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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #61  
Old July 18th, 2008, 12:45 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

What Lily felt about James has nothing to do with how she felt about Snape. Snape was a friend not a boyfriend. She wasn't exactly dating Snape at the time.

However, Sirius told Harry that Lily was attracted to James in OotP. And JKR has told us as well. And if you look carefully at SWM you can see that there was an element of flirting between James and Lily.


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  #62  
Old July 18th, 2008, 12:48 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
The friendship broke apart because of Snape's DE friends, his bigotry, his interest in the Dark Arts, and his desire to join Voldemort.
I don't think Snape had the entire blame. I do believe it was a two-way street, that breakup, and I also think that circumstances played a huge role too. I find it unfair to dump all the blame on Snape only.


  #63  
Old July 18th, 2008, 1:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
The friendship broke apart because of Snape's DE friends, his bigotry, his interest in the Dark Arts, and his desire to join Voldemort.
I see the situation as much more complicated.

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
However, Sirius told Harry that Lily was attracted to James in OotP.
He didn't. The only thing he said was that Lily didn't hate James.

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I don't think Snape had the entire blame. I do believe it was a two-way street, that breakup, and I also think that circumstances played a huge role too. I find it unfair to dump all the blame on Snape only.
I agree completely.


  #64  
Old July 18th, 2008, 1:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I find it unfair to dump all the blame on Snape only.
He was practicing the Dark Arts, espousing bigoted beliefs, hanging out with future DEs, aspiring to join Voldemort. Lily was not at fault here. What was surprising was that she hadn't given up on him sooner. Even without SWM, they would have stopped being friends because everything he was doing was contrary to her core beliefs.
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Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
He didn't. The only thing he said was that Lily didn't hate James.
It was there in his tone. Besides JKR has told us as much.


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  #65  
Old July 18th, 2008, 1:15 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Pearl_Took and Raelis have raised points and I'll try to say why exactly I feel the way I do, which BTW id only based on canon; perhaps not the exact words, but the implication, the time limit on their friendship and Lily's character as I understood it. Here goes.

Of course the entire post is my opinion only.

1) Lily and Snape were introduced to one another when they were about 9 or 10. And from that time until the werewolf incident, they were friends. Were they best friends. I think so, because in that memory, Snape is asking her rather angrily or perhaps jealously that he thought they were "best friends". And she agreed that they were best friends indeed. So, while they certainly were not best friends when she does reiterate that they are, I felt it was apparent that they were best friends, before.

I concluded from the book itself because of this statement, that they were best friends indeed, until the friendship starting breaking some time before we saw the memeory whoich happened after the werewolf incident. Lily ended the friendship citing certain reasons, but I also feel from the SWM and the werewolf incident, that there were other reasons too for that break up, that had nothing to do with the reasons stated openly on page, but are still implied in the books IMO.

2) In the werewolf incident Snape was silly. He trusted a man who was his enemy and went down the tunnel. That makes him all kinds of foolish and silly IMO.

But that's for Snape. Lily was his friend, let me leave the "best" . Even as a friend, why even as a casual acquaintance she, I feel should have shown some concern at least for Snape.

He had gone into the tunnel and he could have been killed or bitten, both horrible prospects. If my friend had escaped narrowly from a great danger even if it was his own making, I know how I would react; that would nothing like Lily did IMO.

I would fall over my friend, ask him how he was and then I would give the shouting of a lifetime and tell him, he almost deserved to be bitten for following the words of an enemy of all people and demand a promise from him that he would use the brains he had been given never be so foolish ever again. In short I would be worried and frantic for my friend, even though he was silly enough to follow the words of a boy who was his enemy.

Even if he was not my best friend, I would still be concerned first and then tell him to be careful in the future.

Lily on the contrary tells Snape he should be grateful and that he was very ungrateful... when I first read it, I was like ungrateful for what? For living???? was what went through my mind and I am afraid I was not very charitable towards her.

Even now that memory reflects Lily in a very poor light I feel. While many posters feel that Snape guessed about the werewolf and he lived, so where's the fuss, I somehow feel differently.

In that incident Sirius was culpable, Snape was foolish and Lily uncaring and rather callous IMO. None of them really came off very well, but one thing was very clear; Lily was not a friend in that memory.

3) The SWM is where they broke off. Lily by that time had moved so far away from Snape that Snape was sitting all by himself and Lily had made other friends, presumably Mary McDonald and others. But none of them were best friends; that I am certain of because Sirius and Remus, and Lily in her letter to Sirius (all that we have of Lily) never speak of a "best" friend; they never speak of a friend even. So Mary McDonald and other girls were probably those Lily hung around during term time in her free time, but otherwise they did not and probably could not take Snape's place IMO.

While Lily died early and so did James, Sirius and Remus were very much alive and we hear nothing about a best friend or friends of Lily who was dear to her.

