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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13



View Poll Results: Snape's treatment of Neville...
was justified and reflects positively upon him. 3 1.96%
was justified but reflects negatively upon him. 5 3.27%
sits uncomfortably with me. 19 12.42%
was completely unjustifiable and should have been stopped. 49 32.03%
was completely unjustifiable but horrible teachers are part of life. 19 12.42%
cannot be judged objectively because we only get Harry's perspective. 36 23.53%
put Snape's worst instincts on display. 16 10.46%
does not justify a pony option! 6 3.92%
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  #1481  
Old January 25th, 2010, 1:00 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Snape would not have been able to get past the enchantments on Grimmauld Place by the time of the 7 Potters... assuming, of course, that Moody is a competent Wizard.
Hmmm, well, maybe he could get through the dusty!Dumbledore protection at least...Harry was able fend that spell off by saying "I didn't kill you," and Snape could possibly say that and get away with it, since he didn't exactly kill Dumbledore the way Mad-Eye believes he did.

Of course, that all depends on the nature of the spell...It could work in an entirely different way...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
As for why the memory would be out of order... actually, that makes complete sense to me. This is a memory of one of the most intensely emotional nights of Snape's life. The mis-ordering of the memory might well reflect the disordered nature of Snape's emotions at the time his mind recorded the memory.
Oooh, I like that...


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  #1482  
Old January 25th, 2010, 1:15 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Oooh, I like that...
Thanks. Of course, it doesn't answer why the memory of Lily's death is in order in the Pensieve, but I have an answer for that too...

Lily's death is an old memory - an old, deep wound that he's spent years and years and years of living with. It's not as fresh and raw as the memory of the night he killed Dumbledore - the one person who trusted him - and made himself a hated outcast.


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  #1483  
Old January 25th, 2010, 1:29 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

The idea of 'old' memories being better organized could make a great deal of sense, especially considering Snape's talent for Occlumency. The memories of Lily would have needed to be particularly well organized since that was one of the things Snape most needed to prevent Voldy understanding correctly.

The trip to #12 however must be buried entirely - or at least the finding of the letter from Lily (and Snape's consequent breakdown). voldy must never see that he reacted like he did. I suppose there MIGHT be some use to be made of his GOING to #12 - perhaps a supposed search for info that might be useful to Voldy, since he would not have access later (or more likely since the Order would go remove anything important believing Snape a traitor)

Personally, I have no problem reading that section as happening AFTER Moody put up his protections. I believe dustDumbledore to be a rather useless protection - unless it was supposed to do something else when Dumbledore's killer showed - other just appear. Having DustDumbles appear might even be part of why Snape was in such a fragile mood when he found the Letter.


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Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #1484  
Old January 25th, 2010, 2:29 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Snape would not have been able to get past the enchantments on Grimmauld Place by the time of the 7 Potters... assuming, of course, that Moody is a competent Wizard.
I don't agree. Harry was able to pass the defenses, why would Snape not be? Snape was no more guilty of Albus's murder than Harry was, in my opinion, and thus, in theory, could have passed the same defenses.

I think, going just from the text, it is possible to conclude that Snape visited 12 GP sometime after the 7 Potters and before Harry showed up there.

I also think the "real" reason Rowling's text and interview don't match so well is not that she was thinking to show how upset Snape was, but that she was presenting the DH-timeline events in an order that reflected Harry's experience of them. Harry found the letter after the 7 Potters, hence Rowling, though it is not IMO logical, presented Snape seeing the same letter in the same chronological order.


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  #1485  
Old January 25th, 2010, 2:37 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I don't agree. Harry was able to pass the defenses, why would Snape not be? Snape was no more guilty of Albus's murder than Harry was, in my opinion, and thus, in theory, could have passed the same defenses.

I think, going just from the text, it is possible to conclude that Snape visited 12 GP sometime after the 7 Potters and before Harry showed up there.

I also think the "real" reason Rowling's text and interview don't match so well is not that she was thinking to show how upset Snape was, but that she was presenting the DH-timeline events in an order that reflected Harry's experience of them. Harry found the letter after the 7 Potters, hence Rowling, though it is not IMO logical, presented Snape seeing the same letter in the same chronological order.
I agree with your analysis of the timeline.

