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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



View Poll Results: How do you think Dumbledore and Snape viewed their relationship?
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  #1021  
Old July 13th, 2011, 4:23 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post

Absolutely. I agree. In fact, I would have liked the Order to be more like her; not believe Dumbledore could have made such a mistake, confident and trusting of their leader. These people had followed Dumbledore unquestioningly for over 20 years and in one minute, they all came to a conclusion that Dumbledore had after all been fooled and had been fooled for over 16 years by Snape. But, Hermione in my view was more intelligent and trusting of the man she had chosen to follow and she refused to believe he would be taken in so simply as that and fo so long. Perhaps that is why Dumbledore left the job to Harry, his friends and Snape, rather than trust the Order that did not trust him enough to question his death/ask his portrait before coming to conclusions IMO.
I don't know, I always thought the unquestioning trust in Dumbledore and his judgements, to be a bit annoying. I believe everybody can mistakes, and while Hermione was right to go on trusting Dumbledore (or rather hoping that her trust in him wasn't betrayed), I think the Order's behaviour was more believable. Snape made sure Dumbledore never told anyone about the reason he turned on their side and was so fully trusted by him. The Order members had the right to form their own opinion, and not just accept Dumbledore's judgement on things, without evidence (in fact all evidence they saw, was the exact opposite of what Dumbledore was saying!).
I think Snape and Dumbledore worked rather secretivly, and while that was important to the success of the mission, I still think Dumbledore should have told the Order (who were working equally hard towards the same goal) something to lower their doubts and prevent disturbance among the Order members themselves.


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  #1022  
Old July 13th, 2011, 5:27 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
I think Snape and Dumbledore worked rather secretivly, and while that was important to the success of the mission, I still think Dumbledore should have told the Order (who were working equally hard towards the same goal) something to lower their doubts and prevent disturbance among the Order members themselves.
I'm not sure what else Dumbledore could have told the order about Snape that they didn't know already. When Harry told Lupin why Dumbledore believed Snape had switched sides, Lupin thought it was ludicrous. Sirius and Lupin had heard Snape call Lily a mudblood, and even Lily didn't know Snape loved her.


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  #1023  
Old July 13th, 2011, 6:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
I think the Order's behaviour was more believable.
Yes; after a while IMO, after questions had been raised with Dumbledore's portrait; I think the admission that Snape had indeed turned traitor and was now a DE and murderer, should have come after every other possibility had been exhausted. Not at once, because I think that makes Dumbledore look like a weak person who was taken in for 16 long years by false tears of remorse and apology, which made him trust a DE with all kinds of sensitive information that could in effect take the war completely from the Order and the WW and ensure Harry's death IMO.

The strange thing was that after completely believing that Dumbledore was fooled by Snape, the Order still lets Harry & Co. leave without any serious opposition; if they believed that Dumbledore was fooled, how can they be sure that the secret Harry knew, Snape did not know? Snape could have been in the know of Harry's secret job, in which case that would neatly send Harry and his friends into Voldemort's and Snape's arms IMO. So, I think the Order did not conduct itself very well.

Quote:
The Order members had the right to form their own opinion, and not just accept Dumbledore's judgement on things, without evidence (in fact all evidence they saw, was the exact opposite of what Dumbledore was saying!).
If that was the evidence which they chose to believe, then how could they allow Harry and Co to leave (yes, they left secretly) but they were not sat down and told seriously that whatever job Dumbledore left for them, could be compromised because Snape could be in on it and to the Order he was the traitor, the murderer of the man who sheltered him for 16 years. But nothing like that happens IMO. Molly Weasley does not want the trio to go fearing for their life, more than because she or any member of the Order thought that Dumbledore's job for Harry could be compromised IMO.

So, I think on the one hand the Order is agreeable to look at Snape negatively and believe Dumbledore was fooled, but on the other hand they don't seem to do anything to stem the damage of what Snape could have learnt and neither do they make Harry and Co. aware of the fact, their job could very well be compromised in the worst way possible IMO.

Quote:
I think Snape and Dumbledore worked rather secretivly, and while that was important to the success of the mission, I still think Dumbledore should have told the Order (who were working equally hard towards the same goal) something to lower their doubts and prevent disturbance among the Order members themselves.
Perhaps he did not, because he understood that many of them would believe too easily.