Lily broke off from Snape, but his place IMO was never filled. We don't see that in canon.

4) The reason I feel Lily broke off with Snape when she did was to a very large extent because she fell in love with James, and Snape's friendship with the DEs.

Lily I think fell in love with James (and I do believe it was love not attraction or infatuation); I think she fought it, and her very conflicted feelings continued until she probably gave in and went out with James.

The werewolf incident is Lily appreciating James until Snape called her on it. Then she backed off, calling James and arrogant toerag. Lily's feelings came out in the werewolf incident, something Snape also noticed and was terribly jealous, but he also believed her when she called James names and went away; but I think their friendship continued to form huge cracks and break at all places and in the SWM, it was only a formality I felt; it was not a fight, trashing out issues and then ending the friendship, but it was like a dying man who finally breathed his last, much to the relief of one person and much to the dismay of the other.

From sometime in fifth year (I suspect the time of the werewolf incident; we saw the memory after the werewolf incident had happened) Lily started seeing James in a different way; I think from then on she also started seeing Snape in a different way as well. I do think she chose, between her love and her friendship and I also think Snape made it easy for her to choose by being friendly with Avery and Mulciber IMO.

5) When Lily was 9 or so, she became friends with Snape. He was her source of everything magic. He told her about dementors, he told her about Azkaban and he told her about the Wizarding World. He may have also shown his mother's books to her and they may have read together.

Snape did bite off the word "muggle" when speaking about Petunia, but that could be because Lily was very worried about being accepted in the WW, because she did not belong to a Wizarding family, She asks Snape that, we saw and Snape also assures her after a very slight hesitation that blood did not matter.

But I also think Snape was too young to hide the fascination he had for the dark arts. I also think he would have told Lily everything he knew and thought grand about magic, which IMO also included the dark arts. We see Snape telling Lily that she would do good to be sorted into Slytherin. That was because Snape felt Slytherin to be the best and so advocated it. In the same way, I think Snape would have also told Lily about the different forms of magic and the ones that enthralled him the most. he was too young to hide such things from her for one, and secondly, he had no reason to, unlike the muggle comment, which may have worried her.

Talking about magic was naturally different and I don't think Snape held back, because there was no reason to; no one told her or him that this was good magic and this was not. When Lily was sorted into Gryffindor, within a term or two, she would have know about the evilness of Slytherin, dark arts and everything.

Lily was still friends with Snape is proof in my eyes that she did not consider his fascination with the dark arts to be a concerning factor.

The most telling thing for me about Lily's friendship with Snape is the period. The sheer amount of time they spent together, 27/7, 365 days in a year for over 6 years, cannot happen, if Lily was constantly and for "Years" making excuses for him.

The first question is why should she make excuses for him anyway? there is no obligation on both sides. If either Snape or Lily wanted to end the friendship, they were at perfect liberty to do so.

And Lily does not seem the long suffering type like Remus who put up with a lot from everybody, if only they'll accept him kinds. In fact Snape was more like that than Lily.

So if she was really cut up with Snape for a long time, then that friendship would not have stood for such a long time and neither would Snape be so much in love with her, if they were only arguing and Lily was only making excuses for for years.

So I concluded that Snape and Lily did have a good friendship, and Lily was okay with Snape's fascination with the dark arts as well. She did not like his friendship with Avery and Mulciber; she was always against it; she did not like Voldemort (DUH! naturally ) and she did not like Snape meeting with people who were openly planning to join Voldemort, but I don't think she was against his reading the dark arts (we don't see her aversion for the dark arts at all IMO).

And Snape IMO would have told her about dark arts in their early years of friendship (Sirius in GOF says that Snape knew so many curses when first came to school and at that time he was already best friends with Lily; I presume Lily knew about those curses as well, and curses are not minor spells, but specialized magic, which also could be the dark arts IMO).

The entire post is my opinion only.


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Last edited by The_Green_Woods; July 18th, 2008 at 1:17 pm.
  #66  
Old July 18th, 2008, 1:26 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Well since JKR said Lily might have been interested in Snape romantically had he not been attracted to the Dark Arts, I find it hard to believe she thought it was ok for Snape to be practicing the Dark Arts.


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  #67  
Old July 18th, 2008, 1:45 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
He was practicing the Dark Arts, espousing bigoted beliefs, hanging out with future DEs, aspiring to join Voldemort. Lily was not at fault here. What was surprising was that she hadn't given up on him sooner. Even without SWM, they would have stopped being friends because everything he was doing was contrary to her core beliefs.
Contrary beliefs are not Snape's fault. It's a circumstance. Severus couldn;t understand Lily's concerns and aversion, Lily couldn't understand why Severus should be attracted. There was miscommunication. In my opinion, it was much more complicated than it being entirely Severus's fault.


