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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



View Poll Results: Snape's main feeling for James would be...
Loathing 25 15.53%
Contempt 16 9.94%
Envy 27 16.77%
Hatred 17 10.56%
Jealousy 59 36.65%
Regret 0 0%
You're evil for restricting the options and not even putting up my favourite. 17 10.56%
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  #61  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by RWeasleysgirl View Post
I disagree, there was canon that Snape felt hatred towards him, but for at least that scene where Snape was so angry at Dumbledore for raising Harry "as a lamb to the slaughter", I saw definite proof in my own mind that a part of him also really cared about the kid.
Maybe, maybe not. When Snape agreed to do the job that Dumbledore wanted him to do, he did it because he thought it would help Lily's memory somehow by keeping Harry alive. I think that Snape's reaction in that scene was only angry because his work had all been for nothing. And even if he was a mean and cruel person, Snape wouldn't have wanted Harry to just die. It doesn't mean he cared for him.


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  #62  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I agree that Harry is indulged by the adults in his life, and I too think that this reminds Snape horribly of James and his friends.
I have had similar thoughts about Snape trying to even things out.
Which is partly why I feel he was more than a little unfair to Harry, who hadn't been treated with any kindness, forget being indulged, by any adults till he became a part of the wizarding world (not a difficult thing when you consider that the main adults in his life were the Dursleys). I think part of him also wanted to believe that Harry was a spoilt brat, so he approached his interactions with Harry in that spirit. Not entirely surprising, perhaps, but sad just the same.


  #63  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
SS/PS Chapter 17, The Man With Two FacesHarry looked up at the High Table at Snape, and knew that his feelings for Harry hadn't changed one jot.

I don't think Snape ever tried to see Harry as a good person, either. He didn't give him a chance from the first Potions lesson they had together, and he was just like that ever since. So I don't think that Snape's feelings for Harry were complex at all, moreover, they were very simple and laid out. All my opinion.
They hadn't changed one jot. Of course not! The next time we see Snape, in CoS, there he is, looking after Harry again just as he did throughout PS/SS (in the form of searching the school grounds for him when he goes missing in a flying car). Harry is so right. (And so wrong! ) But that does not mean Harry was right about what those feelings were.

Snape's feelings about Harry seem the opposite of simple to me. In particualr, I would argue that they develop. You suggest Snape hates Harry, very simple, and over a schoolboy grudge against James. Yet we only hear about James and Snape's opinion of him, in Book 3.

I think Snape is inclined against Harry because of his resemblance to James, and the whole tangled history (surely, adult Snape's feelings regarding adult James's marriage to adult Lily have some relevance?), but I think, in his own way, he is getting to know Harry and forming an opinion over the course of time. That opinion may be biased and inaccurate, but it was not all there the moment Snape looked at Harry from across the Great Hall. We do not hear about Harry's recklessness until PoA, for example (at which point Snape has heard about or witnessed Harry's confrontation with Quirrell, his flying car escapade, his sneaking into Hogsmeade when a murderous Death Eater is supposed to be stalking him, and probably other examples that presently escape me).

And it is not even all negative. You brought up the scene where ALbus Asks Snape whether Snape has come to care for Harry. I'm not going to get into the fact that Snape did not deny the charge, we've been over that on precursor threads a number of times, but I do want to point out the objection to the plan Snape did NOT make: "Surely you don't expect Potter will actually let the Dark Lord kill him?" To me, this says, in Snape's judgment, Harry would have the courage and altruism necessary to go along with the plan. This may not be love, but it is at the least, respect.


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  #64  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
POA, Hermione's Secret
*Snape speaking with the Minister of Magic*

"Ah, well, Snape...Harry Potter, you know...we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned."

"And yet - is it good for him to be given so much special treatment? Personally I try to treat him like any other student. And any other student would be suspended - at the very least - for leading his friends into such danger. Consider, Minister: against all school rules - after all the precautions put in place for his protection - out of bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf and a murderer - and I have reason to believe he has been visiting Hogsmeade illegally, too-"

"well, well...we shall see, Snape, we shall see...the boy has undoubtedly been foolish..."


