldore, better in logic and everything; Nicholas Flamel springs to mind and there must have been others also. But it was Dumbeldore who applied his intelligence and his skill in such a way that he stood out. In that way, I feel Snape too was brilliant; brilliant in the application of his skills, brains and knowledge in a way that made him formidable. More than others IMO.
I agree that Dumbledore stood out with respect to his skills, but I feel that you have failed to provide any canon evidence that Snape also did so. I respect your view if this is your belief, but I don't feel that we are shown that Snape had any type of extraordinary skill as a wizard that would place him in a class with the greatest wizards of all time. I don't feel that the creation of spells (in line with the Marauders youthful efforts with the amazing Map) nor courage alone places Snape (or the Marauders) in a class with wizards like Dumbledore and Voldemort - or the creators of the Hallows, the Perevells. It is possible that some of these younger wizards like Snape might one day grow into greatness; but since most of them died early, we cannot know.


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  #1287  
Old August 16th, 2008, 4:27 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

IMHO, all three wizards were more powerful than each other in various ways. Dumbledore was the best duellist. Snape was the best Occlumens. Voldemort more was willing to do anything to achieve his goals. It's really hard to tell who was the most powerful overall because we lack information.

And I agree with TGW that Snape was perhaps the only one who could have spied on Voldemort as successfully as he did.

Snape's life properly equipped him for such a job. He came from a broken home, was bullied mercilessly for years, and grew up to see horrible things that no one ought to see. It's a natural reaction for some to repress one's own feelings about those things. In a cruel world, any sign of emotion spells danger for you. IMO, that emotional repression would have been useful in learning Occlumency. Molly or Kingsley both lacked the Dark Mark and the disposition to carry out the job.

I forgot to post my thoughts about the scene I added, so I'll do that now.

Quote:
What's Snape thinking here?
Something along the lines of "AHA! Caught you, Lupin! I know you and Black are allies and I'm going to prove with this piece of parchment that you are helping him get to Potter!"

Quote:
How worried about Harry was he?
Extremely. He's not blind. He sees Lupin's "closed expression" and his shared glances with Harry-- he's in the same room, after all. Since he thinks that Lupin is helping Sirius into the castle, to find out how close Lupin and Harry are would have been terrifying.

Quote:
How much did his rivalry with the Marauders play into this?
Not much. Perhaps it made him predisposed to think Lupin was guilty, but he's mostly acting on his suspicions-- suspicions that Lupin's and Harry's behaviors are unfortunately not quelling.

Quote:
Other thoughts?
A couple things...

1. I wish Harry had looked back at Snape as he left the room. What would Snape's expression have been, I wonder...? Angry that his plan to expose Lupin did not work? Frightened that Harry was leaving with Lupin? Perplexed by Ron's sudden entrance?

2. It's interesting that Snape says the map is "full of Dark Magic", while Lupin counters that it seems an insulting but harmless prank. Where have I heard that before?

3. I love the way everyone communicates here. Nearly all of Snape words have more than one meaning. He's so convinced that Lupin knows what he's talking about that he sends the man hidden messages, trying to tell him he's onto him. And then, on the other side, Lupin sends hidden messages to Harry with glances, expressions, and excuses. And Harry's not talking at all because he doesn't want to get in more trouble than he is. No one is being forward. They're all being so secretive that I'm guessing nobody really understood each other much by the time Ron came in.


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Last edited by ignisia; August 16th, 2008 at 4:30 pm.
  #1288  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape, I felt was the better than Voldemort, because he was able to fool Voldmeort for over 18 years. His brilliance could be seen in the Potions book and his mastery in 2 subjects at least; Potions and DADA, not to mention knowledge of the Dark Arts, Occlumency and Legilimency and he could fly.

No one really spoke highly of him, because we were seeing everything through Harry's eyes and we all know what Harry thought of him until he saw the memories.

