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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



View Poll Results: Snape's main feeling for James would be...
Loathing 25 15.53%
Contempt 16 9.94%
Envy 27 16.77%
Hatred 17 10.56%
Jealousy 59 36.65%
Regret 0 0%
You're evil for restricting the options and not even putting up my favourite. 17 10.56%
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  #201  
Old May 14th, 2008, 5:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

^Yes I totally agree with you Susan! I always got the feeling he was thinking "Him! The Chosen One! Merlin help us!"


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  #202  
Old May 14th, 2008, 5:30 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I think that the chapter called "Flight of the Prince" in HBP gives a good idea of what Snape was thinking when it came to Harry being the Chosen One. Snape is trying to tell Harry what he needs to know in order to defeat Voldemort, such as keeping your mind closed and learning silent spells. And I think Snape is extremely frustrated because Harry seems unable or unwilling to learn how to do the things Snape thinks he needs in order to beat Voldemort. And from Snape's point of view, he is right. There is no way that Harry would have been able to fight a battle and win against Voldemort. He just doesn't haven't the skills. Snape has no way of knowing, though, that Harry has those extra things going for him that kept him alive. Snape just thinks that Harry is not at all capable or even worthy of being the Chosen One, in my opinion.
Thank you, Susan -- great post!

I always felt there was more going on in that incredibly angry and emotional exchange between Harry and Snape than Snape just venting his ancient grudge at James.

"No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter! You don't have the guts or the ability ..." (Translation: boy, you had BETTER have the guts and the ability by the time you come face to face with Voldemort!)

I feel very strongly that Harry is not some amazing uber-wizard who could take Voldemort on, man to man. I don't think that Harry is at that level even in DH --- not even close. This is completely my own personal interpretation of Harry, of course, and I will be glad to expand on that in his thread.

He does have those extra qualities that will aid him, not least the matter of Lily's protection and Harry's own ability and willingness to sacrifice himself. And I can't quite believe that Snape is not entirely unaware of Harry's better qualities -- I do believe that Snape probably chooses to close his eyes to them. This is because he (perversely, IMO) insists on seeing Harry purely as James Mark Two, despite Dumbledore telling him that Harry's "deeper nature is much more like his mother." Therefore Snape believes that Harry replicates all of James's faults. This is not a fair assessment, of course: James was not quite as villainous as Severus made him out to be, neither is Harry a complete clone of James!

I certainly agree with you, Susan, that Snape doesn't believe Harry capable of being the Chosen One. But as to whether he really did believe that Harry was not WORTHY to be the Chosen One ... my jury is out on that. Oh, yes, he tells Bella and Cissy at Spinner's End how mediocre Harry is, how he'd have him kicked out of Hogwarts if he could. Of course he would tell them that!!! I am not sure how accurately that reflects Snape's true feelings about Harry though. Surely, by the time he has to deliver the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry, he realises that the boy might, after all, be capable and willing of the sacrifice required to defeat Voldemort ...?

Just a thought.


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  #203  
Old May 14th, 2008, 5:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I certainly agree with you, Susan, that Snape doesn't believe Harry capable of being the Chosen One. But as to whether he really did believe that Harry was not WORTHY to be the Chosen One ... my jury is out on that. Oh, yes, he tells Bella and Cissy at Spinner's End how mediocre Harry is, how he'd have him kicked out of Hogwarts if he could. Of course he would tell them that!!! I am not sure how accurately that reflects Snape's true feelings about Harry though. Surely, by the time he has to deliver the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry, he realises that the boy might, after all, be capable and willing of the sacrifice required to defeat Voldemort ...?

Just a thought.
I agree that it is hard to tell if Snape really thinks Harry is worthy of being the Chosen One or not. I think in the earliest years of their relationship, before we see Harry use Sectumsempra on Malfoy, Snape had his doubts about Harry's worthiness. I know that in OotP Harry was pretty much helpless against Voldemort in the Ministry battle. I want to believe that Snape started to see the possibilites that Harry could do it in the end, but I am not sure that canon reflects these thoughts very well. But Snape has far better skills than Harry when it comes to battling an opponent, and that may be the gauge by which Snape judges Harry. But of course, this is just my opinion and the books leave a lot of this to our own interpretation.