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  #1024  
Old July 14th, 2011, 1:49 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Gwendolen View Post
I'm not sure what else Dumbledore could have told the order about Snape that they didn't know already. When Harry told Lupin why Dumbledore believed Snape had switched sides, Lupin thought it was ludicrous. Sirius and Lupin had heard Snape call Lily a mudblood, and even Lily didn't know Snape loved her.
Lupin thought it was ludicrous because Dumbledore wasn't telling the truth there. He told Harry that Snape felt sorry for the Potters' death; which was both ludicrous and not true. Snape didn't feel sorry for James' death, at least it doesn't say so anywhere in canon. Nobody believed that Snape felt sorry for James' death, because why should he feel sorry for the person who was his childhood enemy, why should he, a DE, regret the death of a bloodtraitor? It doesn't make sense, and I think Dumbledore should have realised that.
What could he have told them? He could have told them that Snape felt sorry for Lily's death, which should have gotten them thinking rather than completely disbelieving. There is a chance they could've guessed at the truth, (especially that they saw Lily standing up for him), and Dumbledore still wouldn't have betrayed Snape's trust.

TGW: You make several good points. It's mostly about the Order, so I'm going to reply there, .


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  #1025  
Old July 17th, 2011, 2:55 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
Lupin thought it was ludicrous because Dumbledore wasn't telling the truth there. He told Harry that Snape felt sorry for the Potters' death; which was both ludicrous and not true.
This is incorrect. Harry tells Lupin that Dumbledore said this, but Dumbledore did not say what Harry reported. What Dumbledore said, was that Snape felt remorse when he learned how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy.


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  #1026  
Old July 17th, 2011, 9:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
Snape made sure Dumbledore never told anyone about the reason he turned on their side and was so fully trusted by him. The Order members had the right to form their own opinion, and not just accept Dumbledore's judgement on things, without evidence (in fact all evidence they saw, was the exact opposite of what Dumbledore was saying!).
I think Snape and Dumbledore worked rather secretivly, and while that was important to the success of the mission, I still think Dumbledore should have told the Order (who were working equally hard towards the same goal) something to lower their doubts and prevent disturbance among the Order members themselves.
Dumbledore's promise to Snape meant that he couldn't alleviate the concerns of the Order. These were grown men and women, risking their lives for the sake of a safe future for their loved ones. I think blind acceptance of Dumbledore's word is a bit disappointing, when that is taken into account. I find it hard to imagine paranoid, hard-line Mad-Eye Moody just accepting that Dumbledore trusted Snape, with no explanation.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Yes; after a while IMO, after questions had been raised with Dumbledore's portrait; I think the admission that Snape had indeed turned traitor and was now a DE and murderer, should have come after every other possibility had been exhausted. Not at once, because I think that makes Dumbledore look like a weak person who was taken in for 16 long years by false tears of remorse and apology, which made him trust a DE with all kinds of sensitive information that could in effect take the war completely from the Order and the WW and ensure Harry's death IMO.
What else could the Order have believed? They had eye-witness testimony that Snape had killed Dumbledore, what more did they need? Snape's past as a DE spoke against him, too. IMO, believing that Dumbledore made a mistake does not mean they believed him weak or foolish. They knew for a fact that Dumbledore had been deceived by Peter Pettigrew and by Crouch Jr, and they continued to respect him and follow him as leader of the Order. Their anger was not directed at the person they believed to have been betrayted, but at the person they believed to be a traitor.

Quote:
If that was the evidence which they chose to believe, then how could they allow Harry and Co to leave (yes, they left secretly) but they were not sat down and told seriously that whatever job Dumbledore left for them, could be compromised because Snape could be in on it and to the Order he was the traitor, the murderer of the man who sheltered him for 16 years. But nothing like that happens IMO. Molly Weasley does not want the trio to go fearing for their life, more than because she or any member of the Order thought that Dumbledore's job for Harry could be compromised IMO.
The Trio did not leave secretly, they were forced to leave a day before they had planned, because of the DEs attacking the wedding. Also, I think they knew or believed that Harry and his friends were the only people Dumbledore told of this plan. They did not know that Dumbledore secretly confided extra information in Snape, that the rest of the Order were not privy to. I think that would be counter-productive to Snape's role as a spy.