To me this scene actually tells us something quite profound about Snape, but I don’t know how to explain it without saying something that will sound rather strange & possibly controversial – so take a breath & read through it before you start to throw tomatoes

When I read this excerpt it reminds me of how I think Snape must have felt about the way Dumbledore handled the fall out from Sirius’s werewolf ‘prank’. I think he felt totally let down. From his point of view the popular kids had got away with putting his life is serious danger because they were favourites not just of the other students but of the teachers as well. I think that to him it seemed incredibly unfair.
I respect your interpretation, my response is a little long too, but comprehensive. .

Imo, Snape knew the whole truth and he could not deny those facts to himself:

1) Snape followed the instructions of his enemy, Sirius;

2) Snape approached the Whomping Willow which was against the school rules and used the method Sirius had given him to stop it;

3) Snape traversed the tunnel when he himself was certain that he was going to find a werewolf at the end of it (it was a full moon evening).

And imo, at the time of the prank, Snape's viewpoint included:

4) Snape figured that the Marauders falsely believed they were placing Snape in a dangerous position that Snape was unaware of.

5) Snape believed that he was actually going to pull one over on the Marauders because he knew exactly what he was going to face when he traversed the tunnel - and I presume he had prepared a means of doing so.

6) When Snape, James and Sirius were made to speak to Dumbledore about the prank (we know that Dumbledore made them promise to say nothing about Remus so he did speak to them about it), and Snape accused Sirius of placing his life in danger, imo, Dumbledore would ask how. Snape (or Sirius) would tell him that Sirius had told Snape how to stop the tree, if he wanted to know what was up with Remus. Dumbledore would then ask Snape why he followed that advice in light of #1 and #2. Snape may or may not have told Dumbledore the truth about his foreknowledge, but Dumbledore was brilliant and any other excuse Snape came up with would not fit the picture because he knew of the deep animosity between Sirius and Snape. (Just as he knew about Harry and Draco, yet was witness to almost none of their interaction that we know of). So Dumbledore would access what had really happened - that is, why Snape had really gone into the tunnel. As a result, he would find Sirius and Snape equally culpable for all that had transpired, imo, and the frank Dumbledore would have spelled it out for Snape if he had continued to declare that the situation was unfair.

7) Snape left the incident that day understanding that the role he had played in it had been a non-innocent choice on his part to walk into the tunnel - and that Dumbledore knew it.

Thus, imo, based on the above, Snape as an adult, knew that he had not been treated unfairly in the above situation by Dumbledore. Imo, the unfairness that Snape felt resulting from the werewolf prank was that Sirius had been able to get away with what he'd done (telling Snape how to break the school rules) - because - Snape had been allowed to get away with what he had done (breaking the school rules). And the unfairness was that James (of all people from Snape's POV) came out looking like the hero for having put an end to the prank Sirius started and the rule breaking that Snape started.

That is why I would respectfully disagree that the adult Snape would consider the outcome of the prank to have been unfair with respect to the Marauders getting away with anything and being given deferential treatment by Dumbledore in that instance.

Further, Snape knew that the Marauders spent more time in detention than out (DH-TPT), so he knew that the professors were not giving them deferential treatment in that regard either; Thus I would also respectfully disagree that Snape felt he wished to even things out when it came to Harry based on the Marauders having gotten away with pranks in their youth, because based on the numerous punishments they received, they did not. (HBP - Sectumsempra)

Thus independent of any view Snape verbally expressed in the books, imo, inside, he knew the truth of all of the above. Note that only he and Dumbledore would have known the full extent of Snape's POV.

In conclusion, imo, Snape was not attempting to even things out when he spoke with the Minister of Magic. Imo, his reasons were similar to what they were throughout the series; driven by his jealousy (or envy) and loathing of James, which he had transferred to Harry. Also, Snape was additionally upset because Snape still felt a need to best his youthful enemies, imo and because he still believed that Sirius had been secret keeper (although that in itself would not have been enough to incur his devastating wrath, first because of the role he himself played in Lily's death and second because when Snape finally acknowledged the truth and found out the real culprit had been Peter, he did not show the same amount of uncontainable wrath against Peter for his betrayal of Lily, and indeed Snape even put up with living with Peter in HBP - Spinner's end, showing the control he could have with a betrayer of Lily, imo.)

