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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



View Poll Results: Snape's main feeling for James would be...
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  #241  
Old May 15th, 2008, 3:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
However, that was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to show that Dumbledore could have told Snape the whole truth and (about the Horcrux), and gained his acceptance to the plan, but he did not wish to do so at that time, imo.
Answered in Albus's thread.

Also: had Albus figured the whole Horcrux thing as early as this?

And I don't think he could've told Snape. He couldn't trust him entirely yet - and what if Voldemort ligilimensed this information out of him? I don't think the reason for withholding this information was because Albus didn't think Severus would agree to spy if he told him the possible outcome. It was more practical than that.



Last edited by Yoana; May 15th, 2008 at 3:35 pm.
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  #242  
Old May 15th, 2008, 3:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I agree, but the thing is, Dumbledore figured out the horcrux just from knowing about the blood sacrifice and the mark on Harry's head. Why couldn't Voldemort figure it out? He was brilliant also.
I think that Dumbledore learnt it from the sorting hat. Though I don't have canon for this, I feel that Dumbledore learnt of the two personalities inside Harry from the hat first and then from Harry's ability to speak parseltongue, second, and his suspicions would have become correct, when he would have known in GOF about Hary's first vision of Frank IMO.

That would have alerted Dumbledore and would have made him aware of a link, which he may have researched and concluded rightly that it was a horcrux. In OOTP, Dumbledore asks Harry to learn Oclumency. So it has to be before than and after Harry joined Hogwarts IMO.

Quote:
Right, but I meant in GoF. By HBP, Snape knew Harry was a horcrux and he believed Harry had to die. By evened out, I just mean that Voldemort thought he could kill Harry and he believed that Harry could kill him. The protection was not going to help either of them in Voldemort's eyes. And Snape believed that too, imo.
Yes he did IMO. That was why he took Lucius's wand intending to kill Harry in the 7 Potters. Snape did not beleiev it because of Harry being a horcrux, which he knew IMO.

Quote:
I would have to respectfully disagree. Imo, Snape loathed James and would have gone along with Dumbledore from the beginning if Dumbledore had told him that James Potter's son, who looked exactly like him with the hair that sticks up, glasses and a similar body type, had to die because he was a horcrux - but they had to keep him safe until the time was right for him to die. But Dumbledore didn't want to tell Snape about the horcrux, so instead, he phrased it as: help protect Lily Evan's son, who has "precisely her eyes, you remember her eyes, Severus." I believe this was a point of manipulation by Dumbledore, he put his request in terms he knew Snape would accept, imo, and as Snape later found out, it had been a lie.
I repectfully disagree. Because Snape turned to the Light when Lily was alive and living with James and Harry, Sirius and Remus and very happily too. When she died, he agreed to protect Harry, because Dumbledore assured him that Voldemort would surely come back. And I think Snape would have kept his word, at any cost. He does, in the books, even when Harry is looking like James Potter, was a Quidditch hero, youngest seeker in a hundred years, always breaking the rules and not knowing his potions IMO.

Quote:
So, I respect your view, but we would likely have to agree to disagree on this point.
Snape and we do that mostly.


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  #243  
Old May 15th, 2008, 3:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think that Dumbledore learnt it from the sorting hat. Though I don't have canon for this, I feel that Dumbledore learnt of the two personalities inside Harry from the hat first and then from Harry's ability to speak parseltongue, second, and his suspicions would have become correct, when he would have known in GOF about Hary's first vision of Frank IMO.
I found it in DH (see below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Also: had Albus figured the whole Horcrux thing as early as this?
(see below)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
I thought Dumbledore figured out that Harry was an accidental Horcrux because of the connection he had with Voldemort's mind. Harry being a Horcrux had nothing to do with Lily's sacrifice.
I respect your view, but it was Lily's sacrifice that protected Harry from Voldemort's AK curse, caused it to rebound, temporarily wipe out Voldemort and leave Harry an unintentional horcrux (soul bit ).

