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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4



 
 
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  #1081  
Old June 1st, 2011, 10:54 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Guys, please remember to stay on the topic of Snape and to avoid too much non-textual speculation. I am deleting posts which make no reference whatsoever to Snape or which only vaguely mention Snape in passing. If you want to discuss characters' patronuses at length, this may be a better thread for it.

The Snape thread is not the place for discussing the way that patronuses work/what they represent in general.



Last edited by Melaszka; June 1st, 2011 at 11:15 am.
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  #1082  
Old June 1st, 2011, 2:43 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

I've been thinking about this and I thought to see what others think: Why do you think Snape chose to store that certain scene Harry saw in the pensieve (in SWM); is it because of how badly the Marauders treated him that day (worse than any other time perhaps), or is it beceause it was the memory of his fight with Lily? Also why do you think he chose to remove the memory of fighting with Lily and hide it from Harry, rather than a memory of being friends with her, like when he first met her, for instance, or any other memory Harry saw later?


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  #1083  
Old June 1st, 2011, 4:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Maybe it was a case of "Why am I helping Dumbledore", he wanted to make sure he couldn't forget the most important things about Lily and how it was basically his own fault things ended the way they did between them. Self-punishment.


  #1084  
Old June 1st, 2011, 5:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
I've been thinking about this and I thought to see what others think: Why do you think Snape chose to store that certain scene Harry saw in the pensieve (in SWM); is it because of how badly the Marauders treated him that day (worse than any other time perhaps), or is it beceause it was the memory of his fight with Lily? Also why do you think he chose to remove the memory of fighting with Lily and hide it from Harry, rather than a memory of being friends with her, like when he first met her, for instance, or any other memory Harry saw later?
I think we don't know for certain if Snape put other memories in the Pensieve. Knowing that Harry was breaking into his thoughts as a defence against Legilimency, he may have hidden others. That was the only one Harry saw at that time, but there may have been others. Obviously, he couldn't hide years worth of memories in a Penseive, but I think it's likely he hid more than that one memory.


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  #1085  
Old June 1st, 2011, 5:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think we don't know for certain if Snape put other memories in the Pensieve. Knowing that Harry was breaking into his thoughts as a defence against Legilimency, he may have hidden others. That was the only one Harry saw at that time, but there may have been others. Obviously, he couldn't hide years worth of memories in a Penseive, but I think it's likely he hid more than that one memory.
I think there must have been others - he wouldn't have wanted Harry to see the memory of him agreeing to protect Lily's child, he'd asked Dumbledore not to reveal that. My take on why he chose the memory of him being tormented by the Marauders to put in the Pensieve is that, thinking Harry was just like James, he thought Harry would find his humiliation funny. That would have doubled the humiliation for him. He didn't know Harry well enough to know that Harry would be distressed by James' behaviour. Even if he had known that, I think he'd have hated to have Harry's pity too.


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  #1086  
Old June 1st, 2011, 5:32 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
I think there must have been others - he wouldn't have wanted Harry to see the memory of him agreeing to protect Lily's child, he'd asked Dumbledore not to reveal that. My take on why he chose the memory of him being tormented by the Marauders to put in the Pensieve is that, thinking Harry was just like James, he thought Harry would find his humiliation funny. That would have doubled the humiliation for him. He didn't know Harry well enough to know that Harry would be distressed by James' behaviour. Even if he had known that, I think he'd have hated to have Harry's pity too.
Wait, why would Snape WANT Harry to find something about him he'd find funny? He's not some kind of mental masochist.


  #1087  
Old June 1st, 2011, 5:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
Wait, why would Snape WANT Harry to find something about him he'd find funny? He's not some kind of mental masochist.
He didn't want Harry to see it. He wanted to conceal it from Harry, and so put it in the Pensieve.