Quote:
Children need limits – James had been indulged by his parents & continued (from Snape’s PoV) to be indulged by the teachers at school. Now Snape sees Harry continually be indulged by other teachers and allowed to get away with continually breaking school rules.
I respect your view, however, from Snape's POV, he never indicates in canon that the popular kids received preferential treatment and he knew that the Marauders had been punished numerous times for their pranks. Thus, I would respectfully disagree that Snape felt James was indulged by the professors anymore than say George and Fred (also given many detentions) were indulged by the professors in being allowed to remain at Hogwarts. Imo, Snape understood that pranking was considered a "petty offense" (as it was listed on the detention cards [HBP-Sectumsempra] and that the Hogwarts students were not suspended or expelled for pulling them, even multiple times). In addition, his own friends (and Snape possibly with them) engaged in pranking as well, which Snape considered funny and did not suggest that they should be suspended or expelled for it (the dark arts pranking Lily complained about in DH - TPT - although one cannot assume all of their pranks were dark, imo). So that would also show that Snape's internal POV would include the understanding that the normal punishment for pranking did not include suspension and/or expulsion, imo, but detention - and his friends (and possibly him) would get the same punishment when caught, meaning, no one was actually being indulged.

Quote:
Sometimes I think that the unfairness of both the situation’s he has been in and the unfairness of the way Harry is treated overwhelms him and galls him – which appears to be rather strange because the way he treats Harry often seems so unfair.

However I wonder if in some bizarre and somewhat inappropriate manner he was trying to even the balance somewhat? Harry was a celebrity, many people were awed just by the sight of him (especially in PS), he did get preferential treatment, even McGonagall who was normally a stickler for fairness was not immune from such behaviour.
Based on what I have said above, I would respectfully disagree that Snape was basing his thoughts on past unfairness when it came to Harry. However, I do believe that he thought Harry was receiving preferential treatment (and in some cases he was - getting away with outlandish things that went way beyond anything James had ever done (opening the Chamber of Secrets; defying the 2 headed creature to investigate the philosopher's stone; following Black (then considered a murderer) into the S. Shack.)) But Harry of course, had very good reasons for doing these things that only Dumbledore (and possibly Minerva) understood.

Thus, imo, Snape did have a better basis for his requests and demands that Harry be suspended or expelled than he'd had with respect to trying to get the Marauders expelled, from his viewpoint. However, Snape's view did not take into account that Harry was "Special" because he was the boy who lived (and imo, Harry truly was destined to do these things), and Snape thought of Harry merely as little James, taking pranks even further than his father had, imo.

Quote:
I think seeing this would not have been easy for Snape & it would have been even harder for him that Harry, who looked so like his father, was being treated in such a similar fashion to James.
My above post is quite long..., but based on the points I have made, I would respectfully disagree that Snape felt Harry was treated in a fashion similar to James. James was indeed punished for his pranks, numerous times and Snape knew this (HBP Sectumsempra). Harry did not receive punishment for things like opening the Chamber of Secrets, tussling with the 2 headed creature and entering the S. Shack when he'd been forbidden to do so, but there were extraneous circumstances involved that perhaps Snape did not fully comprehend. Indeed, even Harry's punishment from McGonagall and Lupin may have seemed too light or non-existent to Snape, imo. However, I do not believe that Snape was making a comparison to James in that regard because James was punished for the most part and not shown preferential treatment, whereas Harry was not punished for some of his biggest rule breaking experiences and actually was given preferential treatment (as in the example above, even by the Minister of Magic - and we saw this before when Harry broke the rules and blew up his Aunt - he'd been given preferential treatment by the Minister then too - and again, because he was the boy who lived. That had been at the start of the same year and Snape would have noted this, imo. (POA Aunt Marges Big Mistake/The Knight Bus))

ETA: On a final note, I would like to make it clear that Snape was not attempting to put Harry in danger, merely cause him to suffer a humiliating punishment (suspension/expulsion), imo. I note specifically that after GoF, Snape never asked anyone to expell Harry and in HBP, even Dumbledore would have been hard pressed not to expell Harry after he'd nearly killed Draco with Sectumsempra, imo, if Snape had divulged everything to the Ministry under everyday conditions. Too, note that Draco would have been easily up for explusion after passing the cursed necklace imo, but was not. The times became very dangerous indeed after GoF and neither Snape or any other professor were requesting suspensions or expulsions during that time, because, imo, they understood the consequences might be very dangerous.