In DH - Kings Cross, Dumbledore explains to Harry how he became a horcrux (soul bit) on the night Voldemort tried to curse him as a baby. He told him that Voldemort's knowledge was incomplete because he did not value the whole deal enough to bother comprehending it - he knew nothing of love (among other things) that has a power beyond the reach of any magic.

Harry says: 'and you knew this? You knew - all along?'
Dumbledore says: "I guessed. But my guesses have usually been good.' (DH - Kings Cross)

In addition, Snape understood this too after Dumbledore explained things in DH TPT, and Snape got upset about it. Snape said to Dumbledore that he'd lied, spied and put himself in danger and it was all supposed to be to protect Lily's son, and now Dumbledore was telling him he'd raised Harry like a pig for slaughter.

So I answered my own question too - why Dumbledore knew, but Voldemort didn't. Dumbledore understood all of the magic involved that night, but Voldemort didn't value the matter enough to look into it.


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  #244  
Old May 15th, 2008, 6:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I thought the "And you knew this - you knew all along" was a reference specifically about Voldemort taking Harry's blood and thus tethering Harry to life as long as Voldemort lived which is why he had the choice to go back at King's Cross. That was what caused the "gleam of triumph" when Harry told Dumbledore about the graveyard scene in GoF.
Voldemort had not understood the power of Lily's sacrifice when he took it within himself by using Harry's blood and thus created a scenario where he would never be able to kill Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
I respect your view, but it was Lily's sacrifice that protected Harry from Voldemort's AK curse, caused it to rebound, temporarily wipe out Voldemort and leave Harry an unintentional horcrux
Yes it was Lily's sacrifice that protected Harry, caused the curse to rebound, destroyed Voldemort's bodyetc., etc... but I thought you had said that Dumbledore knew that Harry was a horcrux because of Lily's sacrifice when the making of the accidental Horcrux only occurred because Voldemort's soul was so unstable and Harry happened to be the only living thing left in the ruins. Lily's sacrifice did not give Dumbledore any information that would lead Dumbledore to suppose Harry was a horcrux. Harry could not have been a horcrux without Lily's sacrifice, but Lily's sacrifice did not mean that Harry was automatically a horcrux - that required the unprecedented event of Voldemort's soul ripping itself - something that no one could have predicted, but Dumbledore guessed that that was what had happened because of the connection between Harry and Voldemort. It was Harry's behaviour - his dreams and visions and scar prickling that caused Dumbledore to sumise that Harry had a part of Voldemort living within him because that was the only thing that explained was what happening to Harry.


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  #245  
Old May 15th, 2008, 10:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Jelousy obviously, it leads to everything.
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  #246  
Old May 15th, 2008, 11:16 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I've just started a re-read of DH and it struck me the quote at the beginning, from 'More fruits of solitude' could well be applied to Snape, I had always seen it as applying to the trio and their friends, but on re-reading me I see it could apply to Snape too

Quote:
Originally Posted by More Fruits of Solitude. William Penn. Emphasis mine
Death is but crossing the world, as friends do the seas; they live in one another still. For they must needs be present, that love and live in that which is omnipresent. In this divine glass they see face to face, and their converse is free, as well as pure. This is the comfort of friends, that though they must be said to die, yet their friendship and society are, in the best sense, ever present, because immortal


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  #247  
Old May 15th, 2008, 11:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucybird View Post
I've just started a re-read of DH and it struck me the quote at the beginning, from 'More fruits of solitude' could well be applied to Snape, I had always seen it as applying to the trio and their friends, but on re-reading me I see it could apply to Snape too
We have a thread on the prologue in The Stone that you may be interested in:
Relevance of Deathly Hollows prologue to the entire series .


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  #248  
Old May 16th, 2008, 12:51 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
We have a thread on the prologue in The Stone that you may be interested in:
Relevance of Deathly Hollows prologue to the entire series .
Yes I've seen that thread.