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  #204  
Old May 14th, 2008, 5:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

For power. As we all know, he was always picked on as a kid/teenager and had very little friends. Once he became a death eater, he felt that he had more power then anyone else.

As for his feelings towards James, I chose Jealousy. He was jealous of James because he was getting closer to Lily and they eventually started going out and Lily and Snape grew further apart.


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  #205  
Old May 14th, 2008, 7:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I would respectfully disagree that Snape's options were limited by his Slytherin house membership. JKR said that not all Slytherins were budding Death Eaters and in Harry's year she gave us an example of that (a Slytherin who verbally belittled Voldemort and the Death Eaters in Blaise - plus those Slytherins who ultimately returned with Slughorn to fight against Voldemort.) Imo, Snape had the opportunity to be friendly with those Slytherins who were not budding Death Eaters, but he chose his friends from among those who were.
Quote:
I agree. Snape chose those people who he thought would be able to benefit him, with no thoughts about morality.
These posts were originally made on the Snape/Lily thread but I wanted to discus them here away from Lily – so to speak.

I think 11 year old Sev, just starting at Hogwarts & looking to make friends is interesting. The point that he could have chosen to make friends with any member of his house, is true; to a point. That point it is, imo, that when we try to make friends it’s not just about how we act, but also how the other person acts. If A approaches both B & C with overtures of friendships but B is not interested & C is; well it’s not hard to see which will end up being friends. My point here is it’s not just up to Severus; his housemates also play apart in the decision making.


Now we know one or two things about 11 year old Severus & Slytherin house between 1971-78 from Sirius. He lists the following people as part of gang of Slytherins; Rosier, Wilkes, The Lestranges (a married couple therefore he must mean Bellatrix & Rodolphus - despite the fact that his cousin would have left Hogwarts 2 years before either he or Sev got there) & Avery. However we know there are names missing from his list Lucius Malfoy, Rabastan Lestrange, Regulus Black, & Mulciber spring to my mind. That’s quite a large group, and I very much doubt it’s complete.

It seems fair to take an average year size for each house to be about; 5 girls & 5 boys. From what Lily says I have always assumed that both Avery & Mulciber were in Severus’s year. That only leaves 2 other boys, and at 11 kids tend to stick to the boy/girl divide fairly strongly! So there are, potential 2, or so, other anonymous Sytherin boys. So yes, at this point it could have gone either way.

Now I want to think about the age of some of the other members of this ‘gang’. Lucius we know is a prefect when Sev is sorted, and as he is 6 years older that Sev we can work out what year he is in fairly easily. Added to this we know that not all of the names in the list can be in the same year – obviously! At this point I tend to imagine a pecking order in the gang, based on a combination of age & family connections, both in social terms & to actual DE membership of parents / siblings etc. Both Avery & Mulciber are believed to be children of Tom Riddle’s followers & among the very first Death Eaters – I cannot image Lucius, or the other NEWT level members of the gang, not knowing who they are. Partly because of the names and partly because I see the pure blood clique knowing one another well before they ever go to Hogwarts, after all who else would their parents let them socialise with?

Now I add to this scenario a scruffy unknown boy who no one else has ever met. He finds himself alone on his first night at the school he’s been desperate to attend for years. This is his chance to belong for the first time in is life. I suspect that, as he knows about Slytherin already, he would also know that being half-blood would not be an advantage & being less that that would be a disaster; so he must prove himself. How he chooses to do this we do not know – but from what is mentioned in the books the dark arts probably come into it fairly early on, and from his attitude, both as a child & as a teacher, I suspect he’s read up on also of things such as potions etc.

Now I ask you what would you do if you were Lucius, or the other NEWT level members of that gang? I honestly think I would tell Avery & Mulciber to befriend him ASAP, if he really knew as much about the dark arts as Sirius leads us to believe then I would probably let the other boys know that either they leave him alone or join up.