  #1088  
Old June 1st, 2011, 5:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think we don't know for certain if Snape put other memories in the Pensieve. Knowing that Harry was breaking into his thoughts as a defence against Legilimency, he may have hidden others. That was the only one Harry saw at that time, but there may have been others. Obviously, he couldn't hide years worth of memories in a Penseive, but I think it's likely he hid more than that one memory.
I also think there must have been other memories, and that Harry might have probably seen more, had he stayed a bit longer, I just think there were none before SWM (asuming memories in Pensieves are shown in order, from earlier to later) which is why I was wondering why didn't hide memories of his friendship with Lily. Didn't he have any problems with Harry seeing them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
My take on why he chose the memory of him being tormented by the Marauders to put in the Pensieve is that, thinking Harry was just like James, he thought Harry would find his humiliation funny. That would have doubled the humiliation for him. He didn't know Harry well enough to know that Harry would be distressed by James' behaviour. Even if he had known that, I think he'd have hated to have Harry's pity too.
I quite agree with this. Snape doesn't strike me as the sort of person who'd want other people's sympathy and pity.


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  #1089  
Old June 1st, 2011, 7:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

IIRC, didn't Snape place his wand to his temple three times? Maybe he put in three memories. As to why he chose SWM, I think he was ashamed at what he said to Lily and, as horcrux4 suggested, didn't want Harry siding with James on this and taking advantage of the knowledge he'd gained. He has a rep to maintain!

Good point about previous memories. I just checked, and DD's in GoF seems to be in order as well, since Karkaroff gave the evidence that put Bagman under suspicion. This would suggest that memories will appear in order.


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  #1090  
Old June 2nd, 2011, 8:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
I also think there must have been other memories, and that Harry might have probably seen more, had he stayed a bit longer, I just think there were none before SWM (asuming memories in Pensieves are shown in order, from earlier to later) which is why I was wondering why didn't hide memories of his friendship with Lily. Didn't he have any problems with Harry seeing them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
IIRC, didn't Snape place his wand to his temple three times? Maybe he put in three memories....

Good point about previous memories. I just checked, and DD's in GoF seems to be in order as well, since Karkaroff gave the evidence that put Bagman under suspicion. This would suggest that memories will appear in order.

Princes Tale does not support Pensive memories being played in chronological order. Harry sees Snape fighting in the battle Over Little Whinging before he sees Snape taking Lily's letter from Sirius' room. Madeye most likely put up the protective defenses immediately after Dumbledore died, but certainly they had to be in place prior to the Battle of Little Whinging, in which Madeye dies.


  #1091  
Old June 3rd, 2011, 12:27 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuxedocat
Princes Tale does not support Pensive memories being played in chronological order. Harry sees Snape fighting in the battle Over Little Whinging before he sees Snape taking Lily's letter from Sirius' room. Madeye most likely put up the protective defenses immediately after Dumbledore died, but certainly they had to be in place prior to the Battle of Little Whinging, in which Madeye dies.
Good catch!
However I don't think it is conclusive either way.

If I'm getting this right you're saying that they can't be in chronological order because we see Snape at Grimmauld Place after Moody put his protective spells on Grimmauld place.
I personally do not think that Snape would have had any problem with Madeye's booby trap.
Is it not likely that Severus would have been ordered to search Grimmauld Place by Voldemort anyway?

I can't believe that the fact that most of the time the memories in a pensieve appear to be shown in chronological order is just a coincidence. Perhaps it is just a coincidence though. Perhaps Jo didn't give it that much thought. Or perhaps she just got these ones in the wrong order.


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  #1092  
Old June 3rd, 2011, 12:57 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

I think Jo did mention the memories are not in chronilogical order. I think she said it in an interview, which I'll have to look up.


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  #1093  
Old June 3rd, 2011, 2:32 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
I personally do not think that Snape would have had any problem with Madeye's booby trap.
I felt the same way after reading that scene. Harry was able to pass inside after saying something like "I did not kill you, Dumbledore". Some equally true statement by Snape like "I killed you as you asked, Dumbledore", seemed to me like it would also work. So I think Snape could have entered 12 GP after, and very well may have, whether or not the scene with him finding the photo happened after.