I just thought it would be interesting here (or maybe I should have posted in the Lily and Snape thread) as is suggests that maybe JK intended to show that Snape's friendship with Lily was what kept him supporting the order all that time, not just before she died


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  #249  
Old May 16th, 2008, 1:34 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
I thought the "And you knew this - you knew all along" was a reference specifically about Voldemort taking Harry's blood and thus tethering Harry to life as long as Voldemort lived which is why he had the choice to go back at King's Cross. That was what caused the "gleam of triumph" when Harry told Dumbledore about the graveyard scene in GoF. Voldemort had not understood the power of Lily's sacrifice when he took it within himself by using Harry's blood and thus created a scenario where he would never be able to kill Harry.
I respect your view, but the way it is written in canon, Dumbledore speaking and then Harry asks his question. Harry said 'you knew all this - all along?' about the whole statement, not just the last part of it, imo. There is nothing to indicate he was only speaking about the final words Dumbledore said as the Elder Wlzard told him about all of it in one uninterupted statement. Plus, if Dumbeldore's statements regarding his lack of knowledge about the Diary are true and his not knowing about the remaining horcruxes at that time, then he had to know about Harry because Harry would have been the only other horcrux and Voldemort's only means of return. Dumbledore knew Voldemort would return because he said so to Snape immediately after the Potters' deaths.

Quote:
Yes it was Lily's sacrifice that protected Harry, caused the curse to rebound, destroyed Voldemort's bodyetc., etc... but I thought you had said that Dumbledore knew that Harry was a horcrux because of Lily's sacrifice when the making of the accidental Horcrux only occurred because Voldemort's soul was so unstable and Harry happened to be the only living thing left in the ruins. Lily's sacrifice did not give Dumbledore any information that would lead Dumbledore to suppose Harry was a horcrux. Harry could not have been a horcrux without Lily's sacrifice, but Lily's sacrifice did not mean that Harry was automatically a horcrux - that required the unprecedented event of Voldemort's soul ripping itself - something that no one could have predicted, but Dumbledore guessed that that was what had happened because of the connection between Harry and Voldemort. It was Harry's behaviour - his dreams and visions and scar prickling that caused Dumbledore to sumise that Harry had a part of Voldemort living within him because that was the only thing that explained was what happening to Harry.
Well Dumbledore knew more than anyone because he'd heard the entire prophecy and knew one could not live while the other survived. He knew about the scar on Harry's forehead from the beginning and he knew Voldemort would return via a horcrux. Imo, that means either he knew it was through Harry the horcrux, or he knew Voldemort had made others already, leaving his soul prime for the ripping. So that is why Dumbledore would have had all the information he needed to figure it out from the start, imo.

Imo, Snape's anger over Dumbledore having told him he was protecting Lily's son instead of raising him for the slaughter does not make much sense if Dumbledore hadn't known either. It had only been little over a year at that point since GoF and Snape said "all these years". I don't think Dumbledore or Snape would put it in terms of 'raising Harry, all these years' if the whole matter had only come to light in the last year and a bit.

Notwithstanding the above, Dumbledore saying that Harry had Lily's eyes - precisely her eyes - you remember her eyes, Severus? - all of that was an overt reminder to Snape of Lily in a moment when the man was so distraught over Lily's death that he declared he wished he were dead. Imo, that was a clear attempt to trigger even more remorse and guilt in Snape to ensure he'd join Dumbledore in his plans. Dumbledore further added the bit about Snape having placed his faith in the wrong person (Voldemort) - another reminder of his past mistakes (both relaying the prophecy and later misplacing his faith in Voldemort in trying to take advantage of the situation he'd created.)

