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Severus Snape's Death v2.



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  #21  
Old December 21st, 2007, 4:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

One would think DD sort of was punishing him for what he did to lily,and I think DD wouldnt act that way,but then why did all his plans lead to Sanpes death,i dont think DD ever considered Snape had a chance of surviving...


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  #22  
Old December 21st, 2007, 4:13 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

I would answer these questions with great pleasure, if I believe in Snape's death. I gave some proofs in previous version of this thread and I may add something to them.

Snape and Dumbledore definitely had to guess that Voldemort would use Nagini as a weapon against Snape and he wouldn't use the Elder Wand against his probable master. Therefore he had to prepare antidote against Nagini's bite. I can't even assume that Snape didn't know how to prepare it. He used to be a teacher of potions, also he was a spy, and he naturally had to know how to prepare it, otherwise he just couldn't take these places. Nagini's bite wasn't usual, but on the other hand, even a healer from St. Mungo's hospital managed to prepare it, 2,5 years ago. So it hardly was a complicated problem for Snape.
Then, interesting thing some people noticed. As we know, bezoar is a universal antidote, and in principle, it might be an antidote for the Draught of Living Death. And it may be a reason of Snape was like a dying man - he took the Draught of living death and performed all the features of death and the he took a bezoar.
During the scene in the hut Snape had been looking at Nagini for a long time. He could be amazed that Dumbledore had predicted it so exactly, but he wasn't so dumb to stare at her so long and evidently. It seems like he made hints to Voldemort about using Nagini as weapon of murdering.
I think Snape specially was reducing all to be defeated by Nagini. And he provided for every eventuality with Dumbledore.


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  #23  
Old December 21st, 2007, 8:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by Jetty View Post
I would answer these questions with great pleasure, if I believe in Snape's death. I gave some proofs in previous version of this thread and I may add something to them.

Snape and Dumbledore definitely had to guess that Voldemort would use Nagini as a weapon against Snape and he wouldn't use the Elder Wand against his probable master. Therefore he had to prepare antidote against Nagini's bite. I can't even assume that Snape didn't know how to prepare it. He used to be a teacher of potions, also he was a spy, and he naturally had to know how to prepare it, otherwise he just couldn't take these places. Nagini's bite wasn't usual, but on the other hand, even a healer from St. Mungo's hospital managed to prepare it, 2,5 years ago. So it hardly was a complicated problem for Snape.
Then, interesting thing some people noticed. As we know, bezoar is a universal antidote, and in principle, it might be an antidote for the Draught of Living Death. And it may be a reason of Snape was like a dying man - he took the Draught of living death and performed all the features of death and the he took a bezoar.
During the scene in the hut Snape had been looking at Nagini for a long time. He could be amazed that Dumbledore had predicted it so exactly, but he wasn't so dumb to stare at her so long and evidently. It seems like he made hints to Voldemort about using Nagini as weapon of murdering.
I think Snape specially was reducing all to be defeated by Nagini. And he provided for every eventuality with Dumbledore.
So you think Snape lived? If so, where did he go? Harry seemed to believe he was dead 19 years later. Do you believe he went underground never to be seen again? If so, isn't that just the same as death for all practical purposes?


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  #24  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 2:08 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

oh no ...Snape is dead...even his portrait appeared in the office ,thanks to Harry ,so dont go harvesting any false hope honey!!!
I know after all he went through one could hope he wasnt dead,but he is,just as Sirius and Dumbledore,all dead...


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  #25  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 2:52 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

It's upsetting that Snape's last moments were the bitter taste of betrayal. He probably felt used by the puppet master. He just didn't see it coming. I don't recall Dumbledore giving the poor man any hints about the elder wand going under his suposed posession. He probably only realised the truth seconds before he was bitten. Hence the pathetic ending for him. He might have gone out a little more dramatically had he not suffered this blow. It's a bit like Lily&James in some aspects- betrayed by one least expected to do so. I may be mistaken though. It's been a while since i've read over that part.

Just because it's a magically world doesn't mean miracles are preformed. Wizards have been killed by less, and it doesn't matter how talented they are. Snape was basically drowning in his own blood. Nagini broke him out of repair. Even healers can't save everyone. If they could wizards wouldn't die. Snape couldn't have possibly gone through the whole 'beozar' theory because it's already described that his soul left his body and there's no point arguing on that. JK stated his death and she created the character. It would be pointless for Snape to linger on and he lingered on long enough, 7 books after all when Sirius had far less. [staff edit]

Not meaning any offence to any Snape fans.