Quote:
So, I think on the one hand the Order is agreeable to look at Snape negatively and believe Dumbledore was fooled, but on the other hand they don't seem to do anything to stem the damage of what Snape could have learnt and neither do they make Harry and Co. aware of the fact, their job could very well be compromised in the worst way possible IMO.
No Order meetings are shown, so it doesn't become clear what the Order did about Snape. Apart from the ones Harry knows of - the traps at Grimmauld Place, and sending Harry on the motorcycle, because they believed Snape would tell Voldemort that Harry was a skilled flier, and likely to be on a broomstick.


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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
This is incorrect. Harry tells Lupin that Dumbledore said this, but Dumbledore did not say what Harry reported. What Dumbledore said, was that Snape felt remorse when he learned how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy.
Here is Dumbledore's explanation:

[fieldset =HBP, page 512, UK edition] "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing -which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -" [/fieldset]

(Bold mine)
Dumbledore does not say that Snape did not know someone would die because of the prophecy, he says that Snape did not know who would die. IMO, Dumbledore was telling Harry that Snape was sorry when he knew who would be targeted. This is what Harry tells Lupin.


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  #1027  
Old July 18th, 2011, 6:50 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Snape's past as a DE spoke against him, too.
I agree. I believe that it was Snape's past as a DE that went against him; his work for the next 16 years were all but ignored and also was ignored, in my view, was Dumbledore's intelligence, because the instant belief by the Order, spoke about their opinion that they thought Dumbeldore's wisdom being faulty not just for one year, but many, many years and when Snape was by his side for all of them. None of them thought to ask Harry the exact sequence about the events that night, before they came to conclusions IMO.

Quote:
IMO, believing that Dumbledore made a mistake does not mean they believed him weak or foolish.
I don't think it makes Dumbledore look weak or foolish as much as it does the order, because they were willing to believe the this of Dumbledore (by being taken in by a DE, in a war that could well lose the war for them). It reflects poorly on the Order than on Dumbledore IMO.

Quote:
They knew for a fact that Dumbledore had been deceived by Peter Pettigrew and by Crouch Jr, and they continued to respect him and follow him as leader of the Order. Their anger was not directed at the person they believed to have been betrayed, but at the person they believed to be a traitor.
With Peter, I think, Dumbledore suspected and knew of a traitor, but did not know who it was; he did not suspect Peter because the Potters were safe in that year, when the Order became aware of the spy. As far as Crouch Jr. was concerned, I think, again Dumbledore was not aware of the exchange, and once he was aware he took steps to correct the damage.

Snape imo was different; he was a DE who Dumbledore believed completely had changed and turned from that side to his. With Peter and Barty, Dumbledore had no knowledge; with Snape, Dumbledore did; he questioned Snape and gave him a clean chit; he spoke for Snape at his trial and defended Snape when Karakoff took his name. With the other two it was not knowing, while with Snape it was believing that Snape was not a DE. IMO this was different; trusting Snape who changed from a DE to an Order member placed an onus on Dumbledore, who had cleared him and then went on to trust him for the next 16 years. This trust was where the Order felt Dumbledore had been wrong; the belief in Snape for 16 years was where the Order wondered if it was warranted and in the end by believing that Dumbeldore's trust had failed him, they were in reality questioning Dumbledore's capacity to seek the truth from a man who came to him seeking another chance, filled with remorse. They felt Dumbledore had been fooled by such a show of remorse for 16 years, which imo reflects on the type of respect Dumbledore commanded, despite his power and command and his ability to fight a hard war for the WW IMO.

Quote:
No Order meetings are shown, so it doesn't become clear what the Order did about Snape. Apart from the ones Harry knows of - the traps at Grimmauld Place, and sending Harry on the motorcycle, because they believed Snape would tell Voldemort that Harry was a skilled flier, and likely to be on a broomstick.
They may have done something; but I think from the lack of anything on Snape except the traps on Grimmauld Place, they don't seem to have done anything much.


