Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Severus Snape's Death



 
 
Thread Tools
  #1421  
Old December 15th, 2007, 1:30 am
Graduand_Esk  Female.gif Graduand_Esk is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 5167 days
Location: The Scottish Wildlands
Posts: 179
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Greetings again, everyone.

I agree that Snape was trying to hold off death for as long as possible to give himself one last chance of completing his mission, but he is definitely, definitely dead (alas!) The description of the change that seems to happen to him, the mention of the 'something' vanishing from the depths of his eyes, is quite clear - what we see here is literally the moment of the soul's departure. Some people have mentioned a similarity in the description to that of Dobby's death (another character who is dead, beyond any doubt.) The only room for doubt or speculation is, I think, in the case of anyone who happened to die unseen and whose body wasn't recovered.

Cue for speculation on the fate of Moody...

I actually liked the way Snape's death scene was written. Like many others, I would have been perfectly happy to see him in a duel - something he would have been brave enough to face, no problem. However, I also see the merit in the quiet, obscure death, a situation where we see him vulnerable and ready - at last - to share his memories. Actually, the fact that the hero of the story is present at the death should make us see it as dramatic and tragic as any fight scene.


Sponsored Links
  #1422  
Old December 15th, 2007, 2:19 am
Pearl_Took's Avatar
Pearl_Took  Female.gif Pearl_Took is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 4469 days
Location: The Shire
Posts: 3,634
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
In my opinion, Snape understood his death was necessary, deserved and would serve a higher purpose than his remaining alive could. Thus he did not attempt to save himself, although he did put his hand to his throat to stave off the bleeding until Harry could get the memories.
Surely he thought he was dying in vain, poor bloke.

Because he had not been able to get to Harry in time, to give him the crucial info. He didn't realise Harry was there, did he?

Which kind of begs the question of why he just stood there in front of Voldemort and allowed himself to be a sitting duck ...

It was because his Author needed him to die!!

Jetty, there are lots of very cool theories in fandom regarding how Snape could have survived. Fawkes comes to him ( he'd been incredibly loyal to Dumbledore, after all) ... he had antivenin and Blood Replenishing Potion hidden in his robes (he was a clever and resourceful wizard, after all!) ...


__________________
  #1423  
Old December 15th, 2007, 7:28 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4699 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Quote:
posted by Pearl_Took
Because he had not been able to get to Harry in time, to give him the crucial info. He didn't realise Harry was there, did he?

Which kind of begs the question of why he just stood there in front of Voldemort and allowed himself to be a sitting duck ...

It was because his Author needed him to die!!
Sadly I think you are right. There must surely be other ways Snape could have handed over the information to Harry; Phineas's portrait that Hermione had with he could have passed on Dumbledore's message; but Jo intended Snape to die and die he did, without even lifting his wand to defend!


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #1424  
Old December 15th, 2007, 2:18 pm
horcrux_man  Male.gif horcrux_man is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4623 days
Location: USA
Posts: 59
Re: Severus Snape's Death

I kinda saw Snape's death coming. I figured that he would revolt againest Voldemort but it didnt really happen. Oh well, excellant book though.


__________________
New England Patriots are AWESOME!!

Join the ASA today and help prevent spoilers!.
  #1425  
Old December 15th, 2007, 6:46 pm
groundskeeper  Undisclosed.gif groundskeeper is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4576 days
Posts: 4
Re: Severus Snape's Death

i expected him to die so it didn't bother me, and the memories he provided harry we essential to understanding some things. the way he died was what i had a problem with, i had expected him to die in a battle with LV trying to protect harry. he didn't even put up a fight it was bogus. snape was a powerful wizard and could of given LV a bit of a fight it would have been a lot better this way


  #1426  
Old December 16th, 2007, 10:34 am
Jetty  Male.gif Jetty is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4894 days
Location: Moscow, Russia
Age: 29
Posts: 202
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Frankly, I don't believe in Snape's death. This idea was caused by his remembrances. Personally, I hate Snape in book 7, but he's still my favourite characters in HP series. Why? I suppose his remembrances were faked. The Snape, which we saw in his remembrances, wasn't similar to real Snape at all. And this fact suggested me an idea, that Snape and Dumbledore were conducting a much more active game with Potter and other people, which were involved in that conflict. And if they did it, they definitely would predicted further developments, including probable Snape's death by Nagini's bite. And we may find some proofs of the fact, that Snape had survived:

1) Dumbledore knew, that Voldemort desired to possess the Elder Wand. And apparently he had to assume that Voldemort would try to do it by Snape's murdering. And he also had to guess the Dark Lord wouldn't use the Elder wand, but he would use his snake. So I'm very amazed if Snape hadn't taken, say, antodote for snake's bite.
2) I don't understand, how did Nagini manage to kill and even attack Snape, taking into account her physical condition.
3) Like somebody discussed above, Arthur and also Harry Potter (two times) survived after Nagini's bite, and Harry even didn't need medical help. But Snape died almost immediatly after the bite.
4) There was a too strange coincidence: Harry and friends were at the place of the murdering just in the time of the murdering.
5) Yes, Snape was in strange pose and was similar to a dying man. But where was it said that he had died? Snape fully could pretend to be killed.
6) Portrait. JKR may say that Snape had abandoned his post as many times as she likes, but I still don't believe in it I don't think he had abandoned his post, he had just gone away (may be temporary). So elimination of portrait means Snape's survival.
7) No information about his funeral, dead body etc.

And, sure, Snape didn't have to die at all. I don't believe he worked for Dumbledore just for love and remembrance about Lili. I don't believe in his strong love for Lili at all. And it's not an intense reason to pass on a 'good' side.



Last edited by Jetty; December 16th, 2007 at 12:56 pm.
  #1427  
Old December 16th, 2007, 10:57 am
ecardina  Female.gif ecardina is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4487 days
Location: Scotland
Age: 27
Posts: 121
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Those who did survive Nagini's bite weren't bitten in the neck, where they? Snape basically would have drowned in his own blood if the fangs punctured his wind pipe. He had to try very hard to survive long enough to give Harry his memories to help him out.

And Dumbledore didn't get everything right. He thought he'd given the elder wand to Snape when infact it was Draco's. Voldemort believeing Snape was the owner of the elder wand, murdered him himself. No doubt Dumbledore expected the death of Severus Tobias Snape but never in fact told him this in fear that Severus may not preform the deed- though I still think Snape never believed he would survive the battle. He had to avenge Lily's death.

As for Snape surviving- just because it's the wizarding world doesn't mean that a simple antidote can be taken and everything will be alright. It doesn't work like that. He died and I don't believe he would have liked to linger on much longer. As for him being out of character, that was not true. We just got to see more of his character, that's all.


__________________
One of Rowena's
~~


Snape
"I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death — if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."
Image: http://hettie-young.deviantart.com/g...craps#/d2wqhyt
by me.
  #1428  
Old December 18th, 2007, 2:12 pm
Aisha  Female.gif Aisha is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4853 days
Age: 31
Posts: 62
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
In my opinion, Snape understood his death was necessary, deserved and would serve a higher purpose than his remaining alive could. Thus he did not attempt to save himself, although he did put his hand to his throat to stave off the bleeding until Harry could get the memories.
What on earth are you trying to say?? I'm sorry if I misunderstood you here you don't think he would have attempted to save himself if he could?



----------------
----------------


  #1429  
Old December 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Yoana's Avatar
Yoana  Female.gif Yoana is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 5138 days
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 37
Posts: 6,435
Re: Severus Snape's Death

What can make a man deserving of death?


  #1430  
Old December 18th, 2007, 2:34 pm
Liselle's Avatar
Liselle  Female.gif Liselle is offline
Knower of things
 
Joined: 6116 days
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3,565
Re: Severus Snape's Death

I don't believe that anyone is saying that Snape was deserving of death, I think that Snape understood that there was a very good chance that his death would be necessary


__________________
“Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it.”
  #1431  
Old December 18th, 2007, 2:44 pm
Yoana's Avatar
Yoana  Female.gif Yoana is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 5138 days
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 37
Posts: 6,435
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liselle View Post
I don't believe that anyone is saying that Snape was deserving of death
Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
In my opinion, Snape understood his death was necessary, deserved and would serve a higher purpose than his remaining alive could.
This is why I asked. How did he deserve to die?


  #1432  
Old December 18th, 2007, 2:59 pm
Liselle's Avatar
Liselle  Female.gif Liselle is offline
Knower of things
 
Joined: 6116 days
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3,565
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Surely wouldn't that be Snape's own possible interpretation or understanding? It's only a supposition.