Now I'm not trying to paint Severus as a compleate victim but I do want to point out that the social group he ends up in is not just his fault. There's an old saying - It takes two to tango.

I admit Severus probably did not think about morality vivekgk, but to be honest how many 11 year olds sop to think about that before making friends? You could argue that Harry did when he rejected Draco’s overture, but did he think about it when he made friends with Ron? I’m not saying Ron is an immoral person but several times his unfairness is commented on in PS, but Harry rarely pulls him up on it. Kids don’t at that age, they think about who’s nice & who’s not – and often that means how they are treated by that person (sadly, I think you could say the same about a lot of adults too)


  #206  
Old May 14th, 2008, 7:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

What a thought provoking post kittling!

Reading your post I think JKR deliberately showed us Lucius patting snape at the welcome feast, just to show us that he was already trying to take Snape under his wing IMO. From there, Snape would have been with four other Slytherin purebloods, feeling wholly inadequate, and trying to fit in.

Seeing his knowledge of spells, potions and his interest in the dark arts, I think the other DE wannabes would have encouraged him to further his interest and would have slowly pulled him to the principles and theories of the Dark Lord Voldemort.

Snape with such a severe lack of everything in his life, would not have hesitated to join any organisation that would give him power, wealth and status in the WW where he had none IMO.


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  #207  
Old May 14th, 2008, 7:55 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Kittling, your post makes me think that there are quite a few comparisons to be made between Snape and Peter Pettigrew, both seemingly unpopular people with popular (possibly powerful) friends. And both ultimatly ready to betray these friends; Snape by being a spy for the order, and Peter by handing the Potters to Voldemort.


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  #208  
Old May 14th, 2008, 8:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I don't know if Snape and Peter were similar or even if their circumstances were similar. Snape wanted to be accepted in Slytherin; but he was also capable of and did have a close, true friendship for many years; with a girl who was in another House and who came from a very different background to his IMO.

Peter was not like that; he was false; Snape was not; even in pursuig a DE career he really thought that becoming one would put him on par with the other pure bloods and elevate him to their status and power. Most of the pure bloods were, after all, DEs and Snape wanted that because he truly believed, mistaken though that belief was, in Voldemort's theories. And he never hid his true self from his friend, and I don't think he would have ever betrayed her at all.

Knowing that she died and he had a part to play in that, he was willing to throw away everything and work for what he believed was her cause IMO.

Peter is not like that IMO. He ingratiated himself with the other 3 Marauders and then went on to betray them, and later hid as a rat, and then once again ran away to Voldemort and served him until he died.

I really don't think there is a similarity between Snape and Peter.


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  #209  
Old May 14th, 2008, 8:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
I'm not sure that Snape was envious of Harry's fame. I think it bugged him that people like James were well thought of and treated like heros just for being arrogant berks. In the same way it annoyed him that Harry was lauded as a hero when he hadn't actually done anything - it was Lily's sacrifice that saved him and broke Voldemort's power.
That is basically what I meant also . I think Snape was envious of those that attained this type of power that he sought, but I respect there may have been another basis for it 'bugging him', I am just uncertain what that might be based on the canon.

Snape himself commented to Lily and Harry that James' arrogance arose from his Quidditch talent (POA, Snape's Grudge and DH, TPT). So imo, Snape did not feel he was treated like a hero just for being arrogant, but rather for his talent and as a result, he was arrogant.

With respect to Harry, Snape was unaware that Lily's sacrifice saved him and broke Voldemort's power. Dumbledore did not explain this to Snape because he wished to keep the whole blood sacrifice - horocrux matter secret from him so that Voldemort would not accidentally uncover the information while Snape was spying. But I agree that Snape felt Harry could not have done anything to defeat Voldemort because he was just a baby, thus did not merit being treated like a hero.