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  #1028  
Old July 18th, 2011, 8:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape imo was different; he was a DE who Dumbledore believed completely had changed and turned from that side to his. With Peter and Barty, Dumbledore had no knowledge; with Snape, Dumbledore did; he questioned Snape and gave him a clean chit; he spoke for Snape at his trial and defended Snape when Karakoff took his name. With the other two it was not knowing, while with Snape it was believing that Snape was not a DE. IMO this was different; trusting Snape who changed from a DE to an Order member placed an onus on Dumbledore, who had cleared him and then went on to trust him for the next 16 years. This trust was where the Order felt Dumbledore had been wrong; the belief in Snape for 16 years was where the Order wondered if it was warranted and in the end by believing that Dumbeldore's trust had failed him, they were in reality questioning Dumbledore's capacity to seek the truth from a man who came to him seeking another chance, filled with remorse. They felt Dumbledore had been fooled by such a show of remorse for 16 years, which imo reflects on the type of respect Dumbledore commanded, despite his power and command and his ability to fight a hard war for the WW IMO.
I think if Dumbledore wanted the Order to trust Snape he would have kept them in the loop about what was going on. Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and could have informed whoever was going to take over as leader of the Order about what plans he had in action. Dumbledore did not do so. I do not see any reason for the Order members to assume Dumbledore's murder was actually a lie constructed by Dumbledore and Snape. Neither Dumbledore nor Snape trusted the Order with their plans. It seems to me that both Dumbledore and Snape deliberately wanted it to look like Snape had fooled and then murdered Dumbledore. If either Snape or Dumbledore wanted Snape to be trusted by the Order, I think they would have worked on that more.

I do not think it is foolish or disrespectful for the Order to consider the evidence before them. I think they simply understood that Dumbledore was human, and could be fooled. Dumbledore was not omniscient, or omnipotent; he belonged to the race of men, not gods, and I personally think it was good for the people who dealt with Dumbledore to understand that. I think the Order kept their focus on the goals that both they and Dumbledore strove towards, which I think is respect enough. I really am at a lose to think why they would or should continue accepting Snape just because Dumbledore had said he trusted him before Snape killed him. People should think for themselves, in my opinion, and people who want to be trusted by those people should provide reason for them to trust, in my opinion. In the end, I would say that the Order wasn't too far off in their assessment. I think Snape showed loyalty to Dumbledore's person, but not to the Order. So I think Dumbledore trusted Snape, and Snape was trustworthy for Dumbledore, but that did not make Snape trustworthy to the Order, because his loyalty never was to the Order.


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  #1029  
Old July 18th, 2011, 8:36 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Gwendolen View Post
I'm not sure what else Dumbledore could have told the order about Snape that they didn't know already. When Harry told Lupin why Dumbledore believed Snape had switched sides, Lupin thought it was ludicrous.
Since Harry did misrepresent Dumbledore's statement, I find Lupin's reaction reasonable (though he could have remembered Lily was Snape's friend before the insult. He certainly knew it).

However, I think there really was nothing Dumbledore could tell the Order, other than that Snape regretted being a Death Eater, and he, Dumbledore, believed it. Snape was a spy; that there was doubt about him in the Order's ranks was all to the good, it provided some protection to him from the great danger he faced for the cause, however flimsy. That there was no doubt about him among the Order after he "murdered" Voldemort, was probably even more imporant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
They may have done something; but I think from the lack of anything on Snape except the traps on Grimmauld Place, they don't seem to have done anything much.
Maybe the Orderplanned the shampoo jokes on Potterwatch.


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  #1030  
Old August 1st, 2011, 5:23 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis


Did Dumbledore and Snape fully trust one another?



I do not think Dumbledore ever fully trusted him. If he did then he would of told him the full plan.



5. Do you think Severus was jealous (in a sibling-type way) of Dumbledore's fondness for Harry?


No!!


6. Do you believe Dumbledore consciously saw the parallels between his own story and Snape's?



Yes!

7. Dumbledore and Snape worked together for years before Harry showed up. How do you think their relationship changed once Harry came to Hogwarts? Did it change once Voldemort returned in GoF?

I am not sure how much work they would of done together considering Voldie has been gone years.


8. How would you characterize their relationship when Severus was a student? Do you think that Albus may have been aware of Severus’ interest in the Death Eaters while he was at Hogwarts?


I do not think they would of had much contact unless Snape was grassing up James for something.

9. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?

I just think this is very poor writing on Jk's part. In no logically way would Harry of named a beloved son after such a bitter man. It is just so Corney and makes no sense .
Who names a son after a man that lusted after his mum and would of happily seen Harry and his father die just to get his wish?!