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  #65  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Snape's feelings about Harry seem the opposite of simple to me. In particualr, I would argue that they develop. You suggest Snape hates Harry, very simple, and over a schoolboy grudge against James. Yet we only hear about James and Snape's opinion of him, in Book 3.
In the present, that is indeed the first time we hear about their rivalry. But we know for a fact that Snape was already comparing Harry to his father (negatively, too) in The Prince's Tale- during Harry's first year. Only a few weeks or less into Harry's schooling and Snape has barely even given him a chance. He is just assuming that he is just like his father, while truly, in deepest nature, he is most like his Mother. (Sorry, I stole that from Dumbledore! ).
Quote:
I think Snape is inclined against Harry because of his resemblance to James, and the whole tangled history (surely, adult Snape's feelings regarding adult James's marriage to adult Lily have some relevance?),
I don't think that's fair, not fair at all. He should get to know the kid and see that he is actually a good person before he takes out his anger from a dead man on his son. And he thought it was fair that he treated Harry badly because he was still bitter Lily hadn't married him?
Quote:
That opinion may be biased and inaccurate, but it was not all there the moment Snape looked at Harry from across the Great Hall.
But it seems that it is there the moment he looks across the Great Hall. Just look at their first Potions lesson: Snape immediately starts tooling on Harry when he hasn't even done anything yet. (The not paying attention part was only in the movie). It doesn't sound like he gave him a chance at all. Taking points from Gryffindor because Harry hadn't memorized the entire textbook? Again, not fair at all. So I disagree, I do think the negative opinion was there before he even met Harry.
Quote:
And it is not even all negative. You brought up the scene where ALbus Asks Snape whether Snape has come to care for Harry. I'm not going to get into the fact that Snape did not deny the charge, we've been over that on precursor threads a number of times, but I do want to point out the objection to the plan Snape did NOT make: "Surely you don't expect Potter will actually let the Dark Lord kill him?" To me, this says, in Snape's judgment, Harry would have the courage and altruism necessary to go along with the plan. This may not be love, but it is at the least, respect.
Snape is a Slytherin. To take the words of Phineas Nigellus, a Slytherin and Headmaster, "We Slytherins are brave, but not stupid. We will always choose to save our own necks." Snape is merely saying that because he is a Slytherin and that is only what he would do in that situation. He doesn't know that Harry will indeed let the Dark Lord kill him. Just my opinion again.


  #66  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:27 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Maybe, maybe not. When Snape agreed to do the job that Dumbledore wanted him to do, he did it because he thought it would help Lily's memory somehow by keeping Harry alive. I think that Snape's reaction in that scene was only angry because his work had all been for nothing. And even if he was a mean and cruel person, Snape wouldn't have wanted Harry to just die. It doesn't mean he cared for him.
I still disagree.

The work would have been for all the same, except that one extra life would be lost. And Snape was being made to believe that it was either Harry's life, or many other lives, so why would Harry's death upset Snape so badly? Yes, one could argue that it was because Lily's death would be in vain then, but I would think that any means to destroy her murderer would even that out.

Apart from that, there was so much of Lily in Harry, and despite his reluctance to, it seems impossible that Snape did not see it.


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  #67  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by RWeasleysgirl View Post
I disagree, there was canon that Snape felt hatred towards him, but for at least that scene where Snape was so angry at Dumbledore for raising Harry "as a lamb to the slaughter", I saw definite proof in my own mind that a part of him also really cared about the kid.
I agree, but it could have been because Harry reminded Snape of Lily and because Harry was Lily's son. I could see Snape hating Harry though because Harry looked so much like his dad. I'm sure Harry gave Snape that constint reminder of the man who took his love.


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Old May 9th, 2008, 11:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl View Post
I agree, but it could have been because Harry reminded Snape of Lily and because Harry was Lily's son. I could see Snape hating Harry though because Harry looked so much like his dad. I'm sure Harry gave Snape that constint reminder of the man who took his love.
Oh, I'm not denying that, but I'd call it more like resentment or something... Hatred is too strong a word. Any hatred that he had, in my opinion, would have been a conscious effort to really hate him. He definitely hated what Harry represented, in the sense that he was the living embodiment of the fact that Lily chose James, but Harry himself... he projected these images of James onto Harry, he allowed his expectations (perhaps hopes) that Harry would be a nasty kid like his father to overtake his perception of the real Harry. I don't believe for a second that he felt any hatred towards the real Harry, and I even believe strongly that he did care for him, if only subconsciously.