That is where it gets tricky though because Snape was one of the few who knew of the prophecy, so he knew that James and Lily had sacrificed their lives to protect their son because Harry had been chosen by Voldemort. Snape also realized that would have never happened if he hadn't given Voldemort the information in the first place. So there might have been a lot of guilt associated with his attitude as well - and disgruntlement, because in essence, it was Snape who had gotten the ball rolling that culminated in acts which had made Harry a Hero.

Quote:
I think what bothers Snape is people who are given recognition which in his opinion they don't deserve. I also think that Snape never, ever got the recognition he deserved and that galled him.
I agree, however, deep down, I believe Snape believed that both James and Harry were deserving of that status. James was talented, there was proof in the trophy room of that - as was Harry as we saw for ourselves when he played Quidditch. Also, the entire wizard world knew Harry had only been a baby when Voldemort was dusted the first time; they didn't know how it happened, but they understandably found it admirable, and I think Snape was intelligent enough to understand that. But I agree that this was recognition that they got and Snape did not which galled him and imo, he was galled because it made him feel envious of them having what he did not. But I also believe that Snape realized he'd done nothing publicly that would merit hero treatment.

Quote:
I also think that Snape never, ever got the recognition he deserved and that galled him. So bearing that in mind I think the fact that he stayed as a spy and never revealed his true allegiance and never "made a stand" for the cause, was all the more brave and praiseworthy, because doing so would have brought him the recognition he constantly craved
I respect your view, but honestly, I don't think it would have. Those who made a stand for the cause didn't get any particular recognition or hero treatment, so I don't think Snape would have gotten any either (I refer to the many Order members.) The only ones who seemed to get any recognition was Dumbledore and later Harry. Everyone else mainly worked in secret, like Snape, and didn't get recognized by the wizard world for their efforts or even the readers for the most part because no one knew what they were doing.

Arthur nearly died doing "something", Lupin was spying and doing "things" that kept him away, Kingsley was spying and "something" placed him in danger, Molly was doing "something" and Hestia was "busy"...but that is about all we know . So Snape would have had to have done something public to be given the hero treatment, but that is not how the Order worked. Everyone in the Order knew he was helping the good side by spying, so he was recognized for his efforts by some within the Order like everyone else, imo.

Quote:
but he sacrificed this personal ambition in order to help Harry defeat Voldemort. IMO that was a very great sacrifice because I think that Snape valued recognition above his own life (which I think he was willing to sacrifice).
I respect your view, and I think Snape did do this, but not by foregoing "making a stand for the cause", rather by giving up his chance for glory through being a Death Eater for Voldemort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I think that the chapter called "Flight of the Prince" in HBP gives a good idea of what Snape was thinking when it came to Harry being the Chosen One. Snape is trying to tell Harry what he needs to know in order to defeat Voldemort, such as keeping your mind closed and learning silent spells. And I think Snape is extremely frustrated because Harry seems unable or unwilling to learn how to do the things Snape thinks he needs in order to beat Voldemort. And from Snape's point of view, he is right. There is no way that Harry would have been able to fight a battle and win against Voldemort. He just doesn't haven't the skills. Snape has no way of knowing, though, that Harry has those extra things going for him that kept him alive. Snape just thinks that Harry is not at all capable or even worthy of being the Chosen One, in my opinion.
I respect your view; but at that point, Snape thought Harry had to die - be killed by Voldemort, not defeat him.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; May 14th, 2008 at 8:39 pm.
  #210  
Old May 14th, 2008, 9:00 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view; but at that point, Snape thought Harry had to die - be killed by Voldemort, not defeat him.
That's interesting, actually, now that I think about it. I wonder why Snape bothered to tell Harry that he needed to close his mind to Voldemort, etc, if he knew Harry had to die anyway?


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  #211  
Old May 14th, 2008, 9:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
What a thought provoking post kittling!
Thank you!

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Snape with such a severe lack of everything in his life, would not have hesitated to join any organisation that would give him power, wealth and status in the WW where he had none IMO.
that would be imo very hard to resist - especially when he had been hoping Hogwarts would ‘turn everything around’ for him for years.