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  #26  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 3:02 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by ecardina View Post
It's upsetting that Snape's last moments were the bitter taste of betrayal. He probably felt used by the puppet master. He just didn't see it coming. I don't recall Dumbledore giving the poor man any hints about the elder wand going under his suposed posession. He probably only realised the truth seconds before he was bitten. Hence the pathetic ending for him. He might have gone out a little more dramatically had he not suffered this blow. It's a bit like Lily&James in some aspects- betrayed by one least expected to do so. I may be mistaken though. It's been a while since i've read over that part.
.
Betrayal...a strong word,but i do think it was,if at least he had known...I do think he would have spared his life anyway,but to think DD planned it all and didnt share this with him,its like his I trust SEverus Snape wasnt at all sincere...

I wont judge DD,after all ,he did think things over and made the best he could,still if someone is to blame about Snape ´s death its DD himself...not Voldy,Dumbledore


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  #27  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 5:09 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

1. When you read Snape's death scene, how did you react?
I was in complete shock. I was like, "You have got to be kidding me." I re read the page and I was still shocked.

2. Could Snape have done more to prevent his own death, at least in this manner or was it inevitable?
I don't think he would be able to do anything to prevent it. It happened so quickly that I don't think he really was prepared for it.

3. Do you consider Snape's death fitting with the tragic life he had brought upon himself?
In truth, he honestly didn't get a chance to prove himself. To be honest, I was expecting him to fight in the final battle along side of the teachers, students, etc. I wasent expecting him to die at the hands of Voldemort.

4. Was it the sort of death you thought you'd ever see in the Harry Potter novels, bearing in mind it was more brutal and bloody than death at the hands of the Killing Curse?
It was way different from any of the deaths that we have seen in the series. Everyone that has died before him died at the hands of a spell. Snape died by getting bitten by a snake. Very different.

5. Up until his death what had your thoughts been on whether Snape would live or die and what were your reasons for believing what you did?
While reading I really didn't think of Snape because he wasent important to the story while the Trio were looking for the Horcruxes.

6. When Snape saw Harry do you believe he activated the memories to come out of him or do you believe they would have come out anyway regardless of whether anyone showed up?
He wanted Harry to see the memories so he would know that Snape really cared for Harry and his mother. And that he really didn't hate him.

8. After you read the next chapter 'The Prince's Tale', did your feelings change at all regarding his death and the character?
I wasent a big fan of Snape. I thought he was unfair and cruel to Harry. Then after reading the Prince's Tale my feelings toward Snape immediatly changed. It showed a different side to Snape. A caring side. Thats what counts.

9. Do you believe Snape's death was the right way for Jo to bring closure to his self-induced tortured life?
Yes. He can finally rest in peace. R.I.P. Severus Snape.


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  #28  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 5:34 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montse View Post
Betrayal...a strong word,but i do think it was,if at least he had known...I do think he would have spared his life anyway,but to think DD planned it all and didnt share this with him,its like his I trust SEverus Snape wasnt at all sincere...

I wont judge DD,after all ,he did think things over and made the best he could,still if someone is to blame about Snape ´s death its DD himself...not Voldy,Dumbledore
I respect your view, but I think Dumbledore did trust Snape. Dumbledore didn't tell Snape about the wand or horcruxes because he was so close to Voldemort and Voldemort was a great legilimens. The possibility of Snape spilling the secrets accidentally was one Dumbledore did not wish to take. But I agree that Snape felt the keen edge of betrayal in the moments before his death. I think it was a lesson to him because he himself had claimed that one deserved to face the consequences when one arrogantly placed their trust in another and their life could be in the balance (POA). I get the feeling that Snape understood that Dumbledore had done it knowing how Snape felt and at his death, Snape finally understood that he had been wrong about that. Snape hadn't deserved to face the consequences of Dumbledore's mechanisms.


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  #29  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 10:30 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by Montse View Post
oh no ...Snape is dead...even his portrait appeared in the office ,thanks to Harry ,so dont go harvesting any false hope honey!!!
I know after all he went through one could hope he wasnt dead,but he is,just as Sirius and Dumbledore,all dead...
The fact that his portrait appeared in headmaster's office strikes me deeply. In the beginning Jo said that the portrait hadn't appeared, because Snape had abandonned his post. But then, if I understood correctly, she said that the portrait nevertheless had appeared with help of Harry, claiming Snape hadn't left his post. And how should it be realized? Portraits appear or not appear in the office according to testimonial evidence?! I've always assumed they had to appear according to the facts. If McGonnagall, Slughorn and others thought, Snape had gone away forever, it didn't mean that their assumption would influence on presence of the portrait in the office. And if Harry realized the truth, it didn't mean anything for magic as well. If Snape had abandonned and died, the portrait would have to appear in the office despite the fact the others would think of it.