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  #1031  
Old August 1st, 2011, 6:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
The Trio did not leave secretly, they were forced to leave a day before they had planned, because of the DEs attacking the wedding. Also, I think they knew or believed that Harry and his friends were the only people Dumbledore told of this plan. They did not know that Dumbledore secretly confided extra information in Snape, that the rest of the Order were not privy to. I think that would be counter-productive to Snape's role as a spy.
Exactly. Dumbledore only trusted certain people with certain information. As he told Snape (seen in TPT), he chose to not place all his eggs in one basket. He told each individual what that person needed to know to fulfill that person's mission. It was true with Harry and it was true with Snape. By extension, it was also true with the Order.

I think the Order was well aware that Dumbledore had told Harry something in confidence. After Harry and the Order leave Privet Drive at the beginning of DH, when the finally arrive at the Burrow, Kinglsey and Lupin challenge each other:

Kingsley: "The last words Albus Dumbledore spoke to the pair of us?"

Lupin: "Harry is the best hope we have. Trust him."

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I think if Dumbledore wanted the Order to trust Snape he would have kept them in the loop about what was going on. Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and could have informed whoever was going to take over as leader of the Order about what plans he had in action. Dumbledore did not do so. I do not see any reason for the Order members to assume Dumbledore's murder was actually a lie constructed by Dumbledore and Snape. Neither Dumbledore nor Snape trusted the Order with their plans. It seems to me that both Dumbledore and Snape deliberately wanted it to look like Snape had fooled and then murdered Dumbledore. If either Snape or Dumbledore wanted Snape to be trusted by the Order, I think they would have worked on that more.
I disagree for the reason I stated above. Dumbledore knew that the only way to defeat Voldemort was to have different people have different information. It's a good strategy: if anyone was caught and tortured, that person could only give partial information. Additionally, Voldemort had two people that he could perform Legilimency on: Harry and Snape. Therefore, Harry certainly couldn't know about Snape's innocence in Dumbledore's death because if Voldemort tried to access Harry's mind and saw that, Snape would be useless as a spy (and possibly dead). Likewise, although Snape could perform Occlumency, Harry's mission must be kept a secret from Snape and EVERYONE because it was crucial that Voldemort did not know that Harry was hunting horcruxes.


The Order was on a "need to know basis." They knew what they needed to know. Frankly, it was important that they didn't know the truth about Snape. Once Snape killed Dumbledore, the stakes increased. Dumbledore realized this. Snape's mission was more important than ever. If anyone had suspected the truth, Snape would not have been able to fulfill his final mission. It's all well and good to assume that the Order could protect that secret, but perhaps Dumbledore learned from the first war that the Order could easily have had a traitor undetected.


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  #1032  
Old August 1st, 2011, 6:32 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I think if Dumbledore wanted the Order to trust Snape he would have kept them in the loop about what was going on. Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and could have informed whoever was going to take over as leader of the Order about what plans he had in action. Dumbledore did not do so. I do not see any reason for the Order members to assume Dumbledore's murder was actually a lie constructed by Dumbledore and Snape. Neither Dumbledore nor Snape trusted the Order with their plans. It seems to me that both Dumbledore and Snape deliberately wanted it to look like Snape had fooled and then murdered Dumbledore. If either Snape or Dumbledore wanted Snape to be trusted by the Order, I think they would have worked on that more.
In my opinion, it was absolutely crucial for the Order not to trust Snape and to believe that he was, in fact, a murderer and a Death Eater. This was the best cover for Dumbledore's plans. It ensured that someone who looked like a Death Eater and was believed by both sides to be a Death Eater - but who was actually loyal to Dumbledore and the Order - would be in the school and able to operate covertly on behalf of Harry and the Order.

This is what good spywork does. It misleads and obfuscates the truth. Nobody in the Order needed to know Snape's true loyalties. In fact, it was best that they did not.

All of this, I think, makes Dumbledore one of the great spymasters in literature. And the fact that he did not put all of his secrets in one basket - that both of his covert operatives and all the members of the Order operated only on a need-to-know - only re-emphasizes this ability, in my opinion.


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Old August 2nd, 2011, 5:56 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
In my opinion, it was absolutely crucial for the Order not to trust Snape and to believe that he was, in fact, a murderer and a Death Eater. This was the best cover for Dumbledore's plans. It ensured that someone who looked like a Death Eater and was believed by both sides to be a Death Eater - but who was actually loyal to Dumbledore and the Order - would be in the school and able to operate covertly on behalf of Harry and the Order.

