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How did Snape find Harry & Hermione in the Forest of Dean?



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  #21  
Old August 4th, 2007, 12:24 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

I think an important thing to remember is that dark wizards cannot produce patronuses, because it requires an element of pure love. Also, the only people who were really working extensively with patronuses were people who were active in the Order. Everyone else just used them to keep them warm from Dementors and the like. Thus, it is not really a concern that patronuses can find people, because it's only people who have been training their patronuses and focusing their magic for years and years who can do such.

However, it's also possible it's just a Snape thing-we see in Half Blood Prince that Snape is quite adept at altering spells and the like. He may well have altered the Patronus charm to get it to do that for him.


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  #22  
Old August 4th, 2007, 12:38 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

Snape found them with the help of the portrait of Phineas Nigellus, who overheard Hermione saying where they were...


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  #23  
Old August 4th, 2007, 4:46 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by d4rk_magician View Post
Snape found them with the help of the portrait of Phineas Nigellus, who overheard Hermione saying where they were...
Right, but as Col Fubster noted...the Forest of Dean is 110 square kilometers. That's a bit too big of an area to randomly search, so Snape had to have more of a plan / help than just knowing which forest they were in. He didn't have time to leave the school long enough to search the entire forest, it would be noticed.


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  #24  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:06 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by HPGramp View Post
The fact that a patronas can find someone and deliver a message is one thing, but to find someone was is magically shielded, and then lead them without making contact to a predetermined location is stretching things - a lot. JKR needed it to happen and it did, powerful if impractical magic.
Why is it impractical? The protection on their tent would have been designed to keep out offensive and dangerous spells and to stop other people from entering, why would anyone think to alter the protections and charms to ensure a projection of hope and love couldn't enter?

Patronuses aren't dangerous or evil... they are just a projection, therefore I think it would be just as possible for a patronus to find a who is surrounded by protection as if they weren't. Granted then it would be easy for DE's to cast one, send it to HP and follow it, but we don't know if any other DEs can cast patronuses or indeed know how to send them after people.


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  #25  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:16 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

I believe, though I don't have the quote on me, that JKR specifically stated that Snape is the only Death Eater that can cast a patronus.


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  #26  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:36 pm
Leon_Lionheart  Male.gif Leon_Lionheart is offline
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

It wouldn't be too difficult for Snape, who is so highly trusted by Lord Voldemort, to figure out some way to buy a fairly extended amount of search time. Say two days. Then I'd have to agree that he could scan the area from the air--with a Disillusionment Charm placed upon himself for good measure--and given his skill level, I'm sure he could detect traces of magical concealment and defense just like Dumbledore, so it wouldn't be terribly difficult to find them, given a couple of days.

I'm sure Snape was there in person, at least when the sword was found, because Ron says he thought he saw someone move over by the trees, but that he was too rushed to check it out. Once Snape knew the sword was theirs, he probably just Disapparated back into or around Hogsmeade, his business finished.


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  #27  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:48 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

Ok, it's already been said about Phineus Nigelus' portrait telling Snape what forest Harry and Hermione were in... but it doesn't seem to have been mentioned that Ron was tracking Harry at the time. Snape probably found Ron easily and followed him as far as he could, then hid the sword and sent the Patronus in the direction the Deluminator was telling Ron to go.

And as was also said before here, I believe a Patronus can find a person regardless of protective spells. A Patronus IS a protective spell, itself.

JKR said Snape was the only DE to be able to cast one, because the DEs don't feel the need to protect themselves from their Dementor allies. That and it takes a very positive emotion to summon a Patronus, something that brings happiness and joy to the heart of the caster... most DEs- and Voldemort especially- don't even know what that sort of happiness feels like, their only joy is in the pain of others and that's just not good enough.


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  #28  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:50 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

Phineas Nigellus accidently heard Hermione give away their whereabouts. He reports to Snape. Snape has always been really smart and as we saw in the Movie for POA, a Patonus can be seen quite far. Plus he'd know they wouldn't be able to really "camp out" and have a tent.
Also, since the Patronus was a Silver Doe--Lily's Patronus, wouldn't it know Harry or feel that "Mother and Child connection". Okay, I realize I'm reading way too much into this. That may sound really out there, but if I remember correctly, the Doe let Harry almost close enough to touch. Plus in POA, he thought James had come to save them. Harry's Patronus is a Stag, like James' was. So IMHO, it only makes sense that the Silver Doe would recognize Harry/the need to assist Harry through Snape in some manner.


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  #29  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:55 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

Snape is very powerful in both the Dark Arts and high level magic. However, I'm sure that he cast his Patronus, and asked it to lead him to Harry. He must have also asked it to lead Harry away from the tent, with the protective spells, therefore letting Snape make sure he could see that Harry could get the sword.


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  #30  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:56 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

I think this was one of the more interesting and well thought out parts of the book. That being said, I think that Snape is a very powerful wizard who could send his patronus through a large forest and find exactly who it's looking for. Or maybe that's the powerful charm in patronus communication, they have the power to find who it's meant for, no matter where they are.