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  #30  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 2:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view, but I think Dumbledore did trust Snape. Dumbledore didn't tell Snape about the wand or horcruxes because he was so close to Voldemort and Voldemort was a great legilimens. The possibility of Snape spilling the secrets accidentally was one Dumbledore did not wish to take. But I agree that Snape felt the keen edge of betrayal in the moments before his death. I think it was a lesson to him because he himself had claimed that one deserved to face the consequences when one arrogantly placed their trust in another and their life could be in the balance (POA). I get the feeling that Snape understood that Dumbledore had done it knowing how Snape felt and at his death, Snape finally understood that he had been wrong about that. Snape hadn't deserved to face the consequences of Dumbledore's mechanisms.
I see your point ,but then he had served the dark Lord under flase pretending of loyalty,showing all the time he indeed was a Terriffic oclumens,he had proved he could hide information as well as pass only the necesary one,I think DD was aware and could have informed him about what he thought would happen,and why those events might take place.

I do see why DD might have not been keen on sharing this,but then again,his trust wasnt so much as he so repreatedly said,he didnt trust his great occlumens abilities!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetty View Post
If Snape had abandonned and died, the portrait would have to appear in the office despite the fact the others would think of it.

I think the portraits appear after the death of a headmaster who was headmasteer until the moments of his death,Snape abandoned his post only moments before his death,so when he was bitten he wasnt headmaster any more,I suppose Harry,told things as they were,and did whatever you have to do ,not to convince the others,but the casttle itself
of Snape´s cause...how wever it is you do that,for I dint think its the others that decided but somehow the office of the headmaster...


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  #31  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 3:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

Here is what JK Rowling said about the portrait in her Bloomsbury chat, July 30, 2007:
JK RowlingLaura Trego: Was the absence of Snape's portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate

J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles. However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape's portrait would appear there in due course.
I hope that helps.


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Old December 22nd, 2007, 3:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

Thankyou susan bones!!


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  #33  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 3:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Here is what JK Rowling said about the portrait in her Bloomsbury chat, July 30, 2007:
JK RowlingLaura Trego: Was the absence of Snape's portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate

J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles. However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape's portrait would appear there in due course.
I hope that helps.
This is pretty confusing isn't it? I had always thought that Hogwarts would automatically put up the portrait of the last Headmaster and Umbridge did not get a portrait, because she could not even access the Headmaster's office and so Hogwarts did not agree that Umbridge had even been headmistress of Hogwarts.

But it looks like someone can talk for you. With whom and how would that portrait have come up?

Quote:
posted by Monste
I do see why DD might have not been keen on sharing this,but then again,his trust wasnt so much as he so repreatedly said,he didnt trust his great occlumens abilities!!
I agree. Dumbledore for saying he implicitly trusted Snape time and agin did not tell him about the horcruxes and about the wand. I realy think that Snape was allowed to die by Dumbledore.


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  #34  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 4:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montse View Post
I do see why DD might have not been keen on sharing this,but then again,his trust wasnt so much as he so repreatedly said,he didnt trust his great occlumens abilities!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post

I agree. Dumbledore for saying he implicitly trusted Snape time and agin did not tell him about the horcruxes and about the wand. I realy think that Snape was allowed to die by Dumbledore.
I agree with both of you. Dd in the end trusted himself more than he trusted anyone (not that I mean its necessarily a bad thing). He didn't even trust Harry fully and he didn't trusted Snape fully. He doomed Snape to death by asking him to kill him, he could at least have warned him.


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  #35  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 4:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
This is pretty confusing isn't it? I had always thought that Hogwarts would automatically put up the portrait of the last Headmaster and Umbridge did not get a portrait, because she could not even access the Headmaster's office and so Hogwarts did not agree that Umbridge had even been headmistress of Hogwarts.

But it looks like someone can talk for you. With whom and how would that portrait have come up?
I think umbridge would have need to have died,pitty she didnt...and I agree Hogwarts must not have recognized her as headmistress either..

about Snape,i can see Harry talikng to the room,telling the room the story...and puff...the portrait of Snape appears,and phinealls beams in his own portrait...mentioning he was a Slytherin...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I agree. Dumbledore for saying he implicitly trusted Snape time and agin did not tell him about the horcruxes and about the wand. I realy think that Snape was allowed to die by Dumbledore.
I agree.Why wouldnt he have wanted to live..and see LIly´s son defeat the dark lord,and feel happy for her...it could have been avoided...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisha View Post
could at least have warned him
at least,if Snape thought too his death was necesary ,it would have been his choice ,not this sense of betrayal


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  #36  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 4:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

Quote:
posted by Monste
at least,if Snape thought too his death was necesary ,it would have been his choice ,not this sense of betrayal
I agree. After going through all the 7 books saying, 'it is your choices and not your abilities that make you what you are', Dumbledore makes the choice for Snape.