From an analysis standpoint: this harkens back to POA where Snape told Harry that his father was well served to die for placing his trust in Black and showing how hypocritical his statement was, imo. It also harkened back to Snape's earlier request of Dumbledore where he garnered the elder wizard's disgust in asking only that Lily be protected, imo, providing definitive proof that Snape's goal had not been upstanding (Dumbledore's normal compassion is completely lacking in this scene, imo). Finally, it highlighted the fact that Snape still held a lot of jealousy and loathing for James at that point (reinforcing the last point), imo, because in agreeing with Dumbledore's plan, Snape declared that he'd go along with it as long as no one knew about it - especially James Potter's son. And imo, that statement gives insight into why Dumbledore made his request leaving James out of it altogether, even calling Lily "Lily Evans" at that point. All of this was to escape having to tell Snape "why and how" he knew Voldemort would return (via a horcrux) and his real plan, imo. He merely told Snape that Voldemort had enacted 'some magic'.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; May 16th, 2008 at 2:27 am.
  #250  
Old May 16th, 2008, 2:30 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I think the prologue is definitely relevant to Snape. It's a huge theme in all of HP that "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death", meaning those who are dead are not really gone, but remain with us all, giving us strength. We see it with Harry and the Resurrection Stone, but Snape is another example of this. His love for Lily inspires him to do great things and to become a better person, just as love for those he's lost inspires Harry to struggle on despite all his suffering.

As I pointed out on that thread Susan linked to, the Penn quote also alludes to a passage from the Bible, one that I've always thought described the Snape-Harry relationship very well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bible, 1 Corinthians 13, verse 11
When I was a child, I spake as a child,
I understood as a child, I thought as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away
childish things. For now we see through a
glass, darkly; but then face to face: now
I know in part; but then shall I know even
as also I am known.
Throughout most of the books, Severus and Harry are rarely able to really "see" each other as they really are. They are blinded by distrust, prejudices, and a lack of understanding. They see "through a glass, darkly".

The HP series follows a boy as he grows into a man, and I think one of the last challenges Harry has before attaining that maturity was to see Snape for who he is, to simply understand (or "look at [him]"). As children, there have always been adults in our lives (be it parents, teachers, or friends) who we don't understand fully until we become adults. Some children become disillusioned with their parents, for instance, when they reach a certain age.

I think "The Prince's Tale", Harry's fight with Remus , and his admission that Sirius was a reckless godfather are all examples of this. Harry becomes aware of Sirius' and Remus' faults, just as he becomes aware of Severus' good qualities. That doesn't mean he is likely to call Snape "the nicest man I ever knew" and to suddenly dislike Sirius and Remus. Only that he is now an adult and has a much more wholesome and balanced view of his fellow adults.


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  #251  
Old May 16th, 2008, 10:58 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Lovely post, Ignisia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I think the prologue is definitely relevant to Snape. It's a huge theme in all of HP that "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death", meaning those who are dead are not really gone, but remain with us all, giving us strength. We see it with Harry and the Resurrection Stone, but Snape is another example of this. His love for Lily inspires him to do great things and to become a better person, just as love for those he's lost inspires Harry to struggle on despite all his suffering.
I think that's a great summary of the redemptive themes in the HP saga, of which Snape's story is a part ... his story is woven into the tapestry, as it were.

Quote:
Throughout most of the books, Severus and Harry are rarely able to really "see" each other as they really are. They are blinded by distrust, prejudices, and a lack of understanding. They see "through a glass, darkly".
Indeed.

Quote:
The HP series follows a boy as he grows into a man, and I think one of the last challenges Harry has before attaining that maturity was to see Snape for who he is, to simply understand (or "look at [him]").
Yes ... it was Harry's innate compassion that compelled him to draw alongside the dying Snape, even though he still believed at that point that Snape was an evil Death Eater who had killed Dumbledore. He accepts Snape's memories and although his initial reaction after seeing Snape's revelations was hardly an outpouring of sudden affection , nineteen years later Harry has been able to process those complicated feelings and acknowledge what Snape did by naming his son after him. This is why I see Snape's last words, "look ... at ... me" as revelatory, in a way. Whatever Snape meant by them -- probably he just wanted to look into Lily's eyes one last time -- the words carry more than their surface meaning. Well, they do to me, at any rate.

Quote:
I think "The Prince's Tale", Harry's fight with Remus , and his admission that Sirius was a reckless godfather are all examples of this. Harry becomes aware of Sirius' and Remus' faults, just as he becomes aware of Severus' good qualities. That doesn't mean he is likely to call Snape "the nicest man I ever knew" and to suddenly dislike Sirius and Remus. Only that he is now an adult and has a much more wholesome and balanced view of his fellow adults.
I think so too.