Snape was also the only person Dumbledore trusted, as much as he trusted another anyway, I supoose.

So I concluded that Snape was indeed better than Voldmeort and ranked 2nd only to Dumbledore.
My thoughts precisely!

I think I should have said generation as in Dumbledore was the most powerful and intelligent member of his generation, while Snape was the most intelligent and powerful member of his... and Snape was second only to Dumbledore.

I think no one noticed Snape because he is an INTP and because he was the sort of person that people tend not to notice... think of students who fall through the cracks of schooling because they have personality conflicts with other students and professors.


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  #1289  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I'm just curious why you think Snape would be INTP under the Myers-Briggs classification. The popular quiz by Pirate Monkeys that matches people with HP characters has him as an INTJ, and that has made sense to me. WHich would still make him a stay in the background sort of guy.


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Last edited by arithmancer; August 16th, 2008 at 11:41 pm.
  #1290  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I'm just curious why you think Snape would be INTP under the Myers-Briggs calssification. The popular quiz by Pirate Monkeys that matches people with HP characters has him as an INTJ, and that has made sense to me.
I'm not very familiar with the Myers-Briggs classification, so I can't say whether INTJ fits Snape better, but from the link provided, it does look like Snape has many of the traits of the INTP. He is a very logical thinker who places a lot of emphasis on knowledge. Perhaps it isn't true that Snape prizes knowledge above all else (I'm not quite sure what quality he would prize above all others), though he is certainly a very bright man. I also think the part about expressing ideas correctly and succinctly describes Snape pretty well, as he doesn't waste his words. I'm sure there are other similarities between Snape and INTP from looking at the link provided, but I'd love to see what the INTJ looks like compared to Snape's personality.


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  #1291  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Here is INTJ, from the same site:

http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ.html

To me, the two things in this description and not in the other than seem to fit better, are
1) An emphasis of applying insights and theories to real life/practical things. Both his research into spells and potions as a boy, and his long-time careeer as a spy, seem to me to fit better here.
2) Leadership - an INTJ will stay in the background, but will step forward if the need arises. I feel this, too, fits Snape. He made a number of independent choices in the books - I doubt he has occasion to discuss with Albus whether the UV was a good idea in advance of that request, for example. Or going after Lupin into the Shack, for another. Or his handling of Lockhart during the crisis in CoS (which the other teachers followed along with).


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  #1292  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
It's interesting that Snape says the map is "full of Dark Magic", while Lupin counters that it seems an insulting but harmless prank. Where have I heard that before?
I am not sure where you have heard that before. But we know the map was not full of dark magic. The only portion that Snape saw at that point was indeed nothing more than an insulting and harmless prank. Surely Snape, who spoke in a more sarcastic and abrasive manner to his own students saw the dark humor in the messages? Although since they were directed at him, he may not have found them funny. I always saw Snape in canon as a person who derived pleasure from doling it out, but could not take it at all.

Quote:
I love the way everyone communicates here. Nearly all of Snape words have more than one meaning. He's so convinced that Lupin knows what he's talking about that he sends the man hidden messages, trying to tell him he's onto him.
To be honest, I have a hard time believing that Snape didn't recognize the names. The Marauders were shown to have used them openly and even in front of Snape (SWM). So I believe he had to know the map was an invention of the Marauders. That to me made it ironic that he would say it was full of dark magic, because he knew it would not be associated with dark magic at all, but rather he was the one up to dark magic back in those days. However, he may have simply said it to try and goad Lupin to anger - toward the end of exposing him as Sirius' helper. But if that was his goal, it would not have succeeded because when it came to the negligible, Lupin was the least goadable person in canon.

