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  #821  
Old June 17th, 2015, 1:04 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by ginger1 View Post
I have only read the first few books, and gave up with the television series ages ago, so my question is - as you seem surprised by the series ending - has it somehow overtaken the books?
In part. They have tidied up the plots a bit already: we just saw the termination of a major plot line in the books that is, as of the end of book 5 probably not completed. I write "probably": GRRM writes slightly diachronous story lines, and there is a claim at the end of one storyline that the major plot line we just saw ended was, in fact, ended.

Next season will be adapting Winds of Winter, which might be the first time a novel has been adapted before being published. (Actually, I suspect that is not true: I dimly recall another case, but I don't remember it all of a sudden!)

Viewers like you have been the exception. This season had the highest average ratings despite the fact that HBO has set it up so that people can watch it without appearing ton the ratings. The estimated total viewership showed yet another healthy bump, and the finale actually beat the opening episode. The audience marks are extremely high again (essentially tied with last year), although one worries that Jon Snow's death in the finale coupled with a very aggressive campaign asserting that, yes, he really is dead might actually have turned off a chunk of the audience.

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I've put off reading the books until the TV ends but apparently what happened to Shireen is yet to happen in the books.
That is correct. There are a few people who predicted that it would happen in the books, and it looks like they got it right! (I was ambivalent on the topic myself: I could see the foreshadowings, but I could also see different outcomes of those foreshadowings.)

There certainly is a contingent of book-readers with major egg-on-face now. The "Stannis is the real hero and the future winner of it all" camp was sort of like the "Neville is actually the chosen one" camp in HP world. (Remember those?) The Titanic went down less dramatically!


The big question is: is Jon really dead? The book ends in much the same way: Jon takes grave wounds, and that is where it ends. There have been a lot of fan conjectures, some sensible, some less so. Many people think that Melisandre is going to raise him from the dead, just as Thoros did with Berick in earlier seasons/books. Other people think that it will be more of a "healing" (which also happens in the books). And still others are convinced that Jon is going to "Warg" into Ghost, and spend the next book exploring the north and learning about the White Walker's plans. The first two are consistent with the books, although the first one is a little inconsistent with general literary goals as it seems that "raised" people are not fully themselves: as Jon is (along with Daenyrs) the #1 protagonist, it would be almost like having Harry Potter becoming "UnHarry" after Order of the Phoenix. The last one is not: the books suggest that only very practiced wargs (like Bran was starting to become) can do this sort of thing, with the information being provided as a setup for Bran becoming one with the trees (i.e., where we left him at the end of last year). Jon never really practices becoming a warg. And the books also state that even highly practiced wargs do not last long in an animal if they jump in after death: they linger for a few weeks and have a sort of permanent imprint, but the true consciousness fades.

The fear is that GRRM had a clause stating that the show could not divulge who Jon's mother is before the books do. When they started work on the show in 2008, it was assumed that the book series would be done now. However, because he is so painfully slow at writing, he still has not finished the 6th book. So, the show might be "copping out" and killing off Jon to avoid this stuff altogether.


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  #822  
Old June 17th, 2015, 2:18 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

I'm SO happy! Just found out that AT&T is having a free HBO weekend coming up! So I can catch up with GoT!

Any flaws with the season aside, I'm just appreciative that they're doing this again .


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  #823  
Old June 17th, 2015, 3:24 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Next season will be adapting Winds of Winter, which might be the first time a novel has been adapted before being published. (Actually, I suspect that is not true: I dimly recall another case, but I don't remember it all of a sudden!)
Although the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey was based on a previously published short-story the novel was written concurrently with the film and published later.

The novel and TV series of Neverwhere were also written and released concurrently.


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  #824  
Old June 17th, 2015, 7:55 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Has the author stated how many books there will be?

Here's an interesting story. A publisher in the US will release an adult colouring book in the autumn. There will be 45 original black and white illustrations for people to colour in. The subject is A song of Ice and Fire.