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  #252  
Old May 16th, 2008, 12:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I think we see the whole trio grow up in DH, not just Harry, and Harry seeing Snape in shades of gray rather than straight out black and white is part of that. It is a shame that Snape could not tell him the truth earlier on, when Harry would have been able to get help from him, but that ammount of opening up is a scary thing- especially to someone who you dislike. I think it is possible that it was at that point that Snape saw Harry for who he really was too


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  #253  
Old May 16th, 2008, 1:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucybird View Post
I think we see the whole trio grow up in DH, not just Harry, and Harry seeing Snape in shades of gray rather than straight out black and white is part of that. It is a shame that Snape could not tell him the truth earlier on, when Harry would have been able to get help from him, but that amount of opening up is a scary thing- especially to someone who you dislike. I think it is possible that it was at that point that Snape saw Harry for who he really was too
I would like to think so. Good thoughts, Lucybird!

From the Harry Character thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
The memories revealed that Snape loathed Harry till his death, imo, supporting JKR's statement in that regard, but they also showed that despite that, Snape continued to work with Dumbledore even if it meant helping Harry out who he disliked, imo, due to his regard for Lily.
I dispute that the memories revealed that Snape loathed Harry until his death. I dispute it all the more seeing that we never actually see the interior workings of Snape's mind.

This to me is one of the missing notes in Rowling’s depiction of Snape. Ah, well.

Quote:
While Snape did not ask for (and imo, did not want) forgiveness, Harry gave it anyway which says something only about Harry, imo, and his grand ability to forgive even though Snape's loathing of him and mistreatment had been unfair and unfounded on anything to do with Harry himself.
Again, I dispute that Snape would not have – ultimately – wanted Harry's forgiveness. Who knows what his final thoughts actually were, as he lay dying and looking into this boy’s eyes? Rowling doesn't tell us. Giving Harry those memories under those horrible circumstances was not exactly a joyous occasion.

JMO, of course.


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  #254  
Old May 16th, 2008, 2:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I would agree with Pearl on those points, and would like to add that IMO, not only did Harry's forgiveness of Snape say something about Harry, but that it also said something about Snape-- that Snape had earned that forgiveness.
Wormtail and Narcissa had their moments of mercy, but they didn't end up getting a Potter named after them. Why? Because Snape's story is different in that he stuck by his choice, worked hard, and suffered for years for it, ultimately becoming a better person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl
This to me is one of the missing notes in Rowling’s depiction of Snape. Ah, well.
I wouldn't consider it "missing", so much as ambiguous. JKR had to tell things from Harry's POV to keep us guessing, and so we couldn't really have any moment from Snape's POV (since we finally learn the truth after he is dead). There are answers to be found to the question, but they vary.
...And I kind of like it that way.


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  #255  
Old May 16th, 2008, 3:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Wormtail and Narcissa had their moments of mercy, but they didn't end up getting a Potter named after them.
Indeed. One simply can't imagine Harry naming any of his children after Peter ( ) or Narcissa ( )

Quote:
Why? Because Snape's story is different in that he stuck by his choice, worked hard, and suffered for years for it, ultimately becoming a better person.
But not just that. There's a connection between Harry and Snape, through Lily. This connection was, tragically, never resolved between them emotionally while Snape was alive -- and yeah, I do think that was Snape's fault. -- he allowed his bitterness to get in the way of his interaction with Lily's son. But he was Harry's protector, and Harry saw that. So Harry seemed able to accept the connection, embrace it even, through his forgiveness of Snape.

For me the Snape story arc came full circle when I saw those words, 'Albus Severus'.

Quote:
I wouldn't consider it "missing", so much as ambiguous. JKR had to tell things from Harry's POV to keep us guessing, and so we couldn't really have any moment from Snape's POV (since we finally learn the truth after he is dead). There are answers to be found to the question, but they vary.
...And I kind of like it that way.
Well, yes, that's true.