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  #31  
Old August 4th, 2007, 6:01 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

Dumbledore says that "magic always leaves traces." Therefore, I am sure that Snape, being the incredibly talented wizard that he was, was able to detect the magic around Harry and Hermione. Even if this magic was meant to protect them, Snape could probably sense that a Protego or Muffliato charm had been cast around some place. Dumbledore pretty much gives us the answer to this:
HBP, Horcruxes, Ch. 23, Page 504, American, HBHe hid it... never guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or that I might be keeping an eye open for traces of magical concealment.

Therefore, based on Dumbledore's statement, protective/concealment charms are detectable by advanced wizards. Thus, I am sure that Snape did the same: he was searching for traces of magical concealment, and he found them.


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  #32  
Old August 4th, 2007, 6:25 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by MoonyX View Post
Or maybe that's the powerful charm in patronus communication, they have the power to find who it's meant for, no matter where they are.
In HBP, Tonks' Patronus went to Snape, even though she said that it was meant to find someone else at the castle (I can't remember exactly who)... so that may not be quite accurate.


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  #33  
Old August 4th, 2007, 6:34 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by VMorticia View Post
In HBP, Tonks' Patronus went to Snape, even though she said that it was meant to find someone else at the castle (I can't remember exactly who)... so that may not be quite accurate.
But Tonks isn't as powerful as Snape.


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  #34  
Old August 4th, 2007, 7:03 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Dumbledore says that "magic always leaves traces." Therefore, I am sure that Snape, being the incredibly talented wizard that he was, was able to detect the magic around Harry and Hermione. Even if this magic was meant to protect them, Snape could probably sense that a Protego or Muffliato charm had been cast around some place. Dumbledore pretty much gives us the answer to this:
HBP, Horcruxes, Ch. 23, Page 504, American, HBHe hid it... never guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or that I might be keeping an eye open for traces of magical concealment.

Therefore, based on Dumbledore's statement, protective/concealment charms are detectable by advanced wizards. Thus, I am sure that Snape did the same: he was searching for traces of magical concealment, and he found them.

This seems reasonable - perhaps if Snape could fly over the Forest of Dean, he could pick up the protective spells (or the absense of the "usual" reading - one "old" trick is finding something by finding the lack of background noise) reasonably fast and then zero in on where they must be. He then lands, hides the sword, casts the patronus in the right general direction, then goes back to Hogwarts.

The Carrows may be dim, but I would expect that between them and Voldy they would notice if there were more than an hour or two gap between when Snape left the school and when Snape saw Voldy. I don't think he could have gotten himself a day or two.


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  #35  
Old August 4th, 2007, 7:06 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

I think he might have set up some kind of spell in several places round the country that would detect the trio's presence and alert him so he could place the sword nearby and send the doe to lead them to it.


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  #36  
Old August 4th, 2007, 7:10 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by flowerchild View Post
I think he might have set up some kind of spell in several places round the country that would detect the trio's presence and alert him so he could place the sword nearby and send the doe to lead them to it.
We already know from "The Prince's Tale" that he was alerted to their general location--the Forest of Dean--by Phineas Nigellus, not some scattering of enchantments. So this is wrong.

Besides, if it were that simple, Voldemort would have found them long before Snape did.


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  #37  
Old August 5th, 2007, 7:42 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by enmapotter View Post
Ok this was explained in the book guys... remember that hermione had Phinea's portrait inside her magic purse? Phineas heard her mentioning the name of the forest and ran to his other portrait (in Hogwarts) to tell snape about it.
Phineas can't see anything, but he can hear. After he found out it was the Forest of Dean, then the Patronus could just wander around a bit there to find them.


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  #38  
Old August 16th, 2007, 6:58 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by enmapotter View Post
Ok this was explained in the book guys... remember that hermione had Phinea's portrait inside her magic purse? Phineas heard her mentioning the name of the forest and ran to his other portrait (in Hogwarts) to tell snape about it.
I was wondering about this...doesn't Harry know from having visited the Headmaster's office for DD that Phineas has another portrait there, in addition to the Grimmauld Place/Hermione's crazy purse one? So wasn't it foolish to take one portrait and risk having Phineas hear of their whereabouts and report back to the new headmaster, Snape? It happened, and although the outcome of that situation was good, the trio didn't know Snape was on their side. To them, Snape was Voldemort's right-hand man, and with their location reported, they're a bunch of fugitives who're as good as dead!

I hope I make sense here. Perhaps I'm overlooking some completely obvious fact that justifies Hermione having one of the portraits, but I'm just thinking it was foolish because they didn't yet realize Snape was good.


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  #39  
Old August 16th, 2007, 7:11 pm
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

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Originally Posted by omrilse View Post
yup, enmapotter is right, Phineas sneaked into his other portrait (which was in hermiones purse), and overheard her talking to harry. During their conversation she says aloud that they are in that particular forest, and then snape just sends his doe to look for them.
o yeah and that's when Phineas says mudblood and snape says don't call her that...
yeah i remember now..


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  #40  
Old August 17th, 2007, 3:37 am
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Re: How did Snape find H&H in the Forest of Dean?

I agree with everyone that said Phineas told Snape where they were hiding.

I think that Snape went to the Forest of Dean himself to hide the sword in the pool and directed his Patronus (the doe) to lead Harry to the sword. Snape hung out near the pool to make sure Harry did find the sword. I believe Snape did this because DD probably told Snape that it was crucial that Harry have this sword. And when Ron showed up to help Harry he thought he saw something/someone in the bushes (no doubt Snape).


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