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  #721  
Old April 14th, 2014, 3:34 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
Also, I don't think that we need spoilers for shown episodes, do we? They've already been spoiled by virtue of having been shown. If you know of things coming up in future episodes (either because you've read the books or because you have heard/read things: although they seem to be very good about keeping secrets), then use the spoilers!
A followers of Stephen King were bent out of shape when he did a brilliant tweet about Joffrey's fate. His response was very much like yours.

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Originally Posted by Stephen King ‏@StephenKing
Come on, guys, it's been in the books for 15 years or so, and the episode ran tonight.
Followed by:
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Another spoiler: Romeo and Juliet die in Act 5.
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Originally Posted by Wimsey
I do like the way that they are making Arya almost as kick-*** as Daenerys:
My fave character. Reminds me of Harriet in The Little Friend.


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  #722  
Old April 15th, 2014, 1:53 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Fawkesfan1 View Post
As for Sansa, I feel for her too. But she needs to stop behaving the way she has been. It isn't good for her or anyone she cares for.
I 100% agree! the sulking isn't helping anyone. Especially not her. And that's where her maturity is really lacking. Instead of trying to find some good in the situation, she just makes it worse on herself.



And just gotta say after sunday's episode, finally someone got what they deserved... too bad the wrong person got blamed for it such is the twistedness that is Game of Thrones though i guess.


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  #723  
Old April 15th, 2014, 6:59 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Spacecadet View Post
I 100% agree! the sulking isn't helping anyone. Especially not her. And that's where her maturity is really lacking. Instead of trying to find some good in the situation, she just makes it worse on herself.



And just gotta say after sunday's episode, finally someone got what they deserved... too bad the wrong person got blamed for it such is the twistedness that is Game of Thrones though i guess.
Definitely. That isn't going to help her at all or anyone.

Dang it... , it sucks not having HBO anymore . Now onto 11 more months of waiting.


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  #724  
Old April 16th, 2014, 9:22 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Fawkesfan1 View Post
As for Sansa, I feel for her too. But she needs to stop behaving the way she has been. It isn't good for her or anyone she cares for.
Everyone she cares for is dead or missing. What should she do that would be good for them at this point?


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I 100% agree! the sulking isn't helping anyone. Especially not her. And that's where her maturity is really lacking. Instead of trying to find some good in the situation, she just makes it worse on herself.
Grieving over your mother and brother's recent murder is not "sulking". Not to mention her recently dead father, the fact that the rest of her family is missing and presumed dead, and the fact that she's being kept prisoner by the family who orchestrated her family's murder. There's really not much she could do to better her situation at this point without help. She's not acting out or doing anything inappropriate enough to get herself in any sort of serious trouble.

What good do you see in her situation?


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  #725  
Old April 16th, 2014, 1:31 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
Grieving over your mother and brother's recent murder is not "sulking". Not to mention her recently dead father, the fact that the rest of her family is missing and presumed dead, and the fact that she's being kept prisoner by the family who orchestrated her family's murder. There's really not much she could do to better her situation at this point without help. She's not acting out or doing anything inappropriate enough to get herself in any sort of serious trouble.

What good do you see in her situation?
I'm not saying her situation is fantastic, however it has improved since she came to kings landing. I know being forced to marry Tyrion was not on her to-do list, however he is trying really hard to be respectful of her and help and she's ignoring him completely. That is what I'm finding immature. No doubt she's upset about the loss of her family and rightfully so, but there are people trying to help her and she is just pushing them away.


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  #726  
Old April 16th, 2014, 5:15 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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I'm not saying her situation is fantastic, however it has improved since she came to kings landing.
No it hasn't. When she arrived at King's Landing her family was still alive. To us the red wedding was last year, but to her it was extremely recently.

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I know being forced to marry Tyrion was not on her to-do list, however he is trying really hard to be respectful of her and help and she's ignoring him completely. That is what I'm finding immature. No doubt she's upset about the loss of her family and rightfully so, but there are people trying to help her and she is just pushing them away.
It's not immature to not want to talk to anyone while coping with something like this (and even if you think it is - she's still 14). I don't blame her for wanting to be left alone. Tyrion gets it. There's nothing anyone can say to her to make her feel better - Tyrion knows this too. Everyone at King's Landing is an enemy - she knows she can't trust anyone. It's very dangerous for her to really open up about it because she might be labelled a traitor as well. She's supposed to be on the Lannisters' side. We might trust Tyrion, but you can't really blame her for not doing so. She can't get into his head.


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  #727  
Old April 16th, 2014, 11:55 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Spacecadet View Post
And just gotta say after sunday's episode, finally someone got what they deserved... too bad the wrong person got blamed for it such is the twistedness that is Game of Thrones though i guess.
I haven't read the books, but I'm thinking the blame might go around and/or be re-evaluated in subsequent episodes. It seemed to me like Circe needed a scapegoat in the heat of the moment, and blamed the most obvious person. I'm anxious to find out who really did it.