Like you said, even if Snape had needed to die, it should have been his choice and not made his choice unknowingly by someone else.


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  #37  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 7:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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I agree. After going through all the 7 books saying, 'it is your choices and not your abilities that make you what you are', Dumbledore makes the choice for Snape.

Like you said, even if Snape had needed to die, i
t should have been his choice and not made his choice unknowingly by someone else.
This shows us how brave he was,because he found out at the very last moment and decided(and here he did have a tiny winny,binny choice)to follow DD plan,if you see it that he could have howled like petigrew would have done,saying,no dark lord ,dont ,it wasnt me who disarmed DD,it was the malfoy boy,you need t kill him instead of me...But he kept his mouth shut and died,trying to follow the well lead plan DD has set...eventhough ,tehre was this little twitch,it had all worked for the best ,and he knew it,so he kept shut and did chose to die...BUT it was set up by DD...im not delievering form guilt,im just saying Snape was brave enough tofollow the destiny DD has planned for him.

After all he was all the time a puppet in the hands of the puppeter(DD)


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  #38  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 8:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
This is pretty confusing isn't it? I had always thought that Hogwarts would automatically put up the portrait of the last Headmaster and Umbridge did not get a portrait, because she could not even access the Headmaster's office and so Hogwarts did not agree that Umbridge had even been headmistress of Hogwarts.
You read my mind, I also think Hogwarts automatically puts up it, not according to someone's opinion. And if the headmaster, who hasn't abandonned his post, dies, the portrait automatically appears on the wall of the office. I think that such magical laws spread themselves despite of people's guesses and opinions. And I suppose, Umbridge didn't get a portrait, because she hadn't died during her directorship in Hogwarts. I think a headmaster gets the portrait only in case of his death being current headmaster. Or probably it may appear after the death of somebody, who has been the headmaster of Hogwarts somewhere. In that case, we will be able to see Umbridge's portrait in Hogwarts And if it is so, Snape's portrait will also appear after his REAL death.


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  #39  
Old December 22nd, 2007, 10:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

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Originally Posted by Montse View Post
This shows us how brave he was,because he found out at the very last moment and decided(and here he did have a tiny winny,binny choice)to follow DD plan,if you see it that he could have howled like petigrew would have done,saying,no dark lord ,dont ,it wasnt me who disarmed DD,it was the malfoy boy,you need t kill him instead of me...But he kept his mouth shut and died,trying to follow the well lead plan DD has set...eventhough ,tehre was this little twitch,it had all worked for the best ,and he knew it,so he kept shut and did chose to die...BUT it was set up by DD...im not delievering form guilt,im just saying Snape was brave enough tofollow the destiny DD has planned for him.

After all he was all the time a puppet in the hands of the puppeter(DD)
This is how I look atit too. Snape also could have told Voldemort that Dumbledore and he planned it - but that he'd gone along with the plan (and even made a Vow to ensure he'd do it) to ensure Voldemort was pleased. May have worked, but instead he remained silent and was killed. So in a way Harry coming along was a reward for that decision because Snape did want to give him the memories. Plus he got to see the two great forces in his life, in rememberance, James and Lily, offering a last chance for him to find some peace with those forces.


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Old December 23rd, 2007, 4:43 am
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Re: Severus Snape's Death v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
This is how I look atit too. Snape also could have told Voldemort that Dumbledore and he planned it - but that he'd gone along with the plan (and even made a Vow to ensure he'd do it) to ensure Voldemort was pleased. May have worked, but instead he remained silent and was killed. So in a way Harry coming along was a reward for that decision because Snape did want to give him the memories. Plus he got to see the two great forces in his life, in rememberance, James and Lily, offering a last chance for him to find some peace with those forces.
He could have said this to Voldemort if this have occurred to him at the point which clearly didn't and even if he had got a chance to think he wouldn't have doomed malfoy for it, I agree, but it doesn't really mean he deliberately died or anything, he was caught offgurad most of all. I like it how you say Harry coming along was a reward, and I think it was a reward for all his efforts after finally turning to light side.


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