__________________
“Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it.”
  #1433  
Old December 18th, 2007, 3:04 pm
Yoana's Avatar
Yoana  Female.gif Yoana is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 5138 days
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 37
Posts: 6,435
Re: Severus Snape's Death

I'm just interested to hear wickedwickedboy's elaboration on that quote.


  #1434  
Old December 18th, 2007, 4:15 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5182 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
What can make a man deserving of death?
This was totally my opinion of Snape's viewpoint. Snape understood that it was necessary, and would serve a higher purpose imo, because if he didn't believe that, I think he would have shouted out that he hadn't killed Dumbledore against the Elder Wizard's will, but that it had been planned and that he could therefore not be the master of the Elder Wand. Whether it would have worked or not is unknown, but Snape could have tried and he didn't (preferring to go with the plan of Voldemort believing himself to be the Master and invincible, when he would actually not be). This embodied what Sirius said: Somethings are worth dying for.

I believe Snape felt it was deserved because of his own words in POA. He said that if one arrogantly placed their trust in another (their life in another's hands), they were well served in facing the consequences, including death (POA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort, Brit. Ed, pg. 265). Snape had placed his trust Dumbledore and Dumbledore had betrayed that trust, by knowingly making it appear to Voldemort that Snape was the master of the Elder Wand, without telling Snape. Personally, I don't agree with this, but that is how Snape indicated he looked at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Surely he thought he was dying in vain, poor bloke.

Because he had not been able to get to Harry in time, to give him the crucial info. He didn't realise Harry was there, did he?
Imo, Snape didn't think he was dying in vain, even if he couldn't get Harry the memories. Snape knew that by saying nothing and allowing Voldemort to believe he was the master of the Elder Wand, Voldemort would be fooled into believing himself invincible by killing Snape. Voldemort would stop seeking the 'true master' of the Elder Wand and thus he could be killed once Harry (the horcrux) had died. Snape knew that Dumbledore's portrait could inform Harry that he was a horcrux if all else failed, imo.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; December 18th, 2007 at 4:48 pm.
  #1435  
Old December 18th, 2007, 5:18 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4699 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape's Death

I did not like Snape die for one. But most importantly I felt he should not have died. As I wrote in the LS threads, Jo, I feel made him the grey to Harry's white and Voldemort's black and redeemed him by his death, only because of her words that had Harry not been the BWL, Snape would not have bothered to turn.

But since he did, she made a hero out of him, but killed him for his redemption to be complete.

Snape was indeed a death eater who joined willingly and chose that way for himself. He turned because of Lily and went on to fight the death eaters for the rest of his life.

I did not want him to die because I felt he had already paid his dues time and again to the society he harmed for a while.

He worked for almost 16 years to undo the mistakes of perhaps four years or so of being a death eater. But sadly he died and he died without knowing if Harry would understand him through th memories he gave at the time of death.

Edit ::
Quote:
posted by wwb
Imo, Snape didn't think he was dying in vain, even if he couldn't get Harry the memories. Snape knew that by saying nothing and allowing Voldemort to believe he was the master of the Elder Wand, Voldemort would be fooled into believing himself invincible by killing Snape. Voldemort would stop seeking the 'true master' of the Elder Wand and thus he could be killed once Harry (the horcrux) had died. Snape knew that Dumbledore's portrait could inform Harry that he was a horcrux if all else failed, imo.
But Snape did not know about the Elder wand until he was almost at death's door, and once he saw Harry, I think he just let out the memories he wanted Harry to have and died. I really don't think he spared a thought to the Elder wand.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:

Last edited by The_Green_Woods; December 18th, 2007 at 5:22 pm.
  #1436  
Old December 18th, 2007, 5:33 pm
Pearl_Took's Avatar
Pearl_Took  Female.gif Pearl_Took is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 4469 days
Location: The Shire
Posts: 3,634
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I believe Snape felt it was deserved because of his own words in POA. He said that if one arrogantly placed their trust in another (their life in another's hands), they were well served in facing the consequences, including death (POA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort, Brit. Ed, pg. 265). Snape had placed his trust Dumbledore and Dumbledore had betrayed that trust, by knowingly making it appear to Voldemort that Snape was the master of the Elder Wand, without telling Snape. Personally, I don't agree with this, but that is how Snape indicated he looked at it.
This is a fascinating theory, but I don't quite see how you arrive at it. Snape doesn't know about all that stuff about the Elder Wand, does he?!