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Originally Posted by Lucybird View Post
Kittling, your post makes me think that there are quite a few comparisons to be made between Snape and Peter Pettigrew, both seemingly unpopular people with popular (possibly powerful) friends. And both ultimatly ready to betray these friends; Snape by being a spy for the order, and Peter by handing the Potters to Voldemort.
It’s an interesting point and one I think begs investigation. In some ways I think your right Snape did the DE’s ‘for Lily’. On the other hand – he also seemed to stick by some of his friends even after that & after Volderorts first disappearance. He could have landed Malfoy, Avery, Mulciber and many others in Azkaban but he didn’t testify against them. There are many reasons both connected with his role as a spy and with his loyalty to his friends that could have explained these actions – and maybe he used his role as a spy to justify protecting his friends? Not saying he did just adding another maybe to the collection Snape already has!

I suspect we will, in the most part, look for straight forward answers to such questions when perhaps the straight forward answers are less likely to be correct; after all Snape’s just not a straight forward kind of guy is he

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Snape himself commented to Lily and Harry that James' arrogance arose from his Quidditch talent (POA, Snape's Grudge and DH, TPT). So imo, Snape did not feel he was treated like a hero just for being arrogant, but rather for his talent and as a result, he was arrogant.
But that’s something I’ve heard lots of people say about the kids who are good at sports at school. The preferential treatment they get really does bug a lot of kids and I’ve always seen Snapes comments like that
‘Not another sports star letting it all go to his head’
Quote:
With respect to Harry, Snape was unaware that Lily's sacrifice saved him and broke Voldemort's power. Dumbledore did not explain this to Snape because he wished to keep the whole blood sacrifice - horocrux matter secret from him
Yes the horucrux thing defiantly was kept from him and we have indications that he knew little or nothing of this until the end. But the love/blood sacrifice is a different thing, and he may have worked some of that out, also I think we need to bear in mind the fact that Snape would wan the credit going to some one wothy, he certainly never saw James as worthy, and I doubt he felt a baby was worthy of credit; but Lily? Well we know he had a high opinion of her, her magical ability and I think he also, for completely irrational reasons as well as logical ones, would have felt she deserved credit.

Quote:
I agree, however, deep down, I believe Snape believed that both James and Harry were deserving of that status. James was talented, there was proof in the trophy room of that -
Yes but sports is not something he valued particularly was it – he valued intelligence. Now James was not a dunce, he was good at most stuff but that’s not the same thing and I suspect that Snape felt that James ability at quidditch left people over-valuing his other abilities, or perhaps it would be more correct to say getting more recognition than someone equally as gifted in terms of their intelligence.

[/quote]I respect your view, but honestly, I don't think it would have. Those who made a stand for the cause didn't get any particular recognition or hero treatment, so I don't think Snape would have gotten any either (I refer to the many Order members.) The only ones who seemed to get any recognition was Dumbledore and later Harry. Everyone else mainly worked in secret, like Snape, and didn't get recognized by the wizard world for their efforts or even the readers for the most part because no one knew what they were doing. [/quote]

I thought CathyWeasley meant after the first war, and I do think many of the people who actively fought against Voldemort would have received recognition for it, maybe not what some would expect; medals, glory etc. From my experiences growing up on mainland Europe I can say for certain that those who were part of the resistance were often given credit for their actions. In the particular case I’m thinking of the gentleman in question was given more leeway than I understood, at the time, for his manner, he was very grumpy, but now I know that there was a reason for the forbearance others showed him and possibly for his behaviour, he suffered for the stand he took.

Gratitude does not always look the way one might expect, often people find quiet ways of saying thank you – and Cathy is right when she suggests that Snape never publicly received this in his lifetime, he endured something that was quiet the opposite and I’m not surprised it galled him at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
That's interesting, actually, now that I think about it. I wonder why Snape bothered to tell Harry that he needed to close his mind to Voldemort, etc, if he knew Harry had to die anyway?
IMO because he knew that Harry had to die at the right time not jsut get killed by Vlodemort.