I suspect the only three colours needed will be black (night time) a good flesh pink, and red for all that blood ...



Last edited by ginger1; June 17th, 2015 at 8:56 am.
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  #825  
Old June 17th, 2015, 6:17 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Has the author stated how many books there will be?
Seven supposedly but the series was originally proposed to be a trilogy at most and his editor has said she wouldn't be surprised if it goes even longer.


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  #826  
Old June 18th, 2015, 4:45 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

I never heard that it was going to be a trilogy. I heard that it was originally supposed to be six but someplace in the writing of Storm and Feast he realized he was going to need more. Or maybe it was supposed to be five and that mess turned it into 6, and now it's seven with Winds forthcoming and Dream of Spring tentatively scheduled...who knows when.

Basically, the finale did four things.
Spoiler: show
It brought us almost up to speed with Arya (we see what the next part of her ordeal will be, but not its conclusion which has been written in the books). It finally has Sansa in a positive position and Theon remembering some of himself (although those are tiny victories). We're caught up with Jon though the question probably won't be ANSWERED until next season's premiere (though I suspect it will be an answer that annoys the large majority of the TV fandom). The blight that was Stannis Baratheon is gone. Hallelujah!! And we FINALLY see Cersei in a (somewhat) sympathetic light. Which is really odd and well nigh impossible.
This was the visceral moment they were looking for with Joffrey's death, but Joffrey was such a toxic character that the only real reaction was that his death was

1. too quick and

2. didn't involve enough pain. Kinda wish Arya had been around to script it.
Spoiler: show
Her kiss-off for Merran Trant was just about perfect.


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  #827  
Old June 30th, 2015, 12:37 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

I'd been listening to each audio book since last August or so and finished Dance just in time for the fifth season to kick off. I hadn't (and still haven't) watched any of the previous seasons and watched this one with a couple of show watchers/book non-readers ("Unsullied," a term I've seen used!). It came as a bit of a shock, knowing only that the TV show was wildly popular, that I knew so much more than my friends, who after a year of no GoT couldn't even remember the queen's name (or even if she were the queen or the mother). Perhaps that just emphasizes how casual of viewers my company is!

I watched the first six episodes this season and was disappointed. With Harry Potter, as you know, I'm a bit of a book purist - to a fault. But not so with ASoIaF: I listened to (not even read, which for a series of this magnitude means I missed quite a bit) each book quite casually. So my problem with the TV show isn't book-to-show adaptation, but rather the simplicity, "dumbing down," and "Hollywoodification" I perceived. The acting seemed subpar for the most part, the plotlines hurried and poorly developed, and the world and characters incompletely developed. Without knowledge of the books, I'd have been completely lost, so I came to sympathize with my "Unsullied" companions. I felt that the show reduced the complexity of Martin's world to battle, death, and nudity; sure, there was more to it, but it took a lot of focus and intent to glean plot and characterization. In short, the showrunners seemed to cater the adaptation to the lowest common denominator of people who tuned in more or less to see knights in armor fighting, killing, and, well... As such, it was hard for me to enjoy beyond the superficial show they seemed to be focusing on. I stopped watching (no TV/HBO access for several months now) right before Hardhome, so maybe I'll be happily surprised as I go back through.

Now, my big complaint for Martin's books is they read like a chronicle of history - it's hard to see his story and plot hidden amongst his constant world building. As such, from a storytelling/plot development perspective, I'd agree with Wimsey that the show is more successful at distilling Martin's complex (almost overly so) chronicle down to a digestible story that can be told in a TV show. I just feel that with the story distillation came a dilution of the characters and realism I was expecting from a show so popular.


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  #828  
Old September 24th, 2015, 4:43 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Wow, Thrones totally kicked *** in the Emmys! And as they have 2 or 3 more seasons to go, this clearly was not a "it's due" situation, either. Quite a few of the book purists are besides themselves: they had convinced themselves that "everybody" thought that this season was bad for all of the changes from the books! (Of course, the fact that one of the two books being adapted, A Feast for Crows, was absolutely awful meant that this was not going to be probable!)