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  #728  
Old April 17th, 2014, 1:17 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan View Post
I haven't read the books, but I'm thinking the blame might go around and/or be re-evaluated in subsequent episodes. It seemed to me like Circe needed a scapegoat in the heat of the moment, and blamed the most obvious person. I'm anxious to find out who really did it.
I havent read them either, but I'm making an educated guess. And I agree I think more than one person will be blamed for this before the real culprit is revealed. Circe definitely needed someone to blame in the moment.


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  #729  
Old April 17th, 2014, 5:31 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
You probably missed it because it's separated from the main fiction section: it took me a long time to find it.
That's unfortunate, as the ASoIaF thread is linked in the opening post of this very thread.


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I 100% agree! the sulking isn't helping anyone. Especially not her. And that's where her maturity is really lacking. Instead of trying to find some good in the situation, she just makes it worse on herself.
Of course her maturity is lacking. She is a fifteen-year-old girl (twelve to thirteen in the books) who loses one family member after the other. Her parents let her live in a dream world of chivalry and songs, so it's not surprising that Sansa cannot quite cope with being orphaned, physically and mentally abused by her fiancé, the crown prince-turned-king, and then married off to his considerably older uncle who is very much the opposite of what she dreamt of in a husband. Tyrion may be an improvement to Joffrey but he's a Lannister, he's a dwarf, he's known for overindulging in wine and frequenting brothels. I cannot blame Sansa for not embracing the situation.


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  #730  
Old April 18th, 2014, 2:56 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Of course her maturity is lacking. She is a fifteen-year-old girl (twelve to thirteen in the books) who loses one family member after the other. Her parents let her live in a dream world of chivalry and songs, so it's not surprising that Sansa cannot quite cope with being orphaned, physically and mentally abused by her fiancé, the crown prince-turned-king, and then married off to his considerably older uncle who is very much the opposite of what she dreamt of in a husband.
To be fair, most adults would have a problem coping with all of that as well as Sansa has. Her young age just makes things a lot more impressive.


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  #731  
Old April 18th, 2014, 3:29 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
Grieving over your mother and brother's recent murder is not "sulking". Not to mention her recently dead father, the fact that the rest of her family is missing and presumed dead, and the fact that she's being kept prisoner by the family who orchestrated her family's murder.
However, she refuse several offers from Ned to return to Winterfell before things went irreparably pear-shaped.


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  #732  
Old April 18th, 2014, 10:14 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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However, she refuse several offers from Ned to return to Winterfell before things went irreparably pear-shaped.
I can't blame her for not realistically assessing the situation. Not that the Lord of Winterfell did.


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  #733  
Old April 18th, 2014, 11:25 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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However, she refuse several offers from Ned to return to Winterfell before things went irreparably pear-shaped.
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said above (that she's miserable and having a hard time coping because she's been through so many terrible things). Blaming someone for the death of their family and for their physical and emotional abuse makes no sense at all to me. It's a huge reach to assume it was obvious this was going to happen. Most readers didn't see the red wedding coming after all, and they get way more POVs than Sansa!

I hope if you really do blame Sansa, you're at least blaming Ned, Joffrey, Cersei, Walder, and Tywin a lot more.


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  #734  
Old April 19th, 2014, 4:12 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Hi all! Interesting conversation.

On the question of Sansa...

I really did not like the character much in the first book before the tragedy struck. I loved her chapters because she was so hilariously out of touch with reality, but I was a bit contemptuous of her and put some of the blame on her for what happened to her father. (I don't recall if the show really dealt with this, but in the book she basically runs to Cersei and tells her Ned's plans for whisking his daughters out of King's Landing).

But that was a long time ago. I have since grown fond of Sansa. Her suffering has humanized her. She is no longer the "little bird" that the Hound mocked.

The turns the Sansa plot has taken have also caused me to go back and re-evaluate her earlier character presentation and my earlier attitude towards her. The fact is, I just relate more to Arya and not much to Sansa, and that probably had a lot to do with my earlier attitude towards the older daughter. But I no longer think it's possible to lay too much blame on Sansa for running to Cersei about her father. She was just a child, thrust into the middle of adult situations that the songs, her mother, and her septa did not prepare her for.

She had been taught that marrying a prince would be the ideal outcome for a highborn girl like her, and even though we can see right through Joffrey, she held out the delusional hope that he was as honorable as he was handsome. Yes, it's easy to say that she should have known better after how Joffrey behaved in the Riverlands, but her idealized notions have been so strongly embedded that she has a hard time putting them aside. Also, remember - she grew up in Winterfell, not King's Landing. Her example of chivalry and honor is her father. She has grown up with a living example of how a lord "should" behave. It takes the death of her father and Joffrey's horrifying treatment to disabuse her of her idealized notions, but it's hard to blame her for actually having those ideas.