Last edited by kittling; May 14th, 2008 at 9:19 pm.
  #212  
Old May 14th, 2008, 9:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
That's interesting, actually, now that I think about it. I wonder why Snape bothered to tell Harry that he needed to close his mind to Voldemort, etc, if he knew Harry had to die anyway?
I second the point that Harry need to choose for himself, and I think Dumbledore made that apparent to Snape.

Also remember that when Snape told Harry to block his mind- He was blocking Harry's spells as quickly as and even before Harry even cast them. This is important. If Snape could read Harry's Levicorpus spell- before Harry even finished thinking the word- think about what someone else with that kind of skill would do to Harry, like Bellatrix - let alone Voldemort.

Harry still had much to do before he chose to die, as well. If he was going to succeed he would need to protect his mind. I think Snape saw this Occlumency as a huge part of his own success and was passing on what he knew to be true in his own experience (like most teachers do) he was also chastising Harry for being sorely unprepared to do battle- which IMO Harry was at that point.


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Last edited by Bscorp; May 14th, 2008 at 9:45 pm.
  #213  
Old May 14th, 2008, 9:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
But that’s something I’ve heard lots of people say about the kids who are good at sports at school. The preferential treatment they get really does bug a lot of kids and I’ve always seen Snapes comments like that
‘Not another sports star letting it all go to his head’
I agree, that is what I meant also. James was treated like a hero by other students for his Quidditch talent - not because he was arrogant. Snape didn't feel he deserved it - and he called it "a little bit of talent" as if James was not truly as talented as he was - but the Cup in the Trophy Room tells us differently, as well as all of the comments of others in HP Universe.

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Yes but sports is not something he valued particularly was it – he valued intelligence. Now James was not a dunce, he was good at most stuff but that’s not the same thing and I suspect that Snape felt that James ability at quidditch left people over-valuing his other abilities, or perhaps it would be more correct to say getting more recognition than someone equally as gifted in terms of their intelligence.
James and Sirius were the best in their year. That means #1 and #2 in all subjects overall - clearly they were very intelligent. Snape knew that and I agree he valued intelligence, but he was not willing to credit James and Sirius with any, imo. James' talent in Quidditch would not make all of his professors give him the highest marks - and Sirius didn't play Quidditch, so imo, no one was over-valuing their academic accomplishments due to Quidditch. We saw Harry receiving mediocre grades despite his Quidditch proficiency.

Also, Hogwarts is distinct from high school where talent of one student is often unobserved by other students. At Hogwarts, students perform magic right in class, so Snape would have seen James and Sirius' proficiency before his eyes in the classes they shared. Gryffindors and Slytherins had DADA, potions and I believe Transfiguration in common.

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I thought CathyWeasley meant after the first war, and I do think many of the people who actively fought against Voldemort would have received recognition for it, maybe not what some would expect; medals, glory etc.
Snape got the same recognition as everyone else, imo. Those within the Order recognized one another and Dumbledore recognized them all. But the rest of society didn't even know what they were doing, so there was no recognition. After the 2nd war, many may have been recognized, but so was Snape.

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IMO because he knew that Harry had to die at the right time not jsut get killed by Vlodemort.
Imo, it was never meant to be advice pertaining to defense against Voldemort because it didn't matter "when" Voldemort met Harry; Harry could never kill him without dying himself, but Voldemort could kill Harry - silent spells, mind closed and all - and Snape knew this. Perhaps he was thinking of other Death Eaters Harry might have to fend off? Nonetheless, because Snape was taunting Harry at the time about his father, it is difficult to ascertain whether his comment was meant to have any merit or merely more taunting because he knew that Harry wasn't going to take any advice from him in that moment, imo.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; May 14th, 2008 at 9:51 pm.
  #214  
Old May 14th, 2008, 10:00 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I think that the chapter called "Flight of the Prince" in HBP gives a good idea of what Snape was thinking when it came to Harry being the Chosen One. Snape is trying to tell Harry what he needs to know in order to defeat Voldemort, such as keeping your mind closed and learning silent spells. And I think Snape is extremely frustrated because Harry seems unable or unwilling to learn how to do the things Snape thinks he needs in order to beat Voldemort. And from Snape's point of view, he is right. There is no way that Harry would have been able to fight a battle and win against Voldemort. He just doesn't haven't the skills. Snape has no way of knowing, though, that Harry has those extra things going for him that kept him alive. Snape just thinks that Harry is not at all capable or even worthy of being the Chosen One, in my opinion.
Wow – somehow I missed this post – so glad I finally saw it, Susan it is fantastic! And Cathy’s
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"Him! The Chosen One! Merlin help us!"
It’s funny cos it’s sooo true!