It looks like they are well underway with doing the first part of Winds of Winter. At this point, it looks like there is almost no chance of Martin finishing the book before it is televised. So, we'll really not be able to judge the adaptation part: we don't know the plots or the basic story this time.


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  #829  
Old January 10th, 2016, 6:52 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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It looks like they are well underway with doing the first part of Winds of Winter. At this point, it looks like there is almost no chance of Martin finishing the book before it is televised. So, we'll really not be able to judge the adaptation part: we don't know the plots or the basic story this time.
So, now that this has been confirmed, does anybody even want to guess at what the story will be next season? We are all "unsullied" now!


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  #830  
Old January 12th, 2016, 4:04 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

One could guess at bits and pieces but as an overarching direction? I think I see who has to join forces with Dany's crew now that she actually has a small council (provided that all this character teasing actually leads somewhere). But no, I do not see how we're going to get there or what the endpoint would be once we do get there.


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  #831  
Old January 17th, 2016, 4:11 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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One could guess at bits and pieces but as an overarching direction? I think I see who has to join forces with Dany's crew now that she actually has a small council (provided that all this character teasing actually leads somewhere). But no, I do not see how we're going to get there or what the endpoint would be once we do get there.
I think that the one thing we can work out will happen this year is that the main characters will spend a bit of time trying to convince people that otherwise would kill, imprison or ignore him/her to follow him/her.

Daeny is now with the Dothraki, and as a widow, she is going to be sent back to their holy city for life. Of course, she's not going to let that happen, and she almost certainly will wind up getting the Dothraki to follow her instead. But that won't be easy.

Jon is now gravely wounded and labelled a traitor to the Night's Watch and the Realm for allowing the Wildlings through. He'll survive (no doubt because of Melisandre), but he'll be a man on the lam. Add to this that he's a deserter from the Night's Watch and he has a death sentence on him. And, of course, nobody is going to believe fairy tales about the White Walkers coming back.

Bran is now a tree god. Presumably he will be learning about the past and the present, and trying to communicate this information to Jon, Sansa, etc., through the trees. My bet is that he'll be the one to learn who Jon's mother (and father) really are. The trick? How do you make someone believe a voice in the wind is really you?

Arya is now blind. That probably won't last long, but the end-game here is perilous for her: she wants to become a Faceless Woman, but she wants to remain Arya Stark. Gaining their skills without submitting to their requirements will be the same sort of journey for her.

Tyrion now is running Meereen as a foreigner and as the proxy for a queen who was viewed by many as a conqueror, usurper and a liberal-no-gooder. Oh, and he's a dwarf, which never is a good thing to be. Keeping Meereen and Daeny's forces intact while waiting for her to return will be his parallel to what those 4 are doing. Oh, and do not be surprised if there is some dragon-bonding, too.

I do not know what the lesser characters will be doing, but Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran & Arya really are the Story themselves: they are the five primary protagonists. And it does shape up to be a story about the internal compromises needed to make allies and followers out of those that do not want to be allies or followers.


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  #832  
Old January 18th, 2016, 5:06 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

And Jaime is bringing his daughter's corpse back to King's Landing where there's an uproar. Yikes!


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Old March 6th, 2016, 6:44 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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And Jaime is bringing his daughter's corpse back to King's Landing where there's an uproar. Yikes!
Is there going to be an uproar at Myrcella's return? I know that there have been some still suggesting uproars in Kings Landing, but those suggested issues between the Lannisters and the Church.

Supposedly, Melisandre is going to do something that will involve awesome effects right away in the season. Gosh, I just have no idea what that possibly could be…..


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  #834  
Old March 8th, 2016, 10:35 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

It sort of blows that she might be even partially responsible for...ahem, stabilizing the cast in the season opener. Her level of malice, hubris, and ridiculousness rivals Cersei or Oberyn's paramour at this point.