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Old May 9th, 2008, 11:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Could Snape have hated Harry because he was like Lily? It would make Snape more aware of what he had lost, maybe he'd rather just not have that reminder


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  #70  
Old May 9th, 2008, 11:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Lucybird View Post
Could Snape have hated Harry because he was like Lily? It would make Snape more aware of what he had lost, maybe he'd rather just not have that reminder
I don't know. We see in DH The Prince's Tale that Snape really only saw the "James like" qualities that Harry possessed. I believe Dumbledore even said that Snape sees only what he wants to see. Even more so, I think the "self-fullfilling prophecy" was true for Snape when he saw Harry. He only saw him a certian way, treated him that way, and Harry reacted much like his dad would have because that treatment.

I think if Snape saw the personality traits of Lily shine through Harry, then the importance of Harry having her eyes would not have been as significant.


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Old May 9th, 2008, 11:28 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by LoveWeasleys View Post
I don't know. We see in DH The Prince's Tale that Snape really only saw the "James like" qualities that Harry possessed. I believe Dumbledore even said that Snape sees only what he wants to see. Even more so, I think the "self-fullfilling prophecy" was true for Snape when he saw Harry. He only saw him a certian way, treated him that way, and Harry reacted much like his dad would have because that treatment.

I think if Snape saw the personality traits of Lily shine through Harry, then the importance of Harry having her eyes would not have been as significant.
I think it still is as significant, because it forced him to acknowledge his Lily-like qualities. I still believe that he saw them, but he forced himself not to see them, like Dumbledore said.


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  #72  
Old May 9th, 2008, 11:30 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by RWeasleysgirl View Post
Apart from that, there was so much of Lily in Harry, and despite his reluctance to, it seems impossible that Snape did not see it.
Snape loved Lily, and hated James. Harry was a mixture of both of them. Dumbledore told Snape that Harry was exactly like his mother, no matter how much he looked like his father, and Snape ignored that. Snape still said he was exactly like his father. I think it was the Shrieking Shack scene in DH, right before Snape died and while he was bleeding, that he realized Harry was his mother's son. Harry hated him too, and Snape must have realized that. Yet Harry had not left him there, he had gone over to see Snape. Something there touched Snape and he saw that Harry was just like Lily, thus Snape asking him to look at him right before he died.


  #73  
Old May 9th, 2008, 11:36 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
You make a good point based on the detailed definitions. I would agree that envy is more definitive. I just picked jealousy figuring it incorporated both meanings. But I agree that more than one option could be chosen in any case and that Snape's feelings shifted depending on what part of his life we are referring to.
Exactly. I'd have chosen both envy and jealousy, but envy seemed more fitting, IMO.

@mods: Why is this poll using radio buttons instead of checkboxes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy;
I interpreted many of Snape's comments in that light as well. For example when he said James had a "little talent on the Quidditch pitch" (POA, Snape's Grudge) - when it was evident from the cup in the trophy room that he'd been extremely talented.
That is precisely what I was referring to. In addition, we see that James has excellent reflexes, and that Peter and Remus were only spectators. So, I find it hard to believe that Snape was telling the truth about four on one fights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy;
That is an interesting thought, I'd never considered that before. It is possible that Snape was expecting that Harry might more resemble Lily than James on the first day he set eyes upon him.
I looked at the memory in DH again, and Dumbledore makes a mention of Harry having Lily's eyes, and refers to him as 'Lily's son'. He even puts in a dig about Snape trusting the wrong person, much like Lily and James, and his asking if Snape remembers Lily's eyes is, IMO, pouring salt on fresh wounds. I felt that Dumbledore felt no pity for Snape at all, and wanted to guilt Snape into doing his bidding, of protecting Harry. I don't think that Snape would have agreed to, if the point of Snape's responsibility in their deaths wasn't driven in by Dumbledore.