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I feel very strongly that Harry is not some amazing uber-wizard who could take Voldemort on, man to man. I don't think that Harry is at that level even in DH --- not even close. This is completely my own personal interpretation of Harry, of course, and I will be glad to expand on that in his thread.
But isn’t that extra quality relevant to this thread? From the prophecy I took that quality, the one the dark lord knows not of, to be love. To me that is relivant to this thread because sometimes I feel Snape knows this but can’t bear to face it – it just hurts too much, so mostly he remains unaware of it; with is a good thing really, problematic, but a good thing because if he could face up to it – then there is a chance that Voldermort would find out.

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Oh, yes, he tells Bella and Cissy at Spinner's End how mediocre Harry is, how he'd have him kicked out of Hogwarts if he could. Of course he would tell them that!!! I am not sure how accurately that reflects Snape's true feelings about Harry though. Surely, by the time he has to deliver the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry, he realises that the boy might, after all, be capable and willing of the sacrifice required to defeat Voldemort ...?
Now that bit reminds me of something I was thinking about last night. Not long ago there was a discussion about Snape trying to expel Harry at, what seemed like, every opportunity & when read spinners end it suddenly hit me - he did, but only when he knew it could never work, when Dumbledore would protect him, or to the minister who could do nothing to expel Harry – and why? So he could say exactly this to the death eaters, & Voldermort; so they would hear about it repeatedly. It suddenly seemed like I had been really dense not to have realised before – but then I guess Snape being straight forward (well, for him anyway) threw me off!


  #215  
Old May 14th, 2008, 10:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Thank you!



that would be imo very hard to resist - especially when he had been hoping Hogwarts would ‘turn everything around’ for him for years.



It’s an interesting point and one I think begs investigation. In some ways I think your right Snape did the DE’s ‘for Lily’. On the other hand – he also seemed to stick by some of his friends even after that & after Volderorts first disappearance. He could have landed Malfoy, Avery, Mulciber and many others in Azkaban but he didn’t testify against them. There are many reasons both connected with his role as a spy and with his loyalty to his friends that could have explained these actions – and maybe he used his role as a spy to justify protecting his friends? Not saying he did just adding another maybe to the collection Snape already has!

I suspect we will, in the most part, look for straight forward answers to such questions when perhaps the straight forward answers are less likely to be correct; after all Snape’s just not a straight forward kind of guy is he



But that’s something I’ve heard lots of people say about the kids who are good at sports at school. The preferential treatment they get really does bug a lot of kids and I’ve always seen Snapes comments like that
‘Not another sports star letting it all go to his head’
Yea I agree about that with you. Snape certainly isn't the most straight forward person. Yea same here... when I was still in school, I heard more than my share of similar comments about the kids who were really good at sports and stuff.


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  #216  
Old May 14th, 2008, 10:13 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Now that bit reminds me of something I was thinking about last night. Not long ago there was a discussion about Snape trying to expel Harry at, what seemed like, every opportunity & when read spinners end it suddenly hit me - he did, but only when he knew it could never work, when Dumbledore would protect him, or to the minister who could do nothing to expel Harry – and why? So he could say exactly this to the death eaters, & Voldermort; so they would hear about it repeatedly. It suddenly seemed like I had been really dense not to have realised before – but then I guess Snape being straight forward (well, for him anyway) threw me off!
I respect your view, but Dumbledore, McGonagall and the Minister of Magic didn't speak to the Death Eaters - so how would they hear it repeatedly? Snape would be the only one who could say it to them. When he spoke of expulsion with Dumbledore, McGonagall and the Minister of Magic, there was no one else around to hear.