I guess I meant uproar in the corridors of power/the royal court.


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  #835  
Old March 9th, 2016, 4:54 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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It sort of blows that she might be even partially responsible for...ahem, stabilizing the cast in the season opener. Her level of malice, hubris, and ridiculousness rivals Cersei or Oberyn's paramour at this point.
Well, Melisandre really has considerably less hubris than Cersei: after all, her god shows her things that come true, and it grants her real powers. For all her talk, Melisandre really is not a believer: she does not have blind faith in R'hllor, but instead she has expectations of R'hllor based on past experience.

Where I suspect that they are going with this (both on the show and in the book) is that it turns out that R'hllor has been trying to get Melisandre to Jon all along for whatever nefarious reasons. What I also suspect is that, in the end, we'll realize that R'hllor is much worse news than the White Walkers ever are.

And on that note….. HBO finally issued a trailer today! It looks pretty cool. And the weirdest part is: I have almost no idea what most of the scenes might be. Jon's corpse figures prominently in it. There is a (probable) nice foreshadowing in the trailer: Mel seems to be about to do her annual "uncloaking" and they cut to someone standing over Jon's body. I expect that we'll see her do a figurative uncloaking as well as a literal one.


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  #836  
Old March 16th, 2016, 11:28 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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I think that the one thing we can work out will happen this year is that the main characters will spend a bit of time trying to convince people that otherwise would kill, imprison or ignore him/her to follow him/her.

[...]

I do not know what the lesser characters will be doing, but Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran & Arya really are the Story themselves: they are the five primary protagonists. And it does shape up to be a story about the internal compromises needed to make allies and followers out of those that do not want to be allies or followers.
I agree with this. So far we've seen these characters advance with their supporting cast largely through commands/brute force/following their own wants, and much of that line of thinking has failed in practice. I'd say the sorts of compromises ahead have been building for the past several books/seasons and you're right in that they'll come to a head this season. By making those internal sacrifices, I think the characters will move largely from preparation to action, which will make this season the turning point to where the characters' paths are set for the "grand finale," whatever that may be.


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  #837  
Old March 21st, 2016, 9:34 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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I agree with this. So far we've seen these characters advance with their supporting cast largely through commands/brute force/following their own wants, and much of that line of thinking has failed in practice. I'd say the sorts of compromises ahead have been building for the past several books/seasons and you're right in that they'll come to a head this season. By making those internal sacrifices, I think the characters will move largely from preparation to action, which will make this season the turning point to where the characters' paths are set for the "grand finale," whatever that may be.
At this point, I think that it's pretty clear that the "over-arching" story is about Damned If You Do, Damned If You Do Not Dilemmas and their aftermaths. To that end, I would bet that the Grand Finale is going to be Jon, Daenyrs and Tyrion (and probably Arya & Bran, too) trying to come up with solutions that spread the suffering around evenly. And the they get to live unhappily ever after…..

If anything, then I think that it might be closest to Babylon 5 if we want to compare it to existing stories of this general nature.


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  #838  
Old March 24th, 2016, 4:44 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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And on that note….. HBO finally issued a trailer today! It looks pretty cool. And the weirdest part is: I have almost no idea what most of the scenes might be. Jon's corpse figures prominently in it. There is a (probable) nice foreshadowing in the trailer: Mel seems to be about to do her annual "uncloaking" and they cut to someone standing over Jon's body. I expect that we'll see her do a figurative uncloaking as well as a literal one.
There are at least a couple of scene breakdowns online. One is on Winteriscoming.net and there's another on Watchersonthewall.com. I don't think I can provide links because the breakdowns are not particularly FF.

A few things off the top of my head though:

The dunking is apparently of Euron.
The guy with the two swords - general consensus is that it's Ser Arthur Dayne and the Tower of Joy.
The guys at the top of the hill who unsheathe their swords right after Cersei chooses violence are apparently Young Ned and friends. Landscape appears to be same as the guy with two swords.