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I disagree, we are shown Snape already needing to protect Harry, and thinking of it in terms of Voldemort vs. Dumbledore, in the first book of the series.
PS/SS"Very well," Snape cut in. "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie."
He tells Bella he thought Quirrell ("unworthy Quirrell") was working on his own to get the Stone. But this is inconsistent with the quoted dialogue - apparently Snape alrady believed Quirrell was acting on behalf of someone else. Who else but Voldemort?
It doesn't have to be Voldemort. It could just as well be that Snape is just questioning Quirrell's loyalty to Dumbledore, without insinuating that Voldemort was involved. Quirrell's loyalty could be to himself. After all, the idea of eternal life and infinite wealth is pretty tempting. And, Quirrell did want the stone for himself and to use it, which is why he was unable to retrieve it.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Had Snape really treated Harry poorly, I don't think Dumbledore would let him be IMO. I don't think Dumbledore would tolerate abuse of any sort in the School.
I can't fully agree with that. Dumbledore was willing to have substandard teachers like Trelawney and Snape, if it meant that he could keep tabs on them. Jo said in an interview that Dumbledore thought that bullying teachers like Snape were lessons in themselves. He would definitely have intervened if matters got out of hand, but generally, he expected the students to take care of themselves.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape was allowed to punish Harry for his various breaking of rules by detention, and I think Dumbledore understood about Snape's feelings for James, and allowed him to be.
On the contrary, I think that Dumbledore disapproved of Snape's mistreatment of Harry, and was rather disappointed that Snape was unable to let go. That is evident from the conversation in the forest, revealed in DH. (Dumbledore shaking his head warily at Snape)

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
In OOTP, Dumbledore explains it clearly; he says that he misunderstood Snape's feelings and wrongly read Argghhh! I forgot(bangs head because she left books at home); it's in OOTP in the Lost Prophecy; where he says something like some wounds run too deep for the healing (Not the exact words).
Again, it sounded as if Dumbledore was disappointed in Snape. He acknowledges that it was a mistake on his part to expect Snape to be able to teach Harry.
OoTP`I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply `But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.'


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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I don't think so; not now at least. Because I am unable to explain with canon why I feel this way. But that Snape had very complex emotions for Harry I feel is certain. The books tell us the story through Harry's eyes, and then in the TPT Harry is given the reasons for Snape's actions and his loyalties, which are very different from what Harry himself understood of Snape all those years. Because we see Harry's acceptance of those reasons as well IMO later.
Okay, so it's a gut feeling, and not something derived from canon?

IMHO, It's not Harry's acceptance of Snape that we see, but forgiveness. He understands that Snape hated him, but also that Snape was always working for Dumbledore, to protect him. It doesn't mean that he thinks his treatment of Snape was justified in any way. He thinks that it is unjustifiable, but forgives him anyway. IMO, Jo draws a clear contrast to Snape not being able to let go of his hatred for years on end, and Harry being able to do so almost immediately.

Morover, only Snape's actions in the war are explained, such as his reason for defecting, and his killing Dumbledore. Snape's behaviour towards Harry is not shown to be affected by it at all. In fact, his behaviour towards Harry doesn't change a bit, even after he knows that Harry has to die soon. Even when he hears that Harry has to die, he is quite calm, and it is only when Dumbledore explains that he has been planning Harry's death from the very start, that it is not a recent development, that he feels shocked. Even then, there is no concern for Harry at all, only shock at Dumbledore having used him.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape's feelings for Harry is a mixture of his feelings for James, Lily, his own thrown away chances, guilt that he handed over the Prophecy and love he had for Harry's mother.
I agree that Snape's emotions were somewhat complex, but IMO, the sum total of all the mixed feelings is pretty clear - Utter loathing for Harry. That is what he expresses, and what is on the text. Anything else is completely unsubstantiated, and pure conjecture.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think these emotions surfaced now and then all through the books, but what held Snape together ultimately was the love for Lily. That won over everything and IMO would not let him hate Harry or loathe him.
I disagree. For one thing, Snape was never ever able to see Harry as anything other than James Potter's son. Ultimately, Harry is the child whose life Snape was willing to exchange for Lily's. I don't think that canon shows that Snape thought of Harry any other way.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Yes he could have; even should have; it was not Harry's problem what Snape did with his life; but I think that's where his past with Harry's parents and Godfther and his own biterness and guilt at his wrong choices came in the way. Snape acts despite himself and I really think he could not help himself regarding Harry.
I agree. Snape's restraint and self-control flew out the window when it came to Harry, or any of James's friends for that matter.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Well the author has made all kinds of statements where Snape's concerned IMO. If we did not have any of her statements about Snape, which are really Harry's statements (the way Harry looks at Snape before book7) I wonder how we would have argued Snape's case.
In that case, wed be arguing over something that it not mentioned in text at all. The text doesn't show Snape ever having any positive thoughts about Harry. I think that the Jo's revelations after DH have more merit, because there's nothing to hide anymore. In any case, Snape's behaviour towards Harry would make no sense if he didn't hate him.