Ideally, yes, I would love it if Sansa at least somewhat reciprocated Tyrion's attempt at kindness towards her. But I can hardly fault her for feeling trapped, imprisoned, forced into a life that she never expected and was not at all prepared for.

In other words, I basically agree with DeliciousMoon, Moriath, and other posters who have defended Sansa on this thread.


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  #735  
Old April 20th, 2014, 1:51 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said above (that she's miserable and having a hard time coping because she's been through so many terrible things). Blaming someone for the death of their family and for their physical and emotional abuse makes no sense at all to me. It's a huge reach to assume it was obvious this was going to happen.
I didn't blame her for the death of her family but she is complicit in her current situation because she ignored warnings and refused the opportunity to leave Kings Landing when it was still an option.


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  #736  
Old April 20th, 2014, 8:59 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
In other words, I basically agree with DeliciousMoon, Moriath, and other posters who have defended Sansa on this thread.
Glad to have the support!

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I didn't blame her for the death of her family but she is complicit in her current situation because she ignored warnings and refused the opportunity to leave Kings Landing when it was still an option.
I'm sorry, I still don't see how you're not blaming her for her current situation. She really didn't have as many obvious warnings as you think, especially given the way Ned raised her. Ned didn't have to spill the beans that he knew about the incest to Cersei. Or have done anything other than telling Cersei first that he knew. And I still don't even blame Ned for that because I'm certain he didn't think he would be beheaded and leave his daughters stranded for doing that.


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  #737  
Old April 20th, 2014, 11:41 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
She really didn't have as many obvious warnings as you think, especially given the way Ned raised her.
We must be watching different versions.

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Ned didn't have to spill the beans that he knew about the incest to Cersei. Or have done anything other than telling Cersei first that he knew. And I still don't even blame Ned for that because I'm certain he didn't think he would be beheaded and leave his daughters stranded for doing that.
I can't see how you're not blaming Ned for his fate.

If, as you said, he didn't have to "spill the beans", you are implying that he could have avoided his fate by staying quiet.

But Ned's duties as Hand didn't extend to protecting Sersei. He was sworn to protect and act in the best interests of the King and the kingdom.

That said, not even Sersei saw how monstrous Jofrey would be. Her plan, as I saw it, was to rule from the position of regent with Jofrey as a pliant front.


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  #738  
Old April 21st, 2014, 9:41 pm
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Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
We must be watching different versions.
I doubt it. I just think you're expecting way too much from a 13 year old girl who only has her own limited point of view to dissect.

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I can't see how you're not blaming Ned for his fate.
I don't because I think Cersei would have had the upper hand no matter what, given how many people were against Ned and what he wanted to accomplish anyway. He did all the right things, but he ended up dead because the people around him are powerful and don't want him around. I just find it odd that people blame Sansa before Ned, who is actually an adult with some (though limited) power - even though victim blaming is ridiculous no matter what.

Quote:
If, as you said, he didn't have to "spill the beans", you are implying that he could have avoided his fate by staying quiet.
I doubt he could have. Again, why put the fault on Sansa when there were clearly other people involved that had more power? Sansa at no point is running the show.

Quote:
But Ned's duties as Hand didn't extend to protecting Sersei. He was sworn to protect and act in the best interests of the King and the kingdom.
Yeah, but you can't blame him for not wanting to see Cersei and her children murdered.


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  #739  
Old April 23rd, 2014, 2:01 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

People blame Sansa because she tattled on Ned to Cersei. It is one thing to be naïve, or in her case deliberately ignorant, but she deliberately went against her father's wishes. She, as a the daughter of the hand, thought that she knew better than her father what was going on in King's Landing. This after all the disdain she shows to her family and the way that Joffrey attacked her own sister and an unarmed boy. This is because Sansa was selfish. Then to top it all off beg Ned to give up his honor by announcing himself a traitor. The fact that Ned did this for her is highly indicative of how she was raised. He knew that one way or the other the Lannisters were going to have his head. He shouldn't have demeaned himself for the sake of Sansa's naivety.


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Old April 29th, 2014, 1:29 am
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Re: A Game of Thrones

Well, well, well: for all we worry about stuff from the books spoiling the TV show, we finally have something substantial from the TV show that spoils the books! Whether Craster's sons were actually being turned into White Walkers is (now was?) something that Westrosians had been debating for, well, decades now. (1.5 of them or so.) There are a couple of lines in the books suggesting that, but people who didn't like the idea considered the sources untrustworthy. Well, I guess that we'll just have to avoid posting this info on the book thread!