(Assumption is that Tower of Joy will be revealed through Bran)


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  #839  
Old March 25th, 2016, 11:28 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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There are at least a couple of scene breakdowns online. One is on Winteriscoming.net and there's another on Watchersonthewall.com. I don't think I can provide links because the breakdowns are not particularly FF.

A few things off the top of my head though:

The dunking is apparently of Euron.
The guy with the two swords - general consensus is that it's Ser Arthur Dayne and the Tower of Joy.
The guys at the top of the hill who unsheathe their swords right after Cersei chooses violence are apparently Young Ned and friends. Landscape appears to be same as the guy with two swords.

(Assumption is that Tower of Joy will be revealed through Bran)
Those seem like sensible assumptions. I am curious as to whether they are going to keep Jon's parentage the same as GRRM presumably is going to reveal in the books: well, if he ever manages to finish the next one! HBO is unhappy that Winter is not out yet: and that strikes me as odd because, really, why should they care? The only thing of which I can think is that GRRM got a clause stating that certain things had to be revealed in the books first. As such, I am wondering if Jon will, say, turn out to be Aegon Targaryen, i.e., Oberyn's supposedly dead nephew and proper heir to the Kingdom over Daenrys by rules of primogeniture. And, yes, I know that Jon is not Aegon in the books: but the show is not including Aegon the way that the book is, so that frees up the possibility.

They are doing a good job of keeping their cards close to their chest where Jon is concerned: I think that most of the hardcore fans are certain he's coming back, but I think that Joe and Jane Viewer will be surprised.

I am really curious as to what the story is this year. My best guess right now is that it's going to be about the moral compromises necessary to get people to line up behind you. However, that's only a guess.

By the way, I post some on Watchers, too. It's generally a pretty good group, but one thing that SoI&F fans demonstrate is that coming up with outlandish conjectures with no support in the books or show/movies and/or critiquing the movie/show based on huge misunderstandings of the books is NOT a unique trait of Harry Potter fans!


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Old April 26th, 2016, 6:04 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Those seem like sensible assumptions. I am curious as to whether they are going to keep Jon's parentage the same as GRRM presumably is going to reveal in the books: well, if he ever manages to finish the next one! HBO is unhappy that Winter is not out yet: and that strikes me as odd because, really, why should they care? The only thing of which I can think is that GRRM got a clause stating that certain things had to be revealed in the books first. As such, I am wondering if Jon will, say, turn out to be Aegon Targaryen, i.e., Oberyn's supposedly dead nephew and proper heir to the Kingdom over Daenrys by rules of primogeniture. And, yes, I know that Jon is not Aegon in the books: but the show is not including Aegon the way that the book is, so that frees up the possibility.
That would go over well with the book fans! But as you say, the viewership is much broader than that and I'd guess those strongly concerned about Jon's parentage are readers and TV fans who have dug more deeply. I don't know why Joe and Jane should really be obsessed with Jon's parentage at this point, as it hasn't been a blatantly recurring subject in the show, to my knowledge (which is limited, having only watched half of last season after finishing the books - finally).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimsey
By the way, I post some on Watchers, too. It's generally a pretty good group, but one thing that SoI&F fans demonstrate is that coming up with outlandish conjectures with no support in the books or show/movies and/or critiquing the movie/show based on huge misunderstandings of the books is NOT a unique trait of Harry Potter fans!
Always refreshing to see! I expect book-centric expectations of the show are also the norm!

The premiere of the new season caught me off guard. I'd been distracted these past couple of months, so it was nice to hop back on the web and see Game of Thrones coverage on most media outlets. I'm clearly not a devout fan - partly because I only had very limited HBO access for half of last season - and haven't even watched this new episode yet. I'll come back if I ever do watch it, but it seems the Dorne storyline is off to a dramatic start.


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