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
However I wonder if in some bizarre and somewhat inappropriate manner he was trying to even the balance somewhat? Harry was a celebrity, many people were awed just by the sight of him (especially in PS), he did get preferential treatment, even McGonagall who was normally a stickler for fairness was not immune from such behaviour.
I see what you mean, but the fact remains that this is simply how Snape felt about things, and not the truth of the situation. To me. it seemed like getting James's son expelled was Snape's (childish) way of getting revenge for the werewolf prank.


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  #74  
Old May 9th, 2008, 11:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Snape loved Lily, and hated James. Harry was a mixture of both of them. Dumbledore told Snape that Harry was exactly like his mother, no matter how much he looked like his father, and Snape ignored that. Snape still said he was exactly like his father. I think it was the Shrieking Shack scene in DH, right before Snape died and while he was bleeding, that he realized Harry was his mother's son. Harry hated him too, and Snape must have realized that. Yet Harry had not left him there, he had gone over to see Snape. Something there touched Snape and he saw that Harry was just like Lily, thus Snape asking him to look at him right before he died.
I say Snape was in denial. Always in denial. He denied that Harry was like Lily, because it was painful for him to see that. It was easier to remember the nasty teenager who bullied him to the brink, than it was to remember the love he lost, so he turned to the anger rather than the sorrow, and chose to see the James in Harry and ignore the Lily in him, but he always knew it was there.


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Old May 10th, 2008, 12:14 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

No, I don't agree at all. First of all, I think that comparison is very unfair to Lily. Lily may have been without compassion to Mulciber and Avery, but for one they were doing evil things and two, she was never actually cruel and bullying towards them. James simply chose Snape because he didn't like him, and bullied him mercilessly and cruelly. That's a very large difference, and Harry would never treat someone the way James treated Snape. If Harry could be comparable to James in that same way, then we would have seen him cursing Malfoy unprovoked left and right, and calling him names... it's just not an equal comparison.


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Old May 10th, 2008, 12:43 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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In the present, that is indeed the first time we hear about their rivalry. But we know for a fact that Snape was already comparing Harry to his father (negatively, too) in The Prince's Tale- during Harry's first year. Only a few weeks or less into Harry's schooling and Snape has barely even given him a chance. He is just assuming that he is just like his father, while truly, in deepest nature, he is most like his Mother. (Sorry, I stole that from Dumbledore! ).
I look upon Dumbledore's statement as his trying to get Snape to acknowlege that Harry was Lily's son too, more than a truthful one. At all other times, Dumbledore and everyone else was telling Harry his deepest nature was just like his father's via actual examples. To my recollection, Lily was not mentioned once. Dumbledore never explained himself and imo, there are no examples of Harry acting contrary to the way his father would, or thinking distinctly (in terms of their deepest natures) and he was even accused of acting instinctively like his dad by Hagrid, Lupin, Dumbledore and Sirius. Snape did not believe Dumbledore because it was not true, imo, but I do agree that Snape also did not respond to Dumbledore's true purpose in acknowledging Harry was Lily's child too.


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Old May 10th, 2008, 12:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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No, I don't agree at all. First of all, I think that comparison is very unfair to Lily. Lily may have been without compassion to Mulciber and Avery, but for one they were doing evil things and two, she was never actually cruel and bullying towards them. James simply chose Snape because he didn't like him, and bullied him mercilessly and cruelly. That's a very large difference, and Harry would never treat someone the way James treated Snape. If Harry could be comparable to James in that same way, then we would have seen him cursing Malfoy unprovoked left and right, and calling him names... it's just not an equal comparison.
Really I think we need to know more about James to say if he had any more reason behind his bullying of Snape, but that is another topic. Of course by the time Lily and James were together Snape would have attacked James anyway...whether in self defense or not. This probably factors in his attitude towards Harry, to see someone who looks so much like James may well make him lash out in gut reaction.