Quote:
I can't believe that the fact that most of the time the memories in a pensieve appear to be shown in chronological order is just a coincidence. Perhaps it is just a coincidence though. Perhaps Jo didn't give it that much thought. Or perhaps she just got these ones in the wrong order.
I think it is the latter, I think she made a deliberate artistic choice to put this one memory out of order. She has indicated in an interview that she thinks of the memory at 12 GP as happening shortly after Snape killed Dumbledore (which means Rowling thinks it appears out of order). I would guess she made this choice not to say something about the Pensieve, but to have Snape's memories follow Harry's DH chronology. Harry finds the photo Snape is seen weeping over, after the 7 Potters, so I think Rowling chooses to show us this scene in that same order to better remind us of that link between the two scenes.


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  #1094  
Old June 3rd, 2011, 2:39 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
I think there must have been others - he wouldn't have wanted Harry to see the memory of him agreeing to protect Lily's child, he'd asked Dumbledore not to reveal that. My take on why he chose the memory of him being tormented by the Marauders to put in the Pensieve is that, thinking Harry was just like James, he thought Harry would find his humiliation funny. That would have doubled the humiliation for him. He didn't know Harry well enough to know that Harry would be distressed by James' behaviour. Even if he had known that, I think he'd have hated to have Harry's pity too.
If this is true then it shows that Snape never really knew Harry at all - Harry is the last person IMO to laugh at anyone being bullied because Harry himself has been so badly bullied for most of his life, first with the Dursleys and then at Hogwarts by Snape and the Slytherins. Snape never gave Harry a chance to show he was upset by these memories and knew exactly how Snape felt. SNape had known Harry for nearly five years so that was IMO enough time to know Harry would not have laughed at the memories which he didn't.


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  #1095  
Old June 4th, 2011, 11:09 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
If this is true then it shows that Snape never really knew Harry at all - Harry is the last person IMO to laugh at anyone being bullied because Harry himself has been so badly bullied for most of his life, first with the Dursleys and then at Hogwarts by Snape and the Slytherins. Snape never gave Harry a chance to show he was upset by these memories and knew exactly how Snape felt. SNape had known Harry for nearly five years so that was IMO enough time to know Harry would not have laughed at the memories which he didn't.
Snape had known Harry for five years, yes, but he knew Harry as "arrogant as his father, a determined rule-breaker". IMO, Snape saw a lot of James in Harry. This is what makes me think that Snape would expect Harry to find his father's treatment of Snape funny. We know that Harry would not find it funny, since he had experienced much of it himself, but Snape had, IMO a biased view of Harry, because of James, which clouded his judgement in this area.


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Old June 4th, 2011, 2:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Isn't "Rule-Breaking" a Slytherin trait though?

Course, that might just make Snape angrier that they were using Slytherin traits as Gryffindors.


  #1097  
Old June 4th, 2011, 2:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Nnylarak View Post
Snape had known Harry for five years, yes, but he knew Harry as "arrogant as his father, a determined rule-breaker". IMO, Snape saw a lot of James in Harry. This is what makes me think that Snape would expect Harry to find his father's treatment of Snape funny. We know that Harry would not find it funny, since he had experienced much of it himself, but Snape had, IMO a biased view of Harry, because of James, which clouded his judgement in this area.
I agree. In fact Dumbledore told Snape (in the Prince's Tale memories) that Snape saw in Harry what he expected to see. From his very first lesson with Harry, Snape belittles him without finding out at all what he is like. I don't get the impression he knew anything about Harry's life with the Dursleys until he saw some snippets from it during the Occlumency lessons. He just seems to have seen Harry as another James and acted accordingly. Of course Harry was like James in some ways - his tendency to break rules and to answer back (when provoked) but his nature was much more like Lily's IMO - kind, modest and sympathetic. At school, Snape didn't seem to have the upper hand with James, so perhaps the temptation to treat this 'mini-James' as he would have liked to be able to treat the original, was overwhelming?