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  #256  
Old May 16th, 2008, 3:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I dispute that the memories revealed that Snape loathed Harry until his death. I dispute it all the more seeing that we never actually see the interior workings of Snape's mind. This to me is one of the missing notes in Rowling’s depiction of Snape. Ah, well.
I respect your view, however, my interpretation in this regard was based on my opinion that the memories revealed why Snape loathed James in a more comprehensive manner, particularly in memory #5 and that Snape transferred those feelings to Harry (evidenced by the memory following James and Lily's death and the one in which he compared James and Harry negatively before Dumbledore privately). In addition, it was based on the memory indicating at what point Snape became aware that Harry had to die (prior to the start of HBP based on Dumbledore already being ill in the Spinner's end Chapter), and relevant to that, I noted that during HBP, Snape continued to treat Harry in the same negative fashion that he always had, imo, and thus, his loathing for Harry (based on that he felt for James) remained in tact in my judgment.

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Again, I dispute that Snape would not have – ultimately – wanted Harry's forgiveness. Who knows what his final thoughts actually were, as he lay dying and looking into this boy’s eyes? Rowling doesn't tell us. Giving Harry those memories under those horrible circumstances was not exactly a joyous occasion.
I respect your view, but JKR said that Snape loathed Harry, unfairly, to his death and I consider that part of the canon.* Thus, in my judgment, Snape would not seek forgiveness for something he did not regret (i.e., loathing Harry because he continued to do so). Imo, Snape was not thinking about Harry at all when he looked into his eyes at the end, but rather about Lily, but I respect your interpretation if you see it distinctly.

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I would agree with Pearl on those points, and would like to add that IMO, not only did Harry's forgiveness of Snape say something about Harry, but that it also said something about Snape-- that Snape had earned that forgiveness.
I respect your view, but JKR said Snape's loathing for Harry was unfair which imo, means that his treatment that arose from that emotion were also unfair.* As such, imo, Snape did not earn Harry's forgiveness, but rather gained it solely because of Harry's compassion and benevolence. To clarify, Snape spying did not answer for Snape's mistreatment of Harry; it was not an apology or request for forgiveness, imo, and according to JKR, Snape continued to be the same man he was at death as he had been in life* and that I interpret to mean that his treatment of Harry would not have changed if he had lived.

*(JKR comments are from interviews in Bloomsbury Chat, Viera NBC and as published on Mugglenet, Feb 2008)

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
There's a connection between Harry and Snape, through Lily. This connection was, tragically, never resolved between them emotionally while Snape was alive -- and yeah, I do think that was Snape's fault. -- he allowed his bitterness to get in the way of his interaction with Lily's son.
Imo, Snape and Harry both had positive feelings for Lily, Harry's mother; but there is also the fact that Snape and Harry had just as intense, but contrasting feelings about James, Harry's father. The latter is missing from the Epilogue, imo. In addition, remorse aside, Snape had participated in the Potter's deaths which also remains unresovled in the epilogue, imo. Finally, the tenor of Snape's emotions for Lily was unbecoming imo, and that too was left unaddressed. This is a very problematic issue for me with respect to the series epilogue because I have very strong feelings about family integrity.

Nonetheless, I do agree with your overall point; I think if Snape had behaved in a kind, caring and respectful manner to Harry, based on his emotions for Lily (which would would have required resolving his feelings about James and finding respect for him), and he had not relayed the prophecy, then he could have created a connection between himself and Harry as others had. But imo, if Snape had been able to do that, the tenor of his emotions for Lily would have changed to a more wistful and contained unrequited love rather than the, imo, fervent and obsessive nature they were shown to have in the series.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; May 16th, 2008 at 4:55 pm.
  #257  
Old May 16th, 2008, 6:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
With respect to Snape; Imo, Harry was not able to find out anything about his actual thinking because he was only presented with basic truths. Snape had been working for the good side, he was motivated by his feelings for Lily, he was jealous of his father and as a result loathed him and had transferred those feelings to Harry because they looked a like, imo. But as to the inner workings of Snape's mind, he received no plain statements from Snape himself. The memories revealed that Snape loathed Harry till his death, imo, supporting JKR's statement in that regard, but they also showed that despite that, Snape continued to work with Dumbledore even if it meant helping Harry out who he disliked, imo, due to his regard for Lily. While Snape did not ask for (and imo, did not want) forgiveness, Harry gave it anyway which says something only about Harry, imo, and his grand ability to forgive even though Snape's loathing of him and mistreatment had been unfair and unfounded on anything to do with Harry himself.
I agree Harry was not able to understand Snape's mind, but he could IMO understand Snape's motive. And when he understood , he also accepted, understood and admired Snape IMO.