Quote:
And then, on the other side, Lupin sends hidden messages to Harry with glances, expressions, and excuses. And Harry's not talking at all because he doesn't want to get in more trouble than he is. No one is being forward. They're all being so secretive that I'm guessing nobody really understood each other much by the time Ron came in.
. But actually I think that there was some understanding going on. I believe Snape knew the map belonged to the Marauders in the past (he even suggested the 'owners' gave it to Harry); and that Lupin understood he was insinuating that he was in with Black. Snape I think understood Lupin was hedging, but did not understand the real reason why. Lupin in fact was assisting Harry. I think he understood that mischief was in Harry's blood (in fact JKR confirmed this was true in an article speaking about his nature, I'll link it below), and was giving him some quarter. But Lupin did make Harry feel ashamed of himself afterward; where Snape had only made him angry. I also feel everyone present knew Ron was lying .



JKR's Inspiration for Harry's character:    


  
Demetriou, Danielle. "Harry Potter and the source of inspiration," The Daily Telegraph (London), July 1, 2000
THE author of the best-selling Harry Potter books revealed for the first time yesterday the identities of the people who inspired her characters.

Ian Potter, whose childhood antics have startling similarities to those of the fictional schoolboy wizard, lived just four doors away from J K Rowling as she was growing up in the village of Winterbourne, near Bristol. Cantankerous Aunt Marge, the overweight and beastly relative who keeps bulldogs, was based on Rowling's maternal grandmother Frieda, who preferred "her dogs to human relatives", according to the author. Inspiration for Professor Snape, the spine-chilling teacher at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, who made Harry's life a misery, was drawn from a teacher at Rowling's former school - although she declined to name him. The character of Ron Weasley, one of Harry's best friends who comes from a poor but loveable family, was based on Rowling's oldest friend, Sean. His full identity remains hidden. Harry's other best friend Hermione, the studious and courageous book-lover described by Rowling as the "most brilliant" of the three friends, is the author as a young girl. Rowling, 34, said yesterday: "My American editor says that I am mean to her because she is me. But I don't think that I am mean to her. I love her dearly."

More than 30 million Harry Potter books have been sold worldwide since 1997 and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, the fourth in a series of seven books, will be published next week with a print run of one million copies. The Hollywood film "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" is expected to be released in November 2001.

Dressing up as wizards and witches, concocting fantasy potions and telling stories were just a few of the games Rowling played as a child with Ian Potter and his little sister Vikki. Mr Potter admitted that he was a mischievous boy who loved playing pranks. "The girls, including Joanne, used to dress up as witches all the time," said Mr Potter, 35, a damp-proofer, who lives in Yate, near Bristol. "And the boys, obviously, would be wizards. I was one for tricks, especially in my younger days. I used to get my sister and Joanne to go in for me and ask my parents if I could stay out a bit later."

Mr Potter, whose two daughters, Charlotte, nine, and Shannon, five, are both Harry Potter fans, said he felt privileged to have played a role in the creation of the childhood hero. Vikki Potter, his younger sister, described how he was always getting into mischief in a similar way to the fun-loving trainee wizard Harry. "Ian was the perfect inspiration for the mischief- making wizard character," said Miss Potter, 32, of Chipping Sodbury. "He was a total nightmare, a real horror. He used to do things like booby-trapping the stabilisers on my bike, collecting tadpoles in jars and then plastering the green slime everywhere. He had this thing about slugs." Miss Potter, a sales director at a software company, also recalled how Rowling would make potions and read stories as part of their fantasy games.

"I think it's mad to have a hero called Potter but that's typical of Joanne," she said. "We were forever dressing up. Our favourite thing to dress up as was witches. We used to dress up and play witches all the time. My brother would dress up as a wizard. "Joanne was always reading to us. She used to read things like poetry and we would make secret potions for her. She would always send us off to get twigs for the potions."

Rowling's grandmother Frieda, who inspired Aunt Marge, was illegitimate, born of Scottish parents. She was abandoned in a London nursing home, whose owners adopted her.
  



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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 16th, 2008 at 11:58 pm.
  #1293  
Old August 16th, 2008, 11:58 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Great discussion!