This is what good spywork does. It misleads and obfuscates the truth. Nobody in the Order needed to know Snape's true loyalties. In fact, it was best that they did not.

All of this, I think, makes Dumbledore one of the great spymasters in literature. And the fact that he did not put all of his secrets in one basket - that both of his covert operatives and all the members of the Order operated only on a need-to-know - only re-emphasizes this ability, in my opinion.
I totally agree with you. It was essential that the Order believed that Snape had killed Dumbledore for Voldemort to continue to trust Snape. Any sign that they did not hate Snape for it, or that they still trusted him would have blown his cover and put him in mortal danger. Although the Order members were generally trustworthy there is no knowing what any one of them might have said if they had been captured and given Veritaserum or had Voldemort perform Legilimency on them. It was a risk Dumbledore and Snape couldn't afford to take.


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Old August 8th, 2011, 3:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I think if Dumbledore wanted the Order to trust Snape he would have kept them in the loop about what was going on. Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and could have informed whoever was going to take over as leader of the Order about what plans he had in action. Dumbledore did not do so.
I agree. I also think Dumbledore did not do so, and I think it may be because Dumbledore could have been aware of the fact that the Order was a little too willing to believe the worst of Snape all along.

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I do not see any reason for the Order members to assume Dumbledore's murder was actually a lie constructed by Dumbledore and Snape. Neither Dumbledore nor Snape trusted the Order with their plans. It seems to me that both Dumbledore and Snape deliberately wanted it to look like Snape had fooled and then murdered Dumbledore. If either Snape or Dumbledore wanted Snape to be trusted by the Order, I think they would have worked on that more.
I agree. I just want to say that it is not that I feel the Order members should not believe Snape turned traitor or disbelieve Harry who saw the whole thing. I just feel that the swiftness in their acceptance of what they perceived as Snape's true character which had emerged did not do Dumbledore, his wisdom, his intelligence and their trust in him, justice. I am sure Snape and Dumbledore meant for the Order to believe the worst of Snape; that they wanted Snape to be seen as a DE from that moment onwards; so that what Dumbledore had planned for Snape in the days and months to come would move smoothly. But I feel it would have been to their credit had they questioned a little first; not for Snape's sake but for Dumbledore's, before they had to accept the inevitable. That did not happen IMO. There is nothing to say McGonagall even asked Dumbledore's portrait about it. They were all convinced by their own conclusions born out of their own convictions held at bay only because Dumbledore demanded it for all those years IMO.

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I do not think it is foolish or disrespectful for the Order to consider the evidence before them.
Even an open and shut case of first degree murder stands trial in court before they are judged innocent or guilty, because even the worst case scenarios could have strange stories that contradict the evidence. In fact this was one such case, where the evidence was totally contrary to the truth IMO. I think the Order was in a hurry to believe the worst of Snape and Dumbledore IMO.

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I really am at a lose to think why they would or should continue accepting Snape just because Dumbledore had said he trusted him before Snape killed him.
They need not have, I agree. But if they really felt Dumbledore was making a mistake with Snape, I think they should have confronted him when he was alive, just so that he would not have died the way he did IMO.

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I think Snape showed loyalty to Dumbledore's person, but not to the Order.
How do you conclude this? Because I think Dumbledore was the Order and Snape was very much loyal to both the Order and it's leader.

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Old August 8th, 2011, 4:48 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Even an open and shut case of first degree murder stands trial in court before they are judged innocent or guilty, because even the worst case scenarios could have strange stories that contradict the evidence. In fact this was one such case, where the evidence was totally contrary to the truth IMO. I think the Order was in a hurry to believe the worst of Snape and Dumbledore IMO.
We have proof that this is not always so in the Wizarding World. Sirius was sentenced without a trial and Dumbledore did nothing to convince himself or others otherwise.

The Order members were shocked and they had first-hand knowledge from an eyewitness. Why would they have been suspicious? I cannot agree with your interpretation that this was 'thinking the worst of Snape and Dumbledore'.


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Old August 8th, 2011, 5:31 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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We have proof that this is not always so in the Wizarding World. Sirius was sentenced without a trial and Dumbledore did nothing to convince himself or others otherwise.