When I read the book the first time, I remember thinking that of course Snape could get past the barrier because Snape's Avada wasn't the only factor that was killing Dumbledore anyway - there was the cursed hand and the cave potion. And of course, it wasn't a murder but a planned death for which Snape felt immediate remorse.

ETA: We are also told that the magical protections are "breaking down" and Moody is already dead, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapes_Witch
Therefore I believe this happens after the 7 Potters as stated in the book. Snape thinks he's wounded Harry; could even have killed him if the direction of the curse had been slightly different. Remember we know it's George, but Snape doesn't.
Great point!


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  #1486  
Old January 25th, 2010, 3:58 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Considering our experiences with most of JKR's interview comments, I'm still inclined to believe she meant the chronological order she wrote in the books and then had second thoughts about Snape getting through Moody's curse. For me it just doesn't make sense for that one memory, and only that one, to be out of order.

For that matter I can't think of any reason for Snape to go to Grimmauld Place. He surely didn't have pleasant memories connected with it and he couldn't have gone there specifically to get a souvenir of Lily.


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  #1487  
Old January 25th, 2010, 4:37 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
Considering our experiences with most of JKR's interview comments, I'm still inclined to believe she meant the chronological order she wrote in the books and then had second thoughts about Snape getting through Moody's curse. For me it just doesn't make sense for that one memory, and only that one, to be out of order.

For that matter I can't think of any reason for Snape to go to Grimmauld Place. He surely didn't have pleasant memories connected with it and he couldn't have gone there specifically to get a souvenir of Lily.
I don't have a problem with JKR explaining mechanics - who does what when and who can cast Patronuses and the like. Given the amount of backplotting she did that never worked its way into the series, I'm sure she had worked out where Severus went right after killing Dumbledore. I just don't think she (or any author) is ever to be trusted with interpretation. A good story should speak for itself without additional authorial interference.

But regardless of JKR, I personally don't see any reason why Snape would not go to Grimmauld Place to see if there's something he can find of Lily's before the place becomes dangerous to him. Whether he can pass through the enchantments or not, he'd be a fool to travel to Grimmauld Place after the events of the Astronomy Tower are made known. And I don't think he's a fool. It makes way more sense to me that he'd go there immediately after killing Dumbledore and never return.

At any rate, just my opinion. There's no way to settle this question without canon.


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  #1488  
Old January 25th, 2010, 4:57 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

I initially read it as him going there after the 7 Potters incident and I still kind of prefer it that way for the reasons a few of you have stated. 1. He doesn't know who it is he's just injured. I think he'd be upset no matter who it was that he hurt, but it might be more difficult if it was Harry since he's been in protection mode for so long. 2. If he was able to get through the magical protection then it's further indication that his killing of Dumbledore wasn't murder, and does not apply to the parameters that are set for the spell to work.

Now if he was able to get through the magical protection then it's possible that at this point he went there because it was a safe place for him to go. The Order members weren't using it, the DEs couldn't get it in either, and there were no spies lurking there like there may have been at his home (Wormtail was there last we saw).


  #1489  
Old January 25th, 2010, 5:04 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

I always assumed Snape went to Grimmauld Place immediately after "The Flight of the Prince". He would have known that the Order would think that he had turned against them and that they would put up protections. He had been in the house many times and may have hoped for a chance to see if Sirius had any mementos of Lily. IMO


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  #1490  
Old January 25th, 2010, 5:20 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
But regardless of JKR, I personally don't see any reason why Snape would not go to Grimmauld Place to see if there's something he can find of Lily's before the place becomes dangerous to him. Whether he can pass through the enchantments or not, he'd be a fool to travel to Grimmauld Place after the events of the Astronomy Tower are made known. And I don't think he's a fool. It makes way more sense to me that he'd go there immediately after killing Dumbledore and never return.