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Old May 10th, 2008, 8:34 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Really I think we need to know more about James to say if he had any more reason behind his bullying of Snape, but that is another topic. Of course by the time Lily and James were together Snape would have attacked James anyway...whether in self defense or not. This probably factors in his attitude towards Harry, to see someone who looks so much like James may well make him lash out in gut reaction.
I agree with the last part of your post, I also get the feeling (now in perspective, having read DH) that Snape's treatment of Harry does have a lot to do with James, whether Snape realises it or not.

But I disagree with the first part. I think what we do know about James from book information is plenty. We are shown quite plainly that he bullied Snape for fun. He himself admits to having no other reason, and no hint is provided that he was hiding some deeper, more relevant reason. We also have canon that things got more personal towards the seventh year, now we know it was because of Lily, and we also know that James grew up and stopped being a bully and an idiot. But that doesn't negate the fact that the bullying did start that way - just because he could. I really see no canon reason to suppose otherwise.


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Old May 10th, 2008, 8:56 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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I think what we do know about James from book information is plenty. We are shown quite plainly that he bullied Snape for fun. He himself admits to having no other reason, and no hint is provided that he was hiding some deeper, more relevant reason.
James hexed Snape in OOTP, SWM, and I thought that was just for fun also until DH. But once the issue of Lily was raised, I realized James was doing it with the motivation of jealousy included. The hint that there was a deeper relevant reason than just for fun was quite elaborately presented when James told Lily that if she went out with him he would never touch Snape again; when James went ballistic when Snape called Lily a filthy little Mudblood and his reaction when Lily told him off at the end of it, imo. That James fancied Lily was obvious to me and so naturally he would be jealous of her friendship with Snape, imo. Snape too reacted out of jealousy in that scene, imo. However, I would agree that neither Sirius or Lily were acting out of jealousy.

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We also have canon that things got more personal towards the seventh year, now we know it was because of Lily,
Here the same type of assumption must be made because there is no plainly stated canon that Snape still liked Lily in 7th year, but it is a logical assumption seeing as he still fancied her some 5 years later, imo. Thus, the fact that Snape hexed James at every opportunity (OOTP Careers Advice) could be interpreted as Snape doing it just for fun, but here again, it makes sense that his motivation included jealousy. James would have no reason to be jealous of Snape in 7th year, imo, so I feel that any involvement on his part would have been out of self defense which Lupin confirmed in OOTP Carrers Advice when he said to Harry, 'you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?'

Quote:
and we also know that James grew up and stopped being a bully and an idiot. But that doesn't negate the fact that the bullying did start that way - just because he could. I really see no canon reason to suppose otherwise.
I would respectfully disagree that canon does not show that there was another deeper reason behind the actions of both Snape and James when younger. Although I agree that while James matured and stopped behaving in a bullying and idiotic manner, Snape grew up and continued behaving in a bullying and idiotic manner. However, at that point Snape's doing so was not always motivated by jealousy (i.e., when he did it to Neville) but at times it was so motivated (ie., when he did it to Harry), imo. However, when Snape was younger, imo, it was was spurred on, at least in part, by jealousy in relation to James, which fueled his dislike of young Potter, and visa versa.


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  #80  
Old May 10th, 2008, 9:17 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Yes, Snape's motivation was jealousy. But in Snape's Worst Memory, I don't think James's was. How do we know he even knew that Snape fancied Lily? Why should he care if they were friends? He didn't bully her other friends, did he? When he says "just because he exists", it doesn't seem like an excuse covering some other reason. It seemed like bragging to me - "because I can". And when he says "Go out with me and I won't lay a finger on Snivellus", I think this is just blackmailing her. He sees she wants something from him and uses it to bully her into going out with him. All very consistent with his 15-year-old self, so aptly described by Lily herself in the rant which follows this less than honourable attempt to get her to go out with him.


 
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