The Order members were shocked and they had first-hand knowledge from an eyewitness. Why would they have been suspicious? I cannot agree with your interpretation that this was 'thinking the worst of Snape and Dumbledore'.
What happened to Sirius may have been a miscarriage of justice, but I think even if there had been a trial the result would have been the same. Likewise, Snape had zero compelling evidence with which to convince anyone that he hadn't just murdered in cold blood. (Although from a legalistic point of view he still earned a life sentence in Azkaban for having used the Avada Kedavra on a person.)

I don't really see anything implausible or rash about the Order members concluding that it was simple treachery. After all, everyone else involved--including eyewitnesses--believed that Snape had betrayed Dumbledore and killed him on Voldemort's orders, and that seems to have been by design.

Let's not forget, the original report came through Harry, didn't it? He's a pretty reliable source of information, so why shouldn't they take it at face value. It's also important to remember, I think, that working with someone doesn't necessarily imply trust or affection. The prevailing opinion about Snape appears to have been that nobody really wanted him around, but Dumbledore insisted.

But, on the other hand, I think some more ready reactions might have just been a result of Dumbledore's death itself rather than a specific comment about Snape. Dumbledore had always been there, for every single character's entire life; he was almost a mythical figure. I do not believe Harry's reaction to his death was a unique one. It's almost as though, if Dumbledore was capable of dying, then he must not have been perfect: While they trusted him to make wise decisions, they had also trusted him to always be there. That he failed them in one regard may have created a domino effect of doubt and anxiety about a number of his decisions. Still, I think that's a pretty reasonable reaction to such a stunning turn of events. ETA: Snape did kill him, after all. I wouldn't insist too much that anyone forgive that, even if it was later explained as a righteously motivated coup de grace.



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Old August 8th, 2011, 5:39 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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We have proof that this is not always so in the Wizarding World. Sirius was sentenced without a trial and Dumbledore did nothing to convince himself or others otherwise.
I think that was because Sirius, after he was captured never defended himself and told the truth about Peter being the SK and the traitor, who he very well knew escaped IMO.

Dumbledore knew Sirius was the SK; he had nothing to tell him that status had changed. Dumbledore already suspected Sirius (POA - The Marauder's Map - James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black would go into hiding himself ... and yet, Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potter's SK himself.)

1) I think it's implied that Dumbledore suspected Black and after the Potters died and Black was captured, he never tried to tell anyone he was innocent. In that light and in the light of again what Dumbledore knew and probably gave evidence (if not at the trial, but privately to Barty Sr), Sirius was sent to Azkaban.

There was nothing to say Sirius was innocent - not Dumbledore's opinion, not Sirius himself and not his friends - two of whom he was supposed to have killed and one did not know anything except that he thought he was suspected as the traitor IMO.

In Snape's case, I believe it was different. Dumbledore vouched for him for over 16 years. That IMO is the crucial difference between Snape's case and pretty much others. Dumbledore thought Snape had changed; Dumbledore was confident Snape felt remorse for James and Lily (HBP - the Seer Overheard); Dumbledore felt Snape was on their side; Dumbledore completely trusted Snape. It was this that the Order was contesting and this Dumbledore felt not for one year or two years, but for over 16 years.

That was what the Order was questioning and in my view the Order fell short when they accepted that "Of course Dumbledore was fooled; did they not know Snape was a DE all along; did they not wonder?"

As I've said before, it's not that I disagree that the Order should not have accepted Snape as the traitor or that Dumbledore was fooled; it's just that they were almost eager to do so, not realising they were questioning Dumbledore, not Snape IMO.


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Old August 8th, 2011, 6:35 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

This is the reaction to Harry's simple three-word statement:

HBP"Snape killed Dumbledore," said Harry.

[McGonagall] stared at him for a moment, then swayed alarmingly....

"Snape," repeated McGonagall faintly, falling into the chair. "We all wondered... but he trusted... always... Snape... I can't believe it..."

"Snape was a highly accomplished Occlumens," said Lupin, his voice uncharacteristically harsh. "We always knew that."

"But Dumbledore swore he was on our side!" whispered Tonks. "I always thought Dumbledore must know something about Snape that we didn't..." .

"He always hinted that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape," muttered Professor McGonagall, now dabbing at the corners of her leaking eyes with a tartan-edged handkerchief. "I mean... with Snape's history ... of course people were bound to wonder... but Dumbledore told me explicitly that Snape's repentance was absolutely genuine... wouldn't hear a word against him!"