What distinguishes a great wizard from a good one in my mind is the creative/intuitive leap they can make. What I mean by that is that a good wizard learns how to do particular spells/charms and can perfect their application ; I see Hermoine in that category - a "book-learned" witch (who goes on to use her knowledge brilliantly).

But a great wizard creates new magic or subverts existing magical practice. Dumbledore is unquestionably a great wizard within this definition ; he makes enormous intuitive leaps that have little to do with having learnt magical practice - but which seem more about a profound ability to make mental leaps about the people around him.

Voldy....well, we're told he's gone further than any other wizard in the practice of the Dark Arts.....certainly brilliance....but destructive rather than creative?

And I count Harry as a great wizard - also someone able to think outside the box (or spell book ) and to make intuitive leaps when others aren't as far ahead in their thinking.

Now Snape...Snape is clearly a great wizard IMO ; he's creative (the Prince's exploration of potions beyond book-learned recipes for example) and also profoundly intuitive (fits in with his Myers-Biggs classification - I'm an INFJ, we're made for each other! ). Although would it be more accurate to say his powers of Legilimency are what makes him able to make mental connections, rather than genuine intuition? No, I think he's intuitive ; I see it in his death scene when he clearly knows what Voldy is leading up to, with his talk of the Elder Wand.....he's put two and two together very quickly there and I don't think it came from Legilimency.

But I suppose it depends on what we really mean by "greatness" ; for me, it means morally great as well as practically brilliant. Dumblefore fits the bill. Voldy doesn't. And that's really the central question for me about Snape - can I call him morally great?


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  #1294  
Old August 17th, 2008, 12:00 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Here is INTJ, from the same site:

http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ.html
Thanks zgirnius.

In addition to the points you outlined, I see this sentence as describing Snape to a T:
Quote:
INTJs live in the world of ideas and strategic planning. They value intelligence, knowledge, and competence, and typically have high standards in these regards, which they continuously strive to fulfill. To a somewhat lesser extent, they have similar expectations of others.
This just describes Snape quite well indeed. He has a very low tolerance for fools or foolish behavior, which comes across loud and clear during his potions lessons. He most definitely holds others to a high standard of excellence, as well as himself.

It's very interesting that the title of this personality type is "The Scientist". As a scientist myself, I can't decide whether I'd fall into this category too. But alas, you have to pay to take the questionnaire, so I guess I won't know which type I am.


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  #1295  
Old August 17th, 2008, 12:08 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

You can do the test free at similarminds.com, Remus (sorry, don't know if I'm supposed to give names of other sites here)

It's on the 16 Jung type tests page


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  #1296  
Old August 17th, 2008, 12:23 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Well, INTPs value intelligence and competence above all else, which is definately a trait of Snape's... also INTPs prefer to keep their options open and can "try on" different views, which I think is what he was doing when he was a double agent for the Order.

INTJ's superpower is not only knowing what they know, but also knowing what they don't know. Snape did not seem to have this ability - I think he instead has the INTP superpower of knowing the weaknesses and knowledge-gaps of others and exploiting them to his advantage.

That is basically why I think that Snape is an INTP rather than a INTJ... but because he is an INTx he will have most of the traits shown by INTJs, but in a more weak expression.

I personally am an INT- with equal expression of P and J, and of all the characters, I found that Snape thought the most like I do... which was interesting to me, as he is such a dark and bitter person. I found it interesting to have a character who was so different from me thinking like I do!


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Last edited by Prof_Weasle; August 17th, 2008 at 12:30 am.
  #1297  
Old August 17th, 2008, 12:52 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof_Weasle View Post
Well, INTPs value intelligence and competence above all else, which is definately a trait of Snape's... also INTPs prefer to keep their options open and can "try on" different views, which I think is what he was doing when he was a double agent for the Order.
Not when he was a kid, though. He was set on becoming a Death Eater and nothing anyone said to him could change that. Even as an adult, he never considered giving Harry a chance. He was determined to hate him from the second they met.