I don't know what I think about the Dumbledore betraying Snape theory either. I would really love to believe that Albus didn't do this to Severus, that he deliberately planned for Snape not to be master of the Wand, thus sealing Snape's death sentence, otherwise, I am just beginning to recover my opinion of Albus, and thinking he was capable of being so cold-blooded towards Severus would make my opinion plummet again.

Quote:
Imo, Snape didn't think he was dying in vain, even if he couldn't get Harry the memories. Snape knew that by saying nothing and allowing Voldemort to believe he was the master of the Elder Wand, Voldemort would be fooled into believing himself invincible by killing Snape. Voldemort would stop seeking the 'true master' of the Elder Wand and thus he could be killed once Harry (the horcrux) had died. Snape knew that Dumbledore's portrait could inform Harry that he was a horcrux if all else failed, imo.
Well, this all supposes that Snape knows all about the Elder Wand, and I don't think he did. Oh well, it's all supposition.

And the whole Elder Wand thing hurts my brain.

I would love to know what was going through poor Sev's mind the moments before Nagini struck. Waaaah. Rowling writes him as being, apparently, somewhat out of his depth. This really is unlike Snape, to be honest ...

But, while the fan theories about his possibly survival are lots of fun, I have no problem with her killing Snape off. I was not expecting Snape to survive Book 7, not in his incredibly dangerous role as double agent. Rowling made him the most tragic character in her wizarding saga, and in this reader's eyes the guy died a total hero.


__________________
  #1437  
Old December 18th, 2007, 6:00 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5182 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But Snape did not know about the Elder wand until he was almost at death's door, and once he saw Harry, I think he just let out the memories he wanted Harry to have and died. I really don't think he spared a thought to the Elder wand.
I agree that it is altogether possible Snape believed Voldemort and thought he actually was the master of the Elder Wand when he died. It is possible Snape did not know any of the lore behind the wand and didn't realize that a previous master had to be overcome, not just killed. I don't think that was the case though because Snape wanted to get to Harry - he asked Voldemort to let him go to the boy several times. I think if Snape believed himself to be the master of the wand, he'd of tried to take it from Voldemort with a disarming or summoning spell and held the Dark Lord off so that he could escape and get to Harry. Seeing as he knew Voldemort was going to kill him, it wouldn't have mattered that the Dark Lord would know Snape was loyal to Dumbledore at that point. That Snape died without trying to say or do anything, leads me to believe that Snape had worked out the truth. Voldemort even said to Snape: "Perhaps you already know it? You are a clever man, after all, Severus." (He was speaking of Snape knowing he was the master of the Elder Wand and thus must die.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
This is a fascinating theory, but I don't quite see how you arrive at it. Snape doesn't know about all that stuff about the Elder Wand, does he?!
Well I don't believe Snape knew about it until Voldemort told him, just before killing him. But at that point he knew.

Quote:
I don't know what I think about the Dumbledore betraying Snape theory either. I would really love to believe that Albus didn't do this to Severus, that he deliberately planned for Snape not to be master of the Wand, thus sealing Snape's death sentence, otherwise, I am just beginning to recover my opinion of Albus, and thinking he was capable of being so cold-blooded towards Severus would make my opinion plummet again.
I know what you mean and I agree it would be wrong of Dumbledore. Perhaps Dumbledore felt Snape would somehow survive, but I don't see how he could have thought that. Dumbledore knew Voldemort would seek the Elder Wand; he knew he was the last master; and he knew Voldemort would believe Snape had killed him and was the new master - all of which happened. I think Snape worked that out, he was very intelligent. The only thing Snape could not be sure of was that Dumbledore knew Voldemort would seek out the Elder Wand - but Snape was wise enough to know that the intelligent Dumbledore would have at least considered the possibility - especially following the graveyard fiasco (which Voldemort recounted to Snape in his speech before killing him - but Snape likely already knew how Harry had survived the graveyard because he was an Order member and they all knew).

Thus I don't think Snape died believing Voldemort had outwitted Dumbledore; I think he died having worked out the truth.


Quote:
And the whole Elder Wand thing hurts my brain.
Mine too.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; December 18th, 2007 at 7:00 pm.
  #1438  
Old December 18th, 2007, 11:13 pm
Morgoth's Avatar
Morgoth  Male.gif Morgoth is offline
Genius Loci
 
Joined: 6436 days
Location: Fons et Origo
Posts: 7,285
Re: Severus Snape's Death

Closed, pending version 2.


__________________
Brave New World
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 6:20 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.