He understood that Snape had loved his mother, had huge differences with his father and godfather and a troubled life, including his childhood.

He saw the wrong choices snape made and saw the effort go into rectifying each mistake of his, and I think Harry may have admired him immensely.

Then I think Harry evaluated Snape's relationship with his mother, father and godfather, and he may have also realized that all of them were to blame, except his mother, perhaps.

And Harry may have also seen how honest Snape was when he gave the memories to Harry and the nature of the memories may have shown Harry the intergrity of Snape.

With the history Snape had with James and Sirius, I also think Harry would have known how much Snape set store by love, for he was willing to do anything for not only Lily's boy, but James's son as well.

It may have taken some time, but I think Harry finally realized that Snape never forgave himself for what he did to Harry's mother, and also for his acts as a DE, and so he could never ask Harry for forgiveness as well. Snape did not crave forgiveness IMO, from Harry or indeed from any other, mainly because he could not even think of forgiving himself IMO.

That I think showed Harry, how deep Snape's remorse and regret were, and he realized IMO that Snape was not a brave man for his war activities as a spy, but he was brave in mind too, accepting that there was no forgiveness, and yet striving all the time until he died to undo the mistakes of the past IMO.

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Imo, the epilogue Harry's forgiveness was shown when he honored Albus for the things he'd done on Harry's behalf and when he honored Snape for the things he'd done on his mother's behalf with the naming. Imo, Harry's behavior as shown in the Epilogue (the naming of his second son) was unrealistic and disrespectful to himself and his family with regard to Snape, but I did understand it with respect to Dumbledore.
The reasons I have given above are why I feel that Harry honouring Snape by naming his son after the bravest man Harry ever knew was totally justified IMO.


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  #258  
Old May 16th, 2008, 6:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view, but JKR said that Snape loathed Harry, unfairly, to his death and I consider that part of the canon.* Thus, in my judgment, Snape would not seek forgiveness for something he did not regret (i.e., loathing Harry because he continued to do so). Imo, Snape was not thinking about Harry at all when he looked into his eyes at the end, but rather about Lily, but I respect your interpretation if you see it distinctly.
"Look ... at ... me." I do believe this scene is open to various interpretations.

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Imo, Snape and Harry both had positive feelings for Lily, Harry's mother; but there is also the fact that Snape and Harry had just as intense, but contrasting feelings about James, Harry's father. The latter is missing from the Epilogue, imo.
Does it have to be spelt out though? Doesn't the fact that Harry named his eldest son after his father speak volumes, without Rowling having to bash us over the head with the fact that Harry obviously loved the father he had never known? Especially as we had already seen loving interaction between Harry and James through the Resurrection Stone in The Forest Again?

I mean, look at it this way: little Albus's second name is Severus, which means that not many people will know about it.

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In addition, remorse aside, Snape had participated in the Potter's deaths which also remains unresolved in the epilogue, imo. Finally, the tenor of Snape's emotions for Lily was unbecoming imo, and that too was left unaddressed. This is a very problematic issue for me with respect to the series epilogue because I have very strong feelings about family integrity.
The fact that Snape felt terrible remorse over Lily's death, and had tried to atone for it by agreeing to work against Voldemort, was already firmly established in The Prince's Tale. And if Snape and Lily had had an adulterous affair -- -- then I would totally agree with you on your point about family integrity. Snape's feelings for Lily were 'fervent and obsessive', I agree with you on that point, and, I suppose, it was unbecoming in that way. But he didn't have an adulterous affair and didn't try to steal Lily from James either.