  #68  
Old July 18th, 2008, 2:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
He was practicing the Dark Arts, espousing bigoted beliefs, hanging out with future DEs, aspiring to join Voldemort. Lily was not at fault here. What was surprising was that she hadn't given up on him sooner. Even without SWM, they would have stopped being friends because everything he was doing was contrary to her core beliefs.
Well, those future DE were his Housemates and his "family" (McGonagall says in the first book that "your House will be your family" or something of the sort). I don't think he had the luxury of choosing with whom he should hang around with, given that he slept in the same dormitory with those future DEs.

As for the Dark Magic and Snape's wish to join Voldemort, no argument here. Although I'm not at all convinced that he truly wanted to join the DE because he was an "inherently evil bigot". JKR pointed out that he felt insecure and vulnerable and also wanted to impress Lily.

I still suspect that Lily would have given up on their friendship even if he hadn't been interested in the Dark Arts and had nothing to do with the Slytherins. Their relationship was doomed from the start, IMO, because they were fundamentally different.

Quote:
It was there in his tone.
I didn't notice any such thing in Sirius's tone. It's purely a matter of opinion, I think.
Quote:
Besides JKR has told us as much.
When?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Lily ended the friendship citing certain reasons, but I also feel from the SWM and the werewolf incident, that there were other reasons too for that break up, that had nothing to do with the reasons stated openly on page, but are still implied in the books IMO
.


Quote:
2) In the werewolf incident Snape was silly. He trusted a man who was his enemy and went down the tunnel. That makes him all kinds of foolish and silly IMO.
I don't think Snape trusted Black in that situation. He acted foolishly, no doubt, but I think one of his primary motivation was to prevent the Marauders from making fun of him the next morning. If he hadn't gone to the tunnel, James and Sirius would have probably ridiculed him for being a coward, IMO. And we all know how Snape reacts when he is called a coward.

Quote:
But that's for Snape. Lily was his friend, let me leave the "best" . Even as a friend, why even as a casual acquaintance she, I feel should have shown some concern at least for Snape.

He had gone into the tunnel and he could have been killed or bitten, both horrible prospects. If my friend had escaped narrowly from a great danger even if it was his own making, I know how I would react; that would nothing like Lily did IMO.

I would fall over my friend, ask him how he was and then I would give the shouting of a lifetime and tell him, he almost deserved to be bitten for following the words of an enemy of all people and demand a promise from him that he would use the brains he had been given never be so foolish ever again. In short I would be worried and frantic for my friend, even though he was silly enough to follow the words of a boy who was his enemy.

Even if he was not my best friend, I would still be concerned first and then tell him to be careful in the future.
I think exactly the same.

SWM also emphasizes the fact that Lily was at that point not particularly concerned with Snape's well-being. She came to his defense, of course, but she didn't take the curse off her friend and actually didn't pay him a lot of attention. It's like she came to defend him because she had to, out some sort of obligation, not because she really cared, IMO.

Quote:
3) The SWM is where they broke off. Lily by that time had moved so far away from Snape that Snape was sitting all by himself and Lily had made other friends, presumably Mary McDonald and others.
This is very important. At that time they are still friends, if I am not mistaken. Yet neither of them approached the other right after the exam to find out how they had done. Lily immediately left the Hall with a gang of girls, Snape wandered off alone.

Quote:
Lily broke off from Snape, but his place IMO was never filled. We don't see that in canon.
Well, we see that she was very friendly with Sirius. Probably, he was the one to have filled the void. Although Sirius himself rarely mentions Lily in his conversations with Harry. It's all about James all the time. So I agree with you. No mention of Lily's other friends in canon.

Quote:
4) The reason I feel Lily broke off with Snape when she did was to a very large extent because she fell in love with James, and Snape's friendship with the DEs.

Lily I think fell in love with James (and I do believe it was love not attraction or infatuation); I think she fought it, and her very conflicted feelings continued until she probably gave in and went out with James.
This is where I have to disagree because I see Lily's feelings for James at the moment of her break-up with Snape as nothing more than a superficial attraction. He was popular, attractive and he had been chasing her for quite some time, so naturally she found herself susceptible to his charms. But love... Lily and James didn't seem to have interacted with each other all that much at the moment, so I don't think true, genuine love could have come at that time.

Quote:
The werewolf incident is Lily appreciating James until Snape called her on it. Then she backed off, calling James and arrogant toerag. Lily's feelings came out in the werewolf incident, something Snape also noticed and was terribly jealous, but he also believed her when she called James names and went away;
I think Snape was extremely stupid and immature in that situation. That he didn't even listen to Lily when she expressed her concern makes me wonder if he ever loved her at all. He was certainly not interested in what she had to say. This speaks volumes.

Come to think of it, she was not particularly interested in what he had to say either. Yeah, I think their friendship was doomed.