This is what I'm getting out of this:
  • McGonagall is very surprised by this news, to the point where she feels faint
  • McGonagall states that "we all wondered," in that they weren't quite sure of Snape's loyalties
  • Lupin is either "uncharacteristically" angry at hearing this news, or is attempting to remind McGonagall that this is indeed possible.
  • Dumbledore told the Order Snape was on their side, but did not give reasons. He must also have told them this during the second war, as Tonks was able to hear it.
  • McGonagall says that DD "always" hinted that he had reasons. This IMO suggests he was asked more than once, as he wouldn't give the same speech multiple times for no reason.
  • While he was either "Severus" or "Professor Snape" seconds before, he is simply "Snape" now.
  • These conclusions are reached in response to Harry's statement "Snape killed Dumbledore," which is as shocking as it is lacking in detail.
In light of this, I think it's clear that Snape's past and the secrecy he and DD insisted on prevented many Order members from ever fully trusting him. I think they are rather quick to accept the "truth" because on a deeper level, it was always the truth to them. If they never trusted Snape in the first place, then it's not going to make much sense for them to need anything further than "Snape killed Dumbledore" to believe Snape was the villain.

And keep in mind that as the news settles in and they take turns filling in what they think must have been Snape's motives (they are waaay off, of course ) they not only learn that Snape stunned Flitwick and called to the other DEs as though he were their confederate, but are also solidifying these doubts about DD and convictions of Snape's villainy in their minds.

Add to this Harry's explanation of Snape's story:

HBP"I know," said Harry, and they all turned to look at him. "Snape passed Voldemort the information that made Voldemort hunt down my mum and dad. Then Snape told Dumbledore he hadn't realized what he was doing, he was really sorry he'd done it, sorry that they were dead."

They all stared at him.

"And Dumbledore believed that?" said Lupin incredulously. "Dumbledore believed Snape was sorry James was dead? Snape hated James..."

"And he didn't think my mother was worth a damn either," said Harry, "because she was Muggle-born... 'Mudblood,' he called her..."

Harry does not know the whole story, but he does wholeheartedly believe Snape was lying to DD. I notice three things:
1) He places the event after the Potters' deaths. This makes it seem as though Snape saw the Dark Lord fall and wanted to get out of prison.
2) This version sounds like Snape really did say at the time that he was sorry for both Potters, to which Lupin points out the obvious problem there.
3) Having only seen SWM by this point, Harry concludes that Snape didn't care about Lily either, and shares this.

When put that way, Snape's story seems very unbelievable, and only serves to increase the Order's doubts about Dumbledore (and, by extension, Snape)


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Last edited by ignisia; August 8th, 2011 at 6:39 pm.
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Old August 9th, 2011, 1:56 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
This is the reaction to Harry's simple three-word statement:

HBP"Snape killed Dumbledore," said Harry.
Yes, Harry's details are remarkably lacking

I understand that he cannot tell the rest of the Order that he and Dumbledore were off hunting horcruxes, but Harry most certainly fails to tell them all of the details (such as the fact that DD was weak and possibly dying from the potion he drank). Granted, I guess at that moment, the only important thing to Harry was that DD was dead and Snape, in Harry's opinion, was responsible.

Quote:
Harry does not know the whole story, but he does wholeheartedly believe Snape was lying to DD. I notice three things:
1) He places the event after the Potters' deaths. This makes it seem as though Snape saw the Dark Lord fall and wanted to get out of prison.
2) This version sounds like Snape really did say at the time that he was sorry for both Potters, to which Lupin points out the obvious problem there.
3) Having only seen SWM by this point, Harry concludes that Snape didn't care about Lily either, and shares this.

When put that way, Snape's story seems very unbelievable, and only serves to increase the Order's doubts about Dumbledore (and, by extension, Snape)
Another thing I find interesting about this conversation is that no one corrects Harry here. Lupin, at the very least, knew of Snape and Lily's friendship. When Harry accuses Snape of not caring about Lily, at least one person in that room knows differently but says nothing. Again, I suspect that the overwhelming news of DD's death overshadowed all other details at that moment.


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Old August 9th, 2011, 2:08 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Responded in the Lupin thread.


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