(Note: yes, of course I realize that the book fans who didn't like the idea will still claim that the books won't do that; and when the books do do that, then they'll claim that Martin changed his mind because of the TV show!)

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People blame Sansa because she tattled on Ned to Cersei. It is one thing to be naïve, or in her case deliberately ignorant, but she deliberately went against her father's wishes. She, as a the daughter of the hand, thought that she knew better than her father what was going on in King's Landing.
heh, saying that Sansa "thought" she knew better than her father is giving Sansa too much credit: she believed that she knew better because, well, that's the way it is in fairy tales, and Sansa believes the fairy tales.

In many ways, this is a critical theme in Martin's works, and one that the TV show has done a good job of communicating. Martin's stories focus on conflicts: Value A says do X, Value B says do NOT do X. J.R.R. Tolkien declared that the "truths" were in the fairy tales: G.R.R. Martin is declaring that the fairy tales actually are all lies. Sansa is one of his chief tools for doing this: she completely misses the real meanings of the fairy tales, and her reliance on the morals to the story bring her and others to great harm.
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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
The fact that Ned did this for her is highly indicative of how she was raised. He knew that one way or the other the Lannisters were going to have his head. He shouldn't have demeaned himself for the sake of Sansa's naivety.
It is more probable that the blame here lies with Catelyn, not Eddard. However, that really is more of a discussion for the book thread: the TV show developed Catelyn a little bit differently, as she is a bit more "prissy" and "shrewish" in the books. (It might be better to write that the TV show accelerated Catelyn's dynamic development: she winds up the person that she is in the TV show.)

Moreover, it's tough to lay it all on upbringing when the same two parents yield Arya, who is the antithesis of Sansa.
Spoiler: show
In the books, it's made much more clear that Ned dotes on Arya a lot more because she looks and acts so much like his sister, Lyanna; Catelyn, on the other hand, despairs of Arya ever amounting to anything because Arya is not a proper little lady and, gasp!… Arya doesn't look like she'll be as pretty as Sansa, which at one point Catelyn thinks to herself is all that really matters for a woman.
One key that the TV show communicates is that Arya actually knows history, not the fairy tales: in particular, she (like intelligent young women in the real world) is strongly drawn to the strong female of history. In the book,
Spoiler: show
the naming of her dire wolf is used to introduce this, as Nymeria was a great warrior queen who's impact was still felt in place like Dorne (she's why you cannot find many ships there!)
; in the TV show, this comes out strongly in her dialogs with Tywin Lannister, where she is quicker to remember the names of Aegon's two queens (and sisters!) than is Tywin. Regardless, at some point the difference is between Arya and Sansa: Arya simply has mental tools that Sansa lacks. I've been impressed by how well the TV show has communicated this: Martin gets to do it by simply writing their thoughts (which are usually self-centered and vacuous for Sansa, but empathetic and clever for Arya), but the show has done that well through other means. I particularly liked how they are using Arya's interactions with the Hound here: Arya is ethically offended by the Hound's action when he robs the farmer, which is a cognitive reaction, whereas Sansa tends to be morally offended when yet another fairy tale is shattered, which is a non-cognitive reaction.

Something worth paying attention to are the strong parallelisms that the show (and Martin) set up between Daenerys and Arya. This week's episode continued to do that, with Daenerys wielding a firm hand of justice on the slavers. The traditional moralities of aristocrats would have been all-too-easy here: it's a great big "old boys" club, where abuses of the "small folk" might be criticized, but never truly made a grounds for punishment. What Daeny does is essentially the same as what Arya does to the torturer: both are cramming the sword slowly into the enemy while reminding them of their crime. I am quite interested in seeing where this goes in the end!

As for other details, I have somewhat mixed feelings about Osgilliath, I mean, Craster's place. To an extent, I can see the necessity: this part of the book is Bran & Co. walking through snow, snow, oh look a tree, snow, snow, man we are hungry, snow, snow… did I mention the snow? Also, it occurs to me that I have no memory of what was supposed to have happened to the mutineers! (
Spoiler: show
In the book, Jon does not get back in time for us to seen any of this discussion. However, he's the main protagonist here, and this does a good job of setting him up as Mormant's successor
) However, on the whole, I cannot criticize it too strongly simply because I cannot think of a better alternative: the book's narrative would have made lousy TV.

And, of course, the stuff with Baelish was tantalizing. We get more on Olenna that we did from the books (neither she nor Maergary are POV characters there, which is a shame as it is clear that Olenna tutored her granddaughter well for the Game), and if I recall, didn't the book state that she was initially engaged to Duncan Targaryean? I'm dying to see if the TV show lets anything slip on what Baelish's real end-game is. (Some things are starting to slip, in a creepy way, shall we say….)


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Last edited by Wimsey; April 29th, 2014 at 5:14 am.
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a game of thrones, hbo


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