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  #217  
Old May 14th, 2008, 10:21 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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I respect your view, but Dumbledore, McGonagall and the Minister of Magic didn't speak to the Death Eaters - so how would they hear it repeatedly? Snape would be the only one who could say it to them. When he spoke of expulsion with Dumbledore, McGonagall and the Minister of Magic, there was no one else around to hear.
Well the Minister might not knowing talk to any DE's but we know there were one or two DE he did talk to or were working in the ministry. Also as peopel have often said rumours spread in Hogwarts; there are hundreds of portraits, ghosts, students etc - something was likely to leak out and even if it didn't these were situations where Snape could really try, put his heart & sould into the attempt safely & then Voldermortcould read it from his own mind with the accociated feeling etc; such chances to secure your cover story are not to passed over.


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Old May 14th, 2008, 10:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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But isn’t that extra quality relevant to this thread? From the prophecy I took that quality, the one the dark lord knows not of, to be love. To me that is relivant to this thread because sometimes I feel Snape knows this but can’t bear to face it – it just hurts too much, so mostly he remains unaware of it; with is a good thing really, problematic, but a good thing because if he could face up to it – then there is a chance that Voldemort would find out.
Ooooh. Yeah. Good point. I agree with this.

'One with power that the Dark Lord knows not' ... the power that Harry carries within him is the power of love, Lily's love and sacrifice ... and eventually his own. (The same power that enables him to eventually forgive Snape, in fact!)

I think that Snape, deep deep down, knows that Harry is more than just a James-clone but just can't bear to admit it to himself ... it would hurt too much, as you say.

And there was certainly a heck of a lot that he had to conceal from Voldy.

Whereas he wouldn't have had to disguise any contempt for Harry! Not that those feelings weren't genuine but they were also a gift for the double agent pretending to be Voldy's right hand man.


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  #219  
Old May 14th, 2008, 10:52 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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James and Sirius were the best in their year. That means #1 and #2 in all subjects overall - clearly they were very intelligent. Snape knew that and I agree he valued intelligence, but he was not willing to credit James and Sirius with any, imo. James' talent in Quidditch would not make all of his professors give him the highest marks - and Sirius didn't play Quidditch, so imo, no one was over-valuing their academic accomplishments due to Quidditch. We saw Harry receiving mediocre grades despite his Quidditch proficiency.
Where do we hear that James and Sirius were best in their year? I don't recall reading it.

Is it possible that Snape further dismissed Harry because of his skill at Quidditch? Maybe because he thought if James couldn't kill Voldemort then surely his son, who is so like him, wouldn't be able to either? Or maybe just as a biased view of Quidditch players- surely nobody can be good at sports and clever


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  #220  
Old May 14th, 2008, 11:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Where do we hear that James and Sirius were best in their year? I don't recall reading it.
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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Well the Minister might not knowing talk to any DE's but we know there were one or two DE he did talk to or were working in the ministry. Also as peopel have often said rumours spread in Hogwarts; there are hundreds of portraits, ghosts, students etc - something was likely to leak out and even if it didn't these were situations where Snape could really try, put his heart & sould into the attempt safely & then Voldermortcould read it from his own mind with the accociated feeling etc; such chances to secure your cover story are not to passed over.
I respect your view, but imo, Snape wasn't making these statements in order to deceive anyone. He was genuinely upset - extremely upset when he made them. Additionally, imo, it was in line with his usual behavior toward Harry. Imo, Snape's statements and behavior toward Harry, taken literally and on the face support JKR's assertion that Snape loathed Harry, unfairly, till his death.

In an analogy, other characters hated Harry, likely unfairly and were written that way on the face as well, imo. I don't believe that Crabbe, Goyle, Zabini or others like them were all hiding their true feelings when they made negative statements to him or others exhibiting their feelings about Harry. Nor was their hatred of Harry always a compelling reason to dislike them, imo, for instance, I thought what little we saw of the Zabini character was pretty kick.


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