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Old August 17th, 2008, 1:55 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Not when he was a kid, though. He was set on becoming a Death Eater and nothing anyone said to him could change that. Even as an adult, he never considered giving Harry a chance. He was determined to hate him from the second they met.
I agree. I don't think that these types of tests work with fictional characteres because the author may not be that personality type and rather than truly trying to stick to a 'model' type person, s/he creates the character to fit what is needed in the story at any particular time. So I believe you often see divergences for this reason.

Snape didn't show a predilection for keeping his options open and trying different views, in my judgment. He seemed very set in his views and ways, and only changed once when and if a tumultuous and personal event befell him. I would agree he was bitter and mororse, his disposition generally sour; but he could turn that off if he wanted - for example when dealing with his Slytherin students; the Minister of Magic and at times, Dumbledore. But in that way I felt he was singularly minded in his selectivity.

I think when young, Snape had the same singular selection; reserveing his less than sour disposition for his Slytherin mates and for Lily until their friendship ended. However, I think he was sour with the rest of the student body and it was that together with his dark arts interests and acts, which made him unpopular among the students.

We didn't see Snape as a death eater, but I would imagine that he would have been popular within that crowd. However, at his turn, he seemed to isolate himself and withdraw, only interacting with others infrequently; perhaps a few words at a meal or with respect to work with his peers and in the classroom with his students. I would imagine that he was a little more accessible to his Slytherin students, but even then, I doubt that he established very warm relationships with any of them - but to be fair, I am not sure any of the heads of houses did much of that sort of thing in general.


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  #1299  
Old August 17th, 2008, 2:03 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I agree. I don't think that these types of tests work with fictional characteres because the author may not be that personality type and rather than truly trying to stick to a 'model' type person, s/he creates the character to fit what is needed in the story at any particular time. So I believe you often see divergences for this reason.
I think so too. Some characters may have characteristics that identify with personality types but they usually won't be an exact match. Snape is a creation of JKR's so he is how she wants him to be. She made him to fit a role in the story, like you said. I think one would be hard-pressed to find a personality type for every HP character, especially the complex ones like Dumbledore.
Quote:
I think when young, Snape had the same singular selection; reserveing his less than sour disposition for his Slytherin mates and for Lily until their friendship ended. However, I think he was sour with the rest of the student body and it was that together with his dark arts interests and acts, which made him unpopular among the students.
I got this impression about him too, especially from an early age. He immediately takes a disliking to James when he finds out that he wants to be a Slytherin. Throughout his time at Hogwarts it seems like he strongly disliked others who were from other Houses and had different opinions. He seemed shocked that Lily didn't like his idea of becoming a Death Eater. Probably a case of, "I have this opinion so why doesn't everybody else?" His only friends at school were the other Death Eaters because they were the only ones who shared the same opinion. Lily could no longer be his friend because she had no interest in the Dark Arts. That's my honest opinion on it.


  #1300  
Old August 17th, 2008, 2:33 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I agree. I don't think that these types of tests work with fictional characteres because the author may not be that personality type and rather than truly trying to stick to a 'model' type person, s/he creates the character to fit what is needed in the story at any particular time.
I agree writers don't sit down to write someone of a particular personality type. That they imagine a person, and write their story, is probably closer to the process. However, whatever it is they write, creates in us an idea of that fictional person, and the more information we have, the more we feel we can judge thiings about the character, and the more evidence we have to defend them. Many have argued Snape is brave, or cunning, or deliberately cruel, or any number of other things, based on their impressions from his actions in the book. Identifying a personality type is the same thing. After all, real people do not fall perfectly into 16 types either.

And I find it an interesting change of pace, because whether Snape belongs to one type or another, provides a reason to discuss his actions in a value-neutral way. AN INTJ (of INTP, or any other type) can be a scoundrel, or a saint.


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