At any rate, just my opinion. There's no way to settle this question without canon.
I'm just trying to work this out in my own mind and not meaning to be argumentative! Why would he expect to find anything of Lily's there? It appears JKR needed him to be there whether it makes sense or not! (Hmmm, this is beginning to sound like something that belongs on the 'things that were too easy' thread! )


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  #1491  
Old January 25th, 2010, 5:30 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
I'm just trying to work this out in my own mind and not meaning to be argumentative! Why would he expect to find anything of Lily's there? It appears JKR needed him to be there whether it makes sense or not! (Hmmm, this is beginning to sound like something that belongs on the 'things that were too easy' thread! )
I'm not trying to be argumentative either. Sorry if it came out that way.

Let's imagine for a second that it actually is the night that Snape kills Dumbledore. He's about to go underground until the MoM falls. And really, there is only one place where he might find something of Lily's.

He doesn't have to expect to find something of Lily's in order to think that he might. Sirius was the godfather to Lily's son. It's possible - however much of a long shot - that there's something in Grimmauld Place relating to Lily. And it's pretty clear from the state of the house on the trio's arrival that when Severus did come, he pretty much tore up the place looking for something. What else would he be ransacking the place to find? (and why would Moody straighten up after him? )

Anyway, that's my take.


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  #1492  
Old January 25th, 2010, 5:37 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I always assumed Snape went to Grimmauld Place immediately after "The Flight of the Prince". He would have known that the Order would think that he had turned against them and that they would put up protections. He had been in the house many times and may have hoped for a chance to see if Sirius had any mementos of Lily. IMO
I dunno. I don't think I ever had the impression that he went looking for something to remind him of Lily. I think he was going somewhere where he did not have to wear a mask so to speak and happened to come across the letter amongst the mess, much like Harry did. I think it's more plausible that he found the letter, either after Dung may have made the place a mess (I can't remember if it's possible that he started selling stuff off at this point), or after Snape himself was upset enough to toss things around and find the letter by accident. It makes more sense to me that it was found unintentionally, and took him by surprise at a time when he was already possibly hyper-emotional and it caused a big break down. This also works if he went there after DD's death, IMHO.


  #1493  
Old January 25th, 2010, 5:59 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by boushh View Post
I dunno. I don't think I ever had the impression that he went looking for something to remind him of Lily. I think he was going somewhere where he did not have to wear a mask so to speak and happened to come across the letter amongst the mess, much like Harry did. I think it's more plausible that he found the letter, either after Dung may have made the place a mess (I can't remember if it's possible that he started selling stuff off at this point), or after Snape himself was upset enough to toss things around and find the letter by accident. It makes more sense to me that it was found unintentionally, and took him by surprise at a time when he was already possibly hyper-emotional and it caused a big break down. This also works if he went there after DD's death, IMHO.
Yeah, I never thought he went there looking for something intentional either.

Dung is caught with Sirius's stuff in HBP, the chapter called "Silver and Opals." Harry tries to throttle Dung right before Katie Bell is possessed by the evil necklace. Later in DADA class, Snape calls Dung a "little sneak thief" or something like that.


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  #1494  
Old January 25th, 2010, 6:22 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by boushh View Post
I dunno. I don't think I ever had the impression that he went looking for something to remind him of Lily. I think he was going somewhere where he did not have to wear a mask so to speak and happened to come across the letter amongst the mess, much like Harry did. I think it's more plausible that he found the letter, either after Dung may have made the place a mess (I can't remember if it's possible that he started selling stuff off at this point), or after Snape himself was upset enough to toss things around and find the letter by accident. It makes more sense to me that it was found unintentionally, and took him by surprise at a time when he was already possibly hyper-emotional and it caused a big break down. This also works if he went there after DD's death, IMHO.


I think he went to the only place he could think of, where he could mourn Dumbledore in private and found the letter and the photo.

----------
In a way I think it's sad that all Snape had at 36 years was this girl who left him a lifetime ago, as his anchor. I think that's because he could not afford to get close to anyone until the war was over. Sadly he did live to see Voldemort's defeat and to start his life afresh.


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  #1495  
Old January 25th, 2010, 9:05 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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