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  #1098  
Old June 4th, 2011, 3:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nnylarak View Post
This is what makes me think that Snape would expect Harry to find his father's treatment of Snape funny. We know that Harry would not find it funny, since he had experienced much of it himself, but Snape had, IMO a biased view of Harry, because of James, which clouded his judgement in this area.
I would not agree that Snape's incorrect guess as to Harry's likely reaction to his memory was due entirely to his emotional reactions to Harry based on his dislike of James. While by this point Snape, just as we did, knew Harry had shared similar experiences in his own childhood, first, he might not have assimilated this fully at the point in question (since he discovered this in the course of the Occlumency lessons during which Harry saw the mempry), and second, it does not at all follow that just because Harry had these sorts of experiences, he would not find them funny when they happened to someone else. In fact, he does find them funny when they happen to someone he dislikes. There is some likelihood Snape knows or believes this. He has seen, e. g. Harry hex Goyle with a spell that makes him break out in hideous boils, he believes Harry tossed a firecracker into Crabbe or Goyle's cauldron (and is unaware of Harry's true motivation), and he may, as Draco's Head of House, have learned of the incident in which "Moody" changed Draco into a ferret (which Harry certainly did find funny).

I think we also need to remember that our knowledge base about Harry is different than Snape's was. For example, we know how Harry stood up for Neville when Draco picked on him, and that he was getting to know Luna and getting to like her as a friend despite her eccentricities, and many similar examples, all of which so far as I can recall, occured outside of Potions class. Snape's assessment of Harry would be limited (logically) to what he, personally, saw of Harry.

But I agree some amount of bias was present. In fact, it seems to me Snape was deliberately trying to make himself see the worst in Harry. My reason for thinking so is that, some 9 months after this scene, having learned to additional important information about Harry that I can think of, Snape appeared not to harbor doubts as to Harry's likely reaction to the news he, Harry, would have to die in order for Voldemort to be defeated. Which suggests that somewhere in his heart of hearts, Snape knew there was more to Harry than a cheeky, inattentive student who liked to harass Draco and his pals.


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  #1099  
Old June 4th, 2011, 4:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nnylarak
Snape had known Harry for five years, yes, but he knew Harry as "arrogant as his father, a determined rule-breaker". IMO, Snape saw a lot of James in Harry.
I agree with that, but in regards to this incident, I don't think the main reason of Snape's anger was that Harry would laugh at the memory, or Harry's reaction in general, but the fact that Harry had took advantage of his absence to invade his privacy, (which ironically proves the wrong ideas Snape formed about Harry being arrogant, and keen on breaking rules as his father, ). I still think he was very offended that Harry, the son of the man who caused him so much misery, would be the one who happened to view those very private memories, which as far as we know, no-one else knew about.

I think Snape was rightfully angry here, though I don't think he should have stopped the lessons because of that. After all, seeing those memories didn't harm anyone, compared to the terrible consequences of Harry not learning Occlumency (which was also partially Harry's and Dumbledore's faults, but that's for another thread..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowSonic
Isn't "Rule-Breaking" a Slytherin trait though?

Course, that might just make Snape angrier that they were using Slytherin traits as Gryffindors.
Well, I really doubt there's any canon that refers to this, much less any character that would serve as an example for this statement. All the 'well-known' rule-breakers happened to be Gryffindors actually; the Marauders, the Twins and the Trio (to an extent), are some examples.


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Old June 4th, 2011, 7:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
Well, I really doubt there's any canon that refers to this, much less any character that would serve as an example for this statement. All the 'well-known' rule-breakers happened to be Gryffindors actually; the Marauders, the Twins and the Trio (to an extent), are some examples.
Many of the well-known law-breakers are Slytherins - and laws are a specific kind of rule. Voldemort, Lucius and Draco Malfoy, Bellatrix, Snape, for example. And then, there's the Sorting Hat's phrase that Slytherins "use any means to achieve their ends". That sounds rather like rule-breaking, to me. Dumbledore also refers to Harry's disregard for rules as something Salazar Slytherin valued in his students.


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