Quote:
but I think their friendship continued to form huge cracks and break at all places and in the SWM, it was only a formality I felt; it was not a fight, trashing out issues and then ending the friendship, but it was like a dying man who finally breathed his last, much to the relief of one person and much to the dismay of the other.


Quote:
The most telling thing for me about Lily's friendship with Snape is the period. The sheer amount of time they spent together, 27/7, 365 days in a year for over 6 years, cannot happen, if Lily was constantly and for "Years" making excuses for him.
Yes, I think this is one of the few arguments in favour of their deep and sincere friendship.

Quote:
So if she was really cut up with Snape for a long time, then that friendship would not have stood for such a long time and neither would Snape be so much in love with her, if they were only arguing and Lily was only making excuses for for years.
I think Snape's feelings for Lily had more to do with his guilt and idealizing the memory of the dead than with actual love, but this is only IMO.

Quote:
So I concluded that Snape and Lily did have a good friendship, and Lily was okay with Snape's fascination with the dark arts as well. She did not like his friendship with Avery and Mulciber; she was always against it; she did not like Voldemort (DUH! naturally ) and she did not like Snape meeting with people who were openly planning to join Voldemort, but I don't think she was against his reading the dark arts (we don't see her aversion for the dark arts at all IMO).
Actually we do see her aversion for the Dark Arts. According to Lily, the most important difference between the Marauders' pranks and those of Mulciber and Avery is the fact that the Marauders do not use Dark Magic. So this makes them merely "toerags" whereas Snape's pals are "evil" and "creepy".



Last edited by Raelis; July 18th, 2008 at 3:22 pm.
  #69  
Old July 18th, 2008, 2:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Well since JKR said Lily might have been interested in Snape romantically had he not been attracted to the Dark Arts, I find it hard to believe she thought it was ok for Snape to be practicing the Dark Arts.
But Snape was not practising the dark arts. Lily never once says so. And JKR did not show it on page either IMO. Lily says she hates Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber, who were practising dark arts IMO. Her accusation is Snape is friends with Avery and Mulciber and she "knows" that Snape is going to join Voldemort after school. Not even that he has joined or that he plays tricks on Mary McDonald that was evil.

Sirius (GOF) says Snape came to School knowing more curses than half the 7th years. That is an abnormal amount of magic for a 11 year old to know. I assumed from that Snape was fascinated by the dark arts from day one. And naturally he would have told Lily about it, because he did not at that time think he would need to hide it from her, anymore than he thought that telling Lily, a muggleborn to be sorted into Slytherin should be avoided, that there was a chance she would face a lot of prejudice IMO. In fact he wanted Lily desperately there, because he thought that was the best House. Likewise too, I think he must have told her about the magics he thought were good, bad and ugly IMO.

Lily once she came to School, would have known in her first year itself about "Evil Slytherin" and how they were all into the "Dark Arts" IMO.

The friendship did not break in year 1, 2, 3 and 4. So I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.


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  #70  
Old July 18th, 2008, 2:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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where does it say lily was intrestied in james before her and snapes falling out ? as a matter of fact I think she referred to him as a toerag .
It is not unheard of boys (or girls) saying things of that sort about someone they are interested in, before a relationship develops, or when sucha developmemt seems unlikely.

If you care, Rowling hinted as much in an interview.


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  #71  
Old July 18th, 2008, 3:36 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But Snape was not practising the dark arts. Lily never once says so. And JKR did not show it on page either IMO. Lily says she hates Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber, who were practising dark arts IMO. Her accusation is Snape is friends with Avery and Mulciber and she "knows" that Snape is going to join Voldemort after school. Not even that he has joined or that he plays tricks on Mary McDonald that was evil.

Sirius (GOF) says Snape came to School knowing more curses than half the 7th years. That is an abnormal amount of magic for a 11 year old to know. I assumed from that Snape was fascinated by the dark arts from day one. And naturally he would have told Lily about it, because he did not at that time think he would need to hide it from her, anymore than he thought that telling Lily, a muggleborn to be sorted into Slytherin should be avoided, that there was a chance she would face a lot of prejudice IMO. In fact he wanted Lily desperately there, because he thought that was the best House. Likewise too, I think he must have told her about the magics he thought were good, bad and ugly IMO.

Lily once she came to School, would have known in her first year itself about "Evil Slytherin" and how they were all into the "Dark Arts" IMO.

The friendship did not break in year 1, 2, 3 and 4. So I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.
I respect your view, but that is not the reasoning JKR appeared to follow.

Snape liked the dark arts; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked the dark arts.
Snape liked Mulciber; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked Mulciber.
Lily was casually friendly with James, Snape was her friend, thus Snape was casually friendly with James.