I think it's pretty clear from the HP books and JKR's interviews that family life is tremendously important to her. She said she wanted Snape redeemed and this was her way of going about it. It may feel weird and contrived to some readers, but to be honest, there are other things in Potterverse which I too find weird and contrived. For me it all adds to the Gothic dimensions of the story ... so I can live with it.


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Old May 16th, 2008, 6:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Does it have to be spelt out though? Doesn't the fact that Harry named his eldest son after his father speak volumes, without Rowling having to bash us over the head with the fact that Harry obviously loved the father he had never known? Especially as we had already seen loving interaction between Harry and James through the Resurrection Stone in The Forest Again?
That is not what I meant, . I agree Harry loved his father very much, that was clearly shown. What I felt was missing was how Harry squared the fact that he was honoring Snape, who loathed both he and his father (imo, precisely because he loved his father and himself and presumably did not feel the enduring loathing was deserved as it was based on jealousy and childhood animosity - and in Harry's case, transference. And Lily loved James and Harry with all of her heart and would be incredibly hurt and disappointed by this, imo)

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The fact that Snape felt terrible remorse over Lily's death, and had tried to atone for it by agreeing to work against Voldemort, was already firmly established in The Prince's Tale. And if Snape and Lily had had an adulterous affair -- -- then I would totally agree with you on your point about family integrity. Snape's feelings for Lily were 'fervent and obsessive', I agree with you on that point, and, I suppose, it was unbecoming in that way. But he didn't have an adulterous affair and didn't try to steal Lily from James either.
The part of your paragraph I have bolded is what I was speaking about. Imo, it is very important, but I respect the idea that others may not place as much relevance on it.

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I think it's pretty clear from the HP books and JKR's interviews that family life is tremendously important to her. She said she wanted Snape redeemed and this was her way of going about it. It may feel weird and contrived to some readers, but to be honest, there are other things in Potterverse which I too find weird and contrived. For me it all adds to the Gothic dimensions of the story ... so I can live with it.
Based on my reading of the canon, imo, family integrity was shoved to the wayside to provide for a display of Harry's capacity to forgive and give some basis for redemption for Snape. Imo, JKR's futher elaboration: "I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness. And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. It's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway-" did not help me understand. (JKR interview NBC w/ Viera). Clearly Harry saw the good in Snape and there was good in Snape, but it didn't extend to behaving in a good manner toward Harry or his father's memory, nor did it extend to Harry directly in any way if Snape loathed him, imo.

**seems everytime we move this conversation back and forth between the Harry and Snape threads, we end up talking in terms of the other person .


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; May 16th, 2008 at 7:24 pm.
  #260  
Old May 16th, 2008, 7:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I Finally, the tenor of Snape's emotions for Lily was unbecoming imo, and that too was left unaddressed. This is a very problematic issue for me with respect to the series epilogue because I have very strong feelings about family integrity.
We have spoken a lot about this and I am one of those people who do feel differently about this.

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Finally, the tenor of Snape's emotions for Lily was unbecoming imo, and that too was left unaddressed.
Imo, it is very important, but I respect the idea that others may not place as much relevance on it.
I am one of those and I feel the way I do, is simply because feelings are not under our control. Our reactions to it are (I love the way CathyWeasley put it in the last version ), but feelings come and go. Time sometimes makes one forget them, but at times when one precious love, one precious friendship is all you've got in a miserable life that was half your fate (Snape's childhood and neglect) and half your choice, it is very difficult to let go one the one bright thing you've experienced in your life (and everytime I've typed *your*, I don't mean you, I mean Snape ).

Added to all this Snape had the added burden of having a hand in her death as well. I think Snape was unable to look forward and move on.

While with Harry Snape's control burst everytime he saw him, with Lily, I think that control stayed put. He never breaks her family, never harms James or Harry specifically to get Lily and in fact does nothing IMO.

What he felt for Lily was his; he was responsible about it, taking a promise that no one should know and no one does, until Snape himself shows Harry. That is integrity for me.

To me that's not immoral, but I understand you see it very differently.


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