See the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
What difference does it make if he was physically unharmed or not? If Lily were a loyal friend, she would have been concerned anyway, considering that her "best friend" had almost got himself killed. She seemed totally indifferent to the fact, IMO. I cannot imagine Hermione acting the same way.
I respect your view, but seeing as we came in on the middle of the conversation, how do you know Lily did not ask Snape if he was all right earlier on in their discussion? In fact, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that was the first thing that she would ask?


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 18th, 2008 at 3:59 pm.
  #72  
Old July 18th, 2008, 3:39 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
The friendship did not break in year 1, 2, 3 and 4. So I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.
Or perhaps she didn't like it at all, but was trying to influence him to stop. JKR did tell us that it was his attraction to the Dark Arts that Lily didn't like. And had he not been so inclined, Lily might (and this is a conditional what if) have been attracted to him romantically.

We do know he created a dark curse, Sectumsempra, so he was actively dabbling. Snape, himself, called it Dark Magic. And we were told in DH that George's ear wouldn't heal because it was a Dark Curse.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; July 19th, 2008 at 7:04 am.
  #73  
Old July 18th, 2008, 6:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm
We do know he created a dark curse, Sectumsempra, so he was actively dabbling. Snape, himself, called it a Dark Magic. And we were told in DH that George's ear wouldn't heal because it was a Dark Curse.
I don't believe that Snape actually created Sectumsempra, but merely used it. Harry says as such after Hermione criticizes it; something to the effect of, "The Prince wasn't saying this was a really good curse; for all we know, he could've just been making note of something that had been used against him." Snape did create the Levicorpus spell, and Harry says that in the place where the Prince wrote it, there were lots of crossings-out and scribbles. Where Harry found Sectumsempra, all he found written there was "For Enemies". I don't think any of the spells that Snape created can be considered Dark Magic-- they're all just minor hexes and jinxes, IIRC. However, I do think that he must have used Dark Spells during his time at Hogwarts, though-- In Deathly Hallows, Lupin says that Sectumsempra was "a favorite" of Snape's-- how would Lupin know this unless he had seen Snape use it several times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green Woods
I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.
For me, Lily and Snape's relationship during their first few years at Hogwarts is comparable to Dumbledore and Grindelwald's relationship during Grindelwald's rise to power. Both Lily and Dumbledore recognize that what their friend is straying down a dark path, but because of their affection (romantic or otherwise) for him, cannot bring themselves to do anything about it. I don't think that either Dumbledore or Lily, at the time, supported the Dark Arts and what their best friend was doing, but they turned a blind eye, even as those all around them whispered of the danger. (Lily says that she's been "making excuses for years", just as Dumbledore had done for Grindelwald.) But ultimately, they realized that this problem wasn't going to go away; they had to do something about it. They each confronted their friend, and even though they cared deeply for that person, both Lily and Dumbledore recognized that this was a problem that needed to be taken care of.


  #74  
Old July 18th, 2008, 8:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view, but that is not the reasoning JKR appeared to follow.

Snape liked the dark arts; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked the dark arts.
Snape liked Mulciber; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked Mulciber.
Lily was casually friendly with James, Snape was her friend, thus Snape was casually friendly with James.

See the problem?
Exactly. That type of circular logic generally falls apart because it fails to take in the complexity of the human mind, IMO. We are shown on page that Lily did not like or approve of the Dark Arts - she says herself that what Avery and Mulciber did was evil. This was a point of contention between Snape and Lily - I think that the memories Harry viewed clearly showed that to be an ongoing issue between them.

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I respect your view, but seeing as we came in on the middle of the conversation, how do you know Lily did not ask Snape if he was all right earlier on in their discussion? In fact, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that was the first thing that she would ask?
I agree. I think it is clear that Snape is all right - he has no injuries. And this is a few days after that incident. The time for asking if he was all right was the night that it happened or the next day. We weren't shown the werewolf incident or anything that happened immediately after. We only see what happened a few days later - well after it had been ascertained that Snape was all right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Or perhaps she didn't like it at all, but was trying to influence him to stop. JKR did tell us that it was his attraction to the Dark Arts that Lily didn't like. And had he not been so inclined, Lily might (and this is a conditional what if) have been attracted to him romantically.

We do know he created a dark curse, Sectumsempra, so he was actively dabbling. Snape, himself, called it a Dark Magic. And we were told in DH that George's ear wouldn't heal because it was a Dark Curse.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by starchica View Post
I don't believe that Snape actually created Sectumsempra, but merely used it. Harry says as such after Hermione criticizes it; something to the effect of, "The Prince wasn't saying this was a really good curse; for all we know, he could've just been making note of something that had been used against him." Snape did create the Levicorpus spell, and Harry says that in the place where the Prince wrote it, there were lots of crossings-out and scribbles. Where Harry found Sectumsempra, all he found written there was "For Enemies". I don't think any of the spells that Snape created can be considered Dark Magic-- they're all just minor hexes and jinxes, IIRC. However, I do think that he must have used Dark Spells during his time at Hogwarts, though-- In Deathly Hallows, Lupin says that Sectumsempra was "a favorite" of Snape's-- how would Lupin know this unless he had seen Snape use it several times?
Snape admitted that he had invented the spells in the potions book at the end of HBP - specifically, Sectumsempra and Levicorpus. Those were the two spells that Harry tried to use against him - at which point, Snape went into a rage because Harry was trying to use his own spells against him.

HBPSectum — !”

Snape flicked his wand and the curse was repelled yet again; but Harry was mere feet away now and he could see Snape’s face clearly at last: He was no longer sneering or jeering; the blazing flames showed a face full of rage. Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought, Levi

“No, Potter!” screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backward, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand. He could hear Hagrid yelling and Fang howling as Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless and defenseless as Dumbledore had been. Snape’s pale face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore.

“You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them — I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you’d turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don’t think so … no!”


Snape is specifically referring to Sectumsempra and Levicorpus - the spells that Harry had just tried to use against him. So he did create Sectumsempra as well as use it extensively enough for people to consider it his "specialty" - as Lupin points out in DH. Snape also defines Sectumsempra as Dark Magic after Harry used it against Malfoy and Molly Weasley confirmed that in DH - she couldn't make George's ear grow back because it had been cursed off with Dark Magic.

Other than that, I agree with you. Snape was famous for his fascination with the Dark Arts at school and he knew more curses in his first year than half the seventh years - both stated directly on page. IMO, he wouldn't have been famous for it if he wasn't actually using those curses against others - which demonstrated his love for the Dark Arts. Eventually, Sectumsempra became known as his "specialty" - again, it wouldn't be considered his specialty if he hadn't been using it against people, IMO.

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For me, Lily and Snape's relationship during their first few years at Hogwarts is comparable to Dumbledore and Grindelwald's relationship during Grindelwald's rise to power. Both Lily and Dumbledore recognize that what their friend is straying down a dark path, but because of their affection (romantic or otherwise) for him, cannot bring themselves to do anything about it. I don't think that either Dumbledore or Lily, at the time, supported the Dark Arts and what their best friend was doing, but they turned a blind eye, even as those all around them whispered of the danger. (Lily says that she's been "making excuses for years", just as Dumbledore had done for Grindelwald.) But ultimately, they realized that this problem wasn't going to go away; they had to do something about it. They each confronted their friend, and even though they cared deeply for that person, both Lily and Dumbledore recognized that this was a problem that needed to be taken care of.
I agree. It is an interesting parallel and Dumbledore does give some insight as to what Lily went through with that whole situation with Snape. She knew in her heart that Snape was heading down a very dark path, but she didn't want to admit it or believe it so she made excuses for him for years - which she admits when she finally ends the friendship. The incident with SWM is what finally opens her eyes - she can't lie to herself anymore - she can't pretend anymore. It's a very difficult situation for her, but she really didn't have any other choice, IMO. There comes a point when you have to put what's best for you first and get yourself out of a bad situation. The only thing I would fault Lily for is that it took her so long to come to her senses and stop pretending - though I think her youth and naivete have to be taken into consideration as well so I don't fault her too much for that. It was an important lesson for her.

Dumbledore was in a very similar situation with Grindelwald, but he wasn't able to make that decision himself and the result was the death of his sister. I find the parallel interesting because, as powerful as Dumbledore was, he wasn't strong enough emotionally to get himself out of that bad situation before such a horrible tragedy occurred. And he never really recovered from that - spending the rest of his life alone, never finding love again. I think it says a lot about Lily that she was strong enough emotionally to remove herself from such a bad situation before a horrible tragedy occurred and she was able to move on and put it behind her - eventually falling in love and having a happy life.


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  #75  
Old July 19th, 2008, 11:02 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
And we all know how Snape reacts when he is called a coward.
LOL we do!

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SWM also emphasises the fact that Lily was at that point not particularly concerned with Snape's well-being. She came to his defence, of course, but she didn't take the curse off her friend and actually didn't pay him a lot of attention. It's like she came to defend him because she had to, out some sort of obligation, not because she really cared, IMO.
At that time, the friendship was practically over. Lily came to Snape's defence, but was it actually a defence? It was more of shouting at James and trying to tell him that he'd better behave and get his swollen head reduced or some such thing, which was almost directions and practical hints LOL to James, if he ever wanted to go out with Lily IMO.

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This is very important. At that time they are still friends, if I am not mistaken. Yet neither of them approached the other right after the exam to find out how they had done. Lily immediately left the Hall with a gang of girls, Snape wandered off alone.
At this time they were not friends I feel, only they had not broken off formally, which Lily did that night IMO.

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Well, we see that she was very friendly with Sirius. Probably, he was the one to have filled the void. Although Sirius himself rarely mentions Lily in his conversations with Harry. It's all about James all the time. So I agree with you. No mention of Lily's other friends in canon.
Yes, she was, but I don't think anyone took Snape's place, another indication that she was also really and truly into the friendship and that even though she broke off, and it was her choice, I think she felt Snape to be a friend she could not replace in her life. There were no best friends for Lily after Snape IMO.

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This is where I have to disagree because I see Lily's feelings for James at the moment of her break-up with Snape as nothing more than a superficial attraction. He was popular, attractive and he had been chasing her for quite some time, so naturally she found herself susceptible to his charms. But love... Lily and James didn't seem to have interacted with each other all that much at the moment, so I don't think true, genuine love could have come at that time.
I actually saw it like Hermione's very genuine affection for Ron; in Hermione's case it was Ron's immaturity that was the problem, here Lily holds in her genuine affection for James, until she is sure he had "changed". I don't know if he did, I actually do not not think he did, but Lily apparently thought he did, perhaps because like Sirius said, they never took Snape on dates and hexed him in front of her, and so Lily never knew about it; perhaps they never hexed also in front of Lily, and so she never knew about the Marauders hexing others as well IMO.

James already had fallen for Lily, and I think Lily reciprocated his feelings only refused to act on it.

Now I think the reasons are slightly more personal and complicated than what is given on page. This is of course only my understanding of what I feel about the gap.

The war between James, Sirius and Snape IMO was going on for quite some time. Now when Lily was friends with Snape, she would have naturally taken his side against James & Co., and after she broke off, perhaps she was waiting until James would stop fighting with Snape for her to agree to go out with him.

Like James's saving of Snape, which Lily appreciated so much because James was saving a boy who was his enemy. Like wise I think she held out until James stopped hexing Snape and when she was sure that happened, she gave in and went out with james IMO.

Of course we know that Snape was a special case, but we also know that Lily did not know about it. So that's my theory about it.

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I think Snape's feelings for Lily had more to do with his guilt and idealising the memory of the dead than with actual love, but this is only IMO.
His love, guilt and shame all played a part IMO.

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Actually we do see her aversion for the Dark Arts. According to Lily, the most important difference between the Marauders' pranks and those of Mulciber and Avery is the fact that the Marauders do not use Dark Magic. So this makes them merely "toerags" whereas Snape's pals are "evil" and "creepy".
This still means that Lily did not like the practise of dark magic, she never accuses Snape of practising it; she dislikes him hanging out with those who do IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view, but that is not the reasoning JKR appeared to follow.

Snape liked the dark arts; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked the dark arts.
Snape liked Mulciber; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked Mulciber.
Lily was casually friendly with James, Snape was her friend, thus Snape was casually friendly with James.

See the problem?
I did not mean it like this at all.

Quote:
I respect your view, but seeing as we came in on the middle of the conversation, how do you know Lily did not ask Snape if he was all right earlier on in their discussion? In fact, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that was the first thing that she would ask?
Because Lily starts about the werewolf incident only after we cam in. She says something like "And you are really ungrateful; I know what happened that night and Potter saved you....." (not the exact words)

What happened that night in the werewolf memory was discussed only after we came in.

And the words "the other night" IMO means that the werewolf incident happened sometime ago, and Snape was keeping his promise of not telling anyone, but Lily apparently knew from somewhere else. Now, even after she knew that Snape had been saved from a danger that could have killed him, she never seeks him out and asks him if he was alright. That is another thing that tells me Lily was certainly not a good friend from around that time IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Or perhaps she didn't like it at all, but was trying to influence him to stop.
But for how long? The period of their friendship seems abnormally wrong for 2 persons one who loves the other friend and the other who is trying to help. But help for how long? And if Lily wanted to really help a friend in need, I think she should have hung around when Snape needed her the most and that was right when she broke off her friendship actually IMO.

The entire post is my opinion only.


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  #76  
Old July 19th, 2008, 11:05 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
At that time, the friendship was practically over. Lily came to Snape's defence, but was it actually a defence? It was more of shouting at James and trying to tell him that he'd better behave and get his swollen head reduced or some such thing, which was almost directions and practical hints LOL to James, if he ever wanted to go out with Lily IMO.
What could she have been expected to do--start a hex fight with James and Sirius? Shoot first and ask questions later? She did what would be expected--try to get them to stop. And then Snape insulted her with the worst insult possible, while she was trying to help him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But for how long? The period of their friendship seems abnormally wrong for 2 persons one who loves the other friend and the other who is trying to help. But help for how long? And if Lily wanted to really help a friend in need, I think she should have hung around when Snape needed her the most and that was right when she broke off her friendship actually IMO.
They were friends for five or six years. How long was she supposed to put with it? Again, this seems to blame Lily for Snape's bad choices.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; July 19th, 2008 at 11:16 am.
  #77  
Old July 19th, 2008, 11:30 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I did not mean it like this at all.
Oh, I misinterpreted your words then. What did you mean? You know there used to be a theory that Lily was a Death Eater. JKR addressed this question on her website: Was Lily a Death Eater? Her only response was: "How Dare You!"

Quote:
Because Lily starts about the werewolf incident only after we cam in. She says something like "And you are really ungrateful; I know what happened that night and Potter saved you....." (not the exact words)
I agree, however, I had forgotten it had happened sometime before. If he is sitting there looking and acting just fine, why would she ask him if he was okay? She knew that James saved him from harm and that all that happened was that he saw whatever was down there. Nonetheless, I agree with your conclusion. I too feel the relationship had been on the rocks for a long time prior to that conversation.

Quote:
But for how long? The period of their friendship seems abnormally wrong for 2 persons one who loves the other friend and the other who is trying to help. But help for how long? And if Lily wanted to really help a friend in need, I think she should have hung around when Snape needed her the most and that was right when she broke off her friendship actually IMO.
I respect your view, but I felt like she had remained friends believing she could help. When she ended the friendship, I think she felt Snape was beyond her help. In SWM, his friends were not influencing him to call her a Filthy Little Mudblood and to use a dark curse; he did those things of his own accord and I think she had to admit to herself that he wasn't just influenced by Mulciber and Avery, but rather, he was behaving just like them and shared their beliefs. Those were the things she accused him of in the end - blood prejudice and his desire to become a Death Eater - basically being on the dark path (you have chosen your path and I've chosen mine").


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am.
  #78  
Old July 19th, 2008, 11:46 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

And all I'm seeing are suggestions that by staying around that long it indicated that she approved of his actions, or, conversely, that she didn't try hard enough or stay around long enough. Neither are fair to Lily since it was Snape making the mistakes.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; July 26th, 2008 at 7:29 am.
  #79  
Old July 19th, 2008, 4:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
And all I'm seeing are suggustions that by staying around that long it indicated that she approved of his actions, or, conversely, it meant that she didn't try hard enough. Neither are fair to Lily since it was Snape making the mistakes.
Couldn't agree more.


  #80  
Old July 26th, 2008, 4:09 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
And all I'm seeing are suggustions that by staying around it long indicated that she approved of his actions, or, conversely, that she didn't try hard enough or stay around long enough. Neither are fair to Lily since it was Snape making the mistakes.
I would have to agree. We learned a lot about young Snape and I think it helped to show the difficulties that Lily faced and why she felt she had to pretend and make excuses as she said in DH -TPT. According to Sirius Snape came in knowing more curses than some 7th years, and Lily didn't consider their friendship moving into other channels becaue of Snape's interest in dark arts and acts according to JKR. In OOTP in my opinion, we saw Snape elect to use a dark curse (modulated form of Sectumsempra) and he called Lily a Mudblood and we found he hexed James at every opportunity in 7th. The latter was not said in such a way to make it seem as though that was something new and that matches what Dumbledore said about the situation being like what it was between Harry and Draco. In HBP we learned that the spell James used was invented by Snape, which had to have been introduced to someone by Snape, the inventor. and I feel it is reasonable that Snape and his friends were he first to use the spell on others. Also, after HBP, I thought that the Spell Snape used in OOTP was so controlled, he must have used it quite often. This I felt was confirmed in DH when Lupin said it was Snape's favorite. Then in DH, we found that Snape finds it just a laugh when others are being bullied with Dark Magic by his friends and he confirmed Lupin and Sirius' earlier assertion that he'd been following the Mauraders around, potentially to get them expelled. I felt that Sirius' assertion that Snape was up to his ears in the dark arts also telling in that it appeared to be as well known about him as it was about Mulciber and Avery, his friends. That was another thing confirmed in DH - Snape had friends apart from Lily. Finally in DH we learn that Snape was highly jealous of James, aimo.

So I believe Lily was making a lot of excuses and pretending that Snape was the friend she knew - not the person who was the Mulciber and Avery and participated in the things they did like calling others Mudblood. I feel she convinced herself that Snape's behavior in that regard was totally a result of their influence. I believe that would make Lily's life difficult - and that is apart from the fact that they were in rival houses. That is not to say that Snape had no difficulties associated with his friendship, but just considering Lily's point of view. I feel that JKR has made it plain that Lily was opposed to all dark interests that were not associated with the defensive and so I feel she would find the friendship very troublesome. In the end, she ended the friendship giving us still more information; that Snape had been calling others Mudblood and that Lily had suspected Snape was planning to join Voldemort with his friends. In my judgment, it was Snape's actions and behaivor which allowed her to reach that conclusion. So I would agree that she did not approve of his dark interests and acts or his taking a blood purist stance; and I also feel she gave it a very good go, perhaps a bit too long for her personal mental welfare, but I believe she made a very good attempt at the friendship while trying